Catholic ? You will have to settle for Monday Night Footbal

[G.W.Bush]

Damn BAC 1st you piss off all the religious folks over on Egriz now you are doing it here. You are going to give us atheists a bad name.

Much worse than Stalin and Hitler did!

Umm, yeah. Except that Hitler was a Christian.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

To date ... nobody has started a war in the name of atheism. The number of wars fought in the name of religions is almost countless ... including our current little debacle with Islamic terrorism.

I'm reading a really interesting book right now that I am convinced (if I were King) would be required reading for everyone in the world. Not because I think it is necessarily the "right" or "only" answer, but merely because it provides insights that are necessary for anybody to be able to come to anything resembling an informed opinion about the role of religion in the world.

It is called "The End of Faith: Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason" by Sam Harris. It spends a little time discussing the role of religion as the genesis of armed conflicts, and is quite interesting.

First off, the actions taken by Hitler were not those of a Christian. Anyone can claim to whatever they would like, but it does not make it so. I can claim to be your father BAC, but it may or may not be true.

Here are some quotes from Adolph himself suggesting that he was not a Christian:

Quotes Establishing Hitler's Non-Christianity
Hitler may in public have claimed to be doing the will of God, but records of his private conversations show otherwise. Many of these were recorded by his secretary and published in a book called Hitler's Table Talk (Adolf Hitler, London, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 1953).
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

21st October, 1941, midday

"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' <who he asserts many times was never a Jew> doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the
instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... <here insults people who believe
transubstantiation>....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)

14th December, 1941, midday

"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism,
under a tinsel of metaphysics." (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner

"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday

"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its demise>." (p 278)

[SonomaCat]

I am sure Hitler's actions were not what most Christians would attribute as "Christian behavior" any more than you attribtuting it to the behavior of an atheist.

Now that you've gotten that point ... it is definitely true to say that Hitler's believe system was influenced by his exposure to church doctrine. Granted, he took the worst of it and ran with it, and the results were obviously very bad.

But perhaps now you understand how ridiculous it was for you to apply his "atheism" to his resulting behavior. You can't have it both ways.

[SonomaCat]

BAC- you need to do your research on the historicity of Hitler. Hitler was no more Christian than you are. Hitler's "christian" label was a cover for his influence in a Lutheran nation. He lived Hume not Jesus.

Oh ... so you're saying HE wasn't a Christian, but rather that he just pretended to be a Christian to influence an entire nation to try to eliminate another religious group. So apparently the message of Christianity worked quite well in that instance to encourage violence in the name of religion, right? Germany was certainly a Christian nation, as certainly was Italy, yet both were willing to follow this alleged pretender down the path and to commit the acts that they did.

And to get back to the main point I was making, in refutation of GWB's atheist comment, Hitler certainly was not using a message of atheism to bring about this murderous regime, was he?

I don't care whether he had Jesus in his heart or not -- that means different things to different people, and many that do claim to have that live their lives in a way that suggests otherwise. Hitler may or may not have believed he was a holy guy ... either way, he was a very, very bad man whose ability to decipher right from wrong was clearly flawed. He may have thought he had Jesus' direct phone number for all I know, but we can all agree that he didn't act in a way that any of us would attach to any ideology we ascribe to.

But if nothing else, he certainly did use Christianity as a tool in bringing about his murderous campaign ... and he certainly never used atheism in a similar manner.

[briannell]

hilter's mom was a Jew, therefore by "birth right" adolf Hitler was Jewish.

just stirring the pot a little. I'm with kitty, i'll let you guys duke this one out.

[SonomaCat]

The number of wars fought in the name of religions is almost countless

You name those that have, I'll name those that haven't and see who's list is longer. Not saying who would win I just think that statement though very common is greatly exaggerated.

Now is a time I wish I could scan stuff onto this board. From the book I referenced (typing by hand ... so expect typos):

"Our world is fast succumbing to the activities of men and women who would stake the future of our species on beliefs that should not survive an elementary education. That so many of us are still dying on account of ancient myths is as bewildering as it is horrible, and our own attachment to these myths, whether moderate or extreme, has kept us silent in the face of developments that could ultimately destroy us. Indeed, religion is as much a living spring of violence today as it was at any time in the past. The current conflicts in Palestine (Jews v. Muslims), the Balkans (Orhodox Serbians v. Catholic Croations; Orthodox Serbians v. Bosnian and Albanian Muslims), Northern Ireland (Protestants v. Catholics), Kashmir (Muslims v. Hindus), Sudan (Muslims v. Christians and animists), Nigeria (Muslims v. Christians), Ethiopia and Eritrea (Muslim v. Christians), Sri Lanka (Sinhalese Buddhists v. Tamil Hinuds), Indonesia (Muslims v. Timorsese Christians), and the Causcasus (Orthodox Russians v. Chechen Muslims; Muslim Azerbaijanis v. Catholic and Orthodox Armenians) are merely a few cases in point."

[G.W.Bush]

I am sure Hitler's actions were not what most Christians would attribute as "Christian behavior" any more than you attribtuting it to the behavior of an atheist.

Now that you've gotten that point ... it is definitely true to say that Hitler's believe system was influenced by his exposure to church doctrine. Granted, he took the worst of it and ran with it, and the results were obviously very bad.

But perhaps now you understand how ridiculous it was for you to apply his "atheism" to his resulting behavior. You can't have it both ways.

Honestly, your posts are getting a little hard to follow. Are you saying now that Hitler was or was not a Christian? I don't even know where to go with your recent posts, they make little sense. You are trying to take two, three four different points of view. I guess that makes it easier to win an argument.

I believe, like many historians, that Hitler was trying to exterminate religion as a whole (starting with the Jews and the Jehovah Witnesses). That sure seems like the work of an Atheist.

[SonomaCat]

And far reasonable for all to swallow than the arrogance of atheism.

And if atheism is "arrogant," certainly you would agree that devout religious belief is also arrogant. Both are equally culpable of dismissing all opposing evidence in favor of their own belief system.

The only difference is that atheism is built precisely upon the recognition that the opposing viewpoints have no evidence to support their assertions, and are borne by definition out of faith. For those who don't share that faith, that provides them with zero positive evidence. While those who are devout can assert that it is impossible to prove a negative, and use that as evidence that they are, in fact, right in suggesting that their faith is correct.

If you assert one is arrogant, you have to admit that both are arrogant.

[SonomaCat]

I believe, like many historians, that Hitler was trying to exterminate religion as a whole (starting with the Jews and the Jehovah Witnesses). That sure seems like the work of an Atheist.

You believe that was the work of an atheist because you have a prejudiced view of atheists that doesn't correlate with reality. In fact ... you are making my point for me quite well. You are so influenced by your prejudicial religious beliefs that you are willing to believe that people that don't share your beliefs have an inferior sense of right and wrong, and would be more likely to do something like Hitler than someone who shares your religious beliefs. You get enough people who think this way about people of other faiths or people of no faith together, and you get wars caused by religion.

And what of the entire country of Germany, GWB. Are you waving a magic wand and declaring that they were all atheists as well? And what of Italy? Were they all atheists?

And, had you done your reading on Catholic history, you would already know that destroying Jews was an idea of Catholic ideology (read about the Inquisition as a good starting point) ... not one borne of atheistic design. Why would an atheist want to kill Jews, but not Christians? Doesn't make much sense, does it? Only a religious person would target another specific religious group as opposed to attacking all religious people, right?

[G.W.Bush]

You believe that was the work of an atheist because you have a prejudiced view of atheists that doesn't correlate with reality. In fact ... you are making my point for me quite well. You are so influenced by your prejudicial religious beliefs that you are willing to believe that people that don't share your beliefs have an inferior sense of right and wrong, and would be more likely to do something like Hitler than someone who shares your religious beliefs. You get enough people who think this way about people of other faiths or people of no faith together, and you get wars caused by religion.

I am saying that Hitler's actions were more likely those of an Atheist than a true Christian. You were the one trying to convince us that Hitler was a Christian in one of your earlier posts.

And what our the entire country of Germany, GWB. Are you waving a magic wand and declaring that they were all atheists as well? And what of Italy? Were they all atheists?

By your reasoning everyone in the United States must agree on the policy set forth by those elected in Washington D.C.

[SonomaCat]

You believe that was the work of an atheist because you have a prejudiced view of atheists that doesn't correlate with reality. In fact ... you are making my point for me quite well. You are so influenced by your prejudicial religious beliefs that you are willing to believe that people that don't share your beliefs have an inferior sense of right and wrong, and would be more likely to do something like Hitler than someone who shares your religious beliefs. You get enough people who think this way about people of other faiths or people of no faith together, and you get wars caused by religion.

I am saying that Hitler's actions were more likely those of an Atheist than a true Christian. You were the one trying to convince us that Hitler was a Christian in one of your earlier posts.

And what our the entire country of Germany, GWB. Are you waving a magic wand and declaring that they were all atheists as well? And what of Italy? Were they all atheists?

By your reasoning everyone in the United States must agree on the policy set forth by those elected in Washington D.C.

You said he was an atheist. I presented a website that proves that he held himself out to the public as a Christian. And if he marketed his ideas as a Christian, and people rallied behind him in Germany and committed the murder he ordered with their understanding of his "Christianity," then that tells me that "ATHEISM" had absolutely nothing to do with Hitler's acts.

I love how conveniently people dismiss all murderous acts committed by self-described Christians as not being the act of a "true Christian." But at the same time, you so ignorantly assert that his acts were representative of atheism. Well, I guess he wasn't a "true atheist" either, because true atheists don't kill people of only one religion and spare the other religions. They save that kind of thing for religious people.

Gratuitous emoticon:

[info197176]

By your reasoning everyone in the United States must agree on the policy set forth by those elected in Washington D.C. [/quote]



...that's your ultimate fantasy George...

[Hell's Bells]

You believe that was the work of an atheist because you have a prejudiced view of atheists that doesn't correlate with reality. In fact ... you are making my point for me quite well. You are so influenced by your prejudicial religious beliefs that you are willing to believe that people that don't share your beliefs have an inferior sense of right and wrong, and would be more likely to do something like Hitler than someone who shares your religious beliefs. You get enough people who think this way about people of other faiths or people of no faith together, and you get wars caused by religion.

I am saying that Hitler's actions were more likely those of an Atheist than a true Christian. You were the one trying to convince us that Hitler was a Christian in one of your earlier posts.

And what our the entire country of Germany, GWB. Are you waving a magic wand and declaring that they were all atheists as well? And what of Italy? Were they all atheists?

By your reasoning everyone in the United States must agree on the policy set forth by those elected in Washington D.C.

bac. if hitler was a christain why did he then make "people of the book" ie priests build the insenerators at ashwitz (sp)

[Hell's Bells]

hilter's mom was a Jew, therefore by "birth right" adolf Hitler was Jewish.

just stirring the pot a little. I'm with kitty, i'll let you guys duke this one out.

i heard that somewhere..so this begs the question

was hitler the last death associated with the holicost?

[SonomaCat]

Hell's: He persecuted the Priests who realized what he was doing was wrong and spoke out against him ... but he treated the Priests who helped him very, very well. He never persecuted a Christian based on their religion -- only when they spoke out against him.

[Hell's Bells]

Hell's: He persecuted the Priests who realized what he was doing was wrong and spoke out against him ... but he treated the Priests who helped him very, very well. He never persecuted a Christian based on their religion -- only when they spoke out against him.

actually what you stated makes sence

if i recall correctly hitler made a psudo-christanity for germans, those who were true christains were persucited

[SonomaCat]

And as we all know, anti-Semitism was not a concept that Hitler introduced to Christian Germany. It was there long before he came along, and the fact that he preached religious hatred towards Jews simply played into that sentiment.

That could explain why Hitler could have done what he did despite being part Jew himself -- he may have been grandstanding anti-Semitism for popularity purposes among the Christian German population.

[SonomaCat]

Hell's: He persecuted the Priests who realized what he was doing was wrong and spoke out against him ... but he treated the Priests who helped him very, very well. He never persecuted a Christian based on their religion -- only when they spoke out against him.

actually what you stated makes sence

if i recall correctly hitler made a psudo-christanity for germans, those who were true christains were persucited

If when you say "true Christians," you are speaking to the ones who knew that what he was doing was wrong, then I agree. Again, though, I would suggest the use of that term is often a term of convenience for revisionist purposes. Many/most Nazis probably considered themselves as "true" of a Christian as had ever set foot on earth. It's all a matter of interpretation ... although I know you and I are in agreement in terms of what a "true Christian" is in the context of them being good people.

[Hello Kitty]

"Our world is fast succumbing to the activities of men and women who would stake the future of our species on beliefs that should not survive an elementary education. That so many of us are still dying on account of ancient myths is as bewildering as it is horrible, and our own attachment to these myths, whether moderate or extreme, has kept us silent in the face of developments that could ultimately destroy us. Indeed, religion is as much a living spring of violence today as it was at any time in the past.

Care to elaborate on the "beliefs that should not survive an elementary education" part?

[SonomaCat]

And just for something to chew on, especially in reference to GWB's comments, are the acts of the 9/11 bombers and all of the terrorists around the world the acts of:

a) Religious people

b) Atheists

With that in mind, it doesn't exactly seem out of the question that somebody could be religious and do what Hitler did, does it?

[info197176]

"I'll take "A." for 200 dollars Alex."