No Happy Holidays, Part II

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:49 pm

http://www.bringthemhomenow.org/

Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas....Bring 'em On, Bring 'em Home

Yes, I understand that not everyone agrees, but my contention is that they'd be happier back in the USA with their families than fighting this senseless -- in my opinion -- war.

Support Our Troops by Bringing Them Home

Post by **SonomaCat** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:53 pm

iaafan wrote:http://www.bringthemhomenow.org/

Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas....Bring 'em On, Bring 'em Home

Yes, I understand that not everyone agrees, but my contention is that they'd be happier back in the USA with their families than fighting this senseless -- in my opinion -- war.

Support Our Troops by Bringing Them Home

We can't bring them home until we finish the job that has been started. Iraq must be stable and must have the ability to operate as a sovereign nation. To pull out now would be the worst possible answer both from a moral and from a responsibility point of view. At very least, we have to abide by the Crate and Barrel policy.

Post by **kmax** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:26 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:
iaafan wrote:http://www.bringthemhomenow.org/

Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas....Bring 'em On, Bring 'em Home

Yes, I understand that not everyone agrees, but my contention is that they'd be happier back in the USA with their families than fighting this senseless -- in my opinion -- war.

Support Our Troops by Bringing Them Home
We can't bring them home until we finish the job that has been started. Iraq must be stable and must have the ability to operate as a sovereign nation. To pull out now would be the worst possible answer both from a moral and from a responsibility point of view. At very least, we have to abide by the Crate and Barrel policy.

I may not agree with alot of the things you say BAC, but this is most definately one of the times I whole heartedly agree. I makes me so mad when people scream to get our troops out of there right now. I am sorry, I hate having our men and women die as much as anyone, and whether or not we should have gone into Iraq in the first place can be debated until you are blue in the face but the fact is we did go in there. To pull out now with Iraq in the broken down state it is in would be worse than anything we did to break it down in the first place.

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:26 pm

That's the part that sucks and what makes it a 'no-win' situation, imo. Morale is coming into play more every day, which means it will take even longer to get our men/boys and women/girls back home. But it's going to be hard to keep morale up when the troops are second-guessing whether or not they are getting the 'real' support they need. Not just magnetic car adornments.

Yes, they have to keep fighting, because we as a country were duped by our leaders into believing it was worthwhile to attack Iraq. It is heartbreaking to think of the families of those who lost loved ones or saw loved ones suffer life-altering injuries (mental and physical). We all owe them a big apology as far as I'm concerned. What a big waste this has been.

What happened today (rockets in the mess hall) kind of puts the Merry Xmas...Happy Holidays argument in the tank for a few years. Doesn't it?

Post by **SonomaCat** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:32 pm

Incidentally, the City/County of SF had a measure on the ballot in November issuing a proclamation (or some other means of emoting that is meaningless from a practical standpoint) demanding that we withdraw our troops from Iraq immediately. I'm pretty sure it passed overwhelmingly, although I can't imagine anyone actually sitting down and coming to the conclusion that it would really be a good idea or the right move at this juncture.

But, it must have given at least a few people a warm fuzzy, because somebody voted for it (I'll go on record saying that I voted against it).

Beaker · Post by **Beaker** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:35 pm

A Soldier's Christmas

'Twas the night before Christmas, he lived all alone,
In a one bedroom house made of plaster and stone.

I had come down the chimney with presents to give,
And to see just who in this home did live.

I looked all about, a strange sight I did see,
No tinsel, no presents, not even a tree.

No stocking by mantle, just boots filled with sand,
On the wall hung pictures of far distant lands.

With medals and badges, awards of all kinds,
A sober thought came through my mind.

For this house was different, it was dark and dreary,
I found the home of a soldier, once I could see clearly.

The soldier lay sleeping, silent, alone,
Curled up on the floor in this one bedroom home.

The face was so gentle, the room in such disorder,
Not how I pictured a united states soldier.

Was this the hero of whom I'd just read?
Curled up on a poncho, the floor for a bed?

I realized the families that I saw this night,
Owed their lives to these soldiers who were willing to fight.

Soon round the world, the children would play,
And grownups would celebrate a bright Christmas day.

They all enjoyed freedom each month of the year,
Because of the soldiers, like the one lying here.

I couldn't help wonder how many lay alone,
On a cold Christmas eve in a land far from home.

The very thought brought a tear to my eye,
I dropped to my knees and started to cry.

The soldier awakened and I heard a rough voice,
"Santa don't cry, this life is my choice;
I fight for freedom, I don't ask for more,
My life is my God, my country, my Corps."

The soldier rolled over and drifted to sleep,
I couldn't control it, I continued to weep.

I kept watch for hours, so silent and still
And we both shivered from the cold night's chill.

I didn't want to leave on that cold, dark, night,
This guardian of honor so willing to fight.

Then the soldier rolled over,
With a voice soft and pure,
Whispered, "Carry on Santa,
It's Christmas day, all is secure."

One look at my watch, and I knew he was right,
Merry Christmas my friend, and to all a good night.

We serve because we want to. I don't enjoy being apart from my family, but it is the life i've chosen.

BAC and kmax: Thanks.

But it's going to be hard to keep morale up when the troops are second-guessing whether or not they are getting the 'real' support they need.

Is your statement based on fact, or assumption? Ask any troops in the AOR and you'll get a different answer than you'd expect.

BozoneCat · Post by **BozoneCat** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:23 pm

Beaker~

Let me just say a few things:

A heart-felt "Thank You" for your selfless choice to serve our country.

A wish for your safety and god-speed for your return.

And a "Merry Christmas" and "God bless" for yourself and all the troops in harm's way.

We will miss all those that are not able to be here with family for the holidays, but we know they are better men and women than we are, and know that their sacrifice is working to help make this world a better place. I hope everyone is keeping these people in their prayers, especially during a time of year that undoubtedly makes it tougher to concentrate on the job at hand. I know I am.

wbtfg · Post by **wbtfg** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:31 pm

hey beaker.....do you have a brother that teaches in Missoula???

'93HonoluluCat · Post by **'93HonoluluCat** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:18 pm

BAC wrote:
Incidentally, the City/County of SF had a measure on the ballot in November issuing a proclamation (or some other means of emoting that is meaningless from a practical standpoint) demanding that we withdraw our troops from Iraq immediately. I'm pretty sure it passed overwhelmingly, although I can't imagine anyone actually sitting down and coming to the conclusion that it would really be a good idea or the right move at this juncture.

This may be a little off topic--okay, completely off topic--but I really think the mayor of SF has been doing a disservice to his city and to his political party.

We now rejoin the thread already in progress...

Post by **SonomaCat** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:42 am

'93HonoluluCat wrote:
BAC wrote:
Incidentally, the City/County of SF had a measure on the ballot in November issuing a proclamation (or some other means of emoting that is meaningless from a practical standpoint) demanding that we withdraw our troops from Iraq immediately. I'm pretty sure it passed overwhelmingly, although I can't imagine anyone actually sitting down and coming to the conclusion that it would really be a good idea or the right move at this juncture.
This may be a little off topic--okay, completely off topic--but I really think the mayor of SF has been doing a disservice to his city and to his political party.

We now rejoin the thread already in progress...

Newsom had nothing to do with that particular resolution -- it was placed on the ballot by the Board of Supervisors. The mayor is considered conservative by San Francisco standards, and is actually doing a great job bringing some much needed reforms to the city, such as tightening spending and revamping the entire way in which we deal with the homeless (money going to drug treatment and housing as opposed to monthly welfare handouts for more drugs).

He may have done a disservice to his party by bringing the gay marriage thing into the national spotlight (although Massachusetts already set the bar on that one) as he brought the topic out faster than America was obviously willing to deal with it. It gave the Republicans one more bit of fear to feed upon, which certainly did Kerry no favors.

However, as a leader of the city, he was by far the best choice we had available to us, and has actually done a great job so far. In fact, the only people around here who complain about him seem to do so only because he is rich, and that in and of itself is the mark of an evil person to some in this area. Like I said -- he's considered (and criticized like) a conservative by local standards.

Heck, even Bush told Newsom that he was proud of him when they met in person last fall.

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:29 am

Beaker, my statement should have read "some troops", not just "troops." Poor choice of words on my part.

My statement is based on military personnel that I know and have spoken to and my own experiences. Not all of those I know are concerned about support and how it relates to morale. Most are gung-ho as all get-out. The ones who are second-guessing I sum up this way: They can't figure out how they can 'truly' be supported in an effort that has turned out to be unjustified. Yes, they feel supported in that everyone wants their mission to be a success and for a safe return, but, no, they don't feel certain that they are supported as, say, the WWII troops.

My assumption is that it is human nature to support things that represent us and, for some, if something doesn't look quite right support it with disclaimers, caveats, and excuses. I'm sure we can all think of times when we've done this.

I think one of the poster's logic is that we've gotten ourselves into this, so now we have to stay the course or the negative impacts of pulling out will be greater than any negatives of not following through. If my thinking is correct, I can't say I disagree. However, at the same time, I'd like to see efforts being made toward a peaceful resolution that will bring our men and women home with their heads held high. I realize that is a longshot, but the effort in that regard is definitely a noble one and one that I think a good portion of the troops would appreciate and see as 'support' from the folks back home.

Post by **kmax** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:44 am

iaafan wrote:I think one of the poster's logic is that we've gotten ourselves into this, so now we have to stay the course or the negative impacts of pulling out will be greater than any negatives of not following through. If my thinking is correct, I can't say I disagree. However, at the same time, I'd like to see efforts being made toward a peaceful resolution that will bring our men and women home with their heads held high. I realize that is a longshot, but the effort in that regard is definitely a noble one and one that I think a good portion of the troops would appreciate and see as 'support' from the folks back home.

It is a very noble goal to wish for a peaceful resolution to this, and I have very little doubt that almost everyone would love to see that as well. That said, if you have any idea of a way to bring about a peaceful resolution in a country that has been taken near the brink of civil war, I am pretty sure there would be a Nobel Peace Prize in it for you. All kidding aside, unfortunately there is just too much instability in that region right now for any realistic hope of a peaceful conclusion.

I also add my thanks to Beaker, and all of the men and women that serve our country to protect our freedoms. As Bozone said, you are all stronger than I and have done more for this country than I ever will. My deepest thanks and prayers go out to all of you.

'93HonoluluCat · Post by **'93HonoluluCat** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:34 pm

They can't figure out how they can 'truly' be supported in an effort that has turned out to be unjustified.

Not this again...we cussed and discussed this on another thread: here.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:54 pm

iaafan wrote:Beaker, my statement should have read "some troops", not just "troops." Poor choice of words on my part.

My statement is based on military personnel that I know and have spoken to and my own experiences. Not all of those I know are concerned about support and how it relates to morale. Most are gung-ho as all get-out. The ones who are second-guessing I sum up this way: They can't figure out how they can 'truly' be supported in an effort that has turned out to be unjustified. Yes, they feel supported in that everyone wants their mission to be a success and for a safe return, but, no, they don't feel certain that they are supported as, say, the WWII troops.

My assumption is that it is human nature to support things that represent us and, for some, if something doesn't look quite right support it with disclaimers, caveats, and excuses. I'm sure we can all think of times when we've done this.

I think one of the poster's logic is that we've gotten ourselves into this, so now we have to stay the course or the negative impacts of pulling out will be greater than any negatives of not following through. If my thinking is correct, I can't say I disagree. However, at the same time, I'd like to see efforts being made toward a peaceful resolution that will bring our men and women home with their heads held high. I realize that is a longshot, but the effort in that regard is definitely a noble one and one that I think a good portion of the troops would appreciate and see as 'support' from the folks back home.

While many of your posts send me running for the hills (when you are really fired up), this was really an excellent, thoughtful post that shows that you have taken the time to look at this thing from several points of view, which seems to be the best way to come to one's own conclusion.

velochat · Post by **velochat** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:16 pm

Are there enough neo-con think tankers and blustery radio rush-ites o'reilly spinsters to take the place of those poor souls trapped in stop loss?

Beaker · Post by **Beaker** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:32 pm

hey beaker.....do you have a brother that teaches in Missoula???

Nope.

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:41 pm

There's a saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

But I once heard someone say, "If you pretend it ain't broke, it'll never get fixed."

Keep your slippers on BAC, and I'm sure everyone else. My approach is more trail-and-error. I'm not always sold on what I say myself, but I like to throw things out there to see where others take it, because it may just lead to something positive and unique in thought, if not in action.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 3:34 pm

iaafan wrote:There's a saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

But I once heard someone say, "If you pretend it ain't broke, it'll never get fixed."

Keep your slippers on BAC, and I'm sure everyone else. My approach is more trail-and-error. I'm not always sold on what I say myself, but I like to throw things out there to see where others take it, because it may just lead to something positive and unique in thought, if not in action.

I know what you mean. There's no better way to test out an idea or theory than to throw it out to discussion. If it gets torn to shreds with valid counterarguments, it is probably a good one to ditch, but if it holds up against the scrutiny, then it could be upgraded to a closely held belief. In the process, some good discussion may be created either way, and everybody learns a little bit more.

I think a lot/most of us do about the same thing in here. After all, we can't all be right on our first impression all of the time. If we were, we'd all have really cool internationally recognized titles of some sort by now.

iaafan · Post by **iaafan** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 3:41 pm

BAC: No one will ever accuse you of not being tactful and it's ruining all my fun. "I'm melting, I'm melting...."

No Happy Holidays, Part II

No Happy Holidays, Part II

Re: No Happy Holidays, Part II

Re: No Happy Holidays, Part II