Mountain west/NDSU

[Cataholic]

To those that say we haven’t outgrown the FCS because we haven’t won a championship or can still lose games, I would just say that I feel you are taking a very narrow view of the FCS as a whole. There are probably somewhere between 5-10 programs in FCS (not counting any that are already in process of transitioning) that have all outgrown the FCS in terms of institutional and fan support. The Montanas and Dakotas do not fit in the FCS any longer. They have zero in common with the likes of the lower 2/3’s of teams in this subdivision. The only ones that have bounced MSU from the playoffs have been from that group. Just because MSU hasn’t won a championship due to not overcoming other schools that are in the same position as them does not change the fact that they clearly fit better with G5 schools than with 90% of the FCS. It isn’t arrogant, it is simply looking at things logically.

Well said. Does anybody know the process or cost to the a whole new conference establishing itself as an FBS level? That could be an outstanding division with good football and good followings:

MSU
UM
NDSU
SDSU
Idaho
Sac State

Maybes:

Weber
UC Davis
Northern Iowa
NAU
USD
UND
Southern Illinois
Illinois State

[Marana CAT]

Relevance is what you make of it. Is it any more important to a Class AA kid to win a football championship compared to a Class C kid in the State of Montana ? If MSU ever gets to the point where NDSU is then yes it’s time to move up. Until then it is extremely relevant for current MSU players to win a National Championship at the FCS level.. The majority of current and past Cat football players care less about the Alabama’s and Ohio States winning FBS Championships. They care about the UM’s and NDSU’s and don’t need to move up to feel relevant like some people.

[tetoncat]

To those that say we haven’t outgrown the FCS because we haven’t won a championship or can still lose games, I would just say that I feel you are taking a very narrow view of the FCS as a whole. There are probably somewhere between 5-10 programs in FCS (not counting any that are already in process of transitioning) that have all outgrown the FCS in terms of institutional and fan support. The Montanas and Dakotas do not fit in the FCS any longer. They have zero in common with the likes of the lower 2/3’s of teams in this subdivision. The only ones that have bounced MSU from the playoffs have been from that group. Just because MSU hasn’t won a championship due to not overcoming other schools that are in the same position as them does not change the fact that they clearly fit better with G5 schools than with 90% of the FCS. It isn’t arrogant, it is simply looking at things logically.

And they have zero in common with the top 2/3 of the FBS.

[Marana CAT]

To those that say we haven’t outgrown the FCS because we haven’t won a championship or can still lose games, I would just say that I feel you are taking a very narrow view of the FCS as a whole. There are probably somewhere between 5-10 programs in FCS (not counting any that are already in process of transitioning) that have all outgrown the FCS in terms of institutional and fan support. The Montanas and Dakotas do not fit in the FCS any longer. They have zero in common with the likes of the lower 2/3’s of teams in this subdivision. The only ones that have bounced MSU from the playoffs have been from that group. Just because MSU hasn’t won a championship due to not overcoming other schools that are in the same position as them does not change the fact that they clearly fit better with G5 schools than with 90% of the FCS. It isn’t arrogant, it is simply looking at things logically.

And they have zero in common with the top 2/3 of the FBS.

Louisiana is 8-1 and leading the Sun Belt. Has anyone heard anything about them at the national level? Cats are 10-0 and have 10 times the exposure at the national level then Louisiana. G5 teams outside of about 4-5 teams each year are not relevant and play for just a conference championship and a second rate bowl game. FCS as a landscape has its on relevant following. Right now every good team in every FCS conference follows what happens with the Cats each week.. If the Cats move to FBS we become irrelevant forever..

[SonomaCat]

To those that say we haven’t outgrown the FCS because we haven’t won a championship or can still lose games, I would just say that I feel you are taking a very narrow view of the FCS as a whole. There are probably somewhere between 5-10 programs in FCS (not counting any that are already in process of transitioning) that have all outgrown the FCS in terms of institutional and fan support. The Montanas and Dakotas do not fit in the FCS any longer. They have zero in common with the likes of the lower 2/3’s of teams in this subdivision. The only ones that have bounced MSU from the playoffs have been from that group. Just because MSU hasn’t won a championship due to not overcoming other schools that are in the same position as them does not change the fact that they clearly fit better with G5 schools than with 90% of the FCS. It isn’t arrogant, it is simply looking at things logically.

The fact that we've played a full FCS schedule plus one FBS game (against a middle of the pack Mountain West team), and we all agree that we've had an "easy" schedule pretty much tells us all we need to know.

[technoCat]

To those that say we haven’t outgrown the FCS because we haven’t won a championship or can still lose games, I would just say that I feel you are taking a very narrow view of the FCS as a whole. There are probably somewhere between 5-10 programs in FCS (not counting any that are already in process of transitioning) that have all outgrown the FCS in terms of institutional and fan support. The Montanas and Dakotas do not fit in the FCS any longer. They have zero in common with the likes of the lower 2/3’s of teams in this subdivision. The only ones that have bounced MSU from the playoffs have been from that group. Just because MSU hasn’t won a championship due to not overcoming other schools that are in the same position as them does not change the fact that they clearly fit better with G5 schools than with 90% of the FCS. It isn’t arrogant, it is simply looking at things logically.

The fact that we've played a full FCS schedule plus one FBS game (against a middle of the pack Mountain West team), and we all agree that we've had an "easy" schedule pretty much tells us all we need to know.

When was the last time the Cats outright won a BSC championship in football? 2011?

I'm firmly in the camp that until we win a natty, we haven't got too big for the FCS. Probably prefer to win a couple. Be interesting to see if people feel this way next year when we're breaking in a new qb and not dominating our games.

[Cataholic]

To those that say we haven’t outgrown the FCS because we haven’t won a championship or can still lose games, I would just say that I feel you are taking a very narrow view of the FCS as a whole. There are probably somewhere between 5-10 programs in FCS (not counting any that are already in process of transitioning) that have all outgrown the FCS in terms of institutional and fan support. The Montanas and Dakotas do not fit in the FCS any longer. They have zero in common with the likes of the lower 2/3’s of teams in this subdivision. The only ones that have bounced MSU from the playoffs have been from that group. Just because MSU hasn’t won a championship due to not overcoming other schools that are in the same position as them does not change the fact that they clearly fit better with G5 schools than with 90% of the FCS. It isn’t arrogant, it is simply looking at things logically.

And they have zero in common with the top 2/3 of the FBS.

Louisiana is 8-1 and leading the Sun Belt. Has anyone heard anything about them at the national level? Cats are 10-0 and have 10 times the exposure at the national level then Louisiana. G5 teams outside of about 4-5 teams each year are not relevant and play for just a conference championship and a second rate bowl game. FCS as a landscape has its on relevant following. Right now every good team in every FCS conference follows what happens with the Cats each week.. If the Cats move to FBS we become irrelevant forever..

Exactly! Just like Boise State…. Oh wait, that’s not applicable.

[MSU Doc]

To those that say we haven’t outgrown the FCS because we haven’t won a championship or can still lose games, I would just say that I feel you are taking a very narrow view of the FCS as a whole. There are probably somewhere between 5-10 programs in FCS (not counting any that are already in process of transitioning) that have all outgrown the FCS in terms of institutional and fan support. The Montanas and Dakotas do not fit in the FCS any longer. They have zero in common with the likes of the lower 2/3’s of teams in this subdivision. The only ones that have bounced MSU from the playoffs have been from that group. Just because MSU hasn’t won a championship due to not overcoming other schools that are in the same position as them does not change the fact that they clearly fit better with G5 schools than with 90% of the FCS. It isn’t arrogant, it is simply looking at things logically.

And they have zero in common with the top 2/3 of the FBS.

Louisiana is 8-1 and leading the Sun Belt. Has anyone heard anything about them at the national level? Cats are 10-0 and have 10 times the exposure at the national level then Louisiana. G5 teams outside of about 4-5 teams each year are not relevant and play for just a conference championship and a second rate bowl game. FCS as a landscape has its on relevant following. Right now every good team in every FCS conference follows what happens with the Cats each week.. If the Cats move to FBS we become irrelevant forever..

Exactly! Just like Boise State…. Oh wait, that’s not applicable.

If Bozeman had a metro population of 760k like Boise, it would be a better comparison.

[kmax]

To those that say we haven’t outgrown the FCS because we haven’t won a championship or can still lose games, I would just say that I feel you are taking a very narrow view of the FCS as a whole. There are probably somewhere between 5-10 programs in FCS (not counting any that are already in process of transitioning) that have all outgrown the FCS in terms of institutional and fan support. The Montanas and Dakotas do not fit in the FCS any longer. They have zero in common with the likes of the lower 2/3’s of teams in this subdivision. The only ones that have bounced MSU from the playoffs have been from that group. Just because MSU hasn’t won a championship due to not overcoming other schools that are in the same position as them does not change the fact that they clearly fit better with G5 schools than with 90% of the FCS. It isn’t arrogant, it is simply looking at things logically.

And they have zero in common with the top 2/3 of the FBS.

But not the G5. Take out the P(whatever #) teams, they are just minor league pro ball. None or nearly none of the G5 have anything in common with them either. There may not technically be a different sub classification between them, but everyone knows they are different levels of ball.

[tetoncat]

To those that say we haven’t outgrown the FCS because we haven’t won a championship or can still lose games, I would just say that I feel you are taking a very narrow view of the FCS as a whole. There are probably somewhere between 5-10 programs in FCS (not counting any that are already in process of transitioning) that have all outgrown the FCS in terms of institutional and fan support. The Montanas and Dakotas do not fit in the FCS any longer. They have zero in common with the likes of the lower 2/3’s of teams in this subdivision. The only ones that have bounced MSU from the playoffs have been from that group. Just because MSU hasn’t won a championship due to not overcoming other schools that are in the same position as them does not change the fact that they clearly fit better with G5 schools than with 90% of the FCS. It isn’t arrogant, it is simply looking at things logically.

And they have zero in common with the top 2/3 of the FBS.

But not the G5. Take out the P(whatever #) teams, they are just minor league pro ball. None or nearly none of the G5 have anything in common with them either. There may not technically be a different sub classification between them, but everyone knows they are different levels of ball.

So then what is the benefit. Won't be top level of FBS, so would be mid of pack in G5 then hopefully top of G5. Either is irrelevant unless you can stay undefeated or have a Heisman type player. Maybe it is better level of play, but if you improved to be a Top 1/3 of G5 will still have shifty games against bottom 1/3

[BobcatBuiltTexan]

Stay where we are at....let them go. There is no benefit to moving up, it will literally kill this program. Maybe a good year every so often and the best you get is to go to some no name bowl with zero views and no real pageantry(and less money because you won't draw as much for mid week games).

For MSU it would better and more beneficial to be a big fish in a small pond vs a very small fish in an ocean....

Literally kill the program? Dozens of schools have made the FCS to FBS jump in the last 20 years and none have been "killed". Being a big fish in a small pond is fine if that's the best option available but if you think moving up would kill the program or diminish the fan interest that currently exists, I think you're very wrong in that take. The no-name FBS bowl games still draw a lot more viewers than the FCS playoff games do, and moving to a stronger conference could benefit the athletic department as a whole and not just football if MSU can figure out the financial aspects of how to fund the extra scholarships and sports they'll need to offer to move to FBS.

Yes it will kill the program as we know it. We'll it still exist? Yes, but THIS program would die a slow death. Whatever financial benefits we gain will be lost with the addition of 30 more FULL football scholarships, there are no partials in fbs football only full. The additional travel will take money away. Then you are now competent with all the other fbs schools for fbs level talent to come to a montana team that AT BEST plays in a no name bowl sooner or later. More than likely later. You'll start playing in the middle of the week so bring able to get the state fans to drive from 5+ hrs away to come watch on a Thursday dissipates, less money from ticket sales. Yes this storied program would die a show death and we would become an irrelevant team/school. And for what???? A couple of dollars that we would never see because it would get ate up in operating costs?

Also think that whatever conf we go to we have dramatically increase ALL facilities to lure recruits. No more buses for travel because no fbs program is putting their team on a bus to travel cross country.

It will not be a good look at all. Remember there more to a move up then we get more money and more exposure. There's a huge commitment on so many levels and that commitment will cost loads of money. How many fbs schools are in a similar type Latin and how well do they do? It isn't worth it.

I'm not saying you're totally wrong but I think you may have the wrong idea of where we are now and where we are talking about going.

We already fly to every away game except Missoula and Idaho State. It's not like we're about to get on a bus to drive to UC Davis next weekend. We're not Portland State. If we were to move up it would be to the Mountain West Conference which, outside of Hawaii, has essentially the same footprint as the BSC. We aren't joining the CUSA or AAC or another nationwide conference. As a result, travel and the costs associated wouldn't change (and we'd still bus to Missoula).

As far as game scheduling, the MWC plays more Saturday night games which will be annoying for many but they rarely play weeknight games. Again, we are joining the MAC.

Regarding facilities, we're already probably comparable with at least the bottom of the MWC, if not the middle, and if we moved up we would have more of an argument to attract larger donors.

Recruiting would become more competitive but as long as we don't completely fall apart in the first couple years I don't see why recruiting would fall off. If playing in a no-name bowl was so unappealing to high school kids we'd be beating out the MWC conference recruits all the time as an FCS team and that doesn't happen that often.

Finally, regarding irrelevancy: we're currently in the FCS. We're already irrelevant on a national stage. ESPN Gameday is a novelty tv show, not a sign that the rest of the country cares about us. If we moved up to the MWC we'd be less irrelevant, not more.

To me, the move up has nothing to do with money and everything to do with level of competition. The money is just so we can be competitive at the higher level. This 2024 team may be the best we've ever had, and the conference may be a little down, but we still shouldn't be 9 games into our FCS schedule with our starters only having to play 2 full games because we've so thoroughly dominated. I'd take 8-4 every year if it meant we were playing real teams. Sure, some years may be 6-6/7-5 but some years could be 9-3/10-2. We're not moving up solely for money like most teams have over the last dozen years. We're talking about moving up because we've outgrown the FCS.

I had a well thought out rebuttal and read it and I just didn't like what I read.....all I will say is simply this....trust me moving up is not in our best interest and just will not be of benefit.

[coloradocat]

Stay where we are at....let them go. There is no benefit to moving up, it will literally kill this program. Maybe a good year every so often and the best you get is to go to some no name bowl with zero views and no real pageantry(and less money because you won't draw as much for mid week games).

For MSU it would better and more beneficial to be a big fish in a small pond vs a very small fish in an ocean....

Literally kill the program? Dozens of schools have made the FCS to FBS jump in the last 20 years and none have been "killed". Being a big fish in a small pond is fine if that's the best option available but if you think moving up would kill the program or diminish the fan interest that currently exists, I think you're very wrong in that take. The no-name FBS bowl games still draw a lot more viewers than the FCS playoff games do, and moving to a stronger conference could benefit the athletic department as a whole and not just football if MSU can figure out the financial aspects of how to fund the extra scholarships and sports they'll need to offer to move to FBS.

Yes it will kill the program as we know it. We'll it still exist? Yes, but THIS program would die a slow death. Whatever financial benefits we gain will be lost with the addition of 30 more FULL football scholarships, there are no partials in fbs football only full. The additional travel will take money away. Then you are now competent with all the other fbs schools for fbs level talent to come to a montana team that AT BEST plays in a no name bowl sooner or later. More than likely later. You'll start playing in the middle of the week so bring able to get the state fans to drive from 5+ hrs away to come watch on a Thursday dissipates, less money from ticket sales. Yes this storied program would die a show death and we would become an irrelevant team/school. And for what???? A couple of dollars that we would never see because it would get ate up in operating costs?

Also think that whatever conf we go to we have dramatically increase ALL facilities to lure recruits. No more buses for travel because no fbs program is putting their team on a bus to travel cross country.

It will not be a good look at all. Remember there more to a move up then we get more money and more exposure. There's a huge commitment on so many levels and that commitment will cost loads of money. How many fbs schools are in a similar type Latin and how well do they do? It isn't worth it.

I'm not saying you're totally wrong but I think you may have the wrong idea of where we are now and where we are talking about going.

We already fly to every away game except Missoula and Idaho State. It's not like we're about to get on a bus to drive to UC Davis next weekend. We're not Portland State. If we were to move up it would be to the Mountain West Conference which, outside of Hawaii, has essentially the same footprint as the BSC. We aren't joining the CUSA or AAC or another nationwide conference. As a result, travel and the costs associated wouldn't change (and we'd still bus to Missoula).

As far as game scheduling, the MWC plays more Saturday night games which will be annoying for many but they rarely play weeknight games. Again, we are joining the MAC.

Regarding facilities, we're already probably comparable with at least the bottom of the MWC, if not the middle, and if we moved up we would have more of an argument to attract larger donors.

Recruiting would become more competitive but as long as we don't completely fall apart in the first couple years I don't see why recruiting would fall off. If playing in a no-name bowl was so unappealing to high school kids we'd be beating out the MWC conference recruits all the time as an FCS team and that doesn't happen that often.

Finally, regarding irrelevancy: we're currently in the FCS. We're already irrelevant on a national stage. ESPN Gameday is a novelty tv show, not a sign that the rest of the country cares about us. If we moved up to the MWC we'd be less irrelevant, not more.

To me, the move up has nothing to do with money and everything to do with level of competition. The money is just so we can be competitive at the higher level. This 2024 team may be the best we've ever had, and the conference may be a little down, but we still shouldn't be 9 games into our FCS schedule with our starters only having to play 2 full games because we've so thoroughly dominated. I'd take 8-4 every year if it meant we were playing real teams. Sure, some years may be 6-6/7-5 but some years could be 9-3/10-2. We're not moving up solely for money like most teams have over the last dozen years. We're talking about moving up because we've outgrown the FCS.

I had a well thought out rebuttal and read it and I just didn't like what I read.....all I will say is simply this....trust me moving up is not in our best interest and just will not be of benefit.

You may be right and are more likely to have knowledge that we don't since you are surrounded by FBS teams. I've just seen some doomer predictions around this and try to counter some of the negativity, warranted or not. I don't think things would be all sunshine and rainbows but I also don't things would fall apart. At the end of the day I want to see better football. We won't start 10-0 every year going forward in the FCS but we'll always play more than a few terrible teams, in conference and out, while we're here that we wouldn't in the MWC.

[Marana CAT]

I really doubt the Mountain West is ever going to want MSU and UM. Sac State and UC Davis will get an invite before the Montana schools.

[allcat]

To those that say we haven’t outgrown the FCS because we haven’t won a championship or can still lose games, I would just say that I feel you are taking a very narrow view of the FCS as a whole. There are probably somewhere between 5-10 programs in FCS (not counting any that are already in process of transitioning) that have all outgrown the FCS in terms of institutional and fan support. The Montanas and Dakotas do not fit in the FCS any longer. They have zero in common with the likes of the lower 2/3’s of teams in this subdivision. The only ones that have bounced MSU from the playoffs have been from that group. Just because MSU hasn’t won a championship due to not overcoming other schools that are in the same position as them does not change the fact that they clearly fit better with G5 schools than with 90% of the FCS. It isn’t arrogant, it is simply looking at things logically.

Well said. Does anybody know the process or cost to the a whole new conference establishing itself as an FBS level? That could be an outstanding division with good football and good followings:

MSU
UM
NDSU
SDSU
Idaho
Sac State

Maybes:

Weber
UC Davis
Northern Iowa
NAU
USD
UND
Southern Illinois
Illinois State

That's what Southern Utah was going to do by jumping in that conference. NCAA said no, they couldn't become fbs.

[damnyoutuesday]

I just have zero interest see our ceiling almost every year being the New Mexico Bowl against a Conference USA opponent. What is there to root for all season if you're 99% of the Group of 5? A one game participation trophy for being a mediocre or better football team? A couple extra practices to get us to the 68 Ventures Bowl in Mobile? Some of you are taking for granted what being a big fish in a small pond is like, and it won't be as fun to end up as a small fish in the entire ocean where nobody cares about us. While playing teams like Wyoming would be fun, all the teams in the MWC that I wanted us to play have just gotten poached by the PAC, and they sure as hell aren't inviting us

[coloradocat]

I just have zero interest see our ceiling almost every year being the New Mexico Bowl against a Conference USA opponent. What is there to root for all season if you're 99% of the Group of 5? A one game participation trophy for being a mediocre or better football team? A couple extra practices to get us to the 68 Ventures Bowl in Mobile? Some of you are taking for granted what being a big fish in a small pond is like, and it won't be as fun to end up as a small fish in the entire ocean where nobody cares about us. While playing teams like Wyoming would be fun, all the teams in the MWC that I wanted us to play have just gotten poached by the PAC, and they sure as hell aren't inviting us

Newsflash: nobody cares about us now.

[BleedingBLue]

I just have zero interest see our ceiling almost every year being the New Mexico Bowl against a Conference USA opponent. What is there to root for all season if you're 99% of the Group of 5? A one game participation trophy for being a mediocre or better football team? A couple extra practices to get us to the 68 Ventures Bowl in Mobile? Some of you are taking for granted what being a big fish in a small pond is like, and it won't be as fun to end up as a small fish in the entire ocean where nobody cares about us. While playing teams like Wyoming would be fun, all the teams in the MWC that I wanted us to play have just gotten poached by the PAC, and they sure as hell aren't inviting us

Newsflash: nobody cares about us now.

I beg to differ. The FCS media, FCS fans, and many of the top FCS programs care about us.

[Utcatsfan]

To those that say we haven’t outgrown the FCS because we haven’t won a championship or can still lose games, I would just say that I feel you are taking a very narrow view of the FCS as a whole. There are probably somewhere between 5-10 programs in FCS (not counting any that are already in process of transitioning) that have all outgrown the FCS in terms of institutional and fan support. The Montanas and Dakotas do not fit in the FCS any longer. They have zero in common with the likes of the lower 2/3’s of teams in this subdivision. The only ones that have bounced MSU from the playoffs have been from that group. Just because MSU hasn’t won a championship due to not overcoming other schools that are in the same position as them does not change the fact that they clearly fit better with G5 schools than with 90% of the FCS. It isn’t arrogant, it is simply looking at things logically.

And they have zero in common with the top 2/3 of the FBS.

But not the G5. Take out the P(whatever #) teams, they are just minor league pro ball. None or nearly none of the G5 have anything in common with them either. There may not technically be a different sub classification between them, but everyone knows they are different levels of ball.

So then what is the benefit. Won't be top level of FBS, so would be mid of pack in G5 then hopefully top of G5. Either is irrelevant unless you can stay undefeated or have a Heisman type player. Maybe it is better level of play, but if you improved to be a Top 1/3 of G5 will still have shifty games against bottom 1/3

More people watch the lower bowl games on average them the FCS Championship game

[rivercat]

I'm not going to say one way or the other. I wanted to bring up the fact that the transfer portal will limit the number of top tier FCS teams. The Montana's, Dakota's, and possibly a few more like UC Davis can hang on to talent that could easily play at the G5 level because of the level of support, experience, and education. Unless athletes are routinely playing in front of sold out stadiums, getting additional NIL or cost of living money, they are going to transfer up if possible. The days of a so-so team rising up because of great recruiting are over.

[coloradocat]

I just have zero interest see our ceiling almost every year being the New Mexico Bowl against a Conference USA opponent. What is there to root for all season if you're 99% of the Group of 5? A one game participation trophy for being a mediocre or better football team? A couple extra practices to get us to the 68 Ventures Bowl in Mobile? Some of you are taking for granted what being a big fish in a small pond is like, and it won't be as fun to end up as a small fish in the entire ocean where nobody cares about us. While playing teams like Wyoming would be fun, all the teams in the MWC that I wanted us to play have just gotten poached by the PAC, and they sure as hell aren't inviting us

Newsflash: nobody cares about us now.

I beg to differ. The FCS media, FCS fans, and many of the top FCS programs care about us.

On the national stage nobody cares and that's what it seems like damnyoutuesday was referring to. They don't care much about the G5 either but they care more than about the FCS. I'm not saying that my argument for moving up is that nobody cares about the FCS so much as that saying nobody cares about the G5 bowls isn't an argument against moving up.