40 yard dash times and the value (or lack thereof)

HelenaCat95 · Post by **HelenaCat95** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:41 pm

Great article on the 40 yard dash, and how it is inadequate in judging football speed.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/recruiti ... id=2076741

I'm interested in hearing comments - especially from former players.

JahGriz · Post by **JahGriz** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:21 pm

The article is 100% correct, and all scouts and coaches know it. Players know it too, at least by the time they are in college. 40 times are not completely useless, when coupled with other information, but on their own they are worth nothing. Even if you get a 100% accurate 40 time, with accutrak timing, on grass, in a football uniform, they won't prove the kids game speed. It only proves that the kid can run X.Y fast on grass with a football uniform on, with xyz weather, an no one chasing them, and no one in their way.
Times are a measurable that can be put on paper, where as evaluating a kids true game speed and recording it are very difficult and can only be measured by production and evaluating hours of game film. Even then game speed is subjective.
A 40 time takes less than a minute to measure, so why not measure it and record it. It is something to look at, give you an idea as to the kids speed and is easy to get, but any coach that makes a decision based on 40 times alone or even if they give any kind of weight to 40 times other than just making not of them, is crazy.
Same can be said for squat and bench press, and even the better indicator power clean (which can show explosive power and indicate a bit about athletic ability). You could have a lineman that benches 700 pounds, but that doesn't mean they will be able to push someone around on the field. You have to consider athletic ability, leverage, quickness, etc., and regarless of any measurables related to those, if the kid can flat play, he can flat play, it doesn't matter what he benches or squats.

El_Gato · Post by **El_Gato** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:01 pm

The thing I've never understood is why don't they run the 40 IN FULL FOOTBALL GEAR?

It stands to reason that some guys can handle all that equipment better than others. Maybe a 4.4 guy becomes a 4.9 guy while a 4.5 guy only drops to 4.7? If I'm a pro or college scout, I'm pretty sure I'd be making all prospects work out in full gear anytime I was evaluating them.

longhorn_22 · Post by **longhorn_22** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:32 pm

I remember when Kane Ioane graduated college and hired an agent and was doing workouts for NFL teams. Throughout the process everyone always said that the biggest knock on him was his 40 time. Kane was an excellent tackler with great instinct. He never got signed by a team mainly because of his 40 time, even though I watched running backs, who's speed is more important than anyone elses, get drafted into the NFL. The logic behind it is completely absurd and too many players get overlooked.

BobcatLionFan · Post by **BobcatLionFan** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:15 am

40 is an indicator. lifting is an indicator, Height and weight are indicators, agility drills are indicators, injury history is an indicator. They have to be all considered.

To have a defensive back that can't stay with an average receiver in the league just doesn't make it. In the case of Kane, he would first be a Special teams guy (non-starter) that has to sprint down field. If he is 5 yards slower getting there, throws off everything. I thought Kane went to a camp, then was cut??? If you put Kane's desire/Knowledge into Joey's body, you have an all-star.

The name of the game, at higher levels, is SPEED. No matter what you say, speed is really important. It's easy to say this guy has game speed, but I've seen a lot of High School kids with game speed (against other high School kids) and then you take only the top one or two players from each High School team and you play against them in college, that game speed goes away fast.

If only one or two players from each Div 1-A college team goes to the pros, speed is incrediabily important for the skill positions and defense. From a large group of speed guys, you find out who has the game speed/Heart/desire and then drop the ones that don't have the heart/game desire and keep the ones that do so you end up with game desire and speed.

SPEED, name of the game.

mquast53000 · Post by **mquast53000** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:52 am

This sure doesn't help your 40 time!

HelenaCat95 · Post by **HelenaCat95** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:03 am

MQ-
that hit was almost as good as Elliot's on that Sac State punter in 2003 (i think that was the year).

grizzh8r · Post by **grizzh8r** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:20 pm

Sweet post mike - SWEET!

theblackgecko · Post by **theblackgecko** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:40 pm

El_Gato wrote: The thing I've never understood is why don't they run the 40 IN FULL FOOTBALL GEAR?

It stands to reason that some guys can handle all that equipment better than others. Maybe a 4.4 guy becomes a 4.9 guy while a 4.5 guy only drops to 4.7? If I'm a pro or college scout, I'm pretty sure I'd be making all prospects work out in full gear anytime I was evaluating them.

Not to mention, most of us run a lot differently when being chased by 300 pound guys who want to tear us apart.

catslayer · Post by **catslayer** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:08 pm

longhorn_22 wrote: Kane was an excellent tackler with great instinct. He never got signed by a team mainly because of his 40 time, even though I watched running backs, who's speed is more important than anyone elses, get drafted into the NFL. The logic behind it is completely absurd and too many players get overlooked.

no, kane just sucked. i remember cat-griz a few years ago when justin greene ran him right over, ive got it on video, it was cool. it wasnt his speed, given that was a factor but he couldnt go out an tackle any priest holmes or jamal lewis, he just didnt have the size or speed. plus the scouts saw he was a bobcat and then made the final cut over that information.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:14 pm

catslayer wrote:
longhorn_22 wrote: Kane was an excellent tackler with great instinct. He never got signed by a team mainly because of his 40 time, even though I watched running backs, who's speed is more important than anyone elses, get drafted into the NFL. The logic behind it is completely absurd and too many players get overlooked.
no, kane just sucked. i remember cat-griz a few years ago when justin greene ran him right over, ive got it on video, it was cool. it wasnt his speed, given that was a factor but he couldnt go out an tackle any priest holmes or jamal lewis, he just didnt have the size or speed. plus the scouts saw he was a bobcat and then made the final cut over that information.

A warning -- keep the smack on the smack board. Your opening line makes is obvious that you are talking smack and not trying to advance a reasonable conversation.

Bleedinbluengold · Post by **Bleedinbluengold** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:06 pm

BobcatLionFan wrote:40 is an indicator. lifting is an indicator, Height and weight are indicators, agility drills are indicators, injury history is an indicator. They have to be all considered.

To have a defensive back that can't stay with an average receiver in the league just doesn't make it. In the case of Kane, he would first be a Special teams guy (non-starter) that has to sprint down field. If he is 5 yards slower getting there, throws off everything. I thought Kane went to a camp, then was cut??? If you put Kane's desire/Knowledge into Joey's body, you have an all-star.

The name of the game, at higher levels, is SPEED. No matter what you say, speed is really important. It's easy to say this guy has game speed, but I've seen a lot of High School kids with game speed (against other high School kids) and then you take only the top one or two players from each High School team and you play against them in college, that game speed goes away fast.

If only one or two players from each Div 1-A college team goes to the pros, speed is incrediabily important for the skill positions and defense. From a large group of speed guys, you find out who has the game speed/Heart/desire and then drop the ones that don't have the heart/game desire and keep the ones that do so you end up with game desire and speed.

SPEED, name of the game.

Indeed...consider it part of the resume'. For example, if you're screening DB's, and you've got 4.3, 4.3, 4.4, 4.5 and 4.7. It's easy to screen out the 4.7 guy, and then go from there. It also makes sense that the guy who runs 4.4 will get just about anywhere faster than the 4.7 guy...which is a nice start.

I imagine that running the 40 in pads or not doesn't matter, as long as you're comparing apples to apples (i.e., non pad times vs. other non pad times). I actually like the shuttle time and vertical jump a little better than 40 times. I think it is a little better indicator of athletic ability in the midst of total chaos. Like someone else said, rarely do you get the opportunity to run in a straight line as fast you can for 40 yards in a FB game.

rickjames · Post by **rickjames** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:43 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote: A warning -- keep the smack on the smack board. Your opening line makes is obvious that you are talking smack and not trying to advance a reasonable conversation.

edited by kmax. Final warning to the poster known as rickjames/GrizPirate. Next time both usernames will be gone.

CelticCat · Post by **CelticCat** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:51 pm

Someone wana get this clown off the site? He hasn't even talked about sports of any kind, and is now using vulgar language.

I can see if he was talking smack, but he is just being a immature blockhead.

BobcatLionFan · Post by **BobcatLionFan** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:19 am

Bleedinbluengold wrote: I actually like the shuttle time and vertical jump a little better than 40 times. I think it is a little better indicator of athletic ability in the midst of total chaos. Like someone else said, rarely do you get the opportunity to run in a straight line as fast you can for 40 yards in a FB game.

To bring the original topic back:

On the straight line, it applies to WR and CBs. both come to a point where the cut is made and then it's pure acceleration and speed. A CB has to close the distance created by the cut. A safety has to race across the field to double cover deep. There are times when a 40 is very important because it entails acceleration and speed (thus why it's a 40 and not the 50 or 100). If a WR has that big 40 speed, where he doesn't have to even cut but can blow by a defender (i.e. Moss), it creates a huge cushion where the DB has to play back and given him short passes.

I like the shuttle also for the majority of the players, in particular LBs.