FIRE EVERYONE!

[tdub]

I’ll say this.

After these two losses, this team more than knows what they need to do to win. They know where they’re weak. They know what mistakes to fix, and the mistakes that were made are for the most part, easy to fix. I would much rather have this loss now, than later. Now they have the entire season to fix and improve, and they will. The coaches here have been good, despite what many think. The talent is good. Young, but good. I feel bad for what San Diego is about to get thrown at them.

No doubt! I personally think we run the table at least until the brawl. Hopefully after.

Really? What makes you think that?

I know you asked him, but to me the answer is that no one on the schedule is as good as SDSU (#2 ranked). And the Cats lost is double OT after playing a pretty sloppy game. So running the table is very much a possibility.

[catzz]

There was a question making the rounds when Sterbick was hired to the effect of “Your teams have been throwing the ball a lot, but MSU is most usually among the top rushing teams, if not #1. Do you run your system, or do you adapt to what the players bring.” In the video interview he said that he could/would adapt to the tools that were available. Some of us reported feeling better after that.

That did not look like the #1 rushing team in the nation.

The rushing attack was inept, random and very inconsistent. There was no compliment between the rush and pass as at. No flow or rhythm.

With South Dakota State being so much better than us. How would you rate their play calling? If you were a fan of SDSU and they had lost last night, which they almost did… What would you say about them going 1-15 or whatever it was on 3rd down. My goodness you would lose your mind! Last night was two incredible teams going to war against each other in the trenches. Last October NDSU beat SDSU 13-9. Man they should have crucified both OC’s after that one. You would have had a heart attack with those inept offenses. Good football is good football. I saw a hell of a lot of good football last night. We have some things to clean up and the o-line obviously being one.

Jacked for the rest of the year. All the Larens out there should get there 350 yards of rushing the rest of the month and be happy.

This isn’t a response to any particular poster, just general towards the majority of posts today. Good time to be a Bobcat!

[TomCat88]

Well, yes. Tom specifically said the top tier of FCS football is NDSU, SDSU and MSU. He’s said it a bunch over the last few seasons and I’ve disagreed every time. We’re a great program. Have made championship games. On a great run and I think we’re in for another great season. I’ve never said otherwise.

All I have EVER said is that until we BEAT those teams, and not just once in 5 or more tries, I don’t believe we’re in that tier. I’m surprised it’s a debate but it is. I’d put those two at the top, us and a few others in the tier below them, then everyone else.

But yes, some have most certainly said we’re just as good as those teams and you either missed the many posts, or are just trying to argue to argue which I feel like you do with me for whatever reason.

I felt MSU pulled even with the DSUs in 2023. I still think so. They've played four times and lost all four. That doesn't mean that they aren't as good. Just like when they beat teams that are better than them, it doesn't make them better. The Cats have beaten teams that are better than them lots of times. I didn't think MSU was better than Colorado or worse than Chadron or UC Davis or EWU in 2006. I don't think when teams tie that they are therefore even.

The Twins weren't as good as Detroit or St. Louis in 1987 but they beat both and won the World Series. That's my favorite team. I celebrated for years after that, but winning the World Series didn't mean they were the better team. It just meant they won the WS and that's what you play the game for.

They have playoffs to determine a champion, not to determine who the best team is. Sometimes the best or arguably the best team wins the championship, but not always.

This is where I'm coming from.

[grizzh8r]

All just semantics at this point. I don’t care what people call it. If people wanna say we’re as good as the dakotas so be it. Hell, they can say we’re better than the chiefs and eagles too. It’s all talk. Nothing matters but wins and losses and we haven’t shown we can win. Are we good enough to win? Probably. But we don’t so who cares.

Many of the games during the streak we were good enough to win. Who cares? In the end I could have said we were right there with the griz. But they had a decade and a half of wins so I’m sure they really didn’t care if some of us thought we were right there with them. Until we actually start beating the Dakotas, I can’t imagine they or anyone else really cares if we say we’re “right there” with them.

I would argue that it’s not semantics but coping and delusion that leads people to believe that it is acceptable to lose games to teams that are allegedly peers. “Right there” with the Dakota schools doesn’t mean squat until it results in a victory.

No one thinks it’s acceptable to lose. But crying and giving is unacceptable. Just go to the next game.

You’re right we have to go to the next game. However, you didn’t finish the sentence. The rest of the sentence is: Go to the next game with things to fix and problems that need to be addressed. I see coaching as a problem and needs to be addressed. These problems have been here since Vigen took the job and at some point it has to be his fault that they’re not getting fixed. We’ve had multiple coordinators, multiple rosters. And yet the problem persists, at some point it’s his fault.

Holy crap, you sound like my emotionally immature 7 year old who always thinks it's "someone else's fault!" And "it's not fair!". Give it up, man. It's a freaking game. The MSU Football team doesn't owe you Jack.

[nanacat]

Herder's take on the game.
https://herosports.com/fcs-football-sds ... wins-bzbz/

[ilovethecats]

Well, yes. Tom specifically said the top tier of FCS football is NDSU, SDSU and MSU. He’s said it a bunch over the last few seasons and I’ve disagreed every time. We’re a great program. Have made championship games. On a great run and I think we’re in for another great season. I’ve never said otherwise.

All I have EVER said is that until we BEAT those teams, and not just once in 5 or more tries, I don’t believe we’re in that tier. I’m surprised it’s a debate but it is. I’d put those two at the top, us and a few others in the tier below them, then everyone else.

But yes, some have most certainly said we’re just as good as those teams and you either missed the many posts, or are just trying to argue to argue which I feel like you do with me for whatever reason.

I felt MSU pulled even with the DSUs in 2023. I still think so. They've played four times and lost all four. That doesn't mean that they aren't as good. Just like when they beat teams that are better than them, it doesn't make them better. The Cats have beaten teams that are better than them lots of times. I didn't think MSU was better than Colorado or worse than Chadron or UC Davis or EWU in 2006. I don't think when teams tie that they are therefore even.

The Twins weren't as good as Detroit or St. Louis in 1987 but they beat both and won the World Series. That's my favorite team. I celebrated for years after that, but winning the World Series didn't mean they were the better team. It just meant they won the WS and that's what you play the game for.

They have playoffs to determine a champion, not to determine who the best team is. Sometimes the best or arguably the best team wins the championship, but not always.

This is where I'm coming from.

I get it Tom. And I’m also a lifelong Twins fan from Minnesota. I’m not suggesting in sports sometimes the better team never loses. I’m agreeing with you that the Cats are very good. I love that we compete with the Dakotas. But at some point winning has to matter. What if the two of them combine to beat us another 5 straight? Even if the games are all uber competitive winning has to mean something and we haven’t shown we can do that.

And this is coming from a guy that thinks we’re an amazing program with the tools to win the whole thing. But gotta start showing we can actually beat those guys

[TomCat88]

Well, yes. Tom specifically said the top tier of FCS football is NDSU, SDSU and MSU. He’s said it a bunch over the last few seasons and I’ve disagreed every time. We’re a great program. Have made championship games. On a great run and I think we’re in for another great season. I’ve never said otherwise.

All I have EVER said is that until we BEAT those teams, and not just once in 5 or more tries, I don’t believe we’re in that tier. I’m surprised it’s a debate but it is. I’d put those two at the top, us and a few others in the tier below them, then everyone else.

But yes, some have most certainly said we’re just as good as those teams and you either missed the many posts, or are just trying to argue to argue which I feel like you do with me for whatever reason.

I felt MSU pulled even with the DSUs in 2023. I still think so. They've played four times and lost all four. That doesn't mean that they aren't as good. Just like when they beat teams that are better than them, it doesn't make them better. The Cats have beaten teams that are better than them lots of times. I didn't think MSU was better than Colorado or worse than Chadron or UC Davis or EWU in 2006. I don't think when teams tie that they are therefore even.

The Twins weren't as good as Detroit or St. Louis in 1987 but they beat both and won the World Series. That's my favorite team. I celebrated for years after that, but winning the World Series didn't mean they were the better team. It just meant they won the WS and that's what you play the game for.

They have playoffs to determine a champion, not to determine who the best team is. Sometimes the best or arguably the best team wins the championship, but not always.

This is where I'm coming from.

I get it Tom. And I’m also a lifelong Twins fan from Minnesota. I’m not suggesting in sports sometimes the better team never loses. I’m agreeing with you that the Cats are very good. I love that we compete with the Dakotas. But at some point winning has to matter. What if the two of them combine to beat us another 5 straight? Even if the games are all uber competitive winning has to mean something and we haven’t shown we can do that.

And this is coming from a guy that thinks we’re an amazing program with the tools to win the whole thing. But gotta start showing we can actually beat those guys

Let me put it another way, just to make sure no one thinks I'm homering this: if the Cats do beat the Jacks or Bison next time they play, I'm not going to think the Cats are the better team. I probably wouldn't think they were even if they beat them by a couple touchdowns. I'd still consider them even. If the Cats start losing to them by a lot or start losing to lots of teams, then I'll think the Cats aren't as good; if they're winning by a lot or the others tail off, then vice versa.

[RKMCMT]

And this is coming from a guy that thinks we’re an amazing program with the tools to win the whole thing. But gotta start showing we can actually beat those guys

We obviously can beat them. Maybe should have. Players can only learn game to game though. Coordinators as well.

Seems like a lot of trying to relive what we were last year with different players and different talents.

Lamson's not the RPO threat Tommy was. Virtually nobody was going to be. We've gotta figure that out. Still doesn't seem like we have.

Then again Lamson's gotta pull the trigger on pushing the ball downfield to help us get over that past.

[Cataholic]

I’ll say this.

After these two losses, this team more than knows what they need to do to win. They know where they’re weak. They know what mistakes to fix, and the mistakes that were made are for the most part, easy to fix. I would much rather have this loss now, than later. Now they have the entire season to fix and improve, and they will. The coaches here have been good, despite what many think. The talent is good. Young, but good. I feel bad for what San Diego is about to get thrown at them.

Good post!!

[Cataholic]

There was a question making the rounds when Sterbick was hired to the effect of “Your teams have been throwing the ball a lot, but MSU is most usually among the top rushing teams, if not #1. Do you run your system, or do you adapt to what the players bring.” In the video interview he said that he could/would adapt to the tools that were available. Some of us reported feeling better after that.

That did not look like the #1 rushing team in the nation.

The rushing attack was inept, random and very inconsistent. There was no compliment between the rush and pass as at. No flow or rhythm.

With South Dakota State being so much better than us. How would you rate their play calling? If you were a fan of SDSU and they had lost last night, which they almost did… What would you say about them going 1-15 or whatever it was on 3rd down. My goodness you would lose your mind! Last night was two incredible teams going to war against each other in the trenches. Last October NDSU beat SDSU 13-9. Man they should have crucified both OC’s after that one. You would have had a heart attack with those inept offenses. Good football is good football. I saw a hell of a lot of good football last night. We have some things to clean up and the o-line obviously being one.

Jacked for the rest of the year. All the Larens out there should get there 350 yards of rushing the rest of the month and be happy.

This isn’t a response to any particular poster, just general towards the majority of posts today. Good time to be a Bobcat!

Another really good post!

[Cataholic]

Herder's take on the game.
https://herosports.com/fcs-football-sds ... wins-bzbz/

According to Herder:

Despite the record, MSU looks like a title contender with its performance vs. SDSU. But similar to the Jacks, there is plenty to clean up.

[HelenaCat]

In years past I would be fuming on the way home to Helena about incompetence or poor coaching or players that are not competing. We have enjoyed the last 4 years of the best teams we have ever had at MSU including the championship years (because of how players have been getting better and better).

Last night didn't even bother me. I enjoyed the game immensely. I was disappointed at the fumbles, but the game was fabulous!

SDSU is a great team. That will be proven later on in this year. Vigen has given us some of the best fan experience of my 76 years. That started in 1966 with Jim Sweeney, Dennis Erickson, Jan Stenerud and Don Hass. Just look at the attendance. You are crazy to question our coach. He feels worse than you that the game went as it did. Do you think his coaching made us fumble or kept us from scoring touchdown like Tommy did? Thank the Bobcat gods for Brent Vigen!

Well said!! From a 70 year old fan.

[Cataholic]

If you lose every coin flip game, maybe it's not a coin flip? At some point the randomness isn't randomness. There's nothing wrong with admitting that we're still a half step behind the DSUs. How often do they lose close games at home against teams that some consider are comparable opponents? Just because we should have won the last two home games doesn't mean that we are at their level and a few things broke the wrong way. I still think we'll get there, as long as Vigen is here, but we're not quite there yet. Real close though.

If you lose a game because the replay crew ignores the rule about overturning the call on the field, yeah, its actually random.

Give NDSU credit for the blocked point & give SDSU credit for the OT win. And, yeah, you are right...if NDSU & SDSU consistently make those plays in OT, maybe they are slightly aghead. But the difference is pretty slight.

Its not as though the sky is falling here.

I’m only speaking for myself here as people tend to get pretty extreme both ways.

We’ve known for over a year the possibility of starting this season 0-2. Two very good teams to face out of the gate. I still believe the Cats are very good and I think we can run the table at least till the brawl. I think we can get a seed.

I’m just very very tired of losing to the Dakotas. Sure the games are fun. That’s great. I love competitive games. But when it comes to the sports teams that I personally root for and in the case of the Cats invest in; I want them to WIN. I’m so tired of hearing that we’re right there with the Dakotas simply because we can compete with them. I love that we can compete. Love that they no longer dominate us. But so tired of playing these guys, thinking we can win, but expecting to probably lose, and then act like I’m super happy that we competed well. It just doesn’t mean anything.

Tom used a mogul skiing analogy earlier. And I agree that if you’re a good skier and lose a few races you don’t sell your skis. You find a way to get better. I’m not advocating the Cats do anything extreme. I love that we’re very good and I love our head coach. But that skiing example isn’t really what is happening with our football program so it was kinda apples and oranges to me.

What if there were 3 skiers, Tom, Jim and John. Tom’s a decent skier but not as good as Jim and John. In fact, John used to absolutely crush Tom but as of lately he still wins, but Tom is at least competitive. Jim kinda came out of nowhere and he always beats Tom almost every race and even beats John.

Tom’s mother loves Tom very much and tells all her friends that of all the skiers around, no one is better than her son. If anything Jim and John are equally as good as Tom, but not better. Despite the fact that every time they have raced, Jim and John have beat Tom every time but once!

I’d be more inclined to agree with Tom’s mother if Tom started beating Jim and John; and not just being really close to beating them or perhaps beating them if only a few more things would or wouldn’t have happened.

Yeah, no one is telling anyone that the Cats are better than the DSUs. If this were a track meet & one of the two DSUs beat the Cats by a tenth of a second every single time, no one would freak out because the Cats kept winning bronze or silver.

To take the skiing analogy a little further: Say your daughter was consistently on the podium with Lindsay Vonn & Mikala Schifferin....but family members complained constantly about "only" consistently winning second and third.

You'd tell them where to shove it.

And then your kid would get back to the grind & figure out what details to change to try to bump that one last spot & finish first instead of second.

You sure wouldn't fire coaches or techs or act like the sky was falling.

I’d never call for a coaches firing anyway. I love our coaching and love our program. What I disagree with is the notion that there is a TOP tier that includes NDSU, SDSU, and MSU. But I guess that depends on how you view sports. For me winning championships is the Mecca of success. But you’ll never hear me suggest we’re bad or not a good program because we’re not winning championships. We are a very good program and right there to hopefully win championships soon. But being competitive doesn’t put us in the same tier. Beating those guys does.

So if my daughter was a skier in your scenario, I’d be super proud of her. I’d believe she was good enough to some day beat those other girls. I’d be proud of her accomplishments and always supportive. But if they were constantly winning gold, and she never did, I certainly wouldn’t be telling people she’s just as good…….

Has anyone said the Cats are 'just as good' as the DSUs?

Or have they said that the Cats were on the losing end of bunch of coin flip games?

This (and other) threads are in the realm of 'Vigen is terrible', the Cats will be lucky to make the playoffs, the Cats cant compete with the DSUs, etc.

Its pretty bonkers when the Cats are clearly competing, just not coming up with the win.

Well, yes. Tom specifically said the top tier of FCS football is NDSU, SDSU and MSU. He’s said it a bunch over the last few seasons and I’ve disagreed every time. We’re a great program. Have made championship games. On a great run and I think we’re in for another great season. I’ve never said otherwise.

All I have EVER said is that until we BEAT those teams, and not just once in 5 or more tries, I don’t believe we’re in that tier. I’m surprised it’s a debate but it is. I’d put those two at the top, us and a few others in the tier below them, then everyone else.

But yes, some have most certainly said we’re just as good as those teams and you either missed the many posts, or are just trying to argue to argue which I feel like you do with me for whatever reason.

If we don’t belong in the same tier as NDSU and SDSU, then who belongs in the second tier as MSU. Utilizing your same rationale, a team would have to be DOMINANT against every everyone except the DSU’s and the others in the second tier. Since Covid, MSU has only lost to TWO other FCS teams. These are the only two FCS teams that MSU has lost to (besides NDSU and SDSU) since COVID.

Gris - lost twice to Gris, but the Gris have not been dominant over others in that span including losses to Portland State types.

Idaho - lost once to Idaho and they have multiple losses to other teams as well.

We beat the Griz - 34-11 and Idaho 38-7 last year. Based on your criteria, you can’t count them in the same tier as MSU.

Given how close our scores are to the DSU’s, including a two overtime thriller, I would say MSU is clearly closer to the top tier than a second tier.

[TomCat88]

If you lose every coin flip game, maybe it's not a coin flip? At some point the randomness isn't randomness. There's nothing wrong with admitting that we're still a half step behind the DSUs. How often do they lose close games at home against teams that some consider are comparable opponents? Just because we should have won the last two home games doesn't mean that we are at their level and a few things broke the wrong way. I still think we'll get there, as long as Vigen is here, but we're not quite there yet. Real close though.

If you lose a game because the replay crew ignores the rule about overturning the call on the field, yeah, its actually random.

Give NDSU credit for the blocked point & give SDSU credit for the OT win. And, yeah, you are right...if NDSU & SDSU consistently make those plays in OT, maybe they are slightly aghead. But the difference is pretty slight.

Its not as though the sky is falling here.

I’m only speaking for myself here as people tend to get pretty extreme both ways.

We’ve known for over a year the possibility of starting this season 0-2. Two very good teams to face out of the gate. I still believe the Cats are very good and I think we can run the table at least till the brawl. I think we can get a seed.

I’m just very very tired of losing to the Dakotas. Sure the games are fun. That’s great. I love competitive games. But when it comes to the sports teams that I personally root for and in the case of the Cats invest in; I want them to WIN. I’m so tired of hearing that we’re right there with the Dakotas simply because we can compete with them. I love that we can compete. Love that they no longer dominate us. But so tired of playing these guys, thinking we can win, but expecting to probably lose, and then act like I’m super happy that we competed well. It just doesn’t mean anything.

Tom used a mogul skiing analogy earlier. And I agree that if you’re a good skier and lose a few races you don’t sell your skis. You find a way to get better. I’m not advocating the Cats do anything extreme. I love that we’re very good and I love our head coach. But that skiing example isn’t really what is happening with our football program so it was kinda apples and oranges to me.

What if there were 3 skiers, Tom, Jim and John. Tom’s a decent skier but not as good as Jim and John. In fact, John used to absolutely crush Tom but as of lately he still wins, but Tom is at least competitive. Jim kinda came out of nowhere and he always beats Tom almost every race and even beats John.

Tom’s mother loves Tom very much and tells all her friends that of all the skiers around, no one is better than her son. If anything Jim and John are equally as good as Tom, but not better. Despite the fact that every time they have raced, Jim and John have beat Tom every time but once!

I’d be more inclined to agree with Tom’s mother if Tom started beating Jim and John; and not just being really close to beating them or perhaps beating them if only a few more things would or wouldn’t have happened.

Yeah, no one is telling anyone that the Cats are better than the DSUs. If this were a track meet & one of the two DSUs beat the Cats by a tenth of a second every single time, no one would freak out because the Cats kept winning bronze or silver.

To take the skiing analogy a little further: Say your daughter was consistently on the podium with Lindsay Vonn & Mikala Schifferin....but family members complained constantly about "only" consistently winning second and third.

You'd tell them where to shove it.

And then your kid would get back to the grind & figure out what details to change to try to bump that one last spot & finish first instead of second.

You sure wouldn't fire coaches or techs or act like the sky was falling.

I’d never call for a coaches firing anyway. I love our coaching and love our program. What I disagree with is the notion that there is a TOP tier that includes NDSU, SDSU, and MSU. But I guess that depends on how you view sports. For me winning championships is the Mecca of success. But you’ll never hear me suggest we’re bad or not a good program because we’re not winning championships. We are a very good program and right there to hopefully win championships soon. But being competitive doesn’t put us in the same tier. Beating those guys does.

So if my daughter was a skier in your scenario, I’d be super proud of her. I’d believe she was good enough to some day beat those other girls. I’d be proud of her accomplishments and always supportive. But if they were constantly winning gold, and she never did, I certainly wouldn’t be telling people she’s just as good…….

Has anyone said the Cats are 'just as good' as the DSUs?

Or have they said that the Cats were on the losing end of bunch of coin flip games?

This (and other) threads are in the realm of 'Vigen is terrible', the Cats will be lucky to make the playoffs, the Cats cant compete with the DSUs, etc.

Its pretty bonkers when the Cats are clearly competing, just not coming up with the win.

Well, yes. Tom specifically said the top tier of FCS football is NDSU, SDSU and MSU. He’s said it a bunch over the last few seasons and I’ve disagreed every time. We’re a great program. Have made championship games. On a great run and I think we’re in for another great season. I’ve never said otherwise.

All I have EVER said is that until we BEAT those teams, and not just once in 5 or more tries, I don’t believe we’re in that tier. I’m surprised it’s a debate but it is. I’d put those two at the top, us and a few others in the tier below them, then everyone else.

But yes, some have most certainly said we’re just as good as those teams and you either missed the many posts, or are just trying to argue to argue which I feel like you do with me for whatever reason.

If we don’t belong in the same tier as NDSU and SDSU, then who belongs in the second tier as MSU. Utilizing your same rationale, a team would have to be DOMINANT against every everyone except the DSU’s and the others in the second tier. Since Covid, MSU has only lost to TWO other FCS teams. These are the only two FCS teams that MSU has lost to (besides NDSU and SDSU) since COVID.

Gris - lost twice to Gris, but the Gris have not been dominant over others in that span including losses to Portland State types.

Idaho - lost once to Idaho and they have multiple losses to other teams as well.

We beat the Griz - 34-11 and Idaho 38-7 last year. Based on your criteria, you can’t count them in the same tier as MSU.

Given how close our scores are to the DSU’s, including a two overtime thriller, I would say MSU is clearly closer to the top tier than a second tier.

Damn! Good post. I'm just mad that I didn't think of that. I'll be using this in the future (with your permission).

[coloradocat]

If you lose every coin flip game, maybe it's not a coin flip? At some point the randomness isn't randomness. There's nothing wrong with admitting that we're still a half step behind the DSUs. How often do they lose close games at home against teams that some consider are comparable opponents? Just because we should have won the last two home games doesn't mean that we are at their level and a few things broke the wrong way. I still think we'll get there, as long as Vigen is here, but we're not quite there yet. Real close though.

If you lose a game because the replay crew ignores the rule about overturning the call on the field, yeah, its actually random.

Give NDSU credit for the blocked point & give SDSU credit for the OT win. And, yeah, you are right...if NDSU & SDSU consistently make those plays in OT, maybe they are slightly aghead. But the difference is pretty slight.

Its not as though the sky is falling here.

I’m only speaking for myself here as people tend to get pretty extreme both ways.

We’ve known for over a year the possibility of starting this season 0-2. Two very good teams to face out of the gate. I still believe the Cats are very good and I think we can run the table at least till the brawl. I think we can get a seed.

I’m just very very tired of losing to the Dakotas. Sure the games are fun. That’s great. I love competitive games. But when it comes to the sports teams that I personally root for and in the case of the Cats invest in; I want them to WIN. I’m so tired of hearing that we’re right there with the Dakotas simply because we can compete with them. I love that we can compete. Love that they no longer dominate us. But so tired of playing these guys, thinking we can win, but expecting to probably lose, and then act like I’m super happy that we competed well. It just doesn’t mean anything.

Tom used a mogul skiing analogy earlier. And I agree that if you’re a good skier and lose a few races you don’t sell your skis. You find a way to get better. I’m not advocating the Cats do anything extreme. I love that we’re very good and I love our head coach. But that skiing example isn’t really what is happening with our football program so it was kinda apples and oranges to me.

What if there were 3 skiers, Tom, Jim and John. Tom’s a decent skier but not as good as Jim and John. In fact, John used to absolutely crush Tom but as of lately he still wins, but Tom is at least competitive. Jim kinda came out of nowhere and he always beats Tom almost every race and even beats John.

Tom’s mother loves Tom very much and tells all her friends that of all the skiers around, no one is better than her son. If anything Jim and John are equally as good as Tom, but not better. Despite the fact that every time they have raced, Jim and John have beat Tom every time but once!

I’d be more inclined to agree with Tom’s mother if Tom started beating Jim and John; and not just being really close to beating them or perhaps beating them if only a few more things would or wouldn’t have happened.

Yeah, no one is telling anyone that the Cats are better than the DSUs. If this were a track meet & one of the two DSUs beat the Cats by a tenth of a second every single time, no one would freak out because the Cats kept winning bronze or silver.

To take the skiing analogy a little further: Say your daughter was consistently on the podium with Lindsay Vonn & Mikala Schifferin....but family members complained constantly about "only" consistently winning second and third.

You'd tell them where to shove it.

And then your kid would get back to the grind & figure out what details to change to try to bump that one last spot & finish first instead of second.

You sure wouldn't fire coaches or techs or act like the sky was falling.

I’d never call for a coaches firing anyway. I love our coaching and love our program. What I disagree with is the notion that there is a TOP tier that includes NDSU, SDSU, and MSU. But I guess that depends on how you view sports. For me winning championships is the Mecca of success. But you’ll never hear me suggest we’re bad or not a good program because we’re not winning championships. We are a very good program and right there to hopefully win championships soon. But being competitive doesn’t put us in the same tier. Beating those guys does.

So if my daughter was a skier in your scenario, I’d be super proud of her. I’d believe she was good enough to some day beat those other girls. I’d be proud of her accomplishments and always supportive. But if they were constantly winning gold, and she never did, I certainly wouldn’t be telling people she’s just as good…….

Has anyone said the Cats are 'just as good' as the DSUs?

Or have they said that the Cats were on the losing end of bunch of coin flip games?

This (and other) threads are in the realm of 'Vigen is terrible', the Cats will be lucky to make the playoffs, the Cats cant compete with the DSUs, etc.

Its pretty bonkers when the Cats are clearly competing, just not coming up with the win.

Well, yes. Tom specifically said the top tier of FCS football is NDSU, SDSU and MSU. He’s said it a bunch over the last few seasons and I’ve disagreed every time. We’re a great program. Have made championship games. On a great run and I think we’re in for another great season. I’ve never said otherwise.

All I have EVER said is that until we BEAT those teams, and not just once in 5 or more tries, I don’t believe we’re in that tier. I’m surprised it’s a debate but it is. I’d put those two at the top, us and a few others in the tier below them, then everyone else.

But yes, some have most certainly said we’re just as good as those teams and you either missed the many posts, or are just trying to argue to argue which I feel like you do with me for whatever reason.

If we don’t belong in the same tier as NDSU and SDSU, then who belongs in the second tier as MSU. Utilizing your same rationale, a team would have to be DOMINANT against every everyone except the DSU’s and the others in the second tier. Since Covid, MSU has only lost to TWO other FCS teams. These are the only two FCS teams that MSU has lost to (besides NDSU and SDSU) since COVID.

Gris - lost twice to Gris, but the Gris have not been dominant over others in that span including losses to Portland State types.

Idaho - lost once to Idaho and they have multiple losses to other teams as well.

We beat the Griz - 34-11 and Idaho 38-7 last year. Based on your criteria, you can’t count them in the same tier as MSU.

Given how close our scores are to the DSU’s, including a two overtime thriller, I would say MSU is clearly closer to the top tier than a second tier.

The counter argument to this (I'm not really sure where I stand) is that until SDSU joined NDSU, the Bizon were in a tier by themselves, so maybe the Bobcats are in a tier by themselves.

The biggest problem with this argument is that the 3rd tier may just be the griz by themselves. Nobody else has been consistently good (or more accurately, highly ranked) than the griz and they had a lucky run to Frisco a couple years ago.

Tier 1: XDSUs
Tier 2: MSU
Tier 3: griz
Tier 4: UCD, Idaho?, one/two year wonders
Tier 5: The other 115 FCS teams

[BelligerentBobcat]

If you lose every coin flip game, maybe it's not a coin flip? At some point the randomness isn't randomness. There's nothing wrong with admitting that we're still a half step behind the DSUs. How often do they lose close games at home against teams that some consider are comparable opponents? Just because we should have won the last two home games doesn't mean that we are at their level and a few things broke the wrong way. I still think we'll get there, as long as Vigen is here, but we're not quite there yet. Real close though.

If you lose a game because the replay crew ignores the rule about overturning the call on the field, yeah, its actually random.

Give NDSU credit for the blocked point & give SDSU credit for the OT win. And, yeah, you are right...if NDSU & SDSU consistently make those plays in OT, maybe they are slightly aghead. But the difference is pretty slight.

Its not as though the sky is falling here.

I’m only speaking for myself here as people tend to get pretty extreme both ways.

We’ve known for over a year the possibility of starting this season 0-2. Two very good teams to face out of the gate. I still believe the Cats are very good and I think we can run the table at least till the brawl. I think we can get a seed.

I’m just very very tired of losing to the Dakotas. Sure the games are fun. That’s great. I love competitive games. But when it comes to the sports teams that I personally root for and in the case of the Cats invest in; I want them to WIN. I’m so tired of hearing that we’re right there with the Dakotas simply because we can compete with them. I love that we can compete. Love that they no longer dominate us. But so tired of playing these guys, thinking we can win, but expecting to probably lose, and then act like I’m super happy that we competed well. It just doesn’t mean anything.

Tom used a mogul skiing analogy earlier. And I agree that if you’re a good skier and lose a few races you don’t sell your skis. You find a way to get better. I’m not advocating the Cats do anything extreme. I love that we’re very good and I love our head coach. But that skiing example isn’t really what is happening with our football program so it was kinda apples and oranges to me.

What if there were 3 skiers, Tom, Jim and John. Tom’s a decent skier but not as good as Jim and John. In fact, John used to absolutely crush Tom but as of lately he still wins, but Tom is at least competitive. Jim kinda came out of nowhere and he always beats Tom almost every race and even beats John.

Tom’s mother loves Tom very much and tells all her friends that of all the skiers around, no one is better than her son. If anything Jim and John are equally as good as Tom, but not better. Despite the fact that every time they have raced, Jim and John have beat Tom every time but once!

I’d be more inclined to agree with Tom’s mother if Tom started beating Jim and John; and not just being really close to beating them or perhaps beating them if only a few more things would or wouldn’t have happened.

Yeah, no one is telling anyone that the Cats are better than the DSUs. If this were a track meet & one of the two DSUs beat the Cats by a tenth of a second every single time, no one would freak out because the Cats kept winning bronze or silver.

To take the skiing analogy a little further: Say your daughter was consistently on the podium with Lindsay Vonn & Mikala Schifferin....but family members complained constantly about "only" consistently winning second and third.

You'd tell them where to shove it.

And then your kid would get back to the grind & figure out what details to change to try to bump that one last spot & finish first instead of second.

You sure wouldn't fire coaches or techs or act like the sky was falling.

I’d never call for a coaches firing anyway. I love our coaching and love our program. What I disagree with is the notion that there is a TOP tier that includes NDSU, SDSU, and MSU. But I guess that depends on how you view sports. For me winning championships is the Mecca of success. But you’ll never hear me suggest we’re bad or not a good program because we’re not winning championships. We are a very good program and right there to hopefully win championships soon. But being competitive doesn’t put us in the same tier. Beating those guys does.

So if my daughter was a skier in your scenario, I’d be super proud of her. I’d believe she was good enough to some day beat those other girls. I’d be proud of her accomplishments and always supportive. But if they were constantly winning gold, and she never did, I certainly wouldn’t be telling people she’s just as good…….

Has anyone said the Cats are 'just as good' as the DSUs?

Or have they said that the Cats were on the losing end of bunch of coin flip games?

This (and other) threads are in the realm of 'Vigen is terrible', the Cats will be lucky to make the playoffs, the Cats cant compete with the DSUs, etc.

Its pretty bonkers when the Cats are clearly competing, just not coming up with the win.

Well, yes. Tom specifically said the top tier of FCS football is NDSU, SDSU and MSU. He’s said it a bunch over the last few seasons and I’ve disagreed every time. We’re a great program. Have made championship games. On a great run and I think we’re in for another great season. I’ve never said otherwise.

All I have EVER said is that until we BEAT those teams, and not just once in 5 or more tries, I don’t believe we’re in that tier. I’m surprised it’s a debate but it is. I’d put those two at the top, us and a few others in the tier below them, then everyone else.

But yes, some have most certainly said we’re just as good as those teams and you either missed the many posts, or are just trying to argue to argue which I feel like you do with me for whatever reason.

If we don’t belong in the same tier as NDSU and SDSU, then who belongs in the second tier as MSU. Utilizing your same rationale, a team would have to be DOMINANT against every everyone except the DSU’s and the others in the second tier. Since Covid, MSU has only lost to TWO other FCS teams. These are the only two FCS teams that MSU has lost to (besides NDSU and SDSU) since COVID.

Gris - lost twice to Gris, but the Gris have not been dominant over others in that span including losses to Portland State types.

Idaho - lost once to Idaho and they have multiple losses to other teams as well.

We beat the Griz - 34-11 and Idaho 38-7 last year. Based on your criteria, you can’t count them in the same tier as MSU.

Given how close our scores are to the DSU’s, including a two overtime thriller, I would say MSU is clearly closer to the top tier than a second tier.

The counter argument to this (I'm not really sure where I stand) is that until SDSU joined NDSU, the Bizon were in a tier by themselves, so maybe the Bobcats are in a tier by themselves.

The biggest problem with this argument is that the 3rd tier may just be the griz by themselves. Nobody else has been consistently good (or more accurately, highly ranked) than the griz and they had a lucky run to Frisco a couple years ago.

Tier 1: XDSUs
Tier 2: MSU
Tier 3: griz
Tier 4: UCD, Idaho?, one/two year wonders
Tier 5: The other 115 FCS teams

Tier 3 & 4 could be combined. I think tier 1, 2, and 5 are correct.

[coloradocat]

I'm confident that if our week 2 and 3 opponents were flipped we would be 2-1 after three weeks, not 1-2, and multiple threads on BN wouldn't exist. We'd be firmly established in Tier 1.

[gris_h8er]

I recall this gris_h8 poster complaining about Vigen in the past. His username is a variation of another poster here so it stuck in my mind. I looked at his previous posts and He clearly has some personal vendetta against Vigen. His last posts prior to yesterday was to berate Vigen for being a terrible coach when we beat New Mexico last year. We then ran 14 straight wins and he didn’t make a peep till yesterday. He is an entitled fan who just makes the fan base look bad.

We just took the number two team in the nation into double overtime. We had chances to win the game right. There is no problem. If we lose a couple more games, let’s talk then, but I see this team with 10 straight wins. The OC needs to quit running Lamson so much and the offensive line needs to figure out some things. We will be okay.

Definitely be ok and likely be an 8+ win season. However that doesn’t mean that’s the end goal or there is nothing to improve. It also doesn’t mean that winning a cream puff schedule makes Vigen the second coming.

You’re absolutely right I have a bone to pick with Vigen, he was supposed to elevate to the dsus and win a national championship. Unless I missed something we’re still waiting on him to accomplish those goals. So the question is how many mistakes, how many close calls and how many coming up short games is enough? Should the Vigen train be ridden to .500 or below? Or should the plug be pulled now and try to push to the next level with a new guy?

And you’re right, I had nothing to say cause it looked like the problems were solved. I wasn’t thrilled with how they called plays for Tommy but it worked out in spite of what I saw to be mistakes. Unfortunately this team is making the same mistakes that showed up two years ago against Idaho. So the question is what happened? Did Vigen learn/not learn? New roster? Coordinators not listening to the greatest coach in Bobcat history?

How old are you? My guess is early 30’s and have never experienced a rough patch. I can tell you with 100% certainty that 2 losses to VERY good teams (they both might undefeated) is not indicative of trouble. The cupboard is certainly not bare. We have multiple dudes that will be recruited by FBS programs for next season.

You act like winning a national championship is a god given right. It isn’t. Other teams with very qualified personnel, and in many cases better resources, are striving for the same goal.

If you are so passionate about your “right” to a national championship, why don’t you pull out your checkbook and start writing NIL checks to keep our top guys. Zimmer will be offered a six figure deal this offseason to play somewhere else next year. It is the reality of today’s game. You basically have called for firings of people who make their livelihood coaching at MSU, why don’t you put your financial commitment in the same category?

Lastly, the past 4 years of Bobcat football have been some of the most successful (if not the best ever) run of football MSU has ever seen. If you want to be that entitled fan and trash coaches with no real justification, then you are better off at egriz.

Oregon doesn’t count. I personally have nothing to say about it they were the number one team in the country for multiple weeks last year. Outlier and irrelevant. Losing to a dsu for the 6th time during his tenure is frustrating. His objectives 1 and 1a have not yet been achieved. So what’s his timeline? How long is too long? Is he capable of achieving the objectives cited in his hiring? Who knows but I’m skeptical.

As far as your ramblings about the roster. It’s a good roster and the kids played well. Blaming the loss to sdsu on losing guys is baseless. Kids graduate, kids transfer, welcome to college football. I personally think Vigen manages the roster very well in the new era of college football. I don’t like how he coaches games. I don’t like his game plans. I don’t like that after three OCs the offense looks the same and calls the same plays in situations those plays have no place. I saw kids achieving to their ability levels the kids were let down by coaching.

You can act indignant about what you perceive to be my belief that I am “owed” a title but the fact is he was hired to accomplish a goal. If he can’t it’s time to look elsewhere for leadership.

[gris_h8er]

I hope I’m wrong and my frustrations with Vigen are nothing more than small missteps. I hope he’s thinking of all the things to fix this and beat them in the playoffs. I hope all of the people not seeing anything wrong are right. If thats the case it means the plane is gonna be one trophy heavier taking off from Frisco that the plane that left Bozeman. That will be a great day.

If that’s not the case then something has to be done to beat the dsus and the gris in missoula. I think that starts with a new HC. Am I right? Who knows

Either win in which case I’m wrong about Vigen and my skepticism was overplayed or my detractions of Vigen are anccurate and I think a change of leadership is in order.

I don’t think that’s unreasonable. I would hope we can agree that being a Bobcat is great and winning makes it that much sweater. I hope Vigen accomplishes the goals he was hired to achieve. If he doesn’t show him the door.

Jeff Choate was 4-0 against the gris in Missoula but never sniffed the chipper & is looking like hes way out of his depth at Nevada.

And he was a pretty good coach here.

The idea that we are going to replace an 77% win rate coach with a 100% win rate coach is totally absurd.

I’ll buy you a candy bar if you can find where I said 100% win rate.

What’s absurd is yet another “good enough” post.

[gris_h8er]

gris-h8er, you much like Veruca Salt, are a bad egg. ‘Hey, Daddy, I want a National Championship! I want you to get me a National Championship right away!’

Then you will say, ‘at least I’m not complacent’. Thing is, no one here is complacent, any current player I have spoken to loves the culture Vigen has created and respect him as a coach. So, I guess you’re also calling out the players, busting their butts for our entertainment, for being complacent. You are just a spoiled brat.

Right away is false. It’s been 4 years and change. By no definition of the phrase does that qualify as “right away”. What was one of the goals cited during his hiring? Something along the lines of national championship victory I believe. Who knows, maybe the spoiled attitude I have is clouding my memory.

There is a 0% chance Vigen ever gets fired for performance here. 0%. By all means continue your crusade if you like. But it'll never happen. He's elevated us, like it or not. Ash did, then the wheels fell off. Choate got that out of the ditch but never elevated us even to the top of the big sky. Vigen has. And the arrow is still up, in my view. We are going to win either 9 or 10 games and be a seed in a year where we have to replace some of the best guys to ever play for us. A fireable offense? I think decidedly not.

It’s not a fireable offense. Unfortunately you chose to sidestep and not directly address my cited reasons.

However, not changing is. Not learning is. Repeating mistakes from the Idaho implosion two years ago is. Not accomplishing the objectives set publicly in his hiring is a fireable offense.