Cure worse than the problem?

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ilovethecats
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Re: Cure worse than the problem?

Post by ilovethecats » Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:56 am

Like masks, if it can save even ONE life, I think it should be used if a person wants to use it. What a concept!



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The Butcher
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Re: Cure worse than the problem?

Post by The Butcher » Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:41 pm

ilovethecats wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:56 am
Like masks, if it can save even ONE life, I think it should be used if a person wants to use it. What a concept!
CDC - Masks work!
FDA - Hydroxychloroquine doesn't work!
Trump supporters - Masks don't work, hydroxychloroquine works!



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Re: Cure worse than the problem?

Post by iaafan » Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:42 pm

ilovethecats wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:56 am
Like masks, if it can save even ONE life, I think it should be used if a person wants to use it. What a concept!
This isn't just about saving lives. Among other things it's about keeping people out of hospitals, which for coronavirus is very, very expensive. It's costing me, you and everyone else money every time someone ends up hospitalized for COVID. It's also very expensive for people who don't end up in the hospital, but miss a lot of work. It's expensive for businesses that don't bring in the revenue like they normally do and their employees who are laid off and then paid, via unemployment, by me, you and everyone else.

It's expensive to test HDC, it's expensive to pay for it. Especially when not one clinical trial has shown it to be effective. Having people take it that don't need it can mean that people who do need it won't be able to get it.

The government is tasked with stepping in when it sees the people getting bilked out of their money. They don't always do it, because the bar for doing so is pretty high, so when they do it's reasonable to believe them.

I guess no one can stop anyone from acquiring it in the same sense that you can get away with acquiring an actual illegal substance, but people need to know that by doing so they're not taking a proven cure, they're putting themselves at possible risk and they're inhibiting others that the drug works for from acquiring it.



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Re: Cure worse than the problem?

Post by ilovethecats » Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:14 pm

iaafan wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:42 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:56 am
Like masks, if it can save even ONE life, I think it should be used if a person wants to use it. What a concept!
This isn't just about saving lives. Among other things it's about keeping people out of hospitals, which for coronavirus is very, very expensive. It's costing me, you and everyone else money every time someone ends up hospitalized for COVID. It's also very expensive for people who don't end up in the hospital, but miss a lot of work. It's expensive for businesses that don't bring in the revenue like they normally do and their employees who are laid off and then paid, via unemployment, by me, you and everyone else.

It's expensive to test HDC, it's expensive to pay for it. Especially when not one clinical trial has shown it to be effective. Having people take it that don't need it can mean that people who do need it won't be able to get it.

The government is tasked with stepping in when it sees the people getting bilked out of their money. They don't always do it, because the bar for doing so is pretty high, so when they do it's reasonable to believe them.

I guess no one can stop anyone from acquiring it in the same sense that you can get away with acquiring an actual illegal substance, but people need to know that by doing so they're not taking a proven cure, they're putting themselves at possible risk and they're inhibiting others that the drug works for from acquiring it.
Don’t disagree with any of that. I know nothing about the drug. Have read it could benefit some people. Know it’s been in use for many years so I imagine the side effects are well known at this point.

I wouldn’t suggest it’s some miracle drug. I’m sure some extreme people have made that claim. Our issue is we have extreme people on both sides. The answer probably lies somewhere in the middle.



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Re: Cure worse than the problem?

Post by ilovethecats » Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:16 pm

The Butcher wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:41 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:56 am
Like masks, if it can save even ONE life, I think it should be used if a person wants to use it. What a concept!
CDC - Masks work!
FDA - Hydroxychloroquine doesn't work!
Trump supporters - Masks don't work, hydroxychloroquine works!
If it’s anything like many other aspects of this virus, the CDC and FDA could flip flop these stances and people would be forced to make a decision. :lol:



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Re: Cure worse than the problem?

Post by Rich K » Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:28 pm

Where do they find these quacks?
Dr. Harvey Risch is Professor of Epidemiology in the Department of Epidemiology and Public Health at the Yale School of Public Health and Yale School of Medicine. Dr. Risch received his MD degree from the University of California San Diego and PhD from the University of Chicago. After serving as a postdoctoral fellow in epidemiology at the University of Washington, Dr. Risch was a faculty member in epidemiology and biostatistics at the University of Toronto before coming to Yale. Dr. Risch's research interests are in the areas of cancer etiology, prevention and early diagnosis, and in epidemiologic methods. He is especially interested in the effects of reproductive factors, diet, genetic predisposition, histopathologic factors, occupational/environmental/medication exposures, infection and immune functioning in cancer etiology. His major research projects have included studies of ovarian cancer, pancreas cancer, lung cancer, bladder cancer, esophageal and stomach cancer, and of cancers related to usage of oral contraceptives and noncontraceptive estrogens. Dr. Risch is Associate Editor of the Journal of the National Cancer Institute, Editor of the International Journal of Cancer, and Member of the Board of Editors, the American Journal of Epidemiology. Dr. Risch is an author of more than 325 original research publications in the medical literature, has an h-index of 88, and is a Member of the Connecticut Academy of Sciences and Engineering.


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Re: Cure worse than the problem?

Post by Cataholic » Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:35 pm

The Butcher wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:03 am
Cataholic wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:52 am
The Butcher wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:29 am
Rich- You obviously do not believe healthcare professionals or you have some type of stake in the drug. That doesn't change the fact that social media and MSM are NOT going to pedal this ineffective drug that can have severe side effects. Sorry buddy.
You obsession that hydroxychloroquine cannot work is what is baffling. Rich showed some studies that it works and you automatically discount them as not accurate just because it was on social media. And what severe side effects are you talking about? This drug has been used for decades to treat malaria and lupus, but now it is unsafe?
Ummmmm the FDA... :? :shock: :?

July 1, 2020 Update: A summary of the FDA review of safety issues with the use of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine to treat hospitalized patients with COVID-19 is now available. This includes reports of serious heart rhythm problems and other safety issues, including blood and lymph system disorders, kidney injuries, and liver problems and failure.


June 15, 2020 Update: Based on ongoing analysis and emerging scientific data, FDA has revoked the emergency use authorization (EUA) to use hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine to treat COVID-19 in certain hospitalized patients when a clinical trial is unavailable or participation is not feasible. We made this determination based on recent results from a large, randomized clinical trial in hospitalized patients that found these medicines showed no benefit for decreasing the likelihood of death or speeding recovery. This outcome was consistent with other new data, including those showing the suggested dosing for these medicines are unlikely to kill or inhibit the virus that causes COVID-19. As a result, we determined that the legal criteria for the EUA are no longer met. Please refer to the Revocation of the EUA Letter and FAQs on the Revocation of the EUA for Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate and Chloroquine Phosphate for more information.
The same FDA that approved use for Malaria and Lupus and has seen it safely used for 50+ years.



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Re: Cure worse than the problem?

Post by CelticCat » Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:40 pm

Cataholic wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:44 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:33 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:20 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:19 pm
The Butcher wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:05 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:57 pm
The Butcher wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:30 pm
I am just amazed that people think these wack jobs on Breitbart are more trust worthy than the CDC, FDA, WHO, Universities (i.e. Boston Medical, Oxford, University of Minnesota), etc. Trump has really done a number on people!
Since you mentioned the FDA, did you know that HCQ has been approved and deemed safe for use by them?

You can believe what you want, but I'm not a Trump worshipper. I just want people to have the right to try drugs that have shown promise in some studies, especially FDA-approved drugs that have been on the market for 60 years. Whats the harm there? Why are you trying to make people feel stupid about this? Even CNN recently put out an article about how HCQ "might" be able to help after all. CNN! Thats almost as big as if Joe Biden himself said it.
That is not correct...
You are not suppose to use the drug for COVID. You use the drug for malaria.
This is actually from the FDA website.
https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-a ... oquine-and

EDIT: ghobs95 beat me to the punch
Well, I'm a "right to try" type of guy, so I'm all for using HCQ or marijuana or whatever a person wants to try if they get sick. Where do you fall on the "right to try" spectrum?

And the study used by the FDA to poopoo HCQ for COVID has been questioned by many doctors. Newer studies have been done since then (such as the one cited by CNN) that show HCQ does have benefits.
I could be wrong but can't you still use this? And doctors should still be able to recommend it I believe.

What has changed is the FDA revoked the emergency use authorization. They let it fly early on as we were trying anything. After testing large groups of people the side effects didn't warrant the risk for emergency use. But I was under the impressing it could still be used in certain situations? Maybe not.
As far as I've heard, you cannot get HCQ in most states to treat COVID. Doctors won't/can't prescribe it for COVID and many pharmacies won't sell it now, due to the early June? study that showed it caused heart problems and increased death risk.

Does anyone else find it odd that a drug that was safely used worldwide for 65 years suddenly starting causing heart problems and death? Wouldn't that have shown up over 65 years of use? Until 2020, this drug had a safety rating not much worse than Aspirin. Its very very strange, and unprecedented. Something to consider thinking about.
Posters like The Butcher and Hokeyfine have Trump derangement syndrome. They simply want Trump to fail. If Biden said that hydro chloroquine worked, it would be a wonder drug to the left.
If CNN and MSNBC said it worked, you'd avoid it at all costs.


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Re: Cure worse than the problem?

Post by RickRund » Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:23 pm

CelticCat wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:40 pm
Cataholic wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:44 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:33 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:20 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:19 pm
The Butcher wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:05 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:57 pm
The Butcher wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:30 pm
I am just amazed that people think these wack jobs on Breitbart are more trust worthy than the CDC, FDA, WHO, Universities (i.e. Boston Medical, Oxford, University of Minnesota), etc. Trump has really done a number on people!
Since you mentioned the FDA, did you know that HCQ has been approved and deemed safe for use by them?

You can believe what you want, but I'm not a Trump worshipper. I just want people to have the right to try drugs that have shown promise in some studies, especially FDA-approved drugs that have been on the market for 60 years. Whats the harm there? Why are you trying to make people feel stupid about this? Even CNN recently put out an article about how HCQ "might" be able to help after all. CNN! Thats almost as big as if Joe Biden himself said it.
That is not correct...
You are not suppose to use the drug for COVID. You use the drug for malaria.
This is actually from the FDA website.
https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-a ... oquine-and

EDIT: ghobs95 beat me to the punch
Well, I'm a "right to try" type of guy, so I'm all for using HCQ or marijuana or whatever a person wants to try if they get sick. Where do you fall on the "right to try" spectrum?

And the study used by the FDA to poopoo HCQ for COVID has been questioned by many doctors. Newer studies have been done since then (such as the one cited by CNN) that show HCQ does have benefits.
I could be wrong but can't you still use this? And doctors should still be able to recommend it I believe.

What has changed is the FDA revoked the emergency use authorization. They let it fly early on as we were trying anything. After testing large groups of people the side effects didn't warrant the risk for emergency use. But I was under the impressing it could still be used in certain situations? Maybe not.
As far as I've heard, you cannot get HCQ in most states to treat COVID. Doctors won't/can't prescribe it for COVID and many pharmacies won't sell it now, due to the early June? study that showed it caused heart problems and increased death risk.

Does anyone else find it odd that a drug that was safely used worldwide for 65 years suddenly starting causing heart problems and death? Wouldn't that have shown up over 65 years of use? Until 2020, this drug had a safety rating not much worse than Aspirin. Its very very strange, and unprecedented. Something to consider thinking about.
Posters like The Butcher and Hokeyfine have Trump derangement syndrome. They simply want Trump to fail. If Biden said that hydro chloroquine worked, it would be a wonder drug to the left.
If CNN and MSNBC said it worked, you'd avoid it at all costs.
Uhhhhhhhhhh, no.



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Re: Cure worse than the problem?

Post by TomCat88 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:23 am



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Re: Cure worse than the problem?

Post by Rich K » Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:16 am

Just another bit of fluff to ignore



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Re: Cure worse than the problem?

Post by Rich K » Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:27 pm



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Re: Cure worse than the problem?

Post by Rich K » Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:41 pm



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Re: Cure worse than the problem?

Post by The Butcher » Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:52 pm

Rich K wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:41 pm
Bro, if you want to drop a couple of HCQ pills followed by a bleach chaser for the full Trump medical cure, have at it!



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Re: Cure worse than the problem?

Post by The Butcher » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:15 pm

Trump spoke of herd “mentality“ at his town hall meeting. I presume he meant herd immunity.

There are approximately 328.2 million people in the US.

To get to the low end of herd immunity, about 60% of the population must catch Covid.

That's about 196,920,000 cases.

The current US death rate is about 2.96%.

So that's 5,836,679 deaths necessary for herd immunity.

Not great.



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Re: Cure worse than the problem?

Post by TomCat88 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:16 am

The Butcher wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:15 pm
Trump spoke of herd “mentality“ at his town hall meeting. I presume he meant herd immunity.

There are approximately 328.2 million people in the US.

To get to the low end of herd immunity, about 60% of the population must catch Covid.

That's about 196,920,000 cases.

The current US death rate is about 2.96%.

So that's 5,836,679 deaths necessary for herd immunity.

Not great.
I think the death rate would go down over time with advancements in preventive care and medicine. Even if it’s 0.5% that’s still almost 1,000,000 deaths.

We’ll have a vaccine way before, so it won’t get to that fortunately. Once the vaccine gets into full swing there will still be deaths and hospitalizations, but the fear and focus will subside.


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Re: Cure worse than the problem?

Post by iaafan » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:37 am




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Re: Cure worse than the problem?

Post by rivercat » Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:35 am

The Butcher wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:15 pm
Trump spoke of herd “mentality“ at his town hall meeting. I presume he meant herd immunity.

There are approximately 328.2 million people in the US.

To get to the low end of herd immunity, about 60% of the population must catch Covid.

That's about 196,920,000 cases.

The current US death rate is about 2.96%.

So that's 5,836,679 deaths necessary for herd immunity.

Not great.
I see you copied a tweet from CNN's Kyle Feldscher who later took down the tweet down saying:

"I deleted my tweet about herd immunity -- the level of immunity needed to interrupt transmission isn't clear and calculations about infection rates and death rates are more complicated than my simple math implies,"

Feldschers' tweet was responded to with information indicating his simplified math was off by more than a factor of 10.

People that are not epidemiologists or experts knowing the context of the numbers need to stop this kind of crap.


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Re: Cure worse than the problem?

Post by Cataholic » Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:48 am

rivercat wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:35 am
The Butcher wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:15 pm
Trump spoke of herd “mentality“ at his town hall meeting. I presume he meant herd immunity.

There are approximately 328.2 million people in the US.

To get to the low end of herd immunity, about 60% of the population must catch Covid.

That's about 196,920,000 cases.

The current US death rate is about 2.96%.

So that's 5,836,679 deaths necessary for herd immunity.

Not great.
I see you copied a tweet from CNN's Kyle Feldscher who later took down the tweet down saying:

"I deleted my tweet about herd immunity -- the level of immunity needed to interrupt transmission isn't clear and calculations about infection rates and death rates are more complicated than my simple math implies,"

Feldschers' tweet was responded to with information indicating his simplified math was off by more than a factor of 10.

People that are not epidemiologists or experts knowing the context of the numbers need to stop this kind of crap.
=D^ =D^



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Re: Cure worse than the problem?

Post by The Butcher » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:11 pm

rivercat wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:35 am
The Butcher wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:15 pm
Trump spoke of herd “mentality“ at his town hall meeting. I presume he meant herd immunity.

There are approximately 328.2 million people in the US.

To get to the low end of herd immunity, about 60% of the population must catch Covid.

That's about 196,920,000 cases.

The current US death rate is about 2.96%.

So that's 5,836,679 deaths necessary for herd immunity.

Not great.
I see you copied a tweet from CNN's Kyle Feldscher who later took down the tweet down saying:

"I deleted my tweet about herd immunity -- the level of immunity needed to interrupt transmission isn't clear and calculations about infection rates and death rates are more complicated than my simple math implies,"

Feldschers' tweet was responded to with information indicating his simplified math was off by more than a factor of 10.

People that are not epidemiologists or experts knowing the context of the numbers need to stop this kind of crap.
Sorry it was the Hydroxychloroquine typing. :wink: :wink: :wink:



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