Discussing the Issues Removed

[wbtfg]

A little bit of a personal aside, I have a 12 year old son who plays sports. He's my oldest child, so every parenting experience I have with him is new to me.

One thing I've learned is that 12 is a really crazy age...especially when it comes to sports. My son is on the smaller side of average at 5 feet and 100lbs, as he hasn't hit puberty yet. This year he has competed with/against kids FAR bigger than him. The tallest of which is 6-3 (and has a moustache) and the heaviest kid was 225.

For my son who is 5 foot nothing, weighs 100 and nothing, and hasn't had a first voice crack yet, it's not at all a level playing field for him to be playing baseball/football/hockey/basketball against other 12 year olds with facial hair that are a foot taller and 100lbs heavier. Not to mention the kids who are a lot smaller that my son.

That said....that's sports. There isn't any use complaining about it or dwelling on it because there's absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. Everyone develops differently and someone can work/train harder than anyone else, but eventually almost everyone runs into an opponent who has a genetic advantage.

So has your son been training 7 days a week for the last 4 years working toward performing on the worlds largest stage? The potential payout for an Olympic medalist is huge nowadays and people have devoted years of their life to such a possibility. I am not sure that your comparison is applicable. I fully expect your son will catch up and be on a level playing field just a couple years from now.

Using your son’s situation though, let’s say he works his ass off and becomes a great athlete in a couple years. Then his senior year, a transfer comes in who has been using steroids to gain an advantage and knocks him from a starting lineup. I am guessing many girls feel this way when competing g against a transgender.

Right but neither of those apply to the case of this boxer.

Just like neither of those apply to my 12 year old kid who is competing with/against 12 year olds who are bigger than I am. That’s just life.

[TomCat88]

What if the biological women want to compete against biological men?

Should they start a new classification just for biological men that are taking sufficient amounts of female hormones?

You just can't help yourself, can you Tom? To put it bluntly - because "DEI progressives" seem to lack brain cells with any shred of logic in them - no. Because they'd seldom win a match/game/meet. There's nothing to be gained from it because the vast majority of biological females would be at a fundamental genetic disadvantage vs. biological males. The average male mammal is ALWAYS bigger, faster, and stronger than the female version of that mammal. At least that's what I learned in my non-woke biology classes.

In my opinion, one of the reasons males are now masquerading as females in sports is a particularly bad byproduct of the "participation trophy", weak-minded generation that was created by ensuring Little Johnny wasn't traumatized by losing a game. Millions of kids nowadays grow up now not knowing what it's like to lose and always "winning" as adolescents. This effects boys in particular, as males are genetically wired and driven by understanding winning and losing.

So when Little Johnny gets into his teenage years, can't hack it and isn't good enough to beat the best of his male peers - and doesn't like the taste of losing - one way to instantly increase the odds of winning is to "become" Little Jane and beat up on the girls. Sad that the woke DEI agenda has normalized such disgraceful behavior.

What is mind boggling to me is that the woke left is supposed to be a key supporter of women’s rights. As part of this agenda, they are supposed to protect women’s sports. But when Little Johnny wants to play against the women, they back Little Johnny? It makes no sense. Common sense says Little Johnny should play in his own division of similar ability competitors.

Just answer the questions without reading so much into it and quit with the name-calling already. That's exactly why there's not a DTI board anymore. This is the Smack Board, so I guess that makes it okay for you to try to group me into the left or right, or woke or misogynist, or tree-hugger or racist, but try not to, k? I'm a moderate btw and could literally care less about this issue. What's of interest to me is why anyone cares about it, so I'm asking these -- what I think are -- constructive questions.

The first question is relevant since there was once a time when some/most(?) white baseball players wanted to play against black baseball players and vice versa. So, I can see where women might want to compete against the biological males that have transitioned (or whatever it's called).

The second question deals with the biological males that have transitioned having a league of their own. There is also precedence for this as women once had a league of their own for baseball which became a movie called, "A League of Their Own" starring Tom Hanks.

My experience: my daughter used to love to play against boys in basketball (her teams actually beat several good boy's teams), so it's my experience that at some point women will want to compete against the best or better competition be it men who stay male or women who have transitioned from being male. Lots of examples of women/girls wanting to compete against men/boys (goes all the way back to the early 70s and even before that...BJK vs Riggs, Court vs Riggs; Babe Didriksen(sp?) I believe struck out 3 straight major league players, etc.), so why wouldn't they want to compete against males who have transitioned fully?

They could start a third division in the Olympics, but it's my experience that the women will eventually not like that and would rather include them in their level.

(keep in mind I could've said all kinds of smack in response to your responses, but I didn't; also, I left the Special Olympics out to keep the issue as simplified as possible as I thought that would muddy the waters, but they have their own classification(?) of Olympics)

[TomCat88]

Let's just go full fifth wave feminism and overturn the Jenny Crow laws. No more separate but equal. Everyone plays together. Everybody wants to be treated as equals, right?

Are you talking about employment or voting?

[coloradocat]

Let's just go full fifth wave feminism and overturn the Jenny Crow laws. No more separate but equal. Everyone plays together. Everybody wants to be treated as equals, right?

Are you talking about employment or voting?

It appears that one side of the wider argument wants males and females to compete against each other. I'm just taking that position to its logical conclusion using a historical analogy. Why treat women like second class citizens by having "girls only" leagues? They are just as skilled and competitive as men. To place them in a separate classification belittles their humanity. I don't understand why anyone would want to hold them back and stand in the way of progress and equality. Haven't we come far enough as a society to treat women the same as men?


Or could there possibly be a reason why there are separate sports leagues for females?

[TomCat88]

Let's just go full fifth wave feminism and overturn the Jenny Crow laws. No more separate but equal. Everyone plays together. Everybody wants to be treated as equals, right?

Are you talking about employment or voting?

It appears that one side of the wider argument wants males and females to compete against each other. I'm just taking that position to its logical conclusion using a historical analogy. Why treat women like second class citizens by having "girls only" leagues? They are just as skilled and competitive as men. To place them in a separate classification belittles their humanity. I don't understand why anyone would want to hold them back and stand in the way of progress and equality. Haven't we come far enough as a society to treat women the same as men?


Or could there possibly be a reason why there are separate sports leagues for females?

I think one big reason is because a majority of women, for now, want to have their own leagues. I don’t think anyone is forcing them to. There are a few instances where females are playing in mostly male leagues. I think some youth wrestling leagues have allowed girls and boys to wrestle (seems awkward but I’m pretty sure it’s the case) and some girls beat the boys regularly. Co-Ed leagues have been around for a while.

[coloradocat]

Let's just go full fifth wave feminism and overturn the Jenny Crow laws. No more separate but equal. Everyone plays together. Everybody wants to be treated as equals, right?

Are you talking about employment or voting?

It appears that one side of the wider argument wants males and females to compete against each other. I'm just taking that position to its logical conclusion using a historical analogy. Why treat women like second class citizens by having "girls only" leagues? They are just as skilled and competitive as men. To place them in a separate classification belittles their humanity. I don't understand why anyone would want to hold them back and stand in the way of progress and equality. Haven't we come far enough as a society to treat women the same as men?


Or could there possibly be a reason why there are separate sports leagues for females?

I think one big reason is because a majority of women, for now, want to have their own leagues. I don’t think anyone is forcing them to. There are a few instances where females are playing in mostly male leagues. I think some youth wrestling leagues have allowed girls and boys to wrestle (seems awkward but I’m pretty sure it’s the case) and some girls beat the boys regularly. Co-Ed leagues have been around for a while.

My youngest niece occasionally wrestles boys if there aren't enough girls but she's 10 and better than average for a girl her age. She somewhat holds her own but if she was another couple years older she'd get destroyed. Her younger brother is already stronger than her and she's more skilled. Her parents have to stop him from going to far when they wrestle each other. There may be isolated examples of girls competing with boys in a variety of sports but they dramatically drop off to practical non-existence in competitive sports (ie. not softball leagues) once puberty hits.

Instead of continuing to bring up the rare exceptions, why do you think women want their own leagues? You've covered sports in a professional capacity for a career. If any male on BN could answer this question it should be you. Or can you not because you're not allowed to say it? (This isn't an attack on you but on society and the general political leanings of your larger profession)

[TomCat88]

Let's just go full fifth wave feminism and overturn the Jenny Crow laws. No more separate but equal. Everyone plays together. Everybody wants to be treated as equals, right?

Are you talking about employment or voting?

It appears that one side of the wider argument wants males and females to compete against each other. I'm just taking that position to its logical conclusion using a historical analogy. Why treat women like second class citizens by having "girls only" leagues? They are just as skilled and competitive as men. To place them in a separate classification belittles their humanity. I don't understand why anyone would want to hold them back and stand in the way of progress and equality. Haven't we come far enough as a society to treat women the same as men?


Or could there possibly be a reason why there are separate sports leagues for females?

I think one big reason is because a majority of women, for now, want to have their own leagues. I don’t think anyone is forcing them to. There are a few instances where females are playing in mostly male leagues. I think some youth wrestling leagues have allowed girls and boys to wrestle (seems awkward but I’m pretty sure it’s the case) and some girls beat the boys regularly. Co-Ed leagues have been around for a while.

My youngest niece occasionally wrestles boys if there aren't enough girls but she's 10 and better than average for a girl her age. She somewhat holds her own but if she was another couple years older she'd get destroyed. Her younger brother is already stronger than her and she's more skilled. Her parents have to stop him from going to far when they wrestle each other. There may be isolated examples of girls competing with boys in a variety of sports but they dramatically drop off to practical non-existence in competitive sports (ie. not softball leagues) once puberty hits.

Instead of continuing to bring up the rare exceptions, why do you think women want their own leagues? You've covered sports in a professional capacity for a career. If any male on BN could answer this question it should be you. Or can you not because you're not allowed to say it? (This isn't an attack on you but on society and the general political leanings of your larger profession)

Yep, I agree with all of that. I brought up the rare exceptions because I don’t know you and was trying to establish a baseline for the discussion. You have great firsthand experience with this from the sounds of it.

I think if boys and girls are allowed to interact more in sports that it will speed up the progression of them being more equal at the top end of their sports.

I’m not always concerned with who wins. I’d love to see the, for instance girls AA hoop champion team play the boys AA hoop title team. I know who would win but I’d like to see it. It would interesting to see what progress would be made from Year 1 to Year 20 or something. I know that since 1970 to now progress has been made but I don’t have any game evidence to support that. It’s just my observation and opinion.

Women want their own leagues because of the spirit of competition most likely. Same reason there’s AA, A, B and C classifications. However, I think that girls teams would like to occasionally play boys teams just like hoop teams like to play up a class. Most FCS players like to play FBS teams from what I’m told.

[coloradocat]

Let's just go full fifth wave feminism and overturn the Jenny Crow laws. No more separate but equal. Everyone plays together. Everybody wants to be treated as equals, right?

Are you talking about employment or voting?

It appears that one side of the wider argument wants males and females to compete against each other. I'm just taking that position to its logical conclusion using a historical analogy. Why treat women like second class citizens by having "girls only" leagues? They are just as skilled and competitive as men. To place them in a separate classification belittles their humanity. I don't understand why anyone would want to hold them back and stand in the way of progress and equality. Haven't we come far enough as a society to treat women the same as men?


Or could there possibly be a reason why there are separate sports leagues for females?

I think one big reason is because a majority of women, for now, want to have their own leagues. I don’t think anyone is forcing them to. There are a few instances where females are playing in mostly male leagues. I think some youth wrestling leagues have allowed girls and boys to wrestle (seems awkward but I’m pretty sure it’s the case) and some girls beat the boys regularly. Co-Ed leagues have been around for a while.

My youngest niece occasionally wrestles boys if there aren't enough girls but she's 10 and better than average for a girl her age. She somewhat holds her own but if she was another couple years older she'd get destroyed. Her younger brother is already stronger than her and she's more skilled. Her parents have to stop him from going to far when they wrestle each other. There may be isolated examples of girls competing with boys in a variety of sports but they dramatically drop off to practical non-existence in competitive sports (ie. not softball leagues) once puberty hits.

Instead of continuing to bring up the rare exceptions, why do you think women want their own leagues? You've covered sports in a professional capacity for a career. If any male on BN could answer this question it should be you. Or can you not because you're not allowed to say it? (This isn't an attack on you but on society and the general political leanings of your larger profession)

Yep, I agree with all of that. I brought up the rare exceptions because I don’t know you and was trying to establish a baseline for the discussion. You have great firsthand experience with this from the sounds of it.

I think if boys and girls are allowed to interact more in sports that it will speed up the progression of them being more equal at the top end of their sports.

I’m not always concerned with who wins. I’d love to see the, for instance girls AA hoop champion team play the boys AA hoop title team. I know who would win but I’d like to see it. It would interesting to see what progress would be made from Year 1 to Year 20 or something. I know that since 1970 to now progress has been made but I don’t have any game evidence to support that. It’s just my observation and opinion.

I hope you get your wish some day and the state champion girls play against the state champion boys and both sides take it seriously and give 100% effort.

I can see that you have no interest in discussing the topic at hand. If anyone else is actually interested, feel free to start a new comment string and I may participate.

[Cataholic]

What if the biological women want to compete against biological men?

Should they start a new classification just for biological men that are taking sufficient amounts of female hormones?

You just can't help yourself, can you Tom? To put it bluntly - because "DEI progressives" seem to lack brain cells with any shred of logic in them - no. Because they'd seldom win a match/game/meet. There's nothing to be gained from it because the vast majority of biological females would be at a fundamental genetic disadvantage vs. biological males. The average male mammal is ALWAYS bigger, faster, and stronger than the female version of that mammal. At least that's what I learned in my non-woke biology classes.

In my opinion, one of the reasons males are now masquerading as females in sports is a particularly bad byproduct of the "participation trophy", weak-minded generation that was created by ensuring Little Johnny wasn't traumatized by losing a game. Millions of kids nowadays grow up now not knowing what it's like to lose and always "winning" as adolescents. This effects boys in particular, as males are genetically wired and driven by understanding winning and losing.

So when Little Johnny gets into his teenage years, can't hack it and isn't good enough to beat the best of his male peers - and doesn't like the taste of losing - one way to instantly increase the odds of winning is to "become" Little Jane and beat up on the girls. Sad that the woke DEI agenda has normalized such disgraceful behavior.

What is mind boggling to me is that the woke left is supposed to be a key supporter of women’s rights. As part of this agenda, they are supposed to protect women’s sports. But when Little Johnny wants to play against the women, they back Little Johnny? It makes no sense. Common sense says Little Johnny should play in his own division of similar ability competitors.

Just answer the questions without reading so much into it and quit with the name-calling already. That's exactly why there's not a DTI board anymore. This is the Smack Board, so I guess that makes it okay for you to try to group me into the left or right, or woke or misogynist, or tree-hugger or racist, but try not to, k? I'm a moderate btw and could literally care less about this issue. What's of interest to me is why anyone cares about it, so I'm asking these -- what I think are -- constructive questions.

The first question is relevant since there was once a time when some/most(?) white baseball players wanted to play against black baseball players and vice versa. So, I can see where women might want to compete against the biological males that have transitioned (or whatever it's called).

The second question deals with the biological males that have transitioned having a league of their own. There is also precedence for this as women once had a league of their own for baseball which became a movie called, "A League of Their Own" starring Tom Hanks.

My experience: my daughter used to love to play against boys in basketball (her teams actually beat several good boy's teams), so it's my experience that at some point women will want to compete against the best or better competition be it men who stay male or women who have transitioned from being male. Lots of examples of women/girls wanting to compete against men/boys (goes all the way back to the early 70s and even before that...BJK vs Riggs, Court vs Riggs; Babe Didriksen(sp?) I believe struck out 3 straight major league players, etc.), so why wouldn't they want to compete against males who have transitioned fully?

They could start a third division in the Olympics, but it's my experience that the women will eventually not like that and would rather include them in their level.

(keep in mind I could've said all kinds of smack in response to your responses, but I didn't; also, I left the Special Olympics out to keep the issue as simplified as possible as I thought that would muddy the waters, but they have their own classification(?) of Olympics)

WTF? I hope your response wasn’t directed at me.

[Cataholic]

Let's just go full fifth wave feminism and overturn the Jenny Crow laws. No more separate but equal. Everyone plays together. Everybody wants to be treated as equals, right?

Are you talking about employment or voting?

It appears that one side of the wider argument wants males and females to compete against each other. I'm just taking that position to its logical conclusion using a historical analogy. Why treat women like second class citizens by having "girls only" leagues? They are just as skilled and competitive as men. To place them in a separate classification belittles their humanity. I don't understand why anyone would want to hold them back and stand in the way of progress and equality. Haven't we come far enough as a society to treat women the same as men?


Or could there possibly be a reason why there are separate sports leagues for females?

I think one big reason is because a majority of women, for now, want to have their own leagues. I don’t think anyone is forcing them to. There are a few instances where females are playing in mostly male leagues. I think some youth wrestling leagues have allowed girls and boys to wrestle (seems awkward but I’m pretty sure it’s the case) and some girls beat the boys regularly. Co-Ed leagues have been around for a while.

My youngest niece occasionally wrestles boys if there aren't enough girls but she's 10 and better than average for a girl her age. She somewhat holds her own but if she was another couple years older she'd get destroyed. Her younger brother is already stronger than her and she's more skilled. Her parents have to stop him from going to far when they wrestle each other. There may be isolated examples of girls competing with boys in a variety of sports but they dramatically drop off to practical non-existence in competitive sports (ie. not softball leagues) once puberty hits.

Instead of continuing to bring up the rare exceptions, why do you think women want their own leagues? You've covered sports in a professional capacity for a career. If any male on BN could answer this question it should be you. Or can you not because you're not allowed to say it? (This isn't an attack on you but on society and the general political leanings of your larger profession)

Yep, I agree with all of that. I brought up the rare exceptions because I don’t know you and was trying to establish a baseline for the discussion. You have great firsthand experience with this from the sounds of it.

I think if boys and girls are allowed to interact more in sports that it will speed up the progression of them being more equal at the top end of their sports.

I’m not always concerned with who wins. I’d love to see the, for instance girls AA hoop champion team play the boys AA hoop title team. I know who would win but I’d like to see it. It would interesting to see what progress would be made from Year 1 to Year 20 or something. I know that since 1970 to now progress has been made but I don’t have any game evidence to support that. It’s just my observation and opinion.

I hope you get your wish some day and the state champion girls play against the state champion boys and both sides take it seriously and give 100% effort.

I can see that you have no interest in discussing the topic at hand. If anyone else is actually interested, feel free to start a new comment string and I may participate.

Tom’s position is just way off. Most of the AA boys high school freshman teams would beat their high schools girls varsity teams. Freshman boys have faster 100 times than most of the varsity girls. There are exceptions to the norm, but the vast majority would fall into this category.

Even the whole sport of boxing has the common sense to have weight classes for fighters. It is not a free for all where anybody can fight anyone. The same rationale applies to men vs women.

I believe Tom is a supporter of women’s sports, but his crazy theory goes against providing every girl an opportunity to play sports.

[TomCat88]

Let's just go full fifth wave feminism and overturn the Jenny Crow laws. No more separate but equal. Everyone plays together. Everybody wants to be treated as equals, right?

Are you talking about employment or voting?

It appears that one side of the wider argument wants males and females to compete against each other. I'm just taking that position to its logical conclusion using a historical analogy. Why treat women like second class citizens by having "girls only" leagues? They are just as skilled and competitive as men. To place them in a separate classification belittles their humanity. I don't understand why anyone would want to hold them back and stand in the way of progress and equality. Haven't we come far enough as a society to treat women the same as men?


Or could there possibly be a reason why there are separate sports leagues for females?

I think one big reason is because a majority of women, for now, want to have their own leagues. I don’t think anyone is forcing them to. There are a few instances where females are playing in mostly male leagues. I think some youth wrestling leagues have allowed girls and boys to wrestle (seems awkward but I’m pretty sure it’s the case) and some girls beat the boys regularly. Co-Ed leagues have been around for a while.

My youngest niece occasionally wrestles boys if there aren't enough girls but she's 10 and better than average for a girl her age. She somewhat holds her own but if she was another couple years older she'd get destroyed. Her younger brother is already stronger than her and she's more skilled. Her parents have to stop him from going to far when they wrestle each other. There may be isolated examples of girls competing with boys in a variety of sports but they dramatically drop off to practical non-existence in competitive sports (ie. not softball leagues) once puberty hits.

Instead of continuing to bring up the rare exceptions, why do you think women want their own leagues? You've covered sports in a professional capacity for a career. If any male on BN could answer this question it should be you. Or can you not because you're not allowed to say it? (This isn't an attack on you but on society and the general political leanings of your larger profession)

Yep, I agree with all of that. I brought up the rare exceptions because I don’t know you and was trying to establish a baseline for the discussion. You have great firsthand experience with this from the sounds of it.

I think if boys and girls are allowed to interact more in sports that it will speed up the progression of them being more equal at the top end of their sports.

I’m not always concerned with who wins. I’d love to see the, for instance girls AA hoop champion team play the boys AA hoop title team. I know who would win but I’d like to see it. It would interesting to see what progress would be made from Year 1 to Year 20 or something. I know that since 1970 to now progress has been made but I don’t have any game evidence to support that. It’s just my observation and opinion.

I hope you get your wish some day and the state champion girls play against the state champion boys and both sides take it seriously and give 100% effort.

I can see that you have no interest in discussing the topic at hand. If anyone else is actually interested, feel free to start a new comment string and I may participate.

Interesting. I thought we were having a good conversation. Oh well, I’ll bail out.

[TomCat88]

Let's just go full fifth wave feminism and overturn the Jenny Crow laws. No more separate but equal. Everyone plays together. Everybody wants to be treated as equals, right?

Are you talking about employment or voting?

It appears that one side of the wider argument wants males and females to compete against each other. I'm just taking that position to its logical conclusion using a historical analogy. Why treat women like second class citizens by having "girls only" leagues? They are just as skilled and competitive as men. To place them in a separate classification belittles their humanity. I don't understand why anyone would want to hold them back and stand in the way of progress and equality. Haven't we come far enough as a society to treat women the same as men?


Or could there possibly be a reason why there are separate sports leagues for females?

I think one big reason is because a majority of women, for now, want to have their own leagues. I don’t think anyone is forcing them to. There are a few instances where females are playing in mostly male leagues. I think some youth wrestling leagues have allowed girls and boys to wrestle (seems awkward but I’m pretty sure it’s the case) and some girls beat the boys regularly. Co-Ed leagues have been around for a while.

My youngest niece occasionally wrestles boys if there aren't enough girls but she's 10 and better than average for a girl her age. She somewhat holds her own but if she was another couple years older she'd get destroyed. Her younger brother is already stronger than her and she's more skilled. Her parents have to stop him from going to far when they wrestle each other. There may be isolated examples of girls competing with boys in a variety of sports but they dramatically drop off to practical non-existence in competitive sports (ie. not softball leagues) once puberty hits.

Instead of continuing to bring up the rare exceptions, why do you think women want their own leagues? You've covered sports in a professional capacity for a career. If any male on BN could answer this question it should be you. Or can you not because you're not allowed to say it? (This isn't an attack on you but on society and the general political leanings of your larger profession)

Yep, I agree with all of that. I brought up the rare exceptions because I don’t know you and was trying to establish a baseline for the discussion. You have great firsthand experience with this from the sounds of it.

I think if boys and girls are allowed to interact more in sports that it will speed up the progression of them being more equal at the top end of their sports.

I’m not always concerned with who wins. I’d love to see the, for instance girls AA hoop champion team play the boys AA hoop title team. I know who would win but I’d like to see it. It would interesting to see what progress would be made from Year 1 to Year 20 or something. I know that since 1970 to now progress has been made but I don’t have any game evidence to support that. It’s just my observation and opinion.

I hope you get your wish some day and the state champion girls play against the state champion boys and both sides take it seriously and give 100% effort.

I can see that you have no interest in discussing the topic at hand. If anyone else is actually interested, feel free to start a new comment string and I may participate.

Tom’s position is just way off. Most of the AA boys high school freshman teams would beat their high schools girls varsity teams. Freshman boys have faster 100 times than most of the varsity girls. There are exceptions to the norm, but the vast majority would fall into this category.

Even the whole sport of boxing has the common sense to have weight classes for fighters. It is not a free for all where anybody can fight anyone. The same rationale applies to men vs women.

I believe Tom is a supporter of women’s sports, but his crazy theory goes against providing every girl an opportunity to play sports.

I agree with you on that but like I said, I’m not always concerned with who wins. If the girls don’t want to do it, that’s fine by me. I think it’d be interesting to see how much they’ve improved.

I’m not a big fan of girls sports or a big fan in general. I’m a fan of MSU, the school, but I am not a fan in the typical sense. If I were, I wouldn’t cover their games.

The most important thing about sports is they aren’t important. I’m a fan of that quote.

[tdub]

The most important thing about sports is they aren’t important. I’m a fan of that quote.

Side bar to the main topic. I’ve seen you post this a lot of times over the years. From the surface, I get what you’re saying. But reality is that sports are extremely important. I’m focusing on youth through high school when I say this. The only aspect that isn’t really important is WHO wins or loses. The fact that there are wins and losses is vital. Sports are an under-appreciated piece of development of a person. Learning through sport to apply to life. It is important that kids lose. It’s important that kids win. Both have strong impact on the growth of an individual. The best coaches know this and apply this. Which is where unfortunately youth sports has taken such a bad turn with club, travel, academies…the best purpose of youth sports is getting lost and replaced with what is least important.

The higher the level beyond high school, the closer it gets to the only real “importance” is money. Wins = $$

[Cataholic]

Let's just go full fifth wave feminism and overturn the Jenny Crow laws. No more separate but equal. Everyone plays together. Everybody wants to be treated as equals, right?

Are you talking about employment or voting?

It appears that one side of the wider argument wants males and females to compete against each other. I'm just taking that position to its logical conclusion using a historical analogy. Why treat women like second class citizens by having "girls only" leagues? They are just as skilled and competitive as men. To place them in a separate classification belittles their humanity. I don't understand why anyone would want to hold them back and stand in the way of progress and equality. Haven't we come far enough as a society to treat women the same as men?


Or could there possibly be a reason why there are separate sports leagues for females?

I think one big reason is because a majority of women, for now, want to have their own leagues. I don’t think anyone is forcing them to. There are a few instances where females are playing in mostly male leagues. I think some youth wrestling leagues have allowed girls and boys to wrestle (seems awkward but I’m pretty sure it’s the case) and some girls beat the boys regularly. Co-Ed leagues have been around for a while.

My youngest niece occasionally wrestles boys if there aren't enough girls but she's 10 and better than average for a girl her age. She somewhat holds her own but if she was another couple years older she'd get destroyed. Her younger brother is already stronger than her and she's more skilled. Her parents have to stop him from going to far when they wrestle each other. There may be isolated examples of girls competing with boys in a variety of sports but they dramatically drop off to practical non-existence in competitive sports (ie. not softball leagues) once puberty hits.

Instead of continuing to bring up the rare exceptions, why do you think women want their own leagues? You've covered sports in a professional capacity for a career. If any male on BN could answer this question it should be you. Or can you not because you're not allowed to say it? (This isn't an attack on you but on society and the general political leanings of your larger profession)

Yep, I agree with all of that. I brought up the rare exceptions because I don’t know you and was trying to establish a baseline for the discussion. You have great firsthand experience with this from the sounds of it.

I think if boys and girls are allowed to interact more in sports that it will speed up the progression of them being more equal at the top end of their sports.

I’m not always concerned with who wins. I’d love to see the, for instance girls AA hoop champion team play the boys AA hoop title team. I know who would win but I’d like to see it. It would interesting to see what progress would be made from Year 1 to Year 20 or something. I know that since 1970 to now progress has been made but I don’t have any game evidence to support that. It’s just my observation and opinion.

I hope you get your wish some day and the state champion girls play against the state champion boys and both sides take it seriously and give 100% effort.

I can see that you have no interest in discussing the topic at hand. If anyone else is actually interested, feel free to start a new comment string and I may participate.

Tom’s position is just way off. Most of the AA boys high school freshman teams would beat their high schools girls varsity teams. Freshman boys have faster 100 times than most of the varsity girls. There are exceptions to the norm, but the vast majority would fall into this category.

Even the whole sport of boxing has the common sense to have weight classes for fighters. It is not a free for all where anybody can fight anyone. The same rationale applies to men vs women.

I believe Tom is a supporter of women’s sports, but his crazy theory goes against providing every girl an opportunity to play sports.

I agree with you on that but like I said, I’m not always concerned with who wins. If the girls don’t want to do it, that’s fine by me. I think it’d be interesting to see how much they’ve improved.

I’m not a big fan of girls sports or a big fan in general. I’m a fan of MSU, the school, but I am not a fan in the typical sense. If I were, I wouldn’t cover their games.

The most important thing about sports is they aren’t important. I’m a fan of that quote.

I understand your take, but don’t necessarily agree with all of it. Taught in the correct way, sports can be very important. It teaches teamwork, sportsmanship, work ethic, winning is not everything, etc. Would society in general be a little better if everyone followed the adage: “hard work will pay dividends”. It can be applied to everything in life.

In one context though, it really doesn’t matter if the MSU Bobcats win or if the Seattle Mariners will ever get to the World Series. The world goes on my life will not change as a result of the W or L. But let’s not forget the importance of sport in other aspects. I bet your kids are more prepared for life’s journey as a result of their experiences in sports.

[TomCat88]

Let's just go full fifth wave feminism and overturn the Jenny Crow laws. No more separate but equal. Everyone plays together. Everybody wants to be treated as equals, right?

Are you talking about employment or voting?

It appears that one side of the wider argument wants males and females to compete against each other. I'm just taking that position to its logical conclusion using a historical analogy. Why treat women like second class citizens by having "girls only" leagues? They are just as skilled and competitive as men. To place them in a separate classification belittles their humanity. I don't understand why anyone would want to hold them back and stand in the way of progress and equality. Haven't we come far enough as a society to treat women the same as men?


Or could there possibly be a reason why there are separate sports leagues for females?

I think one big reason is because a majority of women, for now, want to have their own leagues. I don’t think anyone is forcing them to. There are a few instances where females are playing in mostly male leagues. I think some youth wrestling leagues have allowed girls and boys to wrestle (seems awkward but I’m pretty sure it’s the case) and some girls beat the boys regularly. Co-Ed leagues have been around for a while.

My youngest niece occasionally wrestles boys if there aren't enough girls but she's 10 and better than average for a girl her age. She somewhat holds her own but if she was another couple years older she'd get destroyed. Her younger brother is already stronger than her and she's more skilled. Her parents have to stop him from going to far when they wrestle each other. There may be isolated examples of girls competing with boys in a variety of sports but they dramatically drop off to practical non-existence in competitive sports (ie. not softball leagues) once puberty hits.

Instead of continuing to bring up the rare exceptions, why do you think women want their own leagues? You've covered sports in a professional capacity for a career. If any male on BN could answer this question it should be you. Or can you not because you're not allowed to say it? (This isn't an attack on you but on society and the general political leanings of your larger profession)

Yep, I agree with all of that. I brought up the rare exceptions because I don’t know you and was trying to establish a baseline for the discussion. You have great firsthand experience with this from the sounds of it.

I think if boys and girls are allowed to interact more in sports that it will speed up the progression of them being more equal at the top end of their sports.

I’m not always concerned with who wins. I’d love to see the, for instance girls AA hoop champion team play the boys AA hoop title team. I know who would win but I’d like to see it. It would interesting to see what progress would be made from Year 1 to Year 20 or something. I know that since 1970 to now progress has been made but I don’t have any game evidence to support that. It’s just my observation and opinion.

I hope you get your wish some day and the state champion girls play against the state champion boys and both sides take it seriously and give 100% effort.

I can see that you have no interest in discussing the topic at hand. If anyone else is actually interested, feel free to start a new comment string and I may participate.

Tom’s position is just way off. Most of the AA boys high school freshman teams would beat their high schools girls varsity teams. Freshman boys have faster 100 times than most of the varsity girls. There are exceptions to the norm, but the vast majority would fall into this category.

Even the whole sport of boxing has the common sense to have weight classes for fighters. It is not a free for all where anybody can fight anyone. The same rationale applies to men vs women.

I believe Tom is a supporter of women’s sports, but his crazy theory goes against providing every girl an opportunity to play sports.

I agree with you on that but like I said, I’m not always concerned with who wins. If the girls don’t want to do it, that’s fine by me. I think it’d be interesting to see how much they’ve improved.

I’m not a big fan of girls sports or a big fan in general. I’m a fan of MSU, the school, but I am not a fan in the typical sense. If I were, I wouldn’t cover their games.

The most important thing about sports is they aren’t important. I’m a fan of that quote.

I understand your take, but don’t necessarily agree with all of it. Taught in the correct way, sports can be very important. It teaches teamwork, sportsmanship, work ethic, winning is not everything, etc. Would society in general be a little better if everyone followed the adage: “hard work will pay dividends”. It can be applied to everything in life.

In one context though, it really doesn’t matter if the MSU Bobcats win or if the Seattle Mariners will ever get to the World Series. The world goes on my life will not change as a result of the W or L. But let’s not forget the importance of sport in other aspects. I bet your kids are more prepared for life’s journey as a result of their experiences in sports.

I didn’t say those things aren’t important. I said the ‘most’ important thing is that it’s not important.

[TomCat88]

The most important thing about sports is they aren’t important. I’m a fan of that quote.

Side bar to the main topic. I’ve seen you post this a lot of times over the years. From the surface, I get what you’re saying. But reality is that sports are extremely important. I’m focusing on youth through high school when I say this. The only aspect that isn’t really important is WHO wins or loses. The fact that there are wins and losses is vital. Sports are an under-appreciated piece of development of a person. Learning through sport to apply to life. It is important that kids lose. It’s important that kids win. Both have strong impact on the growth of an individual. The best coaches know this and apply this. Which is where unfortunately youth sports has taken such a bad turn with club, travel, academies…the best purpose of youth sports is getting lost and replaced with what is least important.

The higher the level beyond high school, the closer it gets to the only real “importance” is money. Wins = $$

The “most” important thing is that they aren’t important. A sport itself isn’t important, however, there are things you can learn in sports that are important but you can probably learn those things elsewhere. Sports are good and wholesome and fun, and that’s important.

The quote is about how fans/players react to losing or winning. It isn’t that big of a deal ergo it’s not important. It’s most important to remember that lest you let it harm your well being and the well being of others. I think Super Bowl Sunday has the most domestic abuse of any day of the year in the USA.

[RickRund]

I was following along until you brought up the Seattle Mariners

[TomCat88]

An interesting side note about what I believe wbtfg touched on earlier is that when the Russians booted her out of the competition there, it was after she beat a Russian that was undefeated. They had actually tested her before the two fought and then "coincidentally" found that she had tested positive, or whatever, and restored their boxer's undefeated record. Yay, Russia! I do feel sorry for Russian athletes. So many great athletes that have had their accomplishments tainted for a whole host of things and now this. Thought I'd seen it all.

The fact the Russians did this fed into this faux controversy and played a big role in getting a bunch of people riled up and at each other's throats all across the world.

[Cataholic]

An interesting side note about what I believe wbtfg touched on earlier is that when the Russians booted her out of the competition there, it was after she beat a Russian that was undefeated. They had actually tested her before the two fought and then "coincidentally" found that she had tested positive, or whatever, and restored their boxer's undefeated record. Yay, Russia! I do feel sorry for Russian athletes. So many great athletes that have had their accomplishments tainted for a whole host of things and now this. Thought I'd seen it all.

The fact the Russians did this fed into this faux controversy and played a big role in getting a bunch of people riled up and at each other's throats all across the world.

You think this whole thing about the boxers having xy chromosomes is made up?

[coloradocat]

An interesting side note about what I believe wbtfg touched on earlier is that when the Russians booted her out of the competition there, it was after she beat a Russian that was undefeated. They had actually tested her before the two fought and then "coincidentally" found that she had tested positive, or whatever, and restored their boxer's undefeated record. Yay, Russia! I do feel sorry for Russian athletes. So many great athletes that have had their accomplishments tainted for a whole host of things and now this. Thought I'd seen it all.

The fact the Russians did this fed into this faux controversy and played a big role in getting a bunch of people riled up and at each other's throats all across the world.

You think this whole thing about the boxers having xy chromosomes is made up?

If all else fails, blame it on the Russians.