Realignment

[CelticCat]

Let's say NDSU, SDSU, USD and UND somehow all get an invite to an FBS conference. Is that a fun subdvision? Here is your top 25 without those schools:

1. Montana State
2. Idaho
3. Villanova
4. Central Arkansas
5. Montana
6. Southern Illinois
7. Sac State
8. Incarnate Word
9. William & Mary
10. Chattanooga
11. UC Davis
12. Tarleton State
13. Albany
14. Illinois State
15. Lafayette
16. Weber State
17. Youngstown State
18. Elon
19. Mercer
20. Nicholls
21. Abilene Christian
22. Southeast Missouri
23. Richmond
24. Wofford
25. Nothern Iowa

[BleedingBLue]

Let's say NDSU, SDSU, USD and UND somehow all get an invite to an FBS conference. Is that a fun subdvision? Here is your top 25 without those schools:

1. Montana State
2. Idaho
3. Villanova
4. Central Arkansas
5. Montana
6. Southern Illinois
7. Sac State
8. Incarnate Word
9. William & Mary
10. Chattanooga
11. UC Davis
12. Tarleton State
13. Albany
14. Illinois State
15. Lafayette
16. Weber State
17. Youngstown State
18. Elon
19. Mercer
20. Nicholls
21. Abilene Christian
22. Southeast Missouri
23. Richmond
24. Wofford
25. Nothern Iowa

Winning football games and being one of the best teams in the country is always fun. Watching my team go 7-5/8-4, regularly finishing 4th or 5th in the conference and playing in the LA Bowl presented by Gronk isn't. I'd be a Utah State fan if it was.

[MSU01]

Winning football games and being one of the best teams in the country is always fun. Watching my team go 7-5/8-4, regularly finishing 4th or 5th in the conference and playing in the LA Bowl presented by Gronk isn't. I'd be a Utah State fan if it was.

Personally I don't find it nearly as fun as it was 10, 15, 20 years ago to follow the FCS division because let's be honest - there's a 90% chance that when we make it to Frisco in January the two teams there are going to be some combination of NDSU, SDSU, MSU, and UM. Those four programs are just so much stronger and have such better resources and facilities than the rest of the division that it's almost unfair to everyone else at this point. I'd rather watch MSU go 7-5 against a better schedule than pay half of my season ticket money to watch MSU play snoozers against the likes of Maine, Mercyhurst, and Northern Colorado that are over by the end of the first quarter. But I'm sure we all have different views here, and if MSU receives an invite to move up the decision will be made from a much wider viewpoint of what's best for the university and athletics department as a whole than just what's best for the football team.

[AFCAT]

Let's say NDSU, SDSU, USD and UND somehow all get an invite to an FBS conference. Is that a fun subdvision? Here is your top 25 without those schools:

1. Montana State
2. Idaho
3. Villanova
4. Central Arkansas
5. Montana
6. Southern Illinois
7. Sac State
8. Incarnate Word
9. William & Mary
10. Chattanooga
11. UC Davis
12. Tarleton State
13. Albany
14. Illinois State
15. Lafayette
16. Weber State
17. Youngstown State
18. Elon
19. Mercer
20. Nicholls
21. Abilene Christian
22. Southeast Missouri
23. Richmond
24. Wofford
25. Nothern Iowa

How long have those Dakota schools been FCS and could strong programs from Div2 move up to FCS again?

[onceacat]

I'm definitely in the minority here, but moving up isn't at all enticing to me. The only way it would be, is if, as Kenneth said, there is a G5 playoff. In which case it's a "move up" today, but we'd be right back where we were in the 90s and 2000s, playing against a bunch of former FCS schools. The added benefit would be competing against teams that have been FBS for a long time but got left behind. You can bet your butt the CFP is a Power 4 only playoff if the G5 adds their own playoff. The Power 4 doesn't need the G5 at all. We wouldn't have to worry about attendance numbers either because we wouldn't be going 10-2 every year and fighting for a playoff spot, at least not for awhile.

A big argument for moving up whenever given the opportunity is that if we were to wait until there was a G5 playoff it might be too late. The G5 might close the door and throw away the keys so they don't water down the revenue distributions at that point. If it's assumed that it will eventually happened we almost have to go as soon as someone asks us so that we're there for it. We might not go 10-2 every year but we'd still likely win at least 7-8 games and build from there.

I agree it might be too late, I'm just saying it's a tough sell for some fans, like me, to go up and hope we get to play in the Famoujs Idaho Potato Bowl until/if/when a G5 playoff materializes.

Let's say for arguments sake we move up and waffle between 7-8 wins a year for the first 5 years. Will support remain the way it is now with the team playing in the Tony the Tiger Sun Bowl or the Isleta New Mexico Bowl every year?

To be clear, I have zero desire to see the Cats play in those meaningless bowl games. But I'm a bit torn, because at the FCS level we are getting playoff games with the likes of NC Central, Drake, Austin Peay, Lafayette, Garner Webb, and Mercer. 24 teams in the playoffs, but only 5 or 6 with a legit chance to even reach the Semis...

Is that REALLY a lot better than the Spud Bowl?

I guess watch a spud bowl game in person and compare that with the NDSU or SDSU playoff atmosphere in Bozeman the past few years and then decide.

I'm not talking about NDSU/SDSU since they will be G5 sooner rather than later. I'm also not talking about Sam Houston (or JMU or Coastal Carolina in Missoula) since they are long gone too.

Once the DSUs leave, do you really think its going to be fun to beat up on Southeast Louisiana or Tarleton State?

Mercyhurst, Lendenwood, Bryant, Austin Peay, Southeastern Missouri, McNeese for OOC...

And UNCU, Cal Poly, Idaho State...

Man, talk about a compelling season of meaningless football.

How long do you think the Cats keep packing the stands for home and homes with Dixie State?

[onceacat]

Winning football games and being one of the best teams in the country is always fun. Watching my team go 7-5/8-4, regularly finishing 4th or 5th in the conference and playing in the LA Bowl presented by Gronk isn't. I'd be a Utah State fan if it was.

Personally I don't find it nearly as fun as it was 10, 15, 20 years ago to follow the FCS division because let's be honest - there's a 90% chance that when we make it to Frisco in January the two teams there are going to be some combination of NDSU, SDSU, MSU, and UM. Those four programs are just so much stronger and have such better resources and facilities than the rest of the division that it's almost unfair to everyone else at this point. I'd rather watch MSU go 7-5 against a better schedule than pay half of my season ticket money to watch MSU play snoozers against the likes of Maine, Mercyhurst, and Northern Colorado that are over by the end of the first quarter. But I'm sure we all have different views here, and if MSU receives an invite to move up the decision will be made from a much wider viewpoint of what's best for the university and athletics department as a whole than just what's best for the football team.

Yep. FCS football outside of the top 8 is just not very good.

[coloradocat]

As the P5, G5 and FCS are currently structured, count me firmly in the “no interest whatsoever in moving up” crowd.

I get there are plenty of benefits to it, tv deals, money for bowl appearances, etc. That is a very real part of the equation.

But purely from a fan perspective, I couldn’t care less about going 7-4 or 8-3 (in a good year after we build up to it), and getting some random bowl game that nobody outside of the two fanbase cares about, and then win or lose, your season is done after that one “post season” bowl game.

Playoffs are unmatched, the thrill of either losing and you’re done or winning and moving on and playing for the chance at a national championship is everything.

I’d rather be one of the top dogs vying for that championship than just another team that might get a bowl game that has absolutely no shot at sniffing a national championship.

Especially since we’ve been so close the last few years. The worst thing to me would be to be so close to a national championship like we have been, not winning one, then moving up and have zero shot at being in that position ever again.

Now if there is a restructuring of the whole thing where there are essentially 3 levels of D1 football that all have their own playoff system with a national championship at the end, then sign me up for that second tier all day long. I think the Cats deserve to be at the second level of D1, whatever that may look like. Right now, that is FCS.

My argument above was essentially that if we wait for what we want it may be too late. We'll never be in a position to make demands. We have to take what we can get (which as a reminder to everyone at this point is still nothing) when we can get it and hope that the future turns out how we want.

As far as going 7-4 or 8-3 and getting some random bowl that nobody outside of the two fanbases cares about, the benefit of this is that we'd be playing a full season schedule of equals, more or less, rather than 2/3 of it against (sometimes far) lower FCS tier teams. Sure, most of the country wouldn't care about our bowl game but that's no different than our current situation. Most of the FCS doesn't even care about the FCS playoffs because they never make it or when they do they have no shot.

[AFCAT]

I'm definitely in the minority here, but moving up isn't at all enticing to me. The only way it would be, is if, as Kenneth said, there is a G5 playoff. In which case it's a "move up" today, but we'd be right back where we were in the 90s and 2000s, playing against a bunch of former FCS schools. The added benefit would be competing against teams that have been FBS for a long time but got left behind. You can bet your butt the CFP is a Power 4 only playoff if the G5 adds their own playoff. The Power 4 doesn't need the G5 at all. We wouldn't have to worry about attendance numbers either because we wouldn't be going 10-2 every year and fighting for a playoff spot, at least not for awhile.

A big argument for moving up whenever given the opportunity is that if we were to wait until there was a G5 playoff it might be too late. The G5 might close the door and throw away the keys so they don't water down the revenue distributions at that point. If it's assumed that it will eventually happened we almost have to go as soon as someone asks us so that we're there for it. We might not go 10-2 every year but we'd still likely win at least 7-8 games and build from there.

I agree it might be too late, I'm just saying it's a tough sell for some fans, like me, to go up and hope we get to play in the Famoujs Idaho Potato Bowl until/if/when a G5 playoff materializes.

Let's say for arguments sake we move up and waffle between 7-8 wins a year for the first 5 years. Will support remain the way it is now with the team playing in the Tony the Tiger Sun Bowl or the Isleta New Mexico Bowl every year?

To be clear, I have zero desire to see the Cats play in those meaningless bowl games. But I'm a bit torn, because at the FCS level we are getting playoff games with the likes of NC Central, Drake, Austin Peay, Lafayette, Garner Webb, and Mercer. 24 teams in the playoffs, but only 5 or 6 with a legit chance to even reach the Semis...

Is that REALLY a lot better than the Spud Bowl?

I guess watch a spud bowl game in person and compare that with the NDSU or SDSU playoff atmosphere in Bozeman the past few years and then decide.

I'm not talking about NDSU/SDSU since they will be G5 sooner rather than later. I'm also not talking about Sam Houston (or JMU or Coastal Carolina in Missoula) since they are long gone too.

Once the DSUs leave, do you really think its going to be fun to beat up on Southeast Louisiana or Tarleton State?

Mercyhurst, Lendenwood, Bryant, Austin Peay, Southeastern Missouri, McNeese for OOC...

And UNCU, Cal Poly, Idaho State...

Man, talk about a compelling season of meaningless football.

How long do you think the Cats keep packing the stands for home and homes with Dixie State?

Well, we don't know for certain yet that any of those teams are leaving. The Cats are selling out every home game for years now, including against some of those that you wrote down. Those schools may be bad now but good competition down the road too.

I could ask you the same question. Do you believe it will be more exciting playing the dregs of the FBS then? Nevada (actually, that might be fun), New Mexico (pick one), Utah State, Hawaii, etc. etc.? MSU could also be the NCU, Utah Tech, Bryant, or Idaho State of the FBS if and when they move up, at least for quite a few years. How packed will the stands be for that period of time?

[coloradocat]

Winning football games and being one of the best teams in the country is always fun. Watching my team go 7-5/8-4, regularly finishing 4th or 5th in the conference and playing in the LA Bowl presented by Gronk isn't. I'd be a Utah State fan if it was.

Personally I don't find it nearly as fun as it was 10, 15, 20 years ago to follow the FCS division because let's be honest - there's a 90% chance that when we make it to Frisco in January the two teams there are going to be some combination of NDSU, SDSU, MSU, and UM. Those four programs are just so much stronger and have such better resources and facilities than the rest of the division that it's almost unfair to everyone else at this point. I'd rather watch MSU go 7-5 against a better schedule than pay half of my season ticket money to watch MSU play snoozers against the likes of Maine, Mercyhurst, and Northern Colorado that are over by the end of the first quarter. But I'm sure we all have different views here, and if MSU receives an invite to move up the decision will be made from a much wider viewpoint of what's best for the university and athletics department as a whole than just what's best for the football team.

These two posts summarize probably >95% of BN. Either you want to go 10-2 or better every year with a deep playoff run regardless of how bad the competition is, or you are ok losing a few more games with a good shot at a bowl game as long as the competition is comparable to the Bobcats (plus the possibility of a future G5 playoff).

[Cataholic]

The G5 has been talking about a playoff structure for months. This was already discussed in a previous forum. Can we please discard the argument about playing in crappy bowl games at the end of the season? Here are a couple of articles.

https://herosports.com/fbs-group-of-fiv ... ason-cpcp/

https://nevadasportsnet.com/newsletter- ... off-system

[Cataholic]

My take as a former player and active bobcat follower out of state.

If Montana State can get an invite they need to take it. FCS is dying. Many of our on field peers need FBS play up games to survive. FBS teams with super conferences are going away from playing FCS teams. What will the Northern Colorado, Eastern Washington, Idaho States of the world look like if they don’t collect FBS play up money?

The landscape has changed. The teams we have seen with administration and fan support have thrived. Look at Appalachian State and James Madison. At what point do we strive to compete with programs that have similar support. Do we really think playing Utah Tech and NAU in front of 5k is exciting?

I hear the argument that people want to compete for national championships. But to the average fan they’re more invested in bowl season than the fcs national championship. The average college fan doesn’t not care for FCS football. Bringing in schools like Wyoming and Utah State will attract more eyes to the program. Beating up on Mercyhurst and Maine isn’t appealing. At some point we as a program need to take the risk and make the jump.

This is spot on!

[coloradocat]

My take as a former player and active bobcat follower out of state.

If Montana State can get an invite they need to take it. FCS is dying. Many of our on field peers need FBS play up games to survive. FBS teams with super conferences are going away from playing FCS teams. What will the Northern Colorado, Eastern Washington, Idaho States of the world look like if they don’t collect FBS play up money?

The landscape has changed. The teams we have seen with administration and fan support have thrived. Look at Appalachian State and James Madison. At what point do we strive to compete with programs that have similar support. Do we really think playing Utah Tech and NAU in front of 5k is exciting?

I hear the argument that people want to compete for national championships. But to the average fan they’re more invested in bowl season than the fcs national championship. The average college fan doesn’t not care for FCS football. Bringing in schools like Wyoming and Utah State will attract more eyes to the program. Beating up on Mercyhurst and Maine isn’t appealing. At some point we as a program need to take the risk and make the jump.

To add to your argument, when we move up we should be able to expect at least some uptick in donations from new donors. We're big time nobodies nationally right now but if we move up to the FBS, even towards to bottom, we're now at least connected to the national conversation and there are likely donors that will want to be attached to that. Plus, the hesitancy to move up and instead stay where we're comfortable at/near the top of the FCS is likely isolated mostly to native Montanans. With the huge growth in out of state students, I bet a lot of them will be more likely to donate when they have the money if we're in the FBS and playing other FBS teams regularly.

[Cataholic]

https://knightnewhousedata.org/fbs/mwc

Upping the AD revenue (by double it looks like to me) would be one of the major issues to be competitive at the MW level.

MW TV deal is $3.5 million per team so most of the increase is going to have to come from raising prices I would assume?

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the #1 source of revenue is from taxpayer support. I don't see Helena helping on that front. #2 (I think) is donor support, and at least right now MSU/UM don't have the same 'whales' as most of the bigger schools (other than that one guy out west)

Government/institutional support may be #1 but it's less than 50%. I could see Helena bumping it up a little but not much.

And these figures are easily manipulated. Each school can calculate their institutional support by their own formula and are super complex. For example, the new BAC houses a clinic for Bozeman Healthcare. Does that revenue (if there is rental paid) go to the football program, or MSU athletics or the university. A simple change to the classification could make the income statement look different.

Another example is with student fees. If MSU and UM have the same student fee (assume $100 per student for this example) and the same football budget (assume $2 million), the percentage of support will vary drastically with the enrollment figure. If UM has 8,000 students, the revenue from student fees is $800,000 or 40% of budget. If MSU has 16,000 students, the revenue generated is $1.6 million or 80% of budget.

My point is that these numbers need more analysis and I expect MSU is in a better position to increase the athletic budget.

[Cataholic]

https://knightnewhousedata.org/fbs/mwc

Upping the AD revenue (by double it looks like to me) would be one of the major issues to be competitive at the MW level.

MW TV deal is $3.5 million per team so most of the increase is going to have to come from raising prices I would assume?

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the #1 source of revenue is from taxpayer support. I don't see Helena helping on that front. #2 (I think) is donor support, and at least right now MSU/UM don't have the same 'whales' as most of the bigger schools (other than that one guy out west)

Government/institutional support may be #1 but it's less than 50%. I could see Helena bumping it up a little but not much.

And these figures are easily manipulated. Each school can calculate their institutional support by their own formula and are super complex. For example, the new BAC houses a clinic for Bozeman Healthcare. Does that revenue (if there is rental paid) go to the football program, or MSU athletics or the university. A simple change to the classification could make the income statement look different.

Another example is with student fees. If MSU and UM have the same student fee (assume $100 per student for this example) and the same football budget (assume $2 million), the percentage of support will vary drastically with the enrollment figure. If UM has 8,000 students, the revenue from student fees is $800,000 or 40% of budget. If MSU has 16,000 students, the revenue generated is $1.6 million or 80% of budget.

My point is that these numbers need more analysis and I expect MSU is in a better position to increase the athletic budget.

I had mentioned this before that other impacts on the university should be taken into account when delving into the financial analysis. A move up is expected to bring greater national exposure and should lead to more national recognition and growth. If MSU grows enrollment by 1,000 over 5 years (200 per year) simply due greater exposure, that results in another $20 million in annual tuition revenue to the university (used $20,000 for annual tuition assuming some out of state students). That is significant growth and some of that should be used to support the move up.

[AFCAT]

My take as a former player and active bobcat follower out of state.

If Montana State can get an invite they need to take it. FCS is dying. Many of our on field peers need FBS play up games to survive. FBS teams with super conferences are going away from playing FCS teams. What will the Northern Colorado, Eastern Washington, Idaho States of the world look like if they don’t collect FBS play up money?

The landscape has changed. The teams we have seen with administration and fan support have thrived. Look at Appalachian State and James Madison. At what point do we strive to compete with programs that have similar support. Do we really think playing Utah Tech and NAU in front of 5k is exciting?

I hear the argument that people want to compete for national championships. But to the average fan they’re more invested in bowl season than the fcs national championship. The average college fan doesn’t not care for FCS football. Bringing in schools like Wyoming and Utah State will attract more eyes to the program. Beating up on Mercyhurst and Maine isn’t appealing. At some point we as a program need to take the risk and make the jump.

Let's not forget that many lower level FBS programs have to play money games to survive as well. Arizona paid the University of New Mexico $900K to play them this year. Auburn paid the University of New Mexico $1.85 million to play them. Nevada is playing money games this year too. Money games aren't only an FCS issue and will probably continue to be in MSUs future anyway, if they decide to move up or not.

I guarantee you that MSU will try to schedule easy win games to start the season regardless of which level they are playing at, just like MW teams do today. Not sure Mercyhurst is a good example, since it's an obvious outlier game scheduled due to SFA bailing in the Spring. Heck, you never know what could happen in these games, just ask EWU. They paid a non-scholly Drake to come in and beat them.

[Woodenshoe]

https://knightnewhousedata.org/fbs/mwc

Upping the AD revenue (by double it looks like to me) would be one of the major issues to be competitive at the MW level.

MW TV deal is $3.5 million per team so most of the increase is going to have to come from raising prices I would assume?

And my guess is the TV deal with MW moving forward will be less now that Boise State and the other schools are leaving.

[rivercat]

I don't believe anyone has brought up academic pier institutions. The Big Sky has 3 flagship universities (MSU, um, UI) two academically elite schools (UC Davis, Cal Poly, football only), three commuter schools (PSU, Weber, Sac), three directional schools (UNC, EWU, NAU), and Idaho St (not sure how to classify them). We are much more aligned academically with the schools in the MWC than most schools in the Big Sky. I think it is important for the future to align with other smaller, high research geographically significant institutions. You are who you hang out with.

If the opportunity presents itself, I truly hope that we push hard to align ourselves with the schools of the MWC.

[technoCat]

Just a reminder moving up means more than just Football. Might be nice to get higher than a 15 seed if we win the conference tournament in BB.

[BleedingBLue]

The G5 has been talking about a playoff structure for months. This was already discussed in a previous forum. Can we please discard the argument about playing in crappy bowl games at the end of the season? Here are a couple of articles.

https://herosports.com/fbs-group-of-fiv ... ason-cpcp/

https://nevadasportsnet.com/newsletter- ... off-system

Has it been approved yet? Is it a for sure thing? No, so why would that argument go away? The G5 has to decide if they ate ok being iced out of the CFP and becoming tier 2 DI.

[Prodigal Cat]