Durhams Coaching discussion

mslacat · Post by **mslacat** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:23 pm

There is a the typical Durham coaching debate that is taking place over in a thread about
Durr. I wanted to say something on this, but found it highly unfair to Carson Durr to
keep the argument going in a thread that was meant to be about him, so this is an attempt
to hi-jack that portion of the thread and move the discussion to a new thread.

Some talking point about the Durham bashers:

1. There are those who do not like Durham. Did not like him before the season, it would
not have mattered what he did this year it would not change their mind. That’s fine.
There are those who fall just opposite of that and are die hard Durham supporters. Then
there are those of us caught some where in the middle. Myself I found myself moving
this year firmly more from the center middle toward being a Durham Supporter.

2. There is an argument that the Big Sky was down this year, so us finishing 2nd was no
big deal! Yes I would agree the conference was down this year, but everyone knew that
coming in , and yet the media and coach’s still picked us last for a reason. We essentially
had 0 returnees back this year, and only one player who saw any substantial time last
year. This team was rebuilt from scratch and melded together in a way no other team in
the Sky can match. If you are going to rip Durham when his teams come up short, you
have to give him the credit when they come up Big.

3. A lot of bitching has been done about the team overall record this year. Well as far as
I am concern I would rather of had a rough time in the preconference than in conference.
What do you guys want, there was a reason why we were picked last in the Sky. We
struggled in the preseason because we were bad, because we were a developing team. I
would like to see how this version of the Cats would fare against those same teams now, I
bet you we would have a better run at them with our conference team. There was no
way in heck this team was going to be a great team right out of the chute.

4. The Bobcats can do better argument. Only two teams, in the Big Sky, (out of 12)
have a better record in the last 15 years of then that Durham’s Bobcats. If you want to
play the young turk basketball coach revolving door routine you better get ready to roll
the dice, because at this level of college sports the odds are you are going to fail twice as
often as you succeed in finding the hot young coach and then you will need find that
coach about every three years.

5. My argument: The way the NCAA D-1 low to Mid Majors are currently being
administrated/legislated is geared exactly to a coach like Durham. There are new rules in
place, mainly related to academics, that will start having effect on colleges shortly that
will have an impact on the game. This year, I feel, shows what Durham can do in this
new environment. Talk to Big Sky coaches and right now everyone is trying to figure
out how Durham did what he did, it is not easy to get JC players to come into a program,
by into the program and play so unselfishly in just a few months time. I am exited about
the direction Bobcat basketball is going and what Durham can do with another year with
this team. Durham right now is a far better coach more well rounded than what he was
even 5 years ago, and a lot of that has to do with his experience and I for one what to ride
on that experience now that we have developed it.

Helcat72 · Post by **Helcat72** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:30 pm

I agree that Mick is the best we can hope to have given the current state of affairs in college basketball...and we are probably lucky to have his experience. I would just hope that his seeming attitude toward winning on the road could change...because the home court advantage/disadvantage can't be as great as we have shown it to be this year! It's gotta be how the coach approaches the team on the road it's gotta be "losing is not an option" if it happens....it's an abberation!

Cat Pride · Post by **Cat Pride** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:40 pm

mslacat - I tend to agree with you on this. I cant tell you how much I respect Mick for what he has done throughout his entire playing and coaching career in Bozeman.

1. My biggest beef with coach is his outward attitude. To me he installs no confidence in his teams, and is not the rah-rah guy I'd like as a head coach.

2. Mick nevers seems to win the big game. He is Mack Brown of the Big Sky. He also never wins on the road. I think these two go hand in hand with comment #1 above. Perfect proof to my point is the fact that you say no BS team has won as many games as Durham's Cats in the last 12 years....yet how many times has Mick taken his team to the NCAA's = which should be your goal year in year out!

Finally, I think MSU could do better with a head coach, but could also do much much worse. I support Mick, will continue to support Mick, just wish he'd show some more fire and push his teams harder.

Post by **rtb** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:45 pm

I think we have gotten to the root of the problem with those that are looking for a change. A simple change of attitude with Mick being a little more confident and a little more outgoing and he may have everyone on his bandwagon. I know that he isn't that type of guy, but I think if he makes a little effort to exude more confidence and bring a little attitude to the program we would all be very happy with the current situation.

I think what he has done this year is outstanding and he deserves to lead this team next year when they should be the preseason favorites. I really hope that he will make an effort to be a little more outgoing next year.

Cat Pride · Post by **Cat Pride** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:56 pm

rtb wrote:I think we have gotten to the root of the problem with those that are looking for a change. A simple change of attitude with Mick being a little more confident and a little more outgoing and he may have everyone on his bandwagon. I know that he isn't that type of guy, but I think if he makes a little effort to exude more confidence and bring a little attitude to the program we would all be very happy with the current situation.

I think what he has done this year is outstanding and he deserves to lead this team next year when they should be the preseason favorites. I really hope that he will make an effort to be a little more outgoing next year.

BINGO!

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:56 pm

I for one did a poor job reading what was said by Mick and managing to separate what the sportswriter's take on his words actually were and what Mick intended. When I watch him in an interview, I see the fire and passion to win that a sportswriter can somehow twist and turn just like a lawyer

I read, operative word here is read, that Mick was tired before the year started. If he's burned out, and it doesn't appear that way to me, then he'll step down. If his kids continue to execute as they did in high school and junior college, then we're set for the same bright prospects in basketball we have for football

I'd personally like to see more than a few years of head-to-head games with Krysko. Don't know what the bracket looks like, but it'd be sweet to beat the Fizzlies three times this year.

Cat Pride · Post by **Cat Pride** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:05 pm

Cat Grad wrote:it'd be sweet to beat the Fizzlies three times this year.

Yes it would, but I fear if you asked Mick about meeting the Griz in the next round he'd tell you...."you know, these tournaments are tough, we are playing on a neutral court so its like a road game for us, and I dont think I have to tell you how hard it is to beat a team 3 times in one year."

I wish he'd shock us all and say something like...."I'd love the challenge of playing the Griz for the 3rd time this year. It'd be great to have both Montana teams in the semifinals. As for Cat-Griz, I dont care if this game is played in Bozeman, Missoula or on the moon, its an intense rivalry and UM better be ready for a fight, because you can bet that we will be giving them absolutely everything they can handle."

BTBCat · Post by **BTBCat** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:06 pm

I agree. whatever you read in the chronicle you have to take with a grain of salt. It is of course the worst paper in the state of MT and quite often they seem to even enjoy when the cats aren't doing well. I don't feel that there is much credibility there so I don't hesitate to question the writers. However Mick never has been a fiery guy so I don't know why it is such a shock now. He did a great job this year and lets give him a little respect and Kudos for changes in his staff and the recruiting that he did this year as well.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:12 pm

I may be wrong, but I don't think we'll ever see a Bobby Knight, Geane Keady, or Chaney personality in Bozo

For that matter, Dennis Erickson is too sarcastic and wasn't considered a good fit (look who's laughing all the way to the bank now) along with Sonny Lubick. How many of you thought Cliff was a little too over the top?

Cat Pride · Post by **Cat Pride** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:01 pm

Cat Grad wrote:I may be wrong, but I don't think we'll ever see a Bobby Knight, Geane Keady, or Chaney personality in Bozo For that matter, Dennis Erickson is too sarcastic and wasn't considered a good fit (look who's laughing all the way to the bank now) along with Sonny Lubick. How many of you thought Cliff was a little too over the top?

Thank God we wont see any of those guys or their respective personalities in Bozeman! I'd take Mick everyday over a guy like Bobby Knight.

Erickson....that's laughable. Talk about a coach who didnt have any regard for character or academics when coaching his Miami or Oregon St teams. Hysell was a high character coach, and I thought a decent one too. He just would go to the JC well too many times. If he'd have just bit the bullet for a year or two and gone with high school kids instead of bandaid JC's the program wouldnt have been in the shambles it was.

CLUB 126 · Post by **CLUB 126** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:52 pm

I would not type word one if I did not care alot about the success of OUR CATS.
YOU think cause your kids are coached by him that some how you care more

I think Mick is an outstanding person and should be given the respect he has earned!

BUT, how do we have a civil discussion on how we all think

,how do I express that regardless of overall wins, that what is important is how many BSC championships do we have

should we ever expect to win one, any,
NCAA tournament games

All the poeple out there that think that MICK should stay, what is your min standard, or is because he treated your kid good your min, or the fact that you will not find a better humane ANYPLACE your min

what is it, when should a coach be asked to move

Gonzaga started some were!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by **rtb** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:58 pm

I totally agree that we should expect a Big Sky Conference championship every year and that we should expect to win one of two games in the Big Dance now and then. This being said, Mick has not satisfied those expectations, but the team he has coming back next year should be left under his control. Beyond that I would like to see MSU become a "mid-major" You can laugh and say it is impossible, but really it isn't. Gonzaga did it, UConn used to be a joke team, and watch Vermont this year, they are another up-and-coming team.

I think those that favor Mick staying forever need to be a little bit more rational and at least listen to the other side of the argument instead of labeling those people as haters and anti-Bobcats. Also those on the other side of the argument need to recognize that what Mick did this year is worthy of coming back again next year to lead these guys again.

Cat Pride · Post by **Cat Pride** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 3:04 pm

rtb wrote:I totally agree that we should expect a Big Sky Conference championship every year and that we should expect to win one of two games in the Big Dance now and then. This being said, Mick has not satisfied those expectations, but the team he has coming back next year should be left under his control. Beyond that I would like to see MSU become a "mid-major" You can laugh and say it is impossible, but really it isn't. Gonzaga did it, UConn used to be a joke team, and watch Vermont this year, they are another up-and-coming team.

I think those that favor Mick staying forever need to be a little bit more rational and at least listen to the other side of the argument instead of labeling those people as haters and anti-Bobcats. Also those on the other side of the argument need to recognize that what Mick did this year is worthy of coming back again next year to lead these guys again.

Next year will be a good judge to see where Mick stands. Huge expectations going into next year. If the Cats dont make some hay, Mick may be out of a job.

I see the same with Kramer. He's got everything hinging on this year IMO. Cats dont win a playoff game in Lulay's tenure, then Kramer has some questions to answer.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:05 pm

I'm extremely fascinated by both sides in this discussion. I still hurt for the way Sonny Lubick was sent packing and Doug Graber coming in and staying one year. I also remember why we sent Gonzaga packing. We all know kids Mick was counting on that left his team had to hurt in more ways than the won-loss indicator. What was Cliff's record at the same point in his tenure as coach compared to Coach? How many of his teams lost the championship the last game of the year? Would we even be having this discussion if it weren't for all the crap we've received from over the divide? If it's even half as much as I received because of them when I lived out of state, I can understand why you'd give anything to see us become the BIG CAT in a podunk conference. And last, how many of us really, really contribute anything of value to the university in the form of real money?

jagur1 · Post by **jagur1** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:31 pm

Cat Grad: I don't think that last comment is very fair. Mslacat for one is a Grad supporting his school, paying attention, going to alumni and booster events, giving what he can, holding down a job in Montana with kids being a productive member of soceity. (all this I gather from reading his postings) (I guess he could be a out of work Meth head but I don't think so) Just becouse Msla cat (or many other posters on this site) isn't, nore ever will be, worth millions doesn't mean they can't be a constructive part of supporting the University. I wish the Griz had 5,000 Mslacats that support the Griz BB program like he supports the cats. The Griz would be un stop able. Peace.

BozoneCat · Post by **BozoneCat** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:49 pm

As a pretty vocal critic of Mick over the last few years, this discussion has been very interesting to me. As such, I think that RTB's synopsis of Mick and the attitude of many/most boosters is right on.

This may surprise many of you, but... I think Mick has earned another year. I am still frustrated by him at times, but overall he has done a good job this year, and I feel that maybe he has managed to turn this program (not just this team) around for the long-haul. Mick still isn't and never will be a great interview, but I have been very pleased with the fire I have seen him display ON the sideline during the games, more than I had ever seen him do so in years past. I think he finally made a great hire in getting Coach Johnny to come to Bozeman, I hope that Mick finally realized that he needs someone big to coach the big men. This team has become way more athletic and fun to watch than any other team Mick has had, excepting the '96 squad. Most importantly, Mick has this program primed for to be a Big Sky power next season - and it would not be fair to him or the players to pull a switch now.

That said, I would still like to see Mick continue to address his areas of shortcomings. First off, I agree with others that his attitude towards winning road games and just being more generally confident HAS to change. Second, I know he will never be the rah-rah guy that Kramer is, but Mick needs to make a better effort to get out into the public and drum up support for the basketball program and hopefully put more butts in the seats. Third, Mick needs to realize that getting MSU to the "Dance" is the #1 priority of most boosters, and will give us way more positive publicity than winning the regular season title ever will. It may not be the best or most fair way to judge a season based on its merits, but getting our team to the NCAA tourney should be his #1 goal every season. Winning two more games next week would be a nice start!

I will still be on Mick's case next year because of his overall track record, but for now, I think he has earned the support of one of his more strident critics for his wonderful work this season. Now Mick --- GO GET'EM in Portland next week!!!

jagur1 · Post by **jagur1** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:54 pm

? If they lose to the Griz by 10 in the Semi's does that change anybodies mind about this year?

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:32 pm

I hope all the Cat fans understand I'm probably not going to vote one way or the other in a Chat Room whether or not to keep or fire a coach. We all want what's best for our school, conference and hope the administrators do a good job finding the right fit for that particular program. I simply find it's pretty fascinating that we can have this type of discussion in here and not get in everybody's face like another chat room in our conference and rationally discuss the relative merits of our coach. I just don't see the emotionless, lack of fire our newspapers portray Mick as being. Yeah, I get pretty bored talking to reporters and their lame questions.

BozoneCat · Post by **BozoneCat** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:48 pm

jagur1 wrote:? If they lose to the Griz by 10 in the Semi's does that change anybodies mind about this year?

No, but it would put me back on the fence. It would depend on HOW we lost, whether we just didn't "show up" or if the griz just couldn't miss. Either way, I wouldn't be happy. Has anyone heard whether this game will be televised?

BTW, the griz have yet to earn their trip to Portland. They weren't able to hold serve in the playoffs last year, although I do think they will do so this year. Just saying...

grizzh8r · Post by **grizzh8r** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:27 am

BTBCat wrote:I agree. whatever you read in the chronicle you have to take with a grain of salt. It is of course the worst paper in the state of MT and quite often they seem to even enjoy when the cats aren't doing well. I don't feel that there is much credibility there so I don't hesitate to question the writers. However Mick never has been a fiery guy so I don't know why it is such a shock now. He did a great job this year and lets give him a little respect and Kudos for changes in his staff and the recruiting that he did this year as well.

Point # 1: The worst newspaper in MT - Livingston Enterprise

Point # 2: To any news entity, there is no news like bad news, therefore any bashing of the 'Cats is what they want. That is why I don't read the news - just a bunch of negative crap.

Point # 3: Mick has done a great job this year, and (IMO) at least deserves to coach his son through the finish of his college career.

GO CATS!