Cheney - drunk?

[iaafan]

Someone's been shot in the woods and requires medical attention. Someone's been in a fender bender on a local road and the cost of the accident damage is over the limit. Having been hunting many a time and been involved in more than my share of fender benders, I have a difficult time seeing how it can take this long to file a report to the authorities. Add to it that it involves Dick Cheney (not just any veep) and how can anyone say this is a non-story. The lengths that those blindly supporting the republican party will go knows no bounds. Get real for crying out loud.

"Aww, gee, we got in a wreck, but went to the bar and hung out for a while, watched a movie and got a good night's rest before we called the cops." Duh. Yeah, that's what Joe Citizen does. You bet.

[Ponycat]

Could you explain this further? I haven't seen any analysis on this so I may be missing something, but I am pretty sure pellets from a 12 gauge wouldn't have much trouble penetrating at 30 yards.

I read that it wasn't a 12 gauge, and was something much smaller (higher gauge, if I am remembering my shotgun stuff correctly). I could maybe dig something up via google, but I am unfortunately swamped right now.

I just heard that is was a 28 guage

[G.W.Bush]

Again, I have had a case where I would have loved to have a chance to "talk to my PR people" for, say, 14 hours after a reportable incident before talking to law enforcement. Most of us aren't granted that luxury.

Yeah BAC, and you are as important as the Vice President of the United States. The media would be pounding at your door if you were in a similar accident. Compare apples to apples why don’t you. :roll

[Grizlaw]

Yeah BAC, and you are as important as the Vice President of the United States. The media would be pounding at your door if you were in a similar accident. Compare apples to apples why don’t you. :roll

So if the Vice President shoots somebody, he is entitled to be treated differently than one of us would be?

I understand that there are political concerns, but I don't think the VP's concerns about the PR ramifications should trump a live criminal investigation, do you?

[G.W.Bush]

Yeah BAC, and you are as important as the Vice President of the United States. The media would be pounding at your door if you were in a similar accident. Compare apples to apples why don’t you. :roll

So if the Vice President shoots somebody, he is entitled to be treated differently than one of us would be?

I understand that there are political concerns, but I don't think the VP's concerns about the PR ramifications should trump a live criminal investigation, do you?

When average Americans’ lives are comparable to those that hold major political offices I will answer your question.

[Grizlaw]

Yeah BAC, and you are as important as the Vice President of the United States. The media would be pounding at your door if you were in a similar accident. Compare apples to apples why don’t you. :roll

So if the Vice President shoots somebody, he is entitled to be treated differently than one of us would be?

I understand that there are political concerns, but I don't think the VP's concerns about the PR ramifications should trump a live criminal investigation, do you?

When average Americans’ lives are comparable to those that hold major political offices I will answer your question.

You've already answered it: yes, you think the VP is entitled to special treatment. That's fine, although I doubt many would agree with you (particularly when "their" candidate isn't in office).

I don't know...just from my own viewpoint, I have a hard time agreeing that the Vice President's right to protect his reputation has a higher value to society than law enforcement's obligation to learn the truth about what happened...

[Stevicat]

A WSJ Opinion Article

Cheney's Coverup
The Vice President shoots a man. Questions must be asked.

Wednesday, February 15, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST

The press corps is outraged that the White House waited 20 hours or so to disclose that Vice President Dick Cheney had shot a hunting companion, and we can see why. Don't these Bush people understand that the coverup is worse than the crime?

In the name of media solidarity, and in the interest of restraining the Imperial Presidency, we have put together the following coverup timeline with crucial questions that deserve to be answered:

• 5:30 p.m., Saturday (all times Central Standard Time). Mr. Cheney sprays Harry Whittington with birdshot, and the Secret Service immediately informs local police. Who is Harry Whittington and whom does he lobby for? Does he know Scooter Libby?

• 6:30 p.m. White House Chief of Staff Andy Card informs President Bush that there's been a hunting accident involving the Vice President's party. Did Mr. Bush ask follow-up questions? Was he intellectually curious?

• 7 p.m. Karl Rove tells Mr. Bush that it is Mr. Cheney who did the shooting. Why was this detail withheld for a full 30 minutes from the President? Who else did Mr. Rove talk to about this in the interim? Was Valerie Plame ever mentioned?

• 5 a.m., Sunday. White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan learns that Mr. Cheney is the shooter. He also fails to alert the media. Did he rush to write talking points or fall back to sleep?

• 11 a.m. Katharine Armstrong, owner of the ranch where the shooting took place, blows the story sky-high by giving the news to the Corpus Christi Caller-Times. According to Ms. Armstrong, Mr. Cheney told her to do what she thought made sense. Has Ms. Armstrong ever worked for Halliburton?

• 1:30 p.m. The Texas paper posts the story on its Web site, after calling the Veep's office for confirmation. Everyone involved confirms more or less everything, or so the official line goes. Their agreement is very suspicious.

• 11:27 a.m., Monday. Mr. McClellan finally holds a press conference and gets grilled. One reporter actually asks (and we're not making this one up), "Would this be much more serious if the man had died?"

For the record, Mr. McClellan replied, "Of course it would." We hope the 78-year-old Mr. Whittington recovers promptly after his heart attack yesterday. As for the Beltway press corps, it has once again earned the esteem in which it is held by the American public.

[G.W.Bush]

You've already answered it: yes, you think the VP is entitled to special treatment. That's fine, although I doubt many would agree with you (particularly when "their" candidate isn't in office).

I don't know...just from my own viewpoint, I have a hard time agreeing that the Vice President's right to protect his reputation has a higher value to society than law enforcement's obligation to learn the truth about what happened...

Nothing better than playing devil's advocate. Wouldn't expect anything less from a lawyer.

[Hello Kitty]

Isn’t there some kind of law for diplomats and people high in office so they cannot be harassed and scrutinized by the media and law enforcement?
I can’t remember?
GL and BAC you two don’t honestly see that every issue you seem to be on the conspiracy side of things. Cant you just be sheep like the rest of us and believe what you read and see on TV. Geez. make it hard for the rest of us. I am sick of my beliefs being challenged

[Grizlaw]

Nothing better than playing devil's advocate. Wouldn't expect anything less from a lawyer.

Yeah, we do that sometimes...

Professor Natelson had a great line when I was in his Property class at UM. Natelson is a very traditional law professor in the sense that his teaching method was very Socratic; he would call on students randomly in class and grill them about the cases we were supposed to have read. He always asked hard questions, and he would make us defend whatever we said. Anyway, one day he called on a woman in our class and asked her for her opinion as to the public policy considerations that went into whatever rule it was we were learning about. When she hesitated and waffled a little bit in her answer, he said "You know, I'm probably going to argue with you no matter what position you take, so just pick one and defend it."

[Grizlaw]

Isn’t there some kind of law for diplomats and people high in office so they cannot be harassed and scrutinized by the media and law enforcement?
I can’t remember?

There are a couple different legal concepts at work there. Foreign diplomats in the U.S. have diplomatic immunity; they can basically do whatever they want and can't be prosecuted. It causes a scandal in DC every few years, usually when the snot-nosed 17-year-old son of a foreign dignitary gets drunk and runs over a pedestrian or something, and can't be prosecuted or sued.

For Presidents and VPs, it's a little less clear; there is an unresolved (still, I believe) Constitutional issue as to whether a sitting President (or VP) can be indicted for a crime. It was an issue that was discussed after Clinton's impeachment (whether or not Clinton could be indicted on criminal perjury charges while he was still in office -- Ken Starr argued that he could be, but it never really got resolved).

And by the way, I'm not really a conspiracy theorist; I swear. On this particular issue, I honestly believe this probably was just an accident, that Cheney probably wasn't drunk, and that he probably isn't hiding anything. But, it's impossible for me to not think about all possibilities; that's just the way I am.

--GL

[BWahlberg]

After reading the "beer or two" article it reminds me of an old Simpsons episode where Homer gets pulled over, "Ok sir have you been drinking?"

"Only one or two beers....ok 12."



I had also heard someone mentioning that the usual rule of thumb for hunting accidents is if it's before 11:00 AM then its either incompetence or old men, if it's after 1:00 its usually alcohol.

[SonomaCat]

Again, I have had a case where I would have loved to have a chance to "talk to my PR people" for, say, 14 hours after a reportable incident before talking to law enforcement. Most of us aren't granted that luxury.

Yeah BAC, and you are as important as the Vice President of the United States. The media would be pounding at your door if you were in a similar accident. Compare apples to apples why don’t you. :roll

That's not exactly the point ... and my point had nothing had to do with the press. I was saying that most of us don't have the luxury of delaying our interviews with law enforcement officers for 14 hours after there is an accident. Do you disagree with that assertion?

[BWahlberg]

Maybe someone can help me out on this but if a person is taken to the hospital with a gun shot or knife wound isn't the hospital required to file a police report, immediatley?

[SonomaCat]

Funny quote from Fox News:

And Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, a Republican and Vietnam war veteran, told The Omaha World-Herald, "If he'd been in the military, he would have learned gun safety."

[GOKATS]

Opinion from todays "Chronicle".

http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/ar ... eyedit.txt

[SonomaCat]

Opinion from todays "Chronicle".

http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/ar ... eyedit.txt

The only thing sillier than the conspiracy theory websites is someone else taking a conspiracy theory website seriously enough to cite it in a newspaper article (and in the process giving their conspiracy theories more credence and consideration than they probably deserve). Of course they are making stuff up ... that's what they are there to do!

Libby better watch out, though. We've apparently seen the Cheney version of the bloody horse's head in his bed.