Who actually pays taxes?

[Ponycat]

Individually, we both did make more than our parents. Right out of college. How does that fit your "caste system"?

When I quit working, we dropped from the upper 5% to right below the upper 10%. I drive a used mini van with 90,000 miles. We have one house, and it cost less than $100,000. My husband drives a used pickup.

Sure are living that high life you described, aren't we? We have a very good life, but we've worked hard for it. Nothing was handed to us, we both worked through college, and are still paying off student loans.

I already said that Americans are brainwashed thinking there is no caste system, and no doubt you are one of those brainwashed. A couple of posts on BN is not going to break that hold on you. America is a great country, the best in the world, but opportunities are not the same for all Americans. I for one do not believe my children will have the same opportunities as John Kerry’s children will. Of course I could be delusional like you and pretend that they will…

You honestly think that you are in the top 5-10% of the richest Americans? If you were you most certainly would not have any student loans. You realize that the top 5-10% have a net worth over $100 million. Is your husband at Microsoft?

Top 5% of the wage earners (above $130,080) pay 54.36% of the taxes.
Top 10% of the wage earners (above $94,891) pay 65.84% of the taxes.

I think this is what she was refering to.

[ChiOCat]

According to the annual wages posted above, which I have seen before.

No, I do not think my kids will have the same opportunities that Kerry's children have. But do I believe that in any way will stop them from being able to do what they want? NO.

[briannell]

so that top 5-10% that have over 100 million made it the old fashioned way - or most did anyway - how does that make it bad for them to enjoy what they've work their butts off to earn. i see no problem with letting the HARD WORKING ones enjoy it. Paris Hilton lives off her families hard work not her own - so trashing her doesn't ruffle any feathers on me.

oh and today's dollar values compared to our parents dollar value is very skewed so it's hard to compare their salaries to ours today.

[ChiOCat]

caste system - the ranking of members in a society by occupational status and degree of purity or pollution as determined by their birth.

My children may not have it as easy as the Kerry's (or Kennedy's) but there is nothing stopping them from reaching that echelon.

My question is why be so derogatory. Is saying I'm brainwashed really necessary? Why is anyone that doesn't agree automatically dumb, buying the party line, believing what they are told, etc.

I have said before, my in laws are staunch dems, my husband was a member of the jr dem party. I was determined to be an independant. Until we both started working, paying taxes, and developing our own world views.

[Hell's Bells]

caste system - the ranking of members in a society by occupational status and degree of purity or pollution as determined by their birth.

My children may not have it as easy as the Kerry's (or Kennedy's) but there is nothing stopping them from reaching that echelon.

My question is why be so derogatory. Is saying I'm brainwashed really necessary? Why is anyone that doesn't agree automatically dumb, buying the party line, believing what they are told, etc.

I have said before, my in laws are staunch dems, my husband was a member of the jr dem party. I was determined to be an independant. Until we both started working, paying taxes, and developing our own world views.

my question is what is wrong with being rich?

[ChiOCat]

True that too HB. I guess I was brainwashed listening to my stepdad tell me about he came from nothing and ended up with a few companies.

Or Paul Allen, Bill Gates, the Google guys, Napolean Dynamite. History is full of people that broke out of the caste system and and brainwashed so many of us.

[G.W.Bush]

True that too HB. I guess I was brainwashed listening to my stepdad tell me about he came from nothing and ended up with a few companies.

Or Paul Allen, Bill Gates, the Google guys, Napolean Dynamite. History is full of people that broke out of the caste system and and brainwashed so many of us.

If we didn't have the occasion success stories then what would people like yourself use to explain the "non-existing" caste system? Look at the 100 riches people in America, and then look at how many of them inherited their wealth. I would say 90% of them inherited their wealth. Look at the 1000 richest American, I would venture that 85% of them inherited their wealth. If you are born wealthy in America you will stay wealthy. If you are born poor you most likely will remain poor. I will go out on a limb here and say you could walk the slums of New York and you will not find one former millionaire living on the street. I am sure that you think your child could be the next president of the United States, but please tell me which one of our recent presidents was not considered wealthy prior to being elected president.

[briannell]

I agree with Heather here there are many "wealthy" people that came from poor backgrounds that made something of themselves by hard work. Hell Bill Clinton became president!!!!! here my uncle was an orphan and look what he became - perfect example of hard work gets you where you want to go. i think like heathers family our kids will go far and they are Army brats. so your caste system is a very narrow view. Oh and death taxes in CA are HUGE!!!!!



SUN DEDICATES NEW PALO ALTO CORPORATE FACILITY TO BOARD MEMBER

SunFLASH Vol 15 #2 March 1990
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Funds Local Youth Community Services Program


PALO ALTO --March 2, 1990-- Sun Microsystems today dedicated its new
five-story, 255,000-square-foot corporate facility in Palo Alto to
venture capitalist Robert Sackman, one of the company's original board
members and a general partner of U.S. Venture Partners in Menlo Park.
The building, located on San Antonio Road near Highway 101, is the
first facility to be owned by Sun and was recently occupied by 750
employees, including President/CEO Scott McNealy and several other
corporate executives. Sun purchased the building in June 1988 and
performed extensive remodeling.

"We dedicate this facility to Bob Sackman in appreciation of his eight
years of advice, encouragement and vision," stated McNealy. "We're
deeply grateful for his participation in helping Sun become the leading
workstation manufacturer in such a short time."

Besides being an original board member, Sackman was one of Sun's first
venture capitalists. A founder of U.S. Venture Partners, he has more
than 40 years of experience in research and development and in the
management of high-technology companies. Besides sitting on the board
of directors of Sun, he is a director of several medical research
foundations.

An area of special interest to Sackman is science education in
secondary school. To that end, he has funded and takes an active role
in a program for minority and other students at Brooklyn Technical High
School, of which he is an alumnus. Sackman has been a founding member
of the Charles Armstrong Medical Research Foundation. One of its
primary programs is the Charles Armstrong School in Belmont, a
nonprofit private coeducational day school serving children and adults
who have specific language disability.

McNealy announced that Sun has made a $20,000 donation in Sackman's
name to fund a year-long youth community service program, reflecting
Sackman's interest in helping youth. It will train 50 students from
Ravenswood Middle School in East Palo Alto and Gunn and Palo Alto High
Schools and the Jane Lathrop Stanford Middle School in Palo Alto, who
will spearhead a range of volunteer activities that will involve
hundreds of students from their respective schools.

Accepting the donation was Palo Alto Mayor Mike Cobb, accompanied by
Paul Thiltgen, director of the Social and Community Services Department
in Palo Alto and Dr. Charlie Mae Knight, superintendent of the
Ravenswood City School District in East Palo Alto. The program is
modeled on a very successful effort in Los Angeles that has made
students more involved in their community and also more motivated in
school.

Besides the new Palo Alto facility in the Bay Area, Sun leases 1.1
million square feet of office space in Mountain View, Palo Alto and
Menlo Park and 1.3 million square feet of office and manufacturing
space in Milpitas and Fremont.

Sun Microsystems, Inc., headquartered in Mountain View, Calif., is a
leading worldwide supplier of network-based distributed computing
systems, including professional workstations, servers and UNIX
operating system and productivity software.

###

UNIX is a registered trademark of AT&T.

Press Contact:
Kim Miller (415) 336-7583

[ChiOCat]

caste system - the ranking of members in a society by occupational status and degree of purity or pollution as determined by their birth.

My children may not have it as easy as the Kerry's (or Kennedy's) but there is nothing stopping them from reaching that echelon.

My question is why be so derogatory. Is saying I'm brainwashed really necessary? Why is anyone that doesn't agree automatically dumb, buying the party line, believing what they are told, etc.

I have said before, my in laws are staunch dems, my husband was a member of the jr dem party. I was determined to be an independant. Until we both started working, paying taxes, and developing our own world views.

Doin't wanna answer that?

[couloir41]

there are many stories of rags to riches...even more tragic stories of men and women who diligently conscientiously and in many ways brilliantly worked their lives away and died penniless...just go to the the miners grave yard on the butte flats...or any cemetary for that matter...there are many more paupers graves than wealthy...

most wealth is generated from the honest toil...intellectual or manual labor...of employees for owners...so wealth is generated from the "sweat of laborers"...period...currently the gap between the wealthy and the poor is the widest it has ever been and it is growing...by the existence of the gap there is by definition a "caste" system in our economy (society)...there are many reasons for the gap but a major reason is because outsourcing among others...

taxes...an individual should pay taxes in amounts that are proportionate to that individuals ability to access the finer and more exclusive commodities and services he or she can afford...in simple terms if you make a lot of money you should pay a lot of taxes...because you use more resources...and as previously stated you can afford it...

tax cuts...the middle class and lower class should received the bulk of future tax cuts...if those classes get a tax break it is spent almost immediately on goods that are in turn manufactured by the companies they work for and the owners get their cost profit...or return on investment...and indirectly...their share of the awarded tax break...and the economy rolls...simple...

[rtb]

most wealth is generated from the honest toil...intellectual or manual labor...of employees for owners...so wealth is generated from the "sweat of laborers"...period

But where would the laborers have the means to produce the intellectual and manual labor if someone hadn't started the company? Owners/Presidents/CEO aren't simply riding the hard work of their employees. Most of them have had the vision to build a company and empower their employees to do great things.

currently the gap between the wealthy and the poor is the widest it has ever been and it is growing...by the existence of the gap there is by definition a "caste" system in our economy (society)...there are many reasons for the gap but a major reason is because outsourcing among others...

I am not sure what your definition of a Caste system is, but by most definitions a wealth gap isn't the definition of a Caste system. A caste system is something you are born into and have no mobility among the classes.

For example:Caste systems are traditional, hereditary systems of social stratification(source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste)

in simple terms if you make a lot of money you should pay a lot of taxes...because you use more resources...and as previously stated you can afford it...

While I don't disagree with the idea if you make more you should pay more tax as that seems pretty fair. However the wealthy do not use more resources. I would say the poor use more resources in term of medicare, welfare, public education, etc. That is a very blanket statement that I don't think you can say without a lot of further research.

tax cuts...the middle class and lower class should received the bulk of future tax cuts...if those classes get a tax break it is spent almost immediately on goods that are in turn manufactured by the companies they work for and the owners get their cost profit...or return on investment...and indirectly...their share of the awarded tax break...and the economy rolls...simple...

Why shouldn't tax cuts work in the same fashion as tax breaks? Tax breaks should be proportional to the taxes you pay. In addition if you take your example of the impact on the economy the wealthy are more likely to invest their share of the tax break which inturn injects money into the economy, creates jobs, which trickles down to increase the money in everyone's pocket. Also, it allows for the wealthy to be even more philanthropic which takes pressure off of government programs and again the economy roles.

I was also going to take the Forbes 400 list and show GW just how many of those on the list came from a lower class and are now very wealthy. The idea that 90% of the top 100 inherited their wealth is inaccurate. I don't have time to break down the top 100, but looking at the top 10 there isn't one person that didn't improve their standing and make a lot more than their parents.

1 Gates, William Henry III Microsoft
2 Buffett, Warren Edward Berkshire Hathaway
3 Allen, Paul Gardner Microsoft, investments
4 Dell, Michael Dell
5 Ellison, Lawrence Joseph Oracle
6 Walton, Christy Wal-Mart
7 Walton, Jim C Wal-Mart
8 Walton, S Robson Wal-Mart
9 Walton, Alice L Wal-Mart
10 Walton, Helen R Wal-Mart

When the Walton Childern took over Wal-Mart it wasn't a multi-billion dollar company. They built on what their father started which was one small store. Michael Dell, Larry Ellison and Bill Gates all built their companies from the ground up and Warren Buffet came from a moderately wealthy family, but truly built his wealth on his own. The majority of the list reads that way. Take some time and get to understand the stories of these people, there are many incredible stories.

[PortlandCat]

GW, I have to say your statement about a caste system is idiotic.

I am a child of a poor dirt farmer who is the child of an immigrant. Neither of my parents went to college. They work had and have made a good life. I was fortunate, went to college, borrowed money and went to grad school. I work hard and live well within your top 5%. I work with a number of the elite who live in a world I will probably never know. However, the key to success in this country is not birthright but brains and balls.

Your statements indicate to me that you are lacking one or both elements.

[catsrback76]

GW has taken the argument that once rich "always rich" and once poor "always poor" which is simply ridiculous. Ask Bill Gates to tell you his story.

Caste systems do not permit across class marriage, work, life stations. In this country no caste system is imposed. It is true that it is difficult to break out of "the mindset" of poverty if one is born in it, however, difficulty is not a caste it's often a paradigm.

On a slightly different angle, in order to appreciate the level of poverty and wealth that this country lives in one only needs to travel and "live" with some of the rest of the planet.

As per Bread for the World Institute and the World Bank, approx 1.3 BILLION people live in "grinding poverty" ( less than 1.00 dollar/day) with an additional 1.3 Billion in "absolute" poverty ( essentially nothing). In fact, " a majority of people today--3 BILLION--live on less than 2.00 dollars/day."
The takeaway? We are the affluent minority on the planet, even when we see poverty in this nation. My taxes and yours also provide safety nets for our populace that no other nation can claim to offer to their poor. My point is that we need to be very clear about our wealth.To live here is to live in the wealthiest culture who has ever graced this planet.

If you want to move up or down here, you can. But when you move up or down the economic ladder in the USA you are climbing a ladder no other nation can really claim to have. Our poor have access to "wealth" that most peoples on this planet can't even dream about.

OK. I'm done.

[grizbeer]

GW has taken the argument that once rich "always rich" and once poor "always poor" which is simply ridiculous. Ask Bill Gates to tell you his story.

Bill Gates is a poor example, his father was a partner in one of the most elite and expensive law firms in Seattle, and had enough money/pull for Bill to go to Harvard. Bill was born with a silver spoon, but clearly made the most of it.

Better examples are Steve Jobs, and the best example I can think of is Mark Cuban - the guy sold garbage bags and milk door to door as a kid, and gave disco dancing lessons to pay his way through college.

The fact that somebody can go from disco lessons to billionaire in 20 years is proof that there is no caste system.

[catsrback76]

GW has taken the argument that once rich "always rich" and once poor "always poor" which is simply ridiculous. Ask Bill Gates to tell you his story.

Bill Gates is a poor example, his father was a partner in one of the most elite and expensive law firms in Seattle, and had enough money/pull for Bill to go to Harvard. Bill was born with a silver spoon, but clearly made the most of it.

Better examples are Steve Jobs, and the best example I can think of is Mark Cuban - the guy sold garbage bags and milk door to door as a kid, and gave disco dancing lessons to pay his way through college.

The fact that somebody can go from disco lessons to billionaire in 20 years is proof that there is no caste system.

I understand Grizbeer that Bill was not from grinding poverty, BUT, to go from where he was to astronomical wealth still makes the point. That being said, Jobs, Cuban and others does give us the better illustration.

[ChiOCat]

GW has taken the argument that once rich "always rich" and once poor "always poor" which is simply ridiculous. Ask Bill Gates to tell you his story.

Caste systems do not permit across class marriage, work, life stations. In this country no caste system is imposed. It is true that it is difficult to break out of "the mindset" of poverty if one is born in it, however, difficulty is not a caste it's often a paradigm.

On a slightly different angle, in order to appreciate the level of poverty and wealth that this country lives in one only needs to travel and "live" with some of the rest of the planet.

As per Bread for the World Institute and the World Bank, approx 1.3 BILLION people live in "grinding poverty" ( less than 1.00 dollar/day) with an additional 1.3 Billion in "absolute" poverty ( essentially nothing). In fact, " a majority of people today--3 BILLION--live on less than 2.00 dollars/day."
The takeaway? We are the affluent minority on the planet, even when we see poverty in this nation. My taxes and yours also provide safety nets for our populace that no other nation can claim to offer to their poor. My point is that we need to be very clear about our wealth.To live here is to live in the wealthiest culture who has ever graced this planet.

If you want to move up or down here, you can. But when you move up or down the economic ladder in the USA you are climbing a ladder no other nation can really claim to have. Our poor have access to "wealth" that most peoples on this planet can't even dream about.

OK. I'm done.

[G.W.Bush]

GW, I have to say your statement about a caste system is idiotic.

I am a child of a poor dirt farmer who is the child of an immigrant. Neither of my parents went to college. They work had and have made a good life. I was fortunate, went to college, borrowed money and went to grad school. I work hard and live well within your top 5%. I work with a number of the elite who live in a world I will probably never know. However, the key to success in this country is not birthright but brains and balls.

Your statements indicate to me that you are lacking one or both elements.

I think we need everyone on this board to stop and think for just one moment...

The people on this site are not a very good representation of American society. We all obviously have professional jobs that we sit behind computers all day. The type of work that we do pays much better then collecting garbage or working as a waiter. Most of us also are fans of the Bobcats because we attended MSU and in many cases received our degrees. Only 25% of Americans have a 4 year degree. Our own personal stories DO NOT fit those of an average American. Go ask your garbage man what his father did for a living. I would make a wage that their father did not have a white collar job. Everyone that is attacking my position on this matter simply use examples from their lives. Look outside the box, because we are not good representation of the majority of Americans. There are 280 million other Americans, and most are not as fortunate as us. There are nearly 36 million Americans in poverty, and their families are much better examples of a caste system then Mark Cuban's life.

rtb, listing the Walton's is ridicules. They are all share holders- shares they received from the passing of Walton Sr (inherited wealth). Their involvement in the corporation is minimal. Just cut your list in half.

[catsrback76]

GW, I have to say your statement about a caste system is idiotic.

I am a child of a poor dirt farmer who is the child of an immigrant. Neither of my parents went to college. They work had and have made a good life. I was fortunate, went to college, borrowed money and went to grad school. I work hard and live well within your top 5%. I work with a number of the elite who live in a world I will probably never know. However, the key to success in this country is not birthright but brains and balls.

Your statements indicate to me that you are lacking one or both elements.

I think we need everyone on this board to stop and think for just one moment...

The people on this site are not a very good representation of American society. We all obviously have professional jobs that we sit behind computers all day. The type of work that we do pays much better then collecting garbage or working as a waiter. Most of us also are fans of the Bobcats because we attended MSU and in many cases received our degrees. Only 25% of Americans have a 4 year degree. Our own personal stories DO NOT fit those of an average American. Go ask your garbage man what his father did for a living. I would make a wage that their father did not have a white collar job. Everyone that is attacking my position on this matter simply use examples from their lives. Look outside the box, because we are not good representation of the majority of Americans. There are 280 million other Americans, and most are not as fortunate as us. There are nearly 36 million Americans in poverty, and their families are much better examples of a caste system then Mark Cuban's life.

rtb, listing the Walton's is ridicules. They are all share holders- shares they received from the passing of Walton Sr (inherited wealth). Their involvement in the corporation is minimal. Just cut your list in half.

GW. check out this link from the Seattle Times.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/l ... rs14e.html

Though it may be true that some in poverty don't know the way to get out, in the US it can be said, that if there "is a will there is a way". Having adopted an adult child from Russia and seen her struggle not with her options, but with her paradigms of poverty, the greater work is to constantly challenge, teach and show the way to succeed at higher levels. My daughter "chooses" to default to poverty when she lives in the land of plenty, because in her words, "I feel more comfortable living this way".

Don't come down on me for generalizing, I know what I'm saying here and that it isn't universal. But I will contend, having worked with those in poverty that the problem is less about resources and "a caste system" than it is about "willing" change through change.

[ChiOCat]

GW, I have to say your statement about a caste system is idiotic.

I am a child of a poor dirt farmer who is the child of an immigrant. Neither of my parents went to college. They work had and have made a good life. I was fortunate, went to college, borrowed money and went to grad school. I work hard and live well within your top 5%. I work with a number of the elite who live in a world I will probably never know. However, the key to success in this country is not birthright but brains and balls.

Your statements indicate to me that you are lacking one or both elements.

I think we need everyone on this board to stop and think for just one moment...

The people on this site are not a very good representation of American society. We all obviously have professional jobs that we sit behind computers all day. The type of work that we do pays much better then collecting garbage or working as a waiter. Most of us also are fans of the Bobcats because we attended MSU and in many cases received our degrees. Only 25% of Americans have a 4 year degree. Our own personal stories DO NOT fit those of an average American. Go ask your garbage man what his father did for a living. I would make a wage that their father did not have a white collar job. Everyone that is attacking my position on this matter simply use examples from their lives. Look outside the box, because we are not good representation of the majority of Americans. There are 280 million other Americans, and most are not as fortunate as us. There are nearly 36 million Americans in poverty, and their families are much better examples of a caste system then Mark Cuban's life.

rtb, listing the Walton's is ridicules. They are all share holders- shares they received from the passing of Walton Sr (inherited wealth). Their involvement in the corporation is minimal. Just cut your list in half.

Yes, but many of us grew up in very small MT towns, and have many friends that did not attend college. More than half my class did not, and they are all doing fairly well. Some better then others, but all are more than surviving.

I have three cousins that did not attend college, two of them have just built houses much nicer than mine.

It may not be easy to break out of the place you are born into. It will usually take hard work and determination. But it can be done.

[rtb]

So I just typed a long response to some of your "claims" GW, but the database was messed up. Anyway for you to say we are all college grads and in cush jobs like our parents is ludacrious.

Neither one of my parents graduated from college, my dad works a very blue collar job, but they have worked hard to make a nice life for themselves. As a result I had the opportunity to go to college get an office job and will build on my future so my kids have even better opportunities. I am sorry that you are so jaded, but hard work and the right attitude can get you a lot farther in this world then where you were born can get you.