Ted Turner/Stadium discussion

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Cat-theotherwhitemeat
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Post by Cat-theotherwhitemeat » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:02 pm

BozoneCat wrote:Unless someone on here has a few million dollars they want to throw MSU's way (please God, don't let that person ever be Ted Turner), then I am sure we could do it, but until then...
Hypothetically, if Ted stated he wanted to give millions to your school, you'd be disappointed? And you call me the idiot... :shock:
BozoneCat wrote:I'm pretty confident that idiots such as CTOWM have basically no idea what they are talking about when it comes to Bobcat Stadium. While we still have higher aspirations for it (as we should), 90%+ of all other I-AA programs would happily trade us their stadium for ours.
As I stated;
CTOWM wrote:I'll admit, compared to many others in the 1-AA world, it's not that bad.
I guess we agree on that one.
BozoneCat wrote:The scoreboard does need improvement
For someone who doesn't know your stadium very well, I sure have the same views as an "expert".
BozoneCat wrote:The seats don't suck anywhere but in the end zone.
And again, we agree. Why did you get all pissy?
BozoneCat wrote:The sound system does need improvement, for sure.
Are you seeing a pattern here? It's like, you concur with me about almost everything, just not the way I said it. The next time you want to start a nasty argument, don't be so agreeable.


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Post by Bleedinbluengold » Thu Apr 29, 2004 9:35 am

A stream of consciousness (or un-consciousness as the case may be)

I think if you consider that 20 years ago the average attendance was well under 10,000, and it has doubled since that time, it would be reasonable to assume that MSU would need a 30,000 seat stadium 10-20 years from now...that presumes the program continues its rise.

Further - as student populations rise, providing necessary seating for those students at athletic events will be a priority.

BTW - I'm aware of a plan that calls for having a designated hoops arena before doing much more construction at Reno H. I believe that plan results in a an indoor FB practice facility in Breeden.

I don't think Turner would ever give anything to MSU. His social/political views more closely resemble those taught at UM - that's not a slam on UM, its just a fact that UM is the liberal arts center, and Turner is a raging liberal. Even IF he suggested a donation to MSU, it would probably come with some sort of wacko concession that MSU could never agree to.



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Post by lifesapuntreturn » Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:56 pm

Bleedinbluengold wrote
I don't think Turner would ever give anything to MSU. His social/political views more closely resemble those taught at UM - that's not a slam on UM, its just a fact that UM is the liberal arts center, and Turner is a raging liberal. Even IF he suggested a donation to MSU, it would probably come with some sort of wacko concession that MSU could never agree to.
I think you're right, Turner is unlikely to donate anything to MSU, which is great as far as I'm concerned.

I believe that the MSU braintrust, both at Montana Hall and in the athletic department, is politically aware enough to recognize that accepting a donation from Turner of the size necessary to do any sort of construction on campus would create more fallout from alums, boosters, fans, etc. than it would be worth, both short term and long term.

Accepting money from him for additional work on the football stadium in return for putting his name on the stadium would mean MSU would be playing DIII football in five years in front of crowds of 500 people, IMHO.



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Post by couloir41 » Sat May 01, 2004 7:09 am

i can tell the board is really attracting some people with too much time on their hands...really...nothing better to do than turner bash...that's why the divorce rate is so high in this state...

if turner were to donate the sum of money it would take to finish the stadium absolutely no one would object...this state and it's institutions have been on welfare for so long we can't get by without it...just look at the ag...lumber and mining industries...we have always taken hand outs from whomever would give them to us...so if turner or someone like him (including political persuasion) did come along and drop a little jing on us we would all...every last hypocrite (sp) on this board would grovel...and maybe some of us would remember to thank him...



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Post by lifesapuntreturn » Sat May 01, 2004 3:35 pm

couloir41 wrote:
i can tell the board is really attracting some people with too much time on their hands...really...nothing better to do than turner bash...that's why the divorce rate is so high in this state...
Now there's a meaningful and insightful thought. As soon as somebody states a dislike for Turner and what he's all about, the response is a high quality statement like that one. Speaking of the caliber of people this board attracts... Take a look in the mirror.

couloir41 wrote:
if turner were to donate the sum of money it would take to finish the stadium absolutely no one would object...this state and it's institutions have been on welfare for so long we can't get by without it...just look at the ag...lumber and mining industries...we have always taken hand outs from whomever would give them to us...so if turner or someone like him (including political persuasion) did come along and drop a little jing on us we would all...every last hypocrite (sp) on this board would grovel...and maybe some of us would remember to thank him...
Wow - it's amazing how far out of touch with reality you are:
"...absolutely no one would object..."
"...been on welfare so long we can't get by without it..."
"...have always taken handouts from whomever would give them to us..."
"...every last hypocrite on this board would grovel..."

If that's where you stand, so be it. But spare me the lecture from on high with your all inclusive "absolutely no one, can't get by without it, always, and every last" phrases. With statements like you've made, there's no sense in even trying to have a meaningful discussion with you on this - you wouldn't begin to understand. Good luck to you. :roll: :roll:



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Post by SonomaCat » Sat May 01, 2004 3:51 pm

Can someone please explain to me why any affiliated with MSU WOULD complain if Turner generously donated a lot of cash to the school or to any particular project? That seems like the most silly thing imaginable. If there were string attached relating to the money, then I would understand that concerns could arise (and this would be the case regardless of who donated the cash).

The entire concept of public education is a "liberal" creation. Everybody pays taxes to support the betterment of the minority of the population who want a degree and who can't afford private schools in an idealistic pursuit to better society? That's hard-core liberalism right there. If a self-declared liberal wanted to donate money to MSU, I would be thrilled. You can't look a gift horse in the mouth, so they say. Exactly what things does Turner believe in that counter anything that MSU would fear being affiliated with?

I would be proud to sit in the Turner wing of Bobcat Stadium, if he were to kick in the cash... or any other named "wing" for anyone generous enough to give up the money.



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Post by couloir41 » Sat May 01, 2004 11:16 pm

punt return...bac alludes to a good point...why don't you...since you are so good with lists...list the things turner has done that are so objectionable to you...particularly if they had a direct effect on you...blanket statements like the ones you made in your post are statements only someone who might not know what they are talking about would make...step up mr. punt return...maybe you can enlighten me...



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Post by lifesapuntreturn » Sun May 02, 2004 6:30 pm

BAC - The way I am understanding your post is that you are taking Turner and labeling him a self-declared liberal. I think that's accurate. But in doing so I think you're moving the discussion to liberals in general rather than Turner specifically. It's Turner specifically I have the problem with, not liberals, or moderates, or conservatives, as a whole.

I don't care if a significant donor is liberal, moderate or conservative, generally speaking. I'm not saying I have to agree with them across the board in order for them to be acceptable as a significant donor. What I do care about is that Turner is extreme, polarizing, and as a result, very controversial. And he has been for many years. As a result, I think MSU would be not only taking Turner's money, for say the completion of construction of the football stadium, but they would be taking all of his years of accumulated baggage as well. It's a package deal and not one that would put MSU in a favorable light.

His public comments on a variety of subjects has touched on a number of social, political and religious issues over the years. Like them or not, he's entitled to them as are all the rest of us. But in doing so, he is polarizing and controversial and I do not think it would at all be in the best interests of MSU to take his money in return for naming a stadium or a building after him. The negative fallout from that association would far outweigh the financial benefits as far as I'm concerned and because of his comments and actions he's not someone I'd like to see affiliated with MSU.

As for your questions about what MSU or anyone affiliated with MSU would complain about or fear in regard to Turner, I have compiled a list of quotes made by Turner over the years, at the "request" of couloir41. Take them individually or take them as a body of work, but there's a lot there that is polarizing, and I don't think MSU needs to wade into the middle of those things by association just for a check from Turner because once they're in, they're in permanently. After reviewing the list below, will you still be proud to sit in a Turner wing at Bobcat Stadium?

mr. couloir41 -
punt return...bac alludes to a good point...why don't you...since you are so good with lists...list the things turner has done that are so objectionable to you...particularly if they had a direct effect on you...blanket statements like the ones you made in your post are statements only someone who might not know what they are talking about would make...step up mr. punt return...maybe you can enlighten me...
I guess you didn't like the list of your quotes, huh? They look pretty elitist when listed one right after the other, don't they?

At your request, below is a list of some of Turner's actions and quotes over the years. If you want more, they're out there and readily accessible, because he has produced so many of them over the years.

So, here's my attempt to enlighten you, as requested, at least as much as possible from "someone who might not know what they are talking about".

----------------------------------------------
2/12/02 -- "The reason that the World Trade Center got hit is because there are a lot of people living in abject poverty out there who don’t have any hope for a better life....I think they [the 19 hijackers] were brave at the very least." AOL Time Warner Vice Chairman and CNN founder Ted Turner in February 11 remarks at Brown University, as reported by Gerald Carbone in the February 12 Providence Journal.

2/12/02 -- The Providence Journal reporting on a talk by Ted Turner called "Our Common Future," at Brown University: When asked if he’d provide public access to the vast land he owns in Montana, Turner, who advocates liberal environmental policies which dictate what landowners can do with their own land -- such as strict land use rules imposed if a species on it is declared "endangered" -- replied: "Can I live in your home with you? We believe in private property in this country."

11/30/01 -- CNSNews.com Ted Turner, founder of Cable News Network, said it was Cuban "commie dictator" Fidel Castro who inspired him to broadcast CNN into other countries around the world... Castro invited Turner to visit Cuba in 1982 after a CNN news team visited the communist nation... "We spent all night drinking and smoking cigars," Turner told a convention of cable television operators meeting in Los Angeles. ...After his 1982 meeting with Castro, Turner commented: "Fidel ain't a communist. He's a dictator just like me." Turner was criticized earlier this year for calling Fidel Castro "one hell of a guy." "Have you ever met him?" Turner asked a class at Harvard Law School. "You'd like him. He has been the leader of Cuba for 40 years. He's the most senior leader in the world, and most of the people that are still in Cuba like him."

3/7/01 -- Fox News Channel reported by Brit Hume "CNN founder Ted Turner, in town last week for a retirement party for anchor Bernard Shaw, left the staff stunned after meeting with them at the network’s Washington bureau. It was Ash Wednesday and a number of those present still had a smudge on their forehead. ‘What are you?’ asked Turner, ‘a bunch of Jesus freaks? You ought to be working for Fox.’ Turner, it may be remembered, stirred controversy a decade ago when he said Christianity is, quote, ‘for losers.’ He apologized for that, but as recently as last August criticized Christianity for being, quote, ‘very intolerant.’"

9/99 -- "I'd rather use it for the benefit of mankind rather than spend it selfishly. I'm a socialist at heart." -- CNN founder Ted Turner on what he does with his money, as quoted an a September 29 Reuters story on Turner’s speech to a Time-Warner media forum in Shanghai.

2/99 -- Washington Times, exerpts from February 16, 1999 speech in Washington, DC to the 27th annual meeting of the National Family Planning and Reproductive Health Association. Mr. Turner said the Ten Commandments are "a little out of date," and suggested, "If you're only going to have 10 rules, I don't know if [prohibiting] adultery should be one of them." Asked what he would say to Pope John Paul II, who opposes abortion and artificial contraception, Mr. Turner responded with an ethnic joke -- "Ever seen a Polish mine detector?" -- and then suggested the Pope should "get with it. Welcome to the 20th century."

2/90 -- "Marx and Lenin are still revered heroes. Never mind that communism as they conceived it didn't work. Most Soviets don't want to dump it, just improve on it." -- USA Today founder Al Neuharth in Feb. 9 column.

7/89 -- "We'll give the other bozos a chance to talk back. They look like idiots anyway." -- Ted Turner on providing pro-lifers with an opportunity to respond to his July 20 TBS documentary, Abortion for Survival. Quoted by the Associated Press, July 14.

5/89 -- in an April interview with The Washington Post's Tom Shales, corporate network chief Ted Turner admitted he influences the program content of his Cable News Network, Turner Network Television and "Superstation" WTBS. What kind of influence does he exert? On the Soviet Union, Turner told Shales, "I absolutely trust them with my life. They're not even an enemy anymore."

6/88 -- While Turner has defended his series "Portrait of the Soviet Union" as accurate, Soviet higher-ups felt that it would be too much for even the Soviet people to stomach. According to a June 1 Financial Times article, when the Soviets aired "Portrait" it was introduced with the disclaimer "that the film gave an excessively glamorous portrait of the country and failed to reflect the ferocious self-criticism currently underway."

5/88 -- MediaWatch Turner founded Better World Society in 1985 and serves as Chairman. The Board of Directors boasts several communist officials, including Georgi Arbatov, Director of the Soviet Foreign Ministry's U.S.-Canada Institute. A recent addition is Communist China's Zhou Boping, Vice Chairman of the State Family Planning Association.

3/88--From Ted Turner's "Portrait of the Soviet Union" 3 part series aired on WTBS--"The Soviet Union, draped in history, born in a bloody revolution, bound together by a dream that is still being dreamt. The dream of a socialist nation marching toward the world's first communist state." In a Washington Post TV Week article on the show, he said: "It's exactly what I hoped it would be. We're friends with them. I've been hunting and fishing with their leaders and had dinner with them in Moscow. They are very nice people. You know, if I go looking for a friend, that's what I find. You smile and they smile back. You find what you go looking for."

And then there's the whole Hanoi Jane thing...



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Post by couloir41 » Sun May 02, 2004 7:05 pm

your attempt at enlightenment is a little weak...what i hear you saying is that someone who does not meet your political/social standard is somehow tainted...if i read you correctly...most of your "research" has turner saying some thing "socialist"...take off the blinders...MSU is a socialist institution...bac tried to explain that but clearly wasted his time...our money markets are "social"...our "free market" has strong socialist/government controls...our ag policies are almost completely socialist...

this is a "free" country...people can pretty much say anything or believe anything they want as long as they don't foist their beliefs/harm another...

fact of the matter is if we analyze anyone's published statements we can surely find objectionable remarkage...no matter what your particular belief/pursuasion might be...it just makes them different...that's life...

now i believe i asked you something specific that you avoided...how have turner's actions/remarks harmed you???....or anyone for that matter.....please answer the question...you wasted a lot of time on your response...now cut the bs and answer the real question...punt guy...



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Post by couloir41 » Tue May 04, 2004 4:37 pm

come on punt guy...i'm waiting to hear specifically how turner has somehow caused you harm...don't get any weaker on me now...



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Post by SonomaCat » Tue May 04, 2004 5:17 pm

I didn't really see anything in the quotes pulled from the conservative website that scared me too much. So the guy has opinions that will keep him out of the next meeting of the Montana Freeman and won't get him elected President. He's no more "out there" than half of my friends (from all over the country, including Montana). The only difference between him and my friends is that he made millions and millions of dollars, and likes to give it away.

If he offered MSU a butt load of cash, furthering his self-described socialist tendancies towards not being selfish, then I still think that we socialists who selflessly support public education at MSU would be fools to even think twice about graciously accepting the generosity. After all, Rush Limbaugh hasn't made any overtures towards us lately.

Of course, this is all a moot point -- I think Ted already has a long list of charities that come way ahead of MSU and Bobcat Stadium, and the beneficiaries are likely much more grateful than it appears we collectively would be.



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Post by couloir41 » Tue May 04, 2004 8:35 pm

bac...i agree with what you are saying but i think it is important for everyone...including punt guy....to buttress their remarkage with imformation that supports their position...i hold myself to that standard so punt guy needs to support his position by answering the question...(loosely paraphrased...how has anything turner done had a negative impact on his life)...if he answers that in some fashion that's is good enough...if he or she doesn't then "they" are no better than the countless other loose cannons that make remarks that divide our society and lower the level of constructive discussion...so far he/she is acting like so many others...avoiding answering the direct question...typical of reactionary thought....



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Post by Bleedinbluengold » Wed May 05, 2004 2:34 pm

BAC - how is socialism and public education the same, again? I admit to not being the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I just don't get connection.

couloir - since when did public message boards require a "references" section at the end of an opnionated remark?

signed -

'just-another-idiot-loose-cannon-posting-silly-assed-opinions-on-a-public-message-board'



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Post by SonomaCat » Wed May 05, 2004 2:44 pm

Bleedin: My socialist remark was a somewhat tongue-in-cheek reference to the referenced quotes from Turner that were apparently negative because he said good things about being a socialist. Of course, on the economic theory spectrum from 100% capitalist to 100% socialist, public education certainly falls firmly on the socialist side of the equation. It's certainly not a product of unregulated capitalism -- it's "big government" all the way. Therefore, it seems perfectly suited for a socialist to feel compelled to donate money to institutions of public education. Anyone who does donate to someplace like MSU (as opposed to say, Carroll) obviously has sympathies for public education and must have just a little bit of socialist/liberal/big government ideology within them. Either that, or they are just pragmatists and like socialist/liberal/big government ideas only when it benefits them, which is basically how most of us look at things.



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Post by couloir41 » Wed May 05, 2004 6:41 pm

bbg...you left out footnotes...and bibliography...etc...all of which make for a credible exchange...in your case...for the most part...you post well thought out opinions that usually could be called "well informed"...not so for some...frankly that makes me a little crazy...sorry but i like well thought out opions...and postings...so back to the issue...post up punt guy...



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Post by Bleedinbluengold » Thu May 06, 2004 10:24 am

Just to throw a monkey wrench into your logic, BAC. Donating, say, 1MM to a public institution probably has more to do with avoiding taxes than it does being pragmatic. Also, a socialist economy has less to do with unconditionally sharing what you have, and more to do with making sure the populace are all equally impoverished. Just like a capitalist economy, in a socialist economy, the folks with 1% of the wealth get to make the rules.[1]

Thus ends my cynical statement on the subject.





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[1] Bleedingbluengold. 2004. Idiotic Diatribes From The Bully Pulpit. Simon and Schuster. 2004. pg 15.



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Post by SonomaCat » Thu May 06, 2004 10:40 am

Bleedin: Great footnotes... that's funny.

As a quick rebuttal, donating cash to charity is an awful form of tax planning -- you lose roughly 70% of your cash on the deal. So there has to be at least a significant philanthropic and/or pragmatic purpose. The tax reduction just eases the pain a little.

I agree with you as to socialism imposing equal misery as opposed to creating equal happiness/wealth/fairness. But there are true believers in the system out there who feel differently, and it amuses me when they are villified as though McCarthy was still running the show. I certainly don't fully agree with them, but there's a little bit of what they have to say that I can learn a bit from.

Sorry, I'm not adding any footnotes. I think it's just assumed that everything I post comes from the Idiotic Diatribes text.



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Post by Bleedinbluengold » Mon May 10, 2004 9:47 am

Isn't the donation accounted for differently if it's an endowment vs. a simple cash donation?



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Post by SonomaCat » Mon May 10, 2004 9:52 am

Oh, for MT taxes you might be right -- I haven't done MT taxes for awhile. If memory serves, the cash must go into the general fund to qualify for the MT credit. For federal tax purposes, there is no distinction.



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Post by velochat » Mon May 10, 2004 2:18 pm

I'd be happy to go to Turner Bobcat Stadium, as long as they keep the real grass.



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