10 dead in Boulder, Colo. shooting

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Cataholic
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Re: 10 dead in Boulder, Colo. shooting

Post by Cataholic » Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:33 am

John Kennedy had a couple interesting quotes (paraphrasing from memory):

“We don’t need gun control. We need more idiot control”.

“A black guy shoots an officer, and it is the guns fault. A cop shoots a black guy, and it is the cops fault”.



iaafan
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Re: 10 dead in Boulder, Colo. shooting

Post by iaafan » Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:44 am

ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:31 am
We'll just keep making guns the number one issue when these shootings happen and never discuss what makes the shooter reach their breaking point. Shootings will keep happening, and guns will keep being the talking point.

It's like spending billions of dollars in the prison system while ignoring education issues and then acting shocked when poorly educated kids with no shot in life end up in prison.

Man we do things backwards in this country sometimes.
Fair enough, guns are definitely the main talking point on the left. I know you're not trying to politicize the discussion, but are mental health and education the talking point on the right? Seems like guns are also the main talking point on the right. As in, more guns make things safer and guns don't kill people anymore than spoons make people fat. So, for the most part, it's about guns.

Anyway, I like any discussion or idea to make things better. Please explain further how you think this will work. Based on what you said, I'm envisioning a system where we identify anyone with a certain type of behavior issue and then not allow them to have a gun. Am I along the right path? I have some thoughts on where that goes after that, but I don't want to go into it until I hear back from you.



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Re: 10 dead in Boulder, Colo. shooting

Post by ilovethecats » Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:15 am

iaafan wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:44 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:31 am
We'll just keep making guns the number one issue when these shootings happen and never discuss what makes the shooter reach their breaking point. Shootings will keep happening, and guns will keep being the talking point.

It's like spending billions of dollars in the prison system while ignoring education issues and then acting shocked when poorly educated kids with no shot in life end up in prison.

Man we do things backwards in this country sometimes.
Fair enough, guns are definitely the main talking point on the left. I know you're not trying to politicize the discussion, but are mental health and education the talking point on the right? Seems like guns are also the main talking point on the right. As in, more guns make things safer and guns don't kill people anymore than spoons make people fat. So, for the most part, it's about guns.

Anyway, I like any discussion or idea to make things better. Please explain further how you think this will work. Based on what you said, I'm envisioning a system where we identify anyone with a certain type of behavior issue and then not allow them to have a gun. Am I along the right path? I have some thoughts on where that goes after that, but I don't want to go into it until I hear back from you.
Yep, no politicizing from me. My point is this is like clockwork. Mass shooting. Immediate talk about gun bans. Politicians discuss banning of guns. Gun owners stock up on guns. I'm sure the data is out there but I can almost ensure that gun and ammunition sales will go up this week and the coming weeks.

In regards to your second paragraph, I like the part of identifying people with certain types of behavior. I think we can do a better job of this and it starts with education and funding programs that specialize in mental health. And in this day and age, as I mentioned yesterday, I think we need to take a closer look at bullying in general. Again, I think with proper funding we could try and nip these issues in the bud before they are allowed to evolve and escalate to violence.

I wouldn't suggest taking away peoples guns. Though I do agree that we could have better systems to ensure the guns are primarily in the hands of responsible gun owners. Which my personal belief is a vast majority of gun owners. That said, I also believe if a person wants a gun, a person can get a gun. If a person wants drugs, they can get drugs. If a person wants to rape or murder someone, they will rape and murder someone.

I guess that was my main point. The issue always becomes guns, gun laws, banning of guns, etc. The discussion never turns to the person, their mental health, their education, (unless they were highly intelligent and it becomes a talking point) social status or anything that may have molded them into what they became. It's how I know I'll never be a mass murderer, despite owning guns. Or how I know some of my friends that basically have an arsenal in their homes will also never be mass murderers.

I have far from the answers and have said as much. But every time these terrible tragedies occur I automatically cringe because I know the hot topic will be banning of guns, and the discussion never evolves into education and mental health. Which is why I don't see an end in sight for these terrible mass shootings, and how I know when the next one happens we'll be right back where we are today.



iaafan
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Re: 10 dead in Boulder, Colo. shooting

Post by iaafan » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:24 pm

ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:15 am
iaafan wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:44 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:31 am
We'll just keep making guns the number one issue when these shootings happen and never discuss what makes the shooter reach their breaking point. Shootings will keep happening, and guns will keep being the talking point.

It's like spending billions of dollars in the prison system while ignoring education issues and then acting shocked when poorly educated kids with no shot in life end up in prison.

Man we do things backwards in this country sometimes.
Fair enough, guns are definitely the main talking point on the left. I know you're not trying to politicize the discussion, but are mental health and education the talking point on the right? Seems like guns are also the main talking point on the right. As in, more guns make things safer and guns don't kill people anymore than spoons make people fat. So, for the most part, it's about guns.

Anyway, I like any discussion or idea to make things better. Please explain further how you think this will work. Based on what you said, I'm envisioning a system where we identify anyone with a certain type of behavior issue and then not allow them to have a gun. Am I along the right path? I have some thoughts on where that goes after that, but I don't want to go into it until I hear back from you.
Yep, no politicizing from me. My point is this is like clockwork. Mass shooting. Immediate talk about gun bans. Politicians discuss banning of guns. Gun owners stock up on guns. I'm sure the data is out there but I can almost ensure that gun and ammunition sales will go up this week and the coming weeks.

In regards to your second paragraph, I like the part of identifying people with certain types of behavior. I think we can do a better job of this and it starts with education and funding programs that specialize in mental health. And in this day and age, as I mentioned yesterday, I think we need to take a closer look at bullying in general. Again, I think with proper funding we could try and nip these issues in the bud before they are allowed to evolve and escalate to violence.

I wouldn't suggest taking away peoples guns. Though I do agree that we could have better systems to ensure the guns are primarily in the hands of responsible gun owners. Which my personal belief is a vast majority of gun owners. That said, I also believe if a person wants a gun, a person can get a gun. If a person wants drugs, they can get drugs. If a person wants to rape or murder someone, they will rape and murder someone.

I guess that was my main point. The issue always becomes guns, gun laws, banning of guns, etc. The discussion never turns to the person, their mental health, their education, (unless they were highly intelligent and it becomes a talking point) social status or anything that may have molded them into what they became. It's how I know I'll never be a mass murderer, despite owning guns. Or how I know some of my friends that basically have an arsenal in their homes will also never be mass murderers.

I have far from the answers and have said as much. But every time these terrible tragedies occur I automatically cringe because I know the hot topic will be banning of guns, and the discussion never evolves into education and mental health. Which is why I don't see an end in sight for these terrible mass shootings, and how I know when the next one happens we'll be right back where we are today.
I seriously don't think we'll ever get rid of mass shootings, as you said, if someone wants to roll into a crowd of people and starting shooting, they'll find a way to do it. I think a combined effort of, as you're saying, funding mental health to ID these kinds of people and forbid them from owning guns. It wouldn't be an be-all end-all, but it would help. I also think some types of weapons and their accessories aren't necessary, which I know is going down the gun control road, so I won't delve into that at all.

So there would need to be legislation to fund the education and mental health, how likely do you think that is. Again, I know you don't want to politicize this, but the Republican party typically doesn't want to increase taxes for these kinds of things. Do you have an ideas on how to sell it to them? Do you think that the threat of "taking their guns away" would be an incentive to get them to put money into this?

I don't think there's much hope of ever bringing an end to gun violence in the United States. I'm to a point where I wish it didn't get any press, because that just seems to inspire more gun violence. It's a sad situation, I think we can all agree on that.

You're right though. Whenever this happens the left screams for gun control. The right counters with people need more guns to dissuade mass shooters. The middle starts talking about other things, but they cost money and then we go right back into a political debate. The left will say we don't need to do that, we just need to put in "common sense" (whatever that is) measures and the right will say we don't need that, we just need to arm teachers and allow conceal carry in the workplace.

I hope you can come back and tell me there's hope for your proposal. It does sound good to me.



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Re: 10 dead in Boulder, Colo. shooting

Post by BigBruceBaker » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:32 pm

iaafan wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:24 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:15 am
iaafan wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:44 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:31 am
We'll just keep making guns the number one issue when these shootings happen and never discuss what makes the shooter reach their breaking point. Shootings will keep happening, and guns will keep being the talking point.

It's like spending billions of dollars in the prison system while ignoring education issues and then acting shocked when poorly educated kids with no shot in life end up in prison.

Man we do things backwards in this country sometimes.
Fair enough, guns are definitely the main talking point on the left. I know you're not trying to politicize the discussion, but are mental health and education the talking point on the right? Seems like guns are also the main talking point on the right. As in, more guns make things safer and guns don't kill people anymore than spoons make people fat. So, for the most part, it's about guns.

Anyway, I like any discussion or idea to make things better. Please explain further how you think this will work. Based on what you said, I'm envisioning a system where we identify anyone with a certain type of behavior issue and then not allow them to have a gun. Am I along the right path? I have some thoughts on where that goes after that, but I don't want to go into it until I hear back from you.
Yep, no politicizing from me. My point is this is like clockwork. Mass shooting. Immediate talk about gun bans. Politicians discuss banning of guns. Gun owners stock up on guns. I'm sure the data is out there but I can almost ensure that gun and ammunition sales will go up this week and the coming weeks.

In regards to your second paragraph, I like the part of identifying people with certain types of behavior. I think we can do a better job of this and it starts with education and funding programs that specialize in mental health. And in this day and age, as I mentioned yesterday, I think we need to take a closer look at bullying in general. Again, I think with proper funding we could try and nip these issues in the bud before they are allowed to evolve and escalate to violence.

I wouldn't suggest taking away peoples guns. Though I do agree that we could have better systems to ensure the guns are primarily in the hands of responsible gun owners. Which my personal belief is a vast majority of gun owners. That said, I also believe if a person wants a gun, a person can get a gun. If a person wants drugs, they can get drugs. If a person wants to rape or murder someone, they will rape and murder someone.

I guess that was my main point. The issue always becomes guns, gun laws, banning of guns, etc. The discussion never turns to the person, their mental health, their education, (unless they were highly intelligent and it becomes a talking point) social status or anything that may have molded them into what they became. It's how I know I'll never be a mass murderer, despite owning guns. Or how I know some of my friends that basically have an arsenal in their homes will also never be mass murderers.

I have far from the answers and have said as much. But every time these terrible tragedies occur I automatically cringe because I know the hot topic will be banning of guns, and the discussion never evolves into education and mental health. Which is why I don't see an end in sight for these terrible mass shootings, and how I know when the next one happens we'll be right back where we are today.
I seriously don't think we'll ever get rid of mass shootings, as you said, if someone wants to roll into a crowd of people and starting shooting, they'll find a way to do it. I think a combined effort of, as you're saying, funding mental health to ID these kinds of people and forbid them from owning guns. It wouldn't be an be-all end-all, but it would help. I also think some types of weapons and their accessories aren't necessary, which I know is going down the gun control road, so I won't delve into that at all.

So there would need to be legislation to fund the education and mental health, how likely do you think that is. Again, I know you don't want to politicize this, but the Republican party typically doesn't want to increase taxes for these kinds of things. Do you have an ideas on how to sell it to them? Do you think that the threat of "taking their guns away" would be an incentive to get them to put money into this?

I don't think there's much hope of ever bringing an end to gun violence in the United States. I'm to a point where I wish it didn't get any press, because that just seems to inspire more gun violence. It's a sad situation, I think we can all agree on that.

You're right though. Whenever this happens the left screams for gun control. The right counters with people need more guns to dissuade mass shooters. The middle starts talking about other things, but they cost money and then we go right back into a political debate. The left will say we don't need to do that, we just need to put in "common sense" (whatever that is) measures and the right will say we don't need that, we just need to arm teachers and allow conceal carry in the workplace.

I hope you can come back and tell me there's hope for your proposal. It does sound good to me.
Just trying to spitball numbers, what do you think that would cost?


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Re: 10 dead in Boulder, Colo. shooting

Post by ilovethecats » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:56 pm

iaafan wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:24 pm

I hope you can come back and tell me there's hope for your proposal. It does sound good to me.
Well what you pointed out is exactly my frustration. If we just concede that it will ALWAYS be left vs right on every issue, which it is right now, I'll agree that nothing will change; big or small.

If people start putting on their big boy pants, look at situations individually, and figure out it's ok to have opinions that may not be in line with "party lines", maybe we could see some good come of it.

But I admit that the way you describe it, knowing people will always follow a party rather than personal opinions, things likely will never change on ANY issues.

Hence my frustration and disgust with politics.



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Re: 10 dead in Boulder, Colo. shooting

Post by Cataholic » Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:33 pm

BigBruceBaker wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:32 pm
iaafan wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:24 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:15 am
iaafan wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:44 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:31 am
We'll just keep making guns the number one issue when these shootings happen and never discuss what makes the shooter reach their breaking point. Shootings will keep happening, and guns will keep being the talking point.

It's like spending billions of dollars in the prison system while ignoring education issues and then acting shocked when poorly educated kids with no shot in life end up in prison.

Man we do things backwards in this country sometimes.
Fair enough, guns are definitely the main talking point on the left. I know you're not trying to politicize the discussion, but are mental health and education the talking point on the right? Seems like guns are also the main talking point on the right. As in, more guns make things safer and guns don't kill people anymore than spoons make people fat. So, for the most part, it's about guns.

Anyway, I like any discussion or idea to make things better. Please explain further how you think this will work. Based on what you said, I'm envisioning a system where we identify anyone with a certain type of behavior issue and then not allow them to have a gun. Am I along the right path? I have some thoughts on where that goes after that, but I don't want to go into it until I hear back from you.
Yep, no politicizing from me. My point is this is like clockwork. Mass shooting. Immediate talk about gun bans. Politicians discuss banning of guns. Gun owners stock up on guns. I'm sure the data is out there but I can almost ensure that gun and ammunition sales will go up this week and the coming weeks.

In regards to your second paragraph, I like the part of identifying people with certain types of behavior. I think we can do a better job of this and it starts with education and funding programs that specialize in mental health. And in this day and age, as I mentioned yesterday, I think we need to take a closer look at bullying in general. Again, I think with proper funding we could try and nip these issues in the bud before they are allowed to evolve and escalate to violence.

I wouldn't suggest taking away peoples guns. Though I do agree that we could have better systems to ensure the guns are primarily in the hands of responsible gun owners. Which my personal belief is a vast majority of gun owners. That said, I also believe if a person wants a gun, a person can get a gun. If a person wants drugs, they can get drugs. If a person wants to rape or murder someone, they will rape and murder someone.

I guess that was my main point. The issue always becomes guns, gun laws, banning of guns, etc. The discussion never turns to the person, their mental health, their education, (unless they were highly intelligent and it becomes a talking point) social status or anything that may have molded them into what they became. It's how I know I'll never be a mass murderer, despite owning guns. Or how I know some of my friends that basically have an arsenal in their homes will also never be mass murderers.

I have far from the answers and have said as much. But every time these terrible tragedies occur I automatically cringe because I know the hot topic will be banning of guns, and the discussion never evolves into education and mental health. Which is why I don't see an end in sight for these terrible mass shootings, and how I know when the next one happens we'll be right back where we are today.
I seriously don't think we'll ever get rid of mass shootings, as you said, if someone wants to roll into a crowd of people and starting shooting, they'll find a way to do it. I think a combined effort of, as you're saying, funding mental health to ID these kinds of people and forbid them from owning guns. It wouldn't be an be-all end-all, but it would help. I also think some types of weapons and their accessories aren't necessary, which I know is going down the gun control road, so I won't delve into that at all.

So there would need to be legislation to fund the education and mental health, how likely do you think that is. Again, I know you don't want to politicize this, but the Republican party typically doesn't want to increase taxes for these kinds of things. Do you have an ideas on how to sell it to them? Do you think that the threat of "taking their guns away" would be an incentive to get them to put money into this?

I don't think there's much hope of ever bringing an end to gun violence in the United States. I'm to a point where I wish it didn't get any press, because that just seems to inspire more gun violence. It's a sad situation, I think we can all agree on that.

You're right though. Whenever this happens the left screams for gun control. The right counters with people need more guns to dissuade mass shooters. The middle starts talking about other things, but they cost money and then we go right back into a political debate. The left will say we don't need to do that, we just need to put in "common sense" (whatever that is) measures and the right will say we don't need that, we just need to arm teachers and allow conceal carry in the workplace.

I hope you can come back and tell me there's hope for your proposal. It does sound good to me.
Just trying to spitball numbers, what do you think that would cost?
It probably doesn’t matter what number iaa proposes. With the Democrats way of doing things, it will be a never ending siphon of funds. We just spent billions of dollars on various liberal causes such as financial assistance to minority farmers. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) And there is nothing preventing Dems from pushing through legislation and more taxes right now anyway.

By the way, I am good with funding such a program. Makes sense. But the liberals have done nothing to show that they will stop with that.



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Re: 10 dead in Boulder, Colo. shooting

Post by Cataholic » Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:42 pm

TomCat88 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:52 am
Cataholic wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:07 pm
[quote=iaafan post_id=726974 time=<a href="tel:1616548873">1616548873</a> user_id=170]
[quote=Cataholic post_id=726968 time=<a href="tel:1616543701">1616543701</a> user_id=21338]
[quote=iaafan post_id=726963 time=<a href="tel:1616541678">1616541678</a> user_id=170]
[quote=Cataholic post_id=726959 time=<a href="tel:1616539658">1616539658</a> user_id=21338]
[quote=iaafan post_id=726952 time=<a href="tel:1616536083">1616536083</a> user_id=170]
Boulder, Colorado passed an assault weapons ban in 2018.

The NRA sued the city and a judge struck down the ban 10 days ago.

The Boulder shooter bought the gun 6 days before the shooting.
The judge ruled that the city of Boulder does not have the legal authority to ban weapons because they are superseded by state law in Colorado. The state controls that authority.

It appears that you are trying to make a case that this shooting was a direct result of the ban being stricken down.
Just pointing it out. No more than you appear to be making a case that it had nothing to do with it.

[/quote]

I am just trying to figure how the two are related. Maybe you can explain? Did the shooter purchase the gun in Boulder? Did he hear about the ban being struck down in Boulder and decide to drive to Boulder to buy his weapons even though that ban did not exist where he lived? Did he specifically choose Boulder for the shootings and drive 30 miles from Arvada because there was no ban on assault weapons? Please explain... or maybe it is the Democrats taking another tragedy and manipulating facts to push an agenda - in this instance, gun control.
[/quote]
Let me know what you find out.

They might, or might not, be related. If I thought they were, I'd say, "look at this. The NRA got the courts to remove the law and just days later a guy buys an AR15 and kills 10 people, which is the sole cause of this tragic event." If I said that then I would explain.

Are you saying they're definitely not related? You seem to be. Please enlighten everyone with your acumen.
[/quote]

Cmon man! How gullible do you think your audience is? You wrote your comments about the Boulder assault weapons ban in a thread on the Boulder shootings. Now you are claiming that you didn't imply that the two are related? ](*,) ](*,) :lol: :lol: :lol: Where do you come up with this stuff?

And I provided multiple questions above that you completely ignored. The answers to the questions are obvious, as they were meant to illustrate the lack of any connection between the ban and the actual shooting.

The Democrat playbook has become so predictable when it comes to events like this. They will take various issues, related or not, and manipulate them to further their agenda. This was a mental illness tragedy that Democrats will turn into a gun control issue. The Atlanta shootings last week were turned into a racial issue, even though the shooter was not motivated by race. As further evidence of the Democrat's motives, Biden is now threatening to take executive action to ban assault weapons.
[/quote]
I didn’t infer that he was implying that. It’s been reported by every news outlet. I don’t have a problem with someone thinking it did or didn’t cause what happened at this point since the facts aren’t all out yet. People are allowed to speculate.

You’re overreaching here in an attempt to get anyone that isn’t on your side to look partisan. Makes you look just as, if not more, partisan.

Bottom line is guns are a wedge issue. The whole point is to cement the two party system in place. Very few Democrats and Republicans in office care if there’s gun control or not. They run on it is all. People need to open their eyes.

My advice is to start a third party for the middle class that identifies and then ignores wedge issues.
[/quote]
Hi Tom. I want to set the record straight. I am okay with banning assaults weapons. There is no legitimate use for them. I am also okay with background checks and a waiting period. These all make sense.

What I am disgusted with is the politicization of the horrific events, specifically by iaa. Just last week a shooting in Atlanta was categorized as a hate crime and white privilege. It wasn’t. Now he is implying that the shooter purchased a gun due to the ban being stricken. Look at his original post. Not the case. Let’s stick to the facts and quit manipulating facts to push a certain agenda.



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Re: 10 dead in Boulder, Colo. shooting

Post by catatac » Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:49 pm

ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:56 pm
iaafan wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:24 pm

I hope you can come back and tell me there's hope for your proposal. It does sound good to me.
Well what you pointed out is exactly my frustration. If we just concede that it will ALWAYS be left vs right on every issue, which it is right now, I'll agree that nothing will change; big or small.

If people start putting on their big boy pants, look at situations individually, and figure out it's ok to have opinions that may not be in line with "party lines", maybe we could see some good come of it.

But I admit that the way you describe it, knowing people will always follow a party rather than personal opinions, things likely will never change on ANY issues.

Hence my frustration and disgust with politics.
In my opinion... SOME DAY, the mass shootings problem will be solved with technology. Unfortunately that will be a ways down the road, even though we have a lot of technologies that would probably work towards solving the problem. Some people will hate it, it will be an infringement on rights, etc... but that's where it will end up, assuming we still have a human society on this planet in 1,000 years.


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Re: 10 dead in Boulder, Colo. shooting

Post by Bobcat4Ever » Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:12 am

IMHO, we need to figure out what’s causing it. It’s a statistics problem. How many people had guns each year? Let’s take 1950. How many mass shootings per capita were there? How many gun owners? At least in Bozeman in 1950 there were a lot of guns per capita. Because unless you were rich, which was pretty much no one, you had one or more rifles and shotguns in the family to hunt for meat, not for sport. An awful lot of us grew up on elk from the Gallatin or Gardiner. And ducks and geese from the local rivers. So why are there more mass shootings? What else has changed? Medications. Extreme pressure on kids to get into college. Video games. Bullying. Social media. Start throwing those (and more) into a multi-variate analysis and see what most closely explains the change. Then treat it. Make colleges be affordable again. Ban gun violence in video games. I don’t know the answer — but I sincerely don’t believe it is more guns. Identify the causes — and fix them. The scientific approach.



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Re: 10 dead in Boulder, Colo. shooting

Post by TomCat88 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:51 am

I think if AR15s are legal then Clackers, Lawn Darts and Slingshots should be, too. Starting a petition.


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