EWU Offense

[coochorama42]

I disagree with much of what you posted, but you did point out something that I've highlighted a couple times. MSU is the better team. I happen to believe MSU has the advantage on both sides of the ball, but I imagine I'm in the very small minority on this one.

As for the strategies MSU will choose to deploy, I stand by what I've posted. Set the table early (offensively) so you can focus on your strengths late (Ifanse, McCutcheon, and a little Mellott). Invite EWU to run the football (defensively) and be patient in the passing game. (Almost) never rush more than four.

I absolutely disagree with the idea that you change your in-game tendencies (fearing the punt) as THAT is the trap in my opinion. If MSU is the better team (as we both seem to believe), force them to adapt to win.

Literally no one suggested punting by design. I suggested a philosophy by which the staff recognize punting for what it is: a turnover.

A turnover gives EWU the chance to score. Ergo, avoid turnovers EXCEPT the turnovers that occur because you scored a TD.

Our coaching staff has been remarkably chill with the concept of rushing Ifanse between the tackles on 3rd & medium, and trusting the punt coverage & D to eventually flip the field position. As Cledus points out, that's a trap that EWU is setting for us.

Both teams get the same number of possessions. So limiting EWUs possessions ALSO means we limit our own possessions. Since the Delta between our D and EWUs O is really small, and the delta between our O and EWUs D is larger, it makes strategic sense to INCREASE possessions. Because we should score ore points per possession than EWU.

The math on that is really easy. But its not conventional wisdom.

[BelligerentBobcat]

100% this. The delta between our "good" offense and their "pretty good" defense is bigger than the delta between our elite D and their elite O.

Which means that a high possession game favors our offense.

I wasn't suggesting that the Cats go for it on 4th & 20 on their own 15. But with 3rd & 8 at the 50, it should be 4 down territory.

When people talk "ball control" and "chewing the clock" generally they mean the sort of offensive game the Cats played in Ogden. Maybe its supposed to mean something else on this thread. I think that the EWU D is primed for that sort of game plan...its really easy to defend & a limited number of drives plays into EWUs hands-because as you point out, they have a tendency to go cold for long stretches, even against defenses less quality that ours (see the WIU game for example) and because EB takes a lot of high risk, high reward sort of shots.

So if the Cats can put the Eagles back on their heels (and I'm agnostic about if the offensive plan should be 3 yards and a cloud of dust, or a hurry up power run game, or mixing up a steady dose of Ifanse with some big shots down the field) by getting a 2 score lead, then holding out until the Eagles O goes cold, its all good.

But, back to the original point, a high possession game should lend itself to the Cats favor because 1) the delta between our O and their D and 2) their tendency to go cold/take big risks.

I explicitly told you that that's not at all what was being suggested pages ago.

Did you miss it, or is it easier to just put words in other people's mouth?

I think the underlying issue is that usually ball control offenses are willing to punt the ball & play field position. If you are playing ball control & trying to limit EWUs possessions, you have to complete drives. EWU goes 3 & out A LOT. They just do it fast. And as far as EWU is concerned, a punt is exactly the same as a field goal, because they score on long drives as fast and as easily as short drives. So playing the field position game is pointless.

And their D generates a lot of turnovers.

Weber won that game because 1) they went 4-0 on 4th down and 2) Flipped EWUs normal turnover margin.

I 100% guarantee that if the Cats go 4-0 on 4th down conversions, they come out of Cheney with a win. It doesn't really matter what kind of offense a team runs, they just need to convert 4th downs instead of giving up turnovers (aka punts).

The “ball control” approach that everyone in here is advocating for is using the run game to sustain long, clock-eating scoring drives and thus limit the number of times EW gets the ball.

I’m sure we’d all agree that if the Cats punt all day, they’re going to lose.

You had no problem making up things I didn’t say, but it’s bothersome if someone does it to you?

Feel free to point out whatever that was.

All of your strawman arguments right here in this thread. Since you don’t even recognize what a strawman is, pointing them out is pointless. You’re not the intellectual heavyweight you think you are.

You’re welcome to tell me how I’ve misrepresented your posts. You’ve yet to do that.

But I will say it’s a little ironic that you’re accusing me of being intellectually conceited when this all started because you responded to me with a lengthy post all about how wrong I am and claimed that ancient Chinese military texts backed you up so it was pointless to reply.

In my opinion, you picked an argument and you’re a little upset that you got the worse end of it.

You said I wanted to XY bomb all game. I didn’t. I was trying to say get the ball to our playmakers. Maybe I didn’t make that clear, you could have asked me to clarify. I was at work and some of these threads move quickly so I don’t have all the time in the world to proof for readability and to make sure my words match up with the thoughts I was trying to convey.

The Art of War is a treatise on strategy, not slugging out on the battlefield. There are several concepts in the text that have a cumulative effect. I pointed out just one. I even clarified the exact reference I was making: set a trap the enemy cannot resist. Your response was so dumb the only thing you could do was to mock, which is fine by me.

Long, slow drives are exactly what EWU wants because they can score from anywhere on the field very quickly. Eating clock against EWU is suicide. Remember just one week ago how ISU was running the ball and eating clock when they were down by three scores in the fourth quarter? And how everyone was wondering what the hell they were doing but also thanking them at the same time for helping us win? That was a preview of what will happen if will happen if we worry more about ball control rather than getting the ball to our playmakers.

I don’t care if you don’t believe me. I used to believe in these dumb canards, too, until I looked up the data. Going back to 2008, we’re 2-9 against them and every in those losses our average TOP is more than 33:00. I always go back to 2013 because that gone game illustrates how dumb ball control is more than anything. I don’t care if you don’t believe me, the boxscore is out in the open for everyone to see. In our two wins, the TOP is much lower. I forget the exact number, but something between 30:00 and 31:00.

I actually posted several years of data here some years back dispelling all the popular ideas people hold on to, and it was largely ignored.

You’re too entrenched in your own beliefs to change your mind no matter how much evidence, or irrefutable proof is shown. Again, that’s fine with me. Most people are, so you’re not alone. The difference between you and most other people is you’re here to argue and beat your chest. Normal people roll their eyes and just walk away because it’s not worth the effort to continue. You interpret their silence as admitting defeat and sit there and beat your chest. I know all of this because I have a brother whose personality is identical to yours and I’ve had a front row seat to this show for decades.

Maybe talk to your brother instead of substituting your dislike of him onto the late Lord Vigo. Just a thought.

[Grizfan2009]

As much as this pains me to say, I want the cats to win this one. Would love to see eastern fans ego demolished after 2 losses in a row. Also when the griz (if we can get our offense together) beat the cats it will make us look better.

[Common Cat]

Here is something to punt. Ticket prices for the game start at 55 dollars with a 14.50 ticket fee added. Seriously!?

[BleedingBLue]

Here is something to punt. Ticket prices for the game start at 55 dollars with a 14.50 ticket fee added. Seriously!?

Yeah not as bad as the 80 plus 14.50 for the game against the Griz but still absurd. That ticket fee plus a 5 dollar delivery charge makes 2 tickets 155 bucks.

[Common Cat]

Here is something to punt. Ticket prices for the game start at 55 dollars with a 14.50 ticket fee added. Seriously!?

Yeah not as bad as the 80 plus 14.50 for the game against the Griz but still absurd. That ticket fee plus a 5 dollar delivery charge makes 2 tickets 155 bucks.

I was planning on taking my family. Heck that was approaching 300! I will now be watching from the comforts of my couch with some buffalo wild wings haha.

[PapaG]

100% this. The delta between our "good" offense and their "pretty good" defense is bigger than the delta between our elite D and their elite O.

Which means that a high possession game favors our offense.

I wasn't suggesting that the Cats go for it on 4th & 20 on their own 15. But with 3rd & 8 at the 50, it should be 4 down territory.

When people talk "ball control" and "chewing the clock" generally they mean the sort of offensive game the Cats played in Ogden. Maybe its supposed to mean something else on this thread. I think that the EWU D is primed for that sort of game plan...its really easy to defend & a limited number of drives plays into EWUs hands-because as you point out, they have a tendency to go cold for long stretches, even against defenses less quality that ours (see the WIU game for example) and because EB takes a lot of high risk, high reward sort of shots.

So if the Cats can put the Eagles back on their heels (and I'm agnostic about if the offensive plan should be 3 yards and a cloud of dust, or a hurry up power run game, or mixing up a steady dose of Ifanse with some big shots down the field) by getting a 2 score lead, then holding out until the Eagles O goes cold, its all good.

But, back to the original point, a high possession game should lend itself to the Cats favor because 1) the delta between our O and their D and 2) their tendency to go cold/take big risks.

I explicitly told you that that's not at all what was being suggested pages ago.

Did you miss it, or is it easier to just put words in other people's mouth?

I think the underlying issue is that usually ball control offenses are willing to punt the ball & play field position. If you are playing ball control & trying to limit EWUs possessions, you have to complete drives. EWU goes 3 & out A LOT. They just do it fast. And as far as EWU is concerned, a punt is exactly the same as a field goal, because they score on long drives as fast and as easily as short drives. So playing the field position game is pointless.

And their D generates a lot of turnovers.

Weber won that game because 1) they went 4-0 on 4th down and 2) Flipped EWUs normal turnover margin.

I 100% guarantee that if the Cats go 4-0 on 4th down conversions, they come out of Cheney with a win. It doesn't really matter what kind of offense a team runs, they just need to convert 4th downs instead of giving up turnovers (aka punts).

The “ball control” approach that everyone in here is advocating for is using the run game to sustain long, clock-eating scoring drives and thus limit the number of times EW gets the ball.

I’m sure we’d all agree that if the Cats punt all day, they’re going to lose.

You had no problem making up things I didn’t say, but it’s bothersome if someone does it to you?

Feel free to point out whatever that was.

All of your strawman arguments right here in this thread. Since you don’t even recognize what a strawman is, pointing them out is pointless. You’re not the intellectual heavyweight you think you are.

You’re welcome to tell me how I’ve misrepresented your posts. You’ve yet to do that.

But I will say it’s a little ironic that you’re accusing me of being intellectually conceited when this all started because you responded to me with a lengthy post all about how wrong I am and claimed that ancient Chinese military texts backed you up so it was pointless to reply.

In my opinion, you picked an argument and you’re a little upset that you got the worse end of it.

You said I wanted to XY bomb all game. I didn’t. I was trying to say get the ball to our playmakers. Maybe I didn’t make that clear, you could have asked me to clarify. I was at work and some of these threads move quickly so I don’t have all the time in the world to proof for readability and to make sure my words match up with the thoughts I was trying to convey.

The Art of War is a treatise on strategy, not slugging out on the battlefield. There are several concepts in the text that have a cumulative effect. I pointed out just one. I even clarified the exact reference I was making: set a trap the enemy cannot resist. Your response was so dumb the only thing you could do was to mock, which is fine by me.

Long, slow drives are exactly what EWU wants because they can score from anywhere on the field very quickly. Eating clock against EWU is suicide. Remember just one week ago how ISU was running the ball and eating clock when they were down by three scores in the fourth quarter? And how everyone was wondering what the hell they were doing but also thanking them at the same time for helping us win? That was a preview of what will happen if will happen if we worry more about ball control rather than getting the ball to our playmakers.

I don’t care if you don’t believe me. I used to believe in these dumb canards, too, until I looked up the data. Going back to 2008, we’re 2-9 against them and every in those losses our average TOP is more than 33:00. I always go back to 2013 because that gone game illustrates how dumb ball control is more than anything. I don’t care if you don’t believe me, the boxscore is out in the open for everyone to see. In our two wins, the TOP is much lower. I forget the exact number, but something between 30:00 and 31:00.

I actually posted several years of data here some years back dispelling all the popular ideas people hold on to, and it was largely ignored.

You’re too entrenched in your own beliefs to change your mind no matter how much evidence, or irrefutable proof is shown. Again, that’s fine with me. Most people are, so you’re not alone. The difference between you and most other people is you’re here to argue and beat your chest. Normal people roll their eyes and just walk away because it’s not worth the effort to continue. You interpret their silence as admitting defeat and sit there and beat your chest. I know all of this because I have a brother whose personality is identical to yours and I’ve had a front row seat to this show for decades.

This is nonsense. Are you OK? Sun Tzu? What?!? Am I missing a joke? It’s a football game MSU is going to try and control it on the ground. There may be a deep pass early but that won’t be the game plan.

Your brother being smarter than you doesn’t change any of it.

[BleedingBLue]

Here is something to punt. Ticket prices for the game start at 55 dollars with a 14.50 ticket fee added. Seriously!?

Yeah not as bad as the 80 plus 14.50 for the game against the Griz but still absurd. That ticket fee plus a 5 dollar delivery charge makes 2 tickets 155 bucks.

I was planning on taking my family. Heck that was approaching 300! I will now be watching from the comforts of my couch with some buffalo wild wings haha.

Yeah we were going to make the trip from Billings but we'd spend more on tickets than hotel.

[PapaG]

Here is something to punt. Ticket prices for the game start at 55 dollars with a 14.50 ticket fee added. Seriously!?

Yeah not as bad as the 80 plus 14.50 for the game against the Griz but still absurd. That ticket fee plus a 5 dollar delivery charge makes 2 tickets 155 bucks.

I was planning on taking my family. Heck that was approaching 300! I will now be watching from the comforts of my couch with some buffalo wild wings haha.

$200 in gas for my SUV to and from Portland/Cheney and price-gouging for tickets means I’m on my couch, too.

Edit by kmax to remove unnecessary political bits

[RickRund]

Here is something to punt. Ticket prices for the game start at 55 dollars with a 14.50 ticket fee added. Seriously!?

Yeah not as bad as the 80 plus 14.50 for the game against the Griz but still absurd. That ticket fee plus a 5 dollar delivery charge makes 2 tickets 155 bucks.

I was planning on taking my family. Heck that was approaching 300! I will now be watching from the comforts of my couch with some buffalo wild wings haha.

Not sure if youngsters are allowed in bars like Jack and Dan's but I am sure there have been kids there. There is a separate room off the main bar area. Join a big bunch of CATS for the game.

[Montanabob]

Here is something to punt. Ticket prices for the game start at 55 dollars with a 14.50 ticket fee added. Seriously!?

Yeah not as bad as the 80 plus 14.50 for the game against the Griz but still absurd. That ticket fee plus a 5 dollar delivery charge makes 2 tickets 155 bucks.

I was planning on taking my family. Heck that was approaching 300! I will now be watching from the comforts of my couch with some buffalo wild wings haha.

Not sure if youngsters are allowed in bars like Jack and Dan's but I am sure there have been kids there. There is a separate room off the main bar area. Join a big bunch of CATS for the game.

Buy at the game and not pay the ticket west mark up delivery fee. No chance it is sold out. Besides sit in the ewu side and drown out their cheers. Way more fun.

[Common Cat]

Here's an interesting facto I found in my research for this week's pod...MSU has two wins in the last 16 mashups against Eastern. Woof!

[seataccat]

Here's an interesting facto I found in my research for this week's pod...MSU has two wins in the last 16 mashups against Eastern. Woof!

Over the years we have not done well against Eastern Washington or Cal Poly.

[Joe Bobcat]

The eagles have sure captured attention with some of their high scoring blow-outs but let’s keep their season in perspective. Of their 8 games so far, 4 were routs but the other 4 were each won or lost by 6 points or less. MSU more closely fits in with the group of teams that played the eags close. Winning TOP will never guarantee a victory but it would seem that winning TOP against EWU isn’t the kiss of death that some suggest. In 3 of those games EWU lost TOP by 10:30 or more while in the UM game EWU won TOP by 2:16. The closeness of each of those games had less to do with TOP and more to do with limiting mistakes, taking advantage of turnovers, running back kick-offs for a TD, and teams executing their game plan well. Our game plan will need to be unique to address their strengths and take advantage of their weaknesses but doesn’t need to be drastically different than what we have seen this season. From there good execution will get it done.

[Bobcat4Ever]

Here is something to punt. Ticket prices for the game start at 55 dollars with a 14.50 ticket fee added. Seriously!?

Yeah not as bad as the 80 plus 14.50 for the game against the Griz but still absurd. That ticket fee plus a 5 dollar delivery charge makes 2 tickets 155 bucks.

I was planning on taking my family. Heck that was approaching 300! I will now be watching from the comforts of my couch with some buffalo wild wings haha.

Eastern Wash. clearly does not have a functioning Business School. Elasticity of demand, and all that stuff. I think they just snapped the elastic, and got empty seats and lowered gross revenue in the process.

[kennethnoisewater]

Here is something to punt. Ticket prices for the game start at 55 dollars with a 14.50 ticket fee added. Seriously!?

Yeah not as bad as the 80 plus 14.50 for the game against the Griz but still absurd. That ticket fee plus a 5 dollar delivery charge makes 2 tickets 155 bucks.

I was planning on taking my family. Heck that was approaching 300! I will now be watching from the comforts of my couch with some buffalo wild wings haha.

Eastern Wash. clearly does not have a functioning Business School. Elasticity of demand, and all that stuff. I think they just snapped the elastic, and got empty seats and lowered gross revenue in the process.

I don't think it's a business decision, I think it's more of a football atmosphere decision. They saw too many times that the Montana schools (especially um) brought so many fans that they outnumbered the home fans. It's an easy drive and a fun little getaway, especially from Western MT. EWU said "we can't outnumber these guys so let's jack up the prices and if they want to outnumber us they can at least pay one of our assistant coaches' salaries, otherwise we'll keep their numbers low".

[Long Time Cat]

Here is something to punt. Ticket prices for the game start at 55 dollars with a 14.50 ticket fee added. Seriously!?

Yeah not as bad as the 80 plus 14.50 for the game against the Griz but still absurd. That ticket fee plus a 5 dollar delivery charge makes 2 tickets 155 bucks.

I was planning on taking my family. Heck that was approaching 300! I will now be watching from the comforts of my couch with some buffalo wild wings haha.

Eastern Wash. clearly does not have a functioning Business School. Elasticity of demand, and all that stuff. I think they just snapped the elastic, and got empty seats and lowered gross revenue in the process.

I don't think it's a business decision, I think it's more of a football atmosphere decision. They saw too many times that the Montana schools (especially um) brought so many fans that they outnumbered the home fans. It's an easy drive and a fun little getaway, especially from Western MT. EWU said "we can't outnumber these guys so let's jack up the prices and if they want to outnumber us they can at least pay one of our assistant coaches' salaries, otherwise we'll keep their numbers low".

I have no idea if you are correct or not but it does seem like a good analysis the situation.

[MSU01]

Here is something to punt. Ticket prices for the game start at 55 dollars with a 14.50 ticket fee added. Seriously!?

Yeah not as bad as the 80 plus 14.50 for the game against the Griz but still absurd. That ticket fee plus a 5 dollar delivery charge makes 2 tickets 155 bucks.

I was planning on taking my family. Heck that was approaching 300! I will now be watching from the comforts of my couch with some buffalo wild wings haha.

Eastern Wash. clearly does not have a functioning Business School. Elasticity of demand, and all that stuff. I think they just snapped the elastic, and got empty seats and lowered gross revenue in the process.

I don't think it's a business decision, I think it's more of a football atmosphere decision. They saw too many times that the Montana schools (especially um) brought so many fans that they outnumbered the home fans. It's an easy drive and a fun little getaway, especially from Western MT. EWU said "we can't outnumber these guys so let's jack up the prices and if they want to outnumber us they can at least pay one of our assistant coaches' salaries, otherwise we'll keep their numbers low".

I have no idea if you are correct or not but it does seem like a good analysis the situation.

I think that's likely spot on. EWU would rather have 1,000 MSU fans paying $80 each than 2,000 paying $40 each. Same total ticket revenue and a better home field atmosphere for the home team.

[rivercat]

Here is something to punt. Ticket prices for the game start at 55 dollars with a 14.50 ticket fee added. Seriously!?

Yeah not as bad as the 80 plus 14.50 for the game against the Griz but still absurd. That ticket fee plus a 5 dollar delivery charge makes 2 tickets 155 bucks.

I was planning on taking my family. Heck that was approaching 300! I will now be watching from the comforts of my couch with some buffalo wild wings haha.

Eastern Wash. clearly does not have a functioning Business School. Elasticity of demand, and all that stuff. I think they just snapped the elastic, and got empty seats and lowered gross revenue in the process.

I don't think it's a business decision, I think it's more of a football atmosphere decision. They saw too many times that the Montana schools (especially um) brought so many fans that they outnumbered the home fans. It's an easy drive and a fun little getaway, especially from Western MT. EWU said "we can't outnumber these guys so let's jack up the prices and if they want to outnumber us they can at least pay one of our assistant coaches' salaries, otherwise we'll keep their numbers low".

I have no idea if you are correct or not but it does seem like a good analysis the situation.

I think that's likely spot on. EWU would rather have 1,000 MSU fans paying $80 each than 2,000 paying $40 each. Same total ticket revenue and a better home field atmosphere for the home team.

I'm pretty certain they wrote an equation relating price to attendance, took the derivative, set it equal to 0 and solved for the maximum revenue. And I bet they did it several times using different crayon colors to check their work.

[MSU01]

Here is something to punt. Ticket prices for the game start at 55 dollars with a 14.50 ticket fee added. Seriously!?

Yeah not as bad as the 80 plus 14.50 for the game against the Griz but still absurd. That ticket fee plus a 5 dollar delivery charge makes 2 tickets 155 bucks.

I was planning on taking my family. Heck that was approaching 300! I will now be watching from the comforts of my couch with some buffalo wild wings haha.

Eastern Wash. clearly does not have a functioning Business School. Elasticity of demand, and all that stuff. I think they just snapped the elastic, and got empty seats and lowered gross revenue in the process.

I don't think it's a business decision, I think it's more of a football atmosphere decision. They saw too many times that the Montana schools (especially um) brought so many fans that they outnumbered the home fans. It's an easy drive and a fun little getaway, especially from Western MT. EWU said "we can't outnumber these guys so let's jack up the prices and if they want to outnumber us they can at least pay one of our assistant coaches' salaries, otherwise we'll keep their numbers low".

I have no idea if you are correct or not but it does seem like a good analysis the situation.

I think that's likely spot on. EWU would rather have 1,000 MSU fans paying $80 each than 2,000 paying $40 each. Same total ticket revenue and a better home field atmosphere for the home team.

I'm pretty certain they wrote an equation relating price to attendance, took the derivative, set it equal to 0 and solved for the maximum revenue. And I bet they did it several times using different crayon colors to check their work.

Perhaps, although I'm pretty sure every EWU or UM grad I've ever talked to thinks that Calculus is a Batman villian.