A Day Without Immigrants

[bobcatgrad2005]

Well folks, what are your opinions on immigrants protesting in the way they are?

[briannell]

illegal? or legal?

I like them, as I enjoy eating my food which I am too lazy to go pick from huge fields. I like to wear clothes that I'm too lazy to break my back sewing, oh and let's not forget cleanliness. As many of them can only work low income jobs, an example being housekeeper. who wants to stay in a dump? My grandparents were immigrants, very poor with crappy jobs, but I like my life. I have to say I'm positive about the contributions they make to our country. By the way, who here is Native American? As ONLY they can claim to be a non immigrant, we all came from them, so I think there's no way to "diss" them without doing it to ourselves.

[rtb]

While I agree that at some point all of us are "immigrants" and I do agree that many immigrants make huge contributions to our economy they are still ILLEGAL!

I would like to see a more controlled system to track migrant workers and also make sure that they are paying some taxes on the money earned here. The strain on many of our government services is placed there by illegal immigrants who aren't contributing taxes to those services.

I don't think we should kick out all illegal workers, but to start a documentation process and control the flow in and out would be a great start. I believe we also need to help solve the problems of corruption and cheating in thier government so that there is less incentive to risk their lives just to get into the US.

[briannell]

I agree that illegal workers often strain public service systems. however, may be growing up in CA and being around so many immigrants (legal) I was always amazed the deep devotion they had for America. How honored they were to live here, work here and raise families here, so legal immigrants i have no issues with. they want to give back, more so than many Americans. Next to becoming a mom, my sister-in-laws proudest life moments was becoming a citizen. She couldn't stop crying she was SOOOOOO happy to be an American. If you go to a citizenship ceremony, you'll see that the American Dream is so wonderful for those that did not grow up here. They all cry from the oldest to the youngest and say the pledge with more feeling than i've seen displayed at any rally I've been too.

[Ponycat]

My day has not been any different at all, and I have no problem with any type of immigrant as long as they are in this country legally. Yes, all our families were immigrants at one time but I'm guessing the majority went throught the proper steps to be legal.

On a side note. All the Mexican and Central American immigrants that I worked with in Denver and San Fransisco were here legally and they all where pretty adamantly against illegal immigrants "taking there jobs." It was a small sample but was surprising to me.

[rtb]

Looks like we all agree so far. Legal = good, probably more committed to the US than many that were born here. Illegal=problem issue that the government should try to fix.

[mslacat]

OK what do you feel about Bush's plan for "worker permits". Ie they can come into the US and work but get no benifits or protections.

[rtb]

OK what do you feel about Bush's plan for "worker permits". Ie they can come into the US and work but get no benifits or protections.

I would rather see the worker permits where with that permit you can work here, but you also are automatically taxed here. You will get some benefits and protections, but not all the benefits we get as citizens. It seems that allowing people to work here but providing no protections or benefits isn't the best solution.

[lifeloyalsigmsu]

OK what do you feel about Bush's plan for "worker permits". Ie they can come into the US and work but get no benifits or protections.

I'd like to see the politicians from both sides of the 2 major parties stay out of this and simply let the legal citizens of this country be allowed to vote on it. I know, it's a pipe dream, but a politician's "service" in my opinion is a joke anymore. Both the house and the senate need to be overhauled. They should have no say in this matter because they will only make decisions to cater to their party and the votes.

I am becoming increasingly more convinced that immigration is an issue that many Americans are concerned about and many of which will use that as their main factor/reason for which way they vote. I did run across an article that said immigration (and gas prices, of course) actually will have a stronger role in how many citizens will vote (even moreso than the war in Iraq).

I just wish that there could be a way for the politicians to stay out of the immigration matter completely and let the decision ride entirely on the country's voting populace.

[SonomaCat]

OK what do you feel about Bush's plan for "worker permits". Ie they can come into the US and work but get no benifits or protections.

I'd like to see the politicians from both sides of the 2 major parties stay out of this and simply let the legal citizens of this country be allowed to vote on it. I know, it's a pipe dream, but a politician's "service" in my opinion is a joke anymore. Both the house and the senate need to be overhauled. They should have no say in this matter because they will only make decisions to cater to their party and the votes.

I am becoming increasingly more convinced that immigration is an issue that many Americans are concerned about and many of which will use that as their main factor/reason for which way they vote. I did run across an article that said immigration (and gas prices, of course) actually will have a stronger role in how many citizens will vote (even moreso than the war in Iraq).

I just wish that there could be a way for the politicians to stay out of the immigration matter completely and let the decision ride entirely on the country's voting populace.

I'm not really following your rationale. I like the idea of the representative democracy. In fact, nearly every time the populace votes on hot button issue-specific matters (proposition system), they really mess it up. The average voter doesn't tend to understand the full implications of any issue to make a completely informed decision, and the proposition process tends to churn out radical ideas (that sounds great on the surface, but are usually tragically flawed) while the representative process forces bills to go through vigorous debate and change as people point out the flaws in it.

I agree that politicians are often not the most admirable folks, but putting issues directly in front voters is almost always a recipe for disaster ... not to mention that it is rigid (you only vote on one specific idea at a time with no room for improvement or amendment) and takes forever.

Not to mention that most voters vote with their emotions as opposed to their brains. That's not good. Laws created out of spite or anger never turn out really well.

[lifeloyalsigmsu]

OK what do you feel about Bush's plan for "worker permits". Ie they can come into the US and work but get no benifits or protections.

I'd like to see the politicians from both sides of the 2 major parties stay out of this and simply let the legal citizens of this country be allowed to vote on it. I know, it's a pipe dream, but a politician's "service" in my opinion is a joke anymore. Both the house and the senate need to be overhauled. They should have no say in this matter because they will only make decisions to cater to their party and the votes.

I am becoming increasingly more convinced that immigration is an issue that many Americans are concerned about and many of which will use that as their main factor/reason for which way they vote. I did run across an article that said immigration (and gas prices, of course) actually will have a stronger role in how many citizens will vote (even moreso than the war in Iraq).

I just wish that there could be a way for the politicians to stay out of the immigration matter completely and let the decision ride entirely on the country's voting populace.

I'm not really following your rationale. I like the idea of the representative democracy. In fact, nearly every time the populace votes on hot button issue-specific matters (proposition system), they really mess it up. The average voter doesn't tend to understand the full implications of any issue to make a completely informed decision, and the proposition process tends to churn out radical ideas (that sounds great on the surface, but are usually tragically flawed) while the representative process forces bills to go through vigorous debate and change as people point out the flaws in it.

I agree that politicians are often not the most admirable folks, but putting issues directly in front voters is almost always a recipe for disaster ... not to mention that it is rigid (you only vote on one specific idea at a time with no room for improvement or amendment) and takes forever.

Not to mention that most voters vote with their emotions as opposed to their brains. That's not good. Laws created out of spite or anger never turn out really well.

As opposed to politicians whose votes have been dictated by groups or corporations with deep pockets and thus a heavy influence?

I don't know the answer, but do you know of any laws created out "of spite or anger" that actually passed? If you're referring to the proposition(s) in Cali, then you'd know more than I.

Face it, by the time something is presented to the voters, it has been fine tuned by the politicians to benefit them in some way or another. I'd rather a law be voted on and passed/struck down based on the emotion or lack thereof of any type of voter whether they are uninformed or not.

[SonomaCat]

We (CA) have lots of laws that were very emotion based ... but lacking in terms of looking at the total picture. Mostly they relate to people simultaneously voting for tax cuts or limitations on taxing and also voting for new spending programs that sound too good to pass up (aka "The super duper bill that cures cancer, solves hunger, and gives everyone a cute bunny rabbit").

Those are more examples of people being purely selfish and lacking any accountability for the results.

The anger and spite laws are being seen in such things as the gay marriage stuff. Anytime a majority proactively votes to limit the rights of a minority, it's a little scary. I would hate to see what bizarre laws would end up on the books over the immigration issue after some good fear-mongering by both sides. I'd just rather the politicians sort it out -- at least they are limited by debate and gridlock if something really radical is proposed. I am a huge fan of gridlock -- it's keeps crazy ideas from either side from seeing the light of day ... usually even if there is a free bunny in it for everyone.

[lifeloyalsigmsu]

We (CA) have lots of laws that were very emotion based ... but lacking in terms of looking at the total picture. Mostly they relate to people simultaneously voting for tax cuts or limitations on taxing and also voting for new spending programs that sound too good to pass up (aka "The super duper bill that cures cancer, solves hunger, and gives everyone a cute bunny rabbit").

Those are more examples of people being purely selfish and lacking any accountability for the results.

The anger and spite laws are being seen in such things as the gay marriage stuff. Anytime a majority proactively votes to limit the rights of a minority, it's a little scary. I would hate to see what bizarre laws would end up on the books over the immigration issue after some good fear-mongering by both sides. I'd just rather the politicians sort it out -- at least they are limited by debate and gridlock if something really radical is proposed. I am a huge fan of gridlock -- it's keeps crazy ideas from either side from seeing the light of day ... usually even if there is a free bunny in it for everyone.

That's a good point that despite the views on politicians, they will at least debate the pros and cons of an issue.

My time here in AZ has given me a little more insight on the immigration issue through both my job and some of the incidents that occur between the Border Patrol and those who cross the border illegally (along with those who help them cross illegally). It's a quiet little war that is going on down here and, in my opinion, it will soon reach a boiling point for both sides. You see many people from both ends of the spectrum who state their cases emotionally but devoid of much rationale. On the other hand, there are those from both sides who fortunately can make a case based on the latter instead of the former.

[briannell]

life loyal - I heard a blip on tv that the mexican Army were bringing them across for drug smuggling, is that going on where you are?

I think that it will be too difficult to keep them out. Just this last week here in Seattle we had yet another cargo container full of chinese. can you imagine how desperate for a new life you must be to allow smugglers to ship you without food, water and supplies in a freight container. my heart goes out to them.

[lifeloyalsigmsu]

life loyal - I heard a blip on tv that the mexican Army were bringing them across for drug smuggling, is that going on where you are?

I think that it will be too difficult to keep them out. Just this last week here in Seattle we had yet another cargo container full of chinese. can you imagine how desperate for a new life you must be to allow smugglers to ship you without food, water and supplies in a freight container. my heart goes out to them.

Rebecca, I haven't heard about the Mexican army doing such a thing, but with all of the craziness and corruption going on at the border (on both sides), I wouldn't be the least bit surprised.

The drug smuggling operations are rampant and are getting more elaborate I understand. Not to mention, many of the drug smugglers are more well armed than our Border Patrol.

[DriftCat]

I wonder if all the ILLEGAL immigrants that are involved in crime in this country took the day off as well......I doubt it. Why is this a problem that the American people should have to deal with. Instead of looking at whats wrong with our immigration policy we should look at what is wrong with Mexico and why these people feel they need to flee their own country to have a chance in life.

[SonomaCat]

I wonder if all the ILLEGAL immigrants that are involved in crime in this country took the day off as well......I doubt it. Why is this a problem that the American people should have to deal with. Instead of looking at whats wrong with our immigration policy we should look at what is wrong with Mexico and why these people feel they need to flee their own country to have a chance in life.

Probably the same thing that was wrong with all of the countries that our ancestors came from. The U.S. is the land of opportunity, and our progress is (and has always, ever since we outlawed slavery) been built on the backs of the most recent newcomers. And they happily do that for us in the hopes that their children can live the lives that we now live.

[lifeloyalsigmsu]

I wonder if all the ILLEGAL immigrants that are involved in crime in this country took the day off as well......I doubt it. Why is this a problem that the American people should have to deal with. Instead of looking at whats wrong with our immigration policy we should look at what is wrong with Mexico and why these people feel they need to flee their own country to have a chance in life.

Well said.

I guess what pisses me off is that the antecedent term "illegal" is being ignored by many regarding an immigrant.

In the view of our nation's laws, I understand that crossing our border illegally is a crime. They aren't just illegal immigrants, they are criminal immigrants, each and every one that crosses the border illegally.

This leads me to questions that I'm sure many of you have already heard in this debate.

1. Should the 14th amendment (I think it's the 14th) be changed to say that children born in the States to non-citizen parents will not be granted US citizenship? I understand that the 14th amendment was originally intended in its words to apply only to the slaves.

2. Should a full time military presence be instituted at the borders? After all, our Senate recently overrided Bush and instead of certain monies going to the war in Iraq, they filtered some instead to our Border Patrol and their efforts.

3. How do you reasonably and efficiently target those employers who knowingly hire illegals (I know, "knowingly" is a term that could be very well debated)? After all, if they didn't do that type of hiring, then it might be safe to say that illegal immigration wouldn't be as problematic.

4. Once these employers are identified, how do you address those employees who are residing and working illegally in the US?

[DriftCat]

Yes....but our ancestors came over LEGALLY. If they are not willing to go through the proper chanels to get here whats that say. They are either: A- Too lazy, or B- Have reasons for not wanting the government to know they are here.

[DriftCat]

Another thing....If we are just letting them come across the border with no questions asked, how long before terrorists pick up spanish, shave the beard, and come across as an "immigrant" that just wants to help his family (by nuking Americans)?