Montana's Top Students Choose MSU:

[seataccat]

I don't think comparing research dollars is a great proxy for comparing our schools' graduate programs.

I actually think it's a pretty good way, quite objective.

The programs in which MSU excels (i.e., engineering and the sciences) will always cause it to receive more research dollars than UM. That does not mean there aren't areas in which UM is superior.

Can't argue with that, I already agreed in the previous post.

also national merit scholars

MSU 14 ranked 109
UM 7 ranked 159

You realize national merit scholars are undergrads, right?

I didn't know that. I thought there had to be graduate national merit scholars since the article was concerning research which is generally done at the graduate level.

[Grizlaw]

Many of those students received their undergrad degree at MSU...specifically the MBA, Law, Pharm, and PT students.

Two points:

1. Your phrasing of this point (that "many" such students came from MSU) makes it sound suspiciously as if the statement is of the "pulled-out-of-the-@ss" variety. Let's be a little more specific -- are you suggesting that a majority of the students in these programs are from MSU? Or that more are from MSU than UM? If that's what you're claiming, do you actually have statistics to back it up, or is it (as I suspect), a completely made-up statistic?

Anecdotal evidence is never the best kind, but based on my own knowledge from my time at UM, what you're claiming is not supported by the facts. The law school at UM has a lot of students from both schools (probably more from UM than MSU in most years, though). Everyone I know who has ever received an MBA from UM was a UM undergrad (though to be fair, I agree with BAC's assessment of the value of an MBA from pretty much any school outside the top 10 nationally). UM offers an undergraduate degree in Pharmacy in addition to the graduate degrees, and I believe most of UM's graduate pharmacy students come from the undergrad program (though if you have different information, please feel free to prove me wrong).

I don't know anything about the PT program; the only person I know who went there went to Notre Dame for undergrad.

2. All of that aside -- regardless of where the students in these programs completed their undergraduate work, seatac and SL were comparing graduate programs. What relevance does where the students in UM's grad programs what to undergrad have in that discussion?

You realize that the genesis of this thread was about top high school students choosing their path for undergraduate education, right?

So his point that MSU has twice as many NM Scholars as UM provides further support to the original article from the Missoulain.

But the point of his post (as indicated by the very first sentence) was to try to refute SL's comment about UM's graduate programs being, overall, superior to MSU's. I thus naturally assumed that his purpose in pointing out that MSU has more national merit scholars was to support his argument (and based on his subsequent response, I appear to have been correct in that assumption).

[Sportin' Life]

I don't think comparing research dollars is a great proxy for comparing our schools' graduate programs.

I actually think it's a pretty good way, quite objective.

I would guess that would lead to the conclusion that almost any chemical engineering research must be part of a better program than, say, any mathematics or law research.


BTW. nice catch wtg.

[Grizlaw]

I don't think comparing research dollars is a great proxy for comparing our schools' graduate programs.

I actually think it's a pretty good way, quite objective.

Of course it's objective, and it does make sense for comparing programs in research-intensive areas. But as I explained earlier, UM's best programs do not fall under that category. Our top-10 graduate creative writing program is never going to bring in research dollars (as MSU's science programs do), but that doesn't mean it isn't far superior to MSU's creative writing program (if MSU even has such a program).

[wbtfg]

Clearly this thread has been hijacked by Grizlaw, SeaTac, and Sportin' Life to talk about Grad programs.

I'm not sure how that relates to initial article about the top high school students who choose to attend school in-state are choosing MSU, but if someone wants to post an article comparing MSU vs UM graduate programs, I'd be happy to comment.

[Grizlaw]

Clearly this thread has been hijacked by Grizlaw, SeaTac, and Sportin' Life to talk about Grad programs.

Oh go f*ck yourself. I didn't hijack anything; all I did was respond to points that were made by others.

This thread is about academic programs at our respective schools. I apologize that it strayed slightly from the pre-ordained path that you had in mind for it; in the future, I will be sure to carefully consider what effect my posting will have on your delicate sensitivities before commenting on any of your threads.

[kmax]

Ahhhh, must be almost football season. Everybody is getting touchy over stupid stuff like thread topics.

8 days 21 hours 9 minutes 30 seconds...
8 days 21 hours 9 minutes 29 seconds...
8 days 21 hours 9 minutes 28 seconds...
8 days 21 hours 9 minutes 27 seconds...

[seataccat]

I don't think comparing research dollars is a great proxy for comparing our schools' graduate programs.

I actually think it's a pretty good way, quite objective.

Of course it's objective, and it does make sense for comparing programs in research-intensive areas. But as I explained earlier, UM's best programs do not fall under that category. Our top-10 graduate creative writing program is never going to bring in research dollars (as MSU's science programs do), but that doesn't mean it isn't far superior to MSU's creative writing program (if MSU even has such a program).

You are right and I agree, there are many other ways to compare graduate programs. Research money and successful job placement after graduation are practical but many other variables must come into play when it comes to a good education and value to the student. I am weak in arts, humanities, creative writing and public speaking and those things certainly add huge value to our society... Both universities certainly have their place.

Oh and I do have a very good friend that I went to engineering school with at MSU that later received an MBA in Missoula so not everyone comes from undergraduate UM to their masters program. He is now back to being a stress engineer in the aerospace field.

[grizgirl]

Many of those students received their undergrad degree at MSU...specifically the MBA, Law, Pharm, and PT students.

Two points:

1. Your phrasing of this point (that "many" such students came from MSU) makes it sound suspiciously as if the statement is of the "pulled-out-of-the-@ss" variety. Let's be a little more specific -- are you suggesting that a majority of the students in these programs are from MSU? Or that more are from MSU than UM? If that's what you're claiming, do you actually have statistics to back it up, or is it (as I suspect), a completely made-up statistic?

Anecdotal evidence is never the best kind, but based on my own knowledge from my time at UM, what you're claiming is not supported by the facts. The law school at UM has a lot of students from both schools (probably more from UM than MSU in most years, though). Everyone I know who has ever received an MBA from UM was a UM undergrad (though to be fair, I agree with BAC's assessment of the value of an MBA from pretty much any school outside the top 10 nationally). UM offers an undergraduate degree in Pharmacy in addition to the graduate degrees, and I believe most of UM's graduate pharmacy students come from the undergrad program (though if you have different information, please feel free to prove me wrong).

I don't know anything about the PT program; the only person I know who went there went to Notre Dame for undergrad.

2. All of that aside -- regardless of where the students in these programs completed their undergraduate work, seatac and SL were comparing graduate programs. What relevance does where the students in UM's grad programs what to undergrad have in that discussion?

You realize that the genesis of this thread was about top high school students choosing their path for undergraduate education, right?

So his point that MSU has twice as many NM Scholars as UM provides further support to the original article from the Missoulain.

But the point of his post (as indicated by the very first sentence) was to try to refute SL's comment about UM's graduate programs being, overall, superior to MSU's. I thus naturally assumed that his purpose in pointing out that MSU has more national merit scholars was to support his argument (and based on his subsequent response, I appear to have been correct in that assumption).

Wow, you really are a lawyer. You going to accuse someone of defining "many" as being "most"? And then claim that they are pulling things out of their a$$ based on your definition? That's stuff.

I agree there are students from MSU attending grad school at UM and that many, which doesn't have to be most or even 1/4th, are from MSU. Just listening to others talk about how their sibling or son/daughter is attending MSU, but is applying to UM law school or physical therapy, etc. grad schools, although anecdotal, is sufficient for me to believe that there are many (in my definition) MSU students attending UM grad schools and that it is a common thing. Probably many more are attending grad schools elsewhere.

[grizgirl]

Oh go f*ck yourself.

Yep, you're a lawyer.

[Common Cat]

****** talking about drinking the koolaid. Non the less I hate all of the MSU chest pounding. I know they did away with Tiers and MSU is like 116 and U of M is like 121. My point being you're not Stanford and never will be, let it go. Just a couple of little old state schools that teach kids stop acting like your 80K salary from MSU in any way compares. The missed point on that article is the awesome amount of brain drain going on in Montana. A point that several posters on this site prove on a daily basis.

So being proud of your school's academics is drinking koolaid, pounding your chest, or whatever drivel you are spewing? But doing the exact same thing about your football program is perfectly okay?

Sheesh, you are touchy today. Touchier than normal. MSU is proud of our academics. I too find it funny you are rousing up such a bitch-storm for a school I've heard many UMers refer to as the Harvard of the West...

People actually refer to UM as the "Harvard of the West"? This is hilarious!!!!

[MashTun]

****** talking about drinking the koolaid. Non the less I hate all of the MSU chest pounding. I know they did away with Tiers and MSU is like 116 and U of M is like 121. My point being you're not Stanford and never will be, let it go. Just a couple of little old state schools that teach kids stop acting like your 80K salary from MSU in any way compares. The missed point on that article is the awesome amount of brain drain going on in Montana. A point that several posters on this site prove on a daily basis.

So being proud of your school's academics is drinking koolaid, pounding your chest, or whatever drivel you are spewing? But doing the exact same thing about your football program is perfectly okay?

Sheesh, you are touchy today. Touchier than normal. MSU is proud of our academics. I too find it funny you are rousing up such a bitch-storm for a school I've heard many UMers refer to as the Harvard of the West...

People actually refer to UM as the "Harvard of the West"? This is hilarious!!!!

Ok I have lived in MT most of my life and I have NEVER heard dUMb called the "Harvard of the West". The "Cocktail College" yes, Harvard

I have heard the University of Washington called "Harvard of the West". There I can believe it. It's a difficult school to get into and also has a snobby air about it, as I understand Harvard to have(as opposed to Yale)

[kmax]

****** talking about drinking the koolaid. Non the less I hate all of the MSU chest pounding. I know they did away with Tiers and MSU is like 116 and U of M is like 121. My point being you're not Stanford and never will be, let it go. Just a couple of little old state schools that teach kids stop acting like your 80K salary from MSU in any way compares. The missed point on that article is the awesome amount of brain drain going on in Montana. A point that several posters on this site prove on a daily basis.

So being proud of your school's academics is drinking koolaid, pounding your chest, or whatever drivel you are spewing? But doing the exact same thing about your football program is perfectly okay?

Sheesh, you are touchy today. Touchier than normal. MSU is proud of our academics. I too find it funny you are rousing up such a bitch-storm for a school I've heard many UMers refer to as the Harvard of the West...

People actually refer to UM as the "Harvard of the West"? This is hilarious!!!!

As someone mentioned earlier, prominently displayed quote on http://umt.edu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I don't know how many UM alums would say this, but that magazine did and UM is blatantly using that endorsement on their homepage.

[MashTun]

****** talking about drinking the koolaid. Non the less I hate all of the MSU chest pounding. I know they did away with Tiers and MSU is like 116 and U of M is like 121. My point being you're not Stanford and never will be, let it go. Just a couple of little old state schools that teach kids stop acting like your 80K salary from MSU in any way compares. The missed point on that article is the awesome amount of brain drain going on in Montana. A point that several posters on this site prove on a daily basis.

So being proud of your school's academics is drinking koolaid, pounding your chest, or whatever drivel you are spewing? But doing the exact same thing about your football program is perfectly okay?

Sheesh, you are touchy today. Touchier than normal. MSU is proud of our academics. I too find it funny you are rousing up such a bitch-storm for a school I've heard many UMers refer to as the Harvard of the West...

People actually refer to UM as the "Harvard of the West"? This is hilarious!!!!

As someone mentioned earlier, prominently displayed quote on http://umt.edu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I don't know how many UM alums would say this, but that magazine did and UM is blatantly using that endorsement on their homepage.

SKI magazine? Now there is an authority on academic excellence.

[rtb]

SKI magazine? Now there is an authority on academic excellence.

They aren't even authoritative on the ski industry!!

[grizgirl]

Yeah, we got the best red-bricked architecture and expansive lawns of any school...prestigious faculty? They must be borrowing GrizFlaw's book o' definitions.

[whitetrashgriz]

BTW. nice catch wtg.

well, when you have nothing constructive to add to a conversation you might as well find a typo at someones expense...

[Grizlaw]

Wow, you really are a lawyer. You going to accuse someone of defining "many" as being "most"? And then claim that they are pulling things out of their a$$ based on your definition? That's stuff.

I wasn't "accusing" him of defining "many" in any particular way; I was just asking him to clarify what he meant. Claiming that there are "many" such students doesn't mean anything. If one is comparing the two schools, then it would make some sense to compare the number of students who came from one school vs. the other (which is why I asked whether that was what he meant), but simply saying that there are "many" students from MSU (without defining "many," or comparing to the number from UM) doesn't seem to advance the point he appeared to be trying to make.

Finally, the reason I accused him of pulling the statement out of his @ss is because, frankly, I don't think there are publicly-available statistics one way or the other, and I suspect that his statement was based purely on his own anecdotal knowledge...which is fine, but I thought it should be acknowledged. Given that his only response to my post was to accuse me of hijacking his thread, I can only assume I was right.

[Grizlaw]

They must be borrowing GrizFlaw's book o' definitions.

You know...if you devoted as much power from that cute little brain of yours to reading and understanding my posts as you did to coming up with this deliciously clever play on my screen name, then I probably wouldn't have had to go back and explain my point to you.

Just a thought...

[Brad_CAT]

I heard that if you drive through Missoula slow enough you get a degree? But seriously all joking aside who cares really. We all have pride in our school. The fact is, MSU Architecture Undergrad and Grad program is better than the non-existant Architecture program at UM, just like UM's Law program is better than MSU's non-existant Law program. This is ridiculous that it is even being argued.

Let the numbers make the noise, out of 200 Presidential Scholarship students out of high school, 122 chose MSU while 57 chose UM. We should all be rejoicing. If this trend continues or disparity grows even larger (meaning even more bright students go to MSU than UM) the future is bright for us and Montana. Can you imagine the state of Montana if majority of these students were graduating from UM over the next 20 years? God help us. Montana doesnt need anymore Pretentious UM fans, let alone Lawyers. Again all joking aside. But seriously, "Some of UM's top students excel in dance, art, and creative writing," what alumni/parent wouldn't be proud?