Pathetic

Bcat · Post by **Bcat** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:35 am

I too am saddened by this. I have been nervous about something like this happening. For a couple of years I have heard rumors that some of our transfers were pushing the envelope. Take your shots and say what you want, we are a Montana team, and should be very careful with transfers outside of the Northwest. The Northwest represents a different culture that appears to have alot of opportunities in MT for big city kids that may want to push the envelope. Look at our State wide Meth problem, my understanding is that we get alot of traffic from outside the Northwest to join up with a few local thugs based on our expansive state that seems target rich and easy to hide out in.

Recruiting out of state players must demand more analysis for risk/reward based on the individual. We are at the point that we must recruit for building a program and not merely recruit to get ready made talent to fill a postion for a year or two. A true dynasty program is one that develops talent, and goes beyond merely picking up one/two year hit wonders. Yes, we will need some one/two year hit wonders, but to build a program of key positions on them is not a healthy program. Yes, I am always partial to locally grown kids since we are a Montana State University. I think a strong program for any Montana school is reflectd by the number of kids within state that we can develop into our program, and remaining a winning program. The fact remains, the more out of state kids(outside the Northwest) we bring in, the higher probability of issues like this surfacing. My statement is based on historical numbers of transfers. Correct me if I am wrong, but, I do belive the last two years we increased a little recruiting kids out of state, outside of the Northwest.

Perhaps emotions have tainted my post, but, I do believe this is an honest assessment.

whizonthegriz · Post by **whizonthegriz** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:04 am

We have to be careful that this does not become a knee jerk race issue, saying that we need to just recruit locally. As someone who has worked in inner city schools, I am more impressed with the character of the students that I have worked with than many of the kids I have taught in Montana.

To answer the question, why do these students stick around Bozeman? Have you seen where many (I'm guessing) of these kids are from? Bozeman is a pretty safe place. The University of Washington emphasizes to their recruits the contacts that they will make in Seattle that will open doors for the players after graduation. I would think Bozeman offers these same opportunities on a different scale.

bozbobcat · Post by **bozbobcat** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:05 am

I just read all of these posts, and I have to agree with a lot of them. I'm not going to lie, these words will be harsh. I'm not trying to sound like a racist or bigot in any way, I am simply addressing my concerns. As far as anonymous posting, you can see who I am very clearly by my name and the web link on this profile. I stand by my words strongly.

This makes me mad in several ways. First off, I'm going to speak as someone who has lived in Bozeman for all of my life. Bozeman is my home, my family is here, and my friends are here. I have always been very defensive of this place and Montana in general. My family has been in this valley since 1863 and it breaks me apart to see things like this happen here. I don't like the idea of these drugs here, but such is the direction of society. As a future teacher, it concerns me that these are available for kids (or anyone for that matter). What makes me angry is that drug dealing defaces my home of Bozeman and Montana and it should not be anywhere, especially here. There's no stopping it, but that doesn't mean we should accept it by any means.

Next, I will address this as a lifelong Bobcat fan and third generation MSU student. As a fan, it makes me sick to think I've rooted for these guys. I used to think that Bobcat football was a class organization. We have players chipping at the refs and being all-around assholes on and off the field. Excuse the language, but I'm not censoring it. These players come here getting handed an education in exchange for playing a game. That's why I appreciate an athlete like Carson Durr, Ted Morris, the track, tennis, volleyball, and ski teams, and the entire women's basketball team for doing the best they can in every aspect of the word. This same feeling also applies for any of the football and basketball players who do their best to represent MSU. Their efforts should be strongly applauded.

These athletes that commit crimes like this have had their time in Bozeman handed to them on a silver platter. They take fairly easy schedules and pull off a 2.0 in the classroom, if even that. These guys are revered my many people in this community and as role models should live up to a positive ideal of doing the best they can to improve their community. And yet girls around here love these guys? I've struggled for years to even get a date with the girls around here. I've balanced two majors and a minor, taking 20 credits a semester, working, and I was damn near a 4.0 (3.94) last semester. I've been on the Dean's list all but one semester where I barely missed. And I have paid for every last dime of it out of my own money, except for a measly $500/semester scholarship. I've also dealt with the MSU system that can make a student feel more like a number or cattle than an actual person. I think we see why MSU struggles to get alumni donations. So this is a major slap in the face for me as an MSU student and a Bobcat fan. Everyone that knows me knows my position on Bobcat athletics. I am a Bobcat fan through and through, but guys like this make me question that big time. Think about that the next time you send your check to the Bobcat club or whatever the boosters are called now. For once, give some kudos to the student like this, or hell, like me for that matter.

The national news keeps zoning in on these individuals and it hurts everyone associated with Montana State University. I want the people with this type of character out of MSU, out of Bozeman, and out of Montana. Just for once I'd love to hear the story of a student who works hard, does what he or she should do in the world, does well in school, and makes this community a better place, even if they are not on the athletic field at any time in their career. I'm being selfish here, absolutely. I am so damn sick and tired of MSU's reputation getting sucker punched by these so-and-sos (I am censoring here). This has to end and I would think that the football program and others need to look at character. They have done much to address this, but these people need to understand they represent Montana State University, the state of Montana, and very loyal fans who do their best to support them.

I know that was a long rant and very angry one, but I stand by what I said. I'm Steve McCormick and I approve this message.

Weltercat · Post by **Weltercat** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:08 am

This is really an unfortunate incident but this stuff doesn't really surprise me. I agree with a previous poster that said he rooted for the institution, helmet and uniform. I remember when I was in school, you'd see some of the players walking through the R-Bar right after getting their tails kicked by Nevada pushing their way around like they had just won the superbowl.

I like how nobody except friz fans blame Coach Kramer for bringing in any bad apples but I have read posts on this board in the past talking about what trouble makers Rick Nehisel and Dennis Erickson recruit.

longhorn_22 · Post by **longhorn_22** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:37 am

Completely speechless.

whitetrashgriz · Post by **whitetrashgriz** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:55 am

although not related, the timing of this incident really has me thinking more than ever about the school i love and the team i support. this isn't a black/white thing....it's an "athlete" thing. and not all athletes, but a good amount of them. i bet every one of us here has at least one story of a football or basketball player being a complete asshole. just yesterday i was telling my friends about these jerks in a CITY LEAGUE BASKETBALL GAME! supposed to be fun right? well, these jerks were running their mouths before the game, and during the game. flat out being pricks. if any of them know how to read, i hope they see this because they'll know who thery are. we beat them by 30 and it was a lot quieter! the point is, i was telling my friends how i feel like a sucker for cheering for these guys. i couldn't talk for 3 days after the furman game because my throat was shot. and for what? these guys have no respect for any of us, our school or our town. and it's a tough situation for us fans. part of me wants to just say ****** you msu, and move on. but that wouldn't do anything because every school is the same. and it's because we treat these guys like gods. and they buy into it. but you know what, screw them. just a little FYI for any athlete reading this. just because you play a sport, doesn't mean you are a wonderful person who can do whatever they wish where ever they wish. it doesn't work that way. pull your ******' heads out and try to comprehend that you are just a dude like the rest of us. and after2 or 3 years here, you won't be in the nba, and you won't be in the nfl. but unfortunately, many of you will still be here. and because you chose to be an idiot, and didn't take advantage of your free school, you'll have to live in the past. you'll have to act like you're some king ****** because you USED to play for the cats. and you'll have to sell weed, meth and coke to supoort your own habbits, and pay your tabs at the zebra and k.o.'s. that's if these establishments even make royalty such as yourselves pay! for all you legit athletes, i commend you. sadly, for many of us you'll all just be thrown into the mix, and be looked at in the same light as this trash that i bring my children to see on saturdays.

JimmyEatWorld · Post by **JimmyEatWorld** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:45 am

http://www.dailychronicle.com/articles/ ... 00drug.txt

The most recent account of events from the Comical.

crazycat · Post by **crazycat** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:05 am

I don't understand how this happened in June, but arrests weren't made until December. Unless they were casing Fuller to nab other dealers. You have to wonder if this is connected to the murder last summer.

Fuller shouldn't have been on the team all year. What a shame that he can sell cocaine to an informant and take up a starting position in front of other (Beach) players.

The Butcher · Post by **The Butcher** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:13 am

I just happen to have a little research about this issue (bringing a little knowledge to the table, not just opinion!):

In a study conducted by Sharon Stoll, a professor from Idaho (hell of a coincidence), found that on a whole, athletes have significantly lower moral-reasoning skills than the general student population. Her research has shown a sharp decline in athletes’ moral reasoning. Team-sport athletes preformed worse than individual sport athletes, and although female athletes score higher than male athletes their moral reasoning abilities have also dropped. Stoll attributed the lack of ethical behavior to how athletes have trained throughout their lives. Athletes are taught to view their opponents as obstacles to overcome rather than honorable individuals. They frequently develop a sense of entitlement, are not encouraged to think for themselves, and rarely face consequences for acting irresponsibly. Stoll attributes these situations and reasons to the decline in moral and ethical behavior by athletes at the college level.
Yet if people are only interested in a winning program there is an increased likelihood of unethical decisions that focus on winning not fair play. In research conducted by Robert Frank he found that though it was a slight increase, a winning program does see an increase in donations made to the college after a successful athletic season. However this increase in donations is only sustained shortly after the athletic season, suggesting that a team needs to continue winning to see this increase in income year in and year out.
In an article from the Journal of Sport Management it was state the “an organization that possess such organizational resources may sustain a competitive advantage” (Smart, 2000). The competitive advantage can help strengthen the program, and with success often comes more resources. These resources help strengthen the athletic department which helps lessen budget concerns and allows for hiring of additional staff members and updating facilities which will help strengthen the athletes’ abilities to compete, and help increase the likelihood of a winning program.
The desire for these additional resources has forced many administrators and coaches in colleges across the country to emphasize the need to win. With the “we need to win at all costs” attitude coaches are willing to bend the rules and push the limits of what is right because of the pressure to have a winning team. Athletic departments are very influenced by the coaching staffs which are often made up of excellent fundraisers and ambassadors for the school and sport programs, and often feel the pressure to win so much that they are willing to make unethical choices. Coaches play a very important part in shaping athletes’ moral choices, and if the coaches are making unethical choices than there is a good chance that their players will do the same.

oldcatfan · Post by **oldcatfan** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:24 am

The "research" that the Butcher posted carries no more weight than his opinion does, as far as I am concerned. Anyone can look up reserach on the internet and find some to support their opinion.

While this whole thing stinks, and there will be hell to pay in the athletic department, it would do us all some good to look beyond our noses. NCAA research supports the FACT that athletes, as a group, have a higher graduation rate than normal students,and yes, some of them use drugs--but a much lower rate than their fellow students. This thing is a national epidemic--it isn't a Bozeman problem. No progress will be made in this community until we realize that and start dealing with the real problem. If you want to see some stats about Montana kids using drugs, go to the Office of Public Instruction website and look at the Youth Risk Behavior Survey. Nobody is immune. The bottom line--let's help MSU fix this, not be the "wagging fingers." What can we do to help?

The Butcher · Post by **The Butcher** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:31 am

oldcatfan wrote:The "research" that the Butcher posted carries no more weight than his opinion does, as far as I am concerned. Anyone can look up reserach on the internet and find some to support their opinion.

While this whole thing stinks, and there will be hell to pay in the athletic department, it would do us all some good to look beyond our noses. NCAA research supports the FACT that athletes, as a group, have a higher graduation rate than normal students,and yes, some of them use drugs--but a much lower rate than their fellow students. This thing is a national epidemic--it isn't a Bozeman problem. No progress will be made in this community until we realize that and start dealing with the real problem. If you want to see some stats about Montana kids using drugs, go to the Office of Public Instruction website and look at the Youth Risk Behavior Survey. Nobody is immune. The bottom line--let's help MSU fix this, not be the "wagging fingers." What can we do to help?

Wow, that was a tad harsh… These articles are from MSU’s library, not Yahoo or Google; meaning they are academic articles. I guess if you think research carries no more weight than opinion that is your own viewpoint. I encourage you to post some research that would “back up” your opinion. I simply posted this information in response to many of the posts that I have read. I certainly wasn’t trying to be a dick about it (unlike some people).

oldcatfan · Post by **oldcatfan** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:43 am

I didn't say your research wasn't academic or valid...what I meant was research is what it is. I guess I believe we tend to go looking for research that confirms what we already believe rather than what informs us. And I gave people a couple places to look--Montana Office of Public Instruction Youth Risk Behavior Survey and the NCAA site is loaded with research on general student-athlete populations. Have at it.

badasscat · Post by **badasscat** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:55 am

To all you fans who are now coming out of the closet to state your apparent disdain for MSU athletes and athletics.

1. I have not seen a single person voice any of these feelings that they have been harboring about athletes and athletics in general until now.

2. Steve are you mad because you can't get a date or because of the events that have happened.

3. Fuller, Davis, Sullivan, Miller, and LeBrum broke the law and will be punished. MSU Athletics did not break the law.

4. MSU coaches have been recruiting kids from all over the globe for more than 30 years. As a result there have been thousands of young people who have come to MSU did what they were supposed to do and received a quality education while remaining a law abiding citizen. Many of which have stayed and been productive members of society, and contributed to the economic growth of the town and state.

5. Montana kids also break the law, need proof, the jails all around the state are full of Montana born and raised prisoners.

6. I am deeply disturbed by the recent events of a few dumb asses. As a former MSU athlete who happens to be African American and one who did finish a degree, I hold a deep pride in my heritage and the struggles overcome, and advancement of my race, and Montana State University. To hear someone suggest that I should have never been allowed the opportunity to attend MSU because I hail from an urban area is just plain BULL.

7. BAC posted earlier that racist remarks would be disguised as a concern and a push to only recruit only MT or Pac. NW kids and he was right.

I do not condone the use, possession, or distribution of any illegal drug by anyone, hopefully these guys will receive the harshest penalties possible, and we will be able to use them as an example to any other dumb ass (black, white, green or purple) that if you do something illegal in Bozeman you will be caught and you will disgrace not only yourself but you family, your race, your team, and this institution. Enough ranting for one morning I welcome any rebuttals.

catamaran · Post by **catamaran** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:00 am

bozbobcat · Post by **bozbobcat** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:04 am

I'll respond to this. I'm actually mad about the events, not because I can't get a date. That's just one of my frustrations and I guess it doesn't apply here. That point came up because I was trying to make an argument about what certain student athletes receive when they come to MSU. There are lots of guys here, yourself included badasscat, who do their best everyday and thanks for doing that. Personally, I'm just fed up with this lack of character from certain players. I won't say stop bringing black athletes to this school. That makes absolutely no sense at all. There are several athletes on this team who are great guys, no doubt about it. I'll use Evin Groves as an example. I've met him before and he's the nicest guy you could meet and you know that he does well with everything. We should all be mad about this because in some way these individuals have given all people associated with the Bobcats a black eye.

SACCAT · Post by **SACCAT** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:06 am

badasscat wrote:To all you fans who are now coming out of the closet to state your apparent disdain for MSU athletes and athletics.

1. I have not seen a single person voice any of these feelings that they have been harboring about athletes and athletics in general until now.

2. Steve are you mad because you can't get a date or because of the events that have happened.

3. Fuller, Davis, Sullivan, Miller, and LeBrum broke the law and will be punished. MSU Athletics did not break the law.

4. MSU coaches have been recruiting kids from all over the globe for more than 30 years. As a result there have been thousands of young people who have come to MSU did what they were supposed to do and received a quality education while remaining a law abiding citizen. Many of which have stayed and been productive members of society, and contributed to the economic growth of the town and state.

5. Montana kids also break the law, need proof, the jails all around the state are full of Montana born and raised prisoners.

6. I am deeply disturbed by the recent events of a few dumb asses. As a former MSU athlete who happens to be African American and one who did finish a degree, I hold a deep pride in my heritage and the struggles overcome, and advancement of my race, and Montana State University. To hear someone suggest that I should have never been allowed the opportunity to attend MSU because I hail from an urban area is just plain BULL.

7. BAC posted earlier that racist remarks would be disguised as a concern and a push to only recruit only MT or Pac. NW kids and he was right.

I do not condone the use, possession, or distribution of any illegal drug by anyone, hopefully these guys will receive the harshest penalties possible, and we will be able to use them as an example to any other dumb ass (black, white, green or purple) that if you do something illegal in Bozeman you will be caught and you will disgrace not only yourself but you family, your race, your team, and this institution. Enough ranting for one morning I welcome any rebuttals.

This is the best post I have seen in the past 2 days.

Cat_gld · Post by **Cat_gld** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:20 am

oldcatfan wrote:The "research" that the Butcher posted carries no more weight than his opinion does, as far as I am concerned. Anyone can look up reserach on the internet and find some to support their opinion.

While this whole thing stinks, and there will be hell to pay in the athletic department, it would do us all some good to look beyond our noses. NCAA research supports the FACT that athletes, as a group, have a higher graduation rate than normal students,and yes, some of them use drugs--but a much lower rate than their fellow students. This thing is a national epidemic--it isn't a Bozeman problem. No progress will be made in this community until we realize that and start dealing with the real problem. If you want to see some stats about Montana kids using drugs, go to the Office of Public Instruction website and look at the Youth Risk Behavior Survey. Nobody is immune. The bottom line--let's help MSU fix this, not be the "wagging fingers." What can we do to help?

Is there something wrong with supporting opinions with facts generated by scientific inquiry? If the issue that this thread covers is to be resolved by the MSU/community, I would hope it has some basis in a reliable body of information rather than just a hodge podge of diverse unfounded opinion....slefish or otherwise.

Au Blue · Post by **Au Blue** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:20 am

badasscat wrote:To all you fans who are now coming out of the closet to state your apparent disdain for MSU athletes and athletics.

1. I have not seen a single person voice any of these feelings that they have been harboring about athletes and athletics in general until now.

2. Steve are you mad because you can't get a date or because of the events that have happened.

3. Fuller, Davis, Sullivan, Miller, and LeBrum broke the law and will be punished. MSU Athletics did not break the law.

4. MSU coaches have been recruiting kids from all over the globe for more than 30 years. As a result there have been thousands of young people who have come to MSU did what they were supposed to do and received a quality education while remaining a law abiding citizen. Many of which have stayed and been productive members of society, and contributed to the economic growth of the town and state.

5. Montana kids also break the law, need proof, the jails all around the state are full of Montana born and raised prisoners.

6. I am deeply disturbed by the recent events of a few dumb asses. As a former MSU athlete who happens to be African American and one who did finish a degree, I hold a deep pride in my heritage and the struggles overcome, and advancement of my race, and Montana State University. To hear someone suggest that I should have never been allowed the opportunity to attend MSU because I hail from an urban area is just plain BULL.

7. BAC posted earlier that racist remarks would be disguised as a concern and a push to only recruit only MT or Pac. NW kids and he was right.

I do not condone the use, possession, or distribution of any illegal drug by anyone, hopefully these guys will receive the harshest penalties possible, and we will be able to use them as an example to any other dumb ass (black, white, green or purple) that if you do something illegal in Bozeman you will be caught and you will disgrace not only yourself but you family, your race, your team, and this institution. Enough ranting for one morning I welcome any rebuttals.

excellent post badass... I do have questions for others though.... Is it possible for the coaching staff to monitor the players a little closer? Do players have an obligation to police themselves and report things they know are happening? Can sanctions be taken against MSU athletics even though it's the players breaking the law? These are serious questions that I just don't have the answers to.

Platinumcat · Post by **Platinumcat** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:22 am

badasscat wrote:To all you fans who are now coming out of the closet to state your apparent disdain for MSU athletes and athletics.

1. I have not seen a single person voice any of these feelings that they have been harboring about athletes and athletics in general until now.

2. Steve are you mad because you can't get a date or because of the events that have happened.

3. Fuller, Davis, Sullivan, Miller, and LeBrum broke the law and will be punished. MSU Athletics did not break the law.

4. MSU coaches have been recruiting kids from all over the globe for more than 30 years. As a result there have been thousands of young people who have come to MSU did what they were supposed to do and received a quality education while remaining a law abiding citizen. Many of which have stayed and been productive members of society, and contributed to the economic growth of the town and state.

5. Montana kids also break the law, need proof, the jails all around the state are full of Montana born and raised prisoners.

6. I am deeply disturbed by the recent events of a few dumb asses. As a former MSU athlete who happens to be African American and one who did finish a degree, I hold a deep pride in my heritage and the struggles overcome, and advancement of my race, and Montana State University. To hear someone suggest that I should have never been allowed the opportunity to attend MSU because I hail from an urban area is just plain BULL.

7. BAC posted earlier that racist remarks would be disguised as a concern and a push to only recruit only MT or Pac. NW kids and he was right.

I do not condone the use, possession, or distribution of any illegal drug by anyone, hopefully these guys will receive the harshest penalties possible, and we will be able to use them as an example to any other dumb ass (black, white, green or purple) that if you do something illegal in Bozeman you will be caught and you will disgrace not only yourself but you family, your race, your team, and this institution. Enough ranting for one morning I welcome any rebuttals.

Nicely put!

In a weird way, I'm hoping a positive comes of this terrible situation as I have used it as a teaching opportunity with my nine year old regarding drugs.

liqud360 · Post by **liqud360** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:30 am

For any of us thinking of wether or not to keep supporting MSU, I say dont duck and run! Now, more than ever, booster, and contributors should stick by MSU and continue to show support. If we quit as fans and supporters things will get worse not better. We have to accept it, forgive it, and move on. Cant dwell on things we cant change. For the kids that are left...they need our support.