More Covid Data

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Cataholic
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Re: More Covid Data

Post by Cataholic » Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:17 pm

BozoneCat wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:39 am
catatac wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:46 am
Looking at the numbers for Covid deaths, the U.S. accounts for 25% of all Covid deaths world wide, yet the U.S. only accounts for 4% of the worlds population. How can there be such a HUGE disparity like this?
It's pretty simple. We went through the meat of the pandemic with a president that refused to acknowledge the seriousness of this virus and turned simple preventative measures into a divisive political issue. To boot, Americans are acting like the spoiled, petulant children that most of the rest of the world thinks we are and refusing to take said preventative measures. On top of that, Americans are some of the unhealthiest people on the planet, so when they get COVID, they are at higher risk for more severe symptoms, including death.
I couldn’t believe Trump ordered Covid patients into nursing homes. That was such a bad decision. Oh wait, Trump didn’t do that??? Well, I guess Trump should never have told people “NYC was open for business” or to “come to Chinatown” or “that banning travel was just being racist”. Oh wait again, Trump didn’t do any of those things? Well at least we have multiple vaccines right now!
So glad somebody was spearheading those efforts over a year ago.



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BozoneCat
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Re: More Covid Data

Post by BozoneCat » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:35 pm

Cataholic wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:17 pm
BozoneCat wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:39 am
catatac wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:46 am
Looking at the numbers for Covid deaths, the U.S. accounts for 25% of all Covid deaths world wide, yet the U.S. only accounts for 4% of the worlds population. How can there be such a HUGE disparity like this?
It's pretty simple. We went through the meat of the pandemic with a president that refused to acknowledge the seriousness of this virus and turned simple preventative measures into a divisive political issue. To boot, Americans are acting like the spoiled, petulant children that most of the rest of the world thinks we are and refusing to take said preventative measures. On top of that, Americans are some of the unhealthiest people on the planet, so when they get COVID, they are at higher risk for more severe symptoms, including death.
I couldn’t believe Trump ordered Covid patients into nursing homes. That was such a bad decision. Oh wait, Trump didn’t do that??? Well, I guess Trump should never have told people “NYC was open for business” or to “come to Chinatown” or “that banning travel was just being racist”. Oh wait again, Trump didn’t do any of those things? Well at least we have multiple vaccines right now!
So glad somebody was spearheading those efforts over a year ago.
Give me a break. Nobody's defending Cuomo, certainly at least not on here. He's an idiot too and will certainly answer for his handling of things in NY. Trump paraded around telling anyone who would listen that COVID was no big deal, we have it under control, it'll go away, etc. He refused to heed medical advice and did not wear a mask. He laughed it off after damn near dying from it. He is hugely (not solely) to blame for where we are today.


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Cataholic
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Re: More Covid Data

Post by Cataholic » Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:47 pm

BozoneCat wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:35 pm
Cataholic wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:17 pm
BozoneCat wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:39 am
catatac wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:46 am
Looking at the numbers for Covid deaths, the U.S. accounts for 25% of all Covid deaths world wide, yet the U.S. only accounts for 4% of the worlds population. How can there be such a HUGE disparity like this?
It's pretty simple. We went through the meat of the pandemic with a president that refused to acknowledge the seriousness of this virus and turned simple preventative measures into a divisive political issue. To boot, Americans are acting like the spoiled, petulant children that most of the rest of the world thinks we are and refusing to take said preventative measures. On top of that, Americans are some of the unhealthiest people on the planet, so when they get COVID, they are at higher risk for more severe symptoms, including death.
I couldn’t believe Trump ordered Covid patients into nursing homes. That was such a bad decision. Oh wait, Trump didn’t do that??? Well, I guess Trump should never have told people “NYC was open for business” or to “come to Chinatown” or “that banning travel was just being racist”. Oh wait again, Trump didn’t do any of those things? Well at least we have multiple vaccines right now!
So glad somebody was spearheading those efforts over a year ago.
Give me a break. Nobody's defending Cuomo, certainly at least not on here. He's an idiot too and will certainly answer for his handling of things in NY. Trump paraded around telling anyone who would listen that COVID was no big deal, we have it under control, it'll go away, etc. He refused to heed medical advice and did not wear a mask. He laughed it off after damn near dying from it. He is hugely (not solely) to blame for where we are today.
So you acknowledge that many people are to blame for the pandemic. Your initial post seemed to blame only one person. But we all know better.



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wbtfg
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Re: More Covid Data

Post by wbtfg » Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:14 pm

Cataholic wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:47 pm
BozoneCat wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:35 pm
Cataholic wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:17 pm
BozoneCat wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:39 am
catatac wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:46 am
Looking at the numbers for Covid deaths, the U.S. accounts for 25% of all Covid deaths world wide, yet the U.S. only accounts for 4% of the worlds population. How can there be such a HUGE disparity like this?
It's pretty simple. We went through the meat of the pandemic with a president that refused to acknowledge the seriousness of this virus and turned simple preventative measures into a divisive political issue. To boot, Americans are acting like the spoiled, petulant children that most of the rest of the world thinks we are and refusing to take said preventative measures. On top of that, Americans are some of the unhealthiest people on the planet, so when they get COVID, they are at higher risk for more severe symptoms, including death.
I couldn’t believe Trump ordered Covid patients into nursing homes. That was such a bad decision. Oh wait, Trump didn’t do that??? Well, I guess Trump should never have told people “NYC was open for business” or to “come to Chinatown” or “that banning travel was just being racist”. Oh wait again, Trump didn’t do any of those things? Well at least we have multiple vaccines right now!
So glad somebody was spearheading those efforts over a year ago.
Give me a break. Nobody's defending Cuomo, certainly at least not on here. He's an idiot too and will certainly answer for his handling of things in NY. Trump paraded around telling anyone who would listen that COVID was no big deal, we have it under control, it'll go away, etc. He refused to heed medical advice and did not wear a mask. He laughed it off after damn near dying from it. He is hugely (not solely) to blame for where we are today.
So you acknowledge that many people are to blame for the pandemic. Your initial post seemed to blame only one person. But we all know better.
On an A - F grading scale, how would you grade president Trump’s leadership and response to the pandemic?



Cataholic
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Re: More Covid Data

Post by Cataholic » Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:46 pm

wbtfg wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:14 pm
Cataholic wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:47 pm
BozoneCat wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:35 pm
Cataholic wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:17 pm
BozoneCat wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:39 am
catatac wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:46 am
Looking at the numbers for Covid deaths, the U.S. accounts for 25% of all Covid deaths world wide, yet the U.S. only accounts for 4% of the worlds population. How can there be such a HUGE disparity like this?
It's pretty simple. We went through the meat of the pandemic with a president that refused to acknowledge the seriousness of this virus and turned simple preventative measures into a divisive political issue. To boot, Americans are acting like the spoiled, petulant children that most of the rest of the world thinks we are and refusing to take said preventative measures. On top of that, Americans are some of the unhealthiest people on the planet, so when they get COVID, they are at higher risk for more severe symptoms, including death.
I couldn’t believe Trump ordered Covid patients into nursing homes. That was such a bad decision. Oh wait, Trump didn’t do that??? Well, I guess Trump should never have told people “NYC was open for business” or to “come to Chinatown” or “that banning travel was just being racist”. Oh wait again, Trump didn’t do any of those things? Well at least we have multiple vaccines right now!
So glad somebody was spearheading those efforts over a year ago.
Give me a break. Nobody's defending Cuomo, certainly at least not on here. He's an idiot too and will certainly answer for his handling of things in NY. Trump paraded around telling anyone who would listen that COVID was no big deal, we have it under control, it'll go away, etc. He refused to heed medical advice and did not wear a mask. He laughed it off after damn near dying from it. He is hugely (not solely) to blame for where we are today.
So you acknowledge that many people are to blame for the pandemic. Your initial post seemed to blame only one person. But we all know better.
On an A - F grading scale, how would you grade president Trump’s leadership and response to the pandemic?
B minus. Hindsight is 20/20 so it easy to second guess past decisions. He should have worked harder to unite both sides to jointly fight the virus, but that is hard to do when the other side hates your guts. Even when developing a vaccine, Dems swore they would never take a vaccine developed by Trump.

As you know, pandemics are completely new and there is no single tested and true method to deal with them. Lots of blame to go around and many people should share in the failures.



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BozoneCat
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Re: More Covid Data

Post by BozoneCat » Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:40 pm

Cataholic wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:47 pm
BozoneCat wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:35 pm
Cataholic wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:17 pm
BozoneCat wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:39 am
catatac wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:46 am
Looking at the numbers for Covid deaths, the U.S. accounts for 25% of all Covid deaths world wide, yet the U.S. only accounts for 4% of the worlds population. How can there be such a HUGE disparity like this?
It's pretty simple. We went through the meat of the pandemic with a president that refused to acknowledge the seriousness of this virus and turned simple preventative measures into a divisive political issue. To boot, Americans are acting like the spoiled, petulant children that most of the rest of the world thinks we are and refusing to take said preventative measures. On top of that, Americans are some of the unhealthiest people on the planet, so when they get COVID, they are at higher risk for more severe symptoms, including death.
I couldn’t believe Trump ordered Covid patients into nursing homes. That was such a bad decision. Oh wait, Trump didn’t do that??? Well, I guess Trump should never have told people “NYC was open for business” or to “come to Chinatown” or “that banning travel was just being racist”. Oh wait again, Trump didn’t do any of those things? Well at least we have multiple vaccines right now!
So glad somebody was spearheading those efforts over a year ago.
Give me a break. Nobody's defending Cuomo, certainly at least not on here. He's an idiot too and will certainly answer for his handling of things in NY. Trump paraded around telling anyone who would listen that COVID was no big deal, we have it under control, it'll go away, etc. He refused to heed medical advice and did not wear a mask. He laughed it off after damn near dying from it. He is hugely (not solely) to blame for where we are today.
So you acknowledge that many people are to blame for the pandemic. Your initial post seemed to blame only one person. But we all know better.
Not sure how you got that I am blaming only Trump for the pandemic? If you re-read my post, I’m actually blaming about 150 million people. There are layers of blame to go around. I place the most blame on him above all others, because his leadership caused the most harm. I’d absolutely give him an F- for his handling of the pandemic, and if we’re being honest, it cost him the election.


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Cataholic
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Re: More Covid Data

Post by Cataholic » Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:26 pm

BozoneCat wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:40 pm
Cataholic wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:47 pm
BozoneCat wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:35 pm
Cataholic wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:17 pm
BozoneCat wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:39 am
catatac wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:46 am
Looking at the numbers for Covid deaths, the U.S. accounts for 25% of all Covid deaths world wide, yet the U.S. only accounts for 4% of the worlds population. How can there be such a HUGE disparity like this?
It's pretty simple. We went through the meat of the pandemic with a president that refused to acknowledge the seriousness of this virus and turned simple preventative measures into a divisive political issue. To boot, Americans are acting like the spoiled, petulant children that most of the rest of the world thinks we are and refusing to take said preventative measures. On top of that, Americans are some of the unhealthiest people on the planet, so when they get COVID, they are at higher risk for more severe symptoms, including death.
I couldn’t believe Trump ordered Covid patients into nursing homes. That was such a bad decision. Oh wait, Trump didn’t do that??? Well, I guess Trump should never have told people “NYC was open for business” or to “come to Chinatown” or “that banning travel was just being racist”. Oh wait again, Trump didn’t do any of those things? Well at least we have multiple vaccines right now!
So glad somebody was spearheading those efforts over a year ago.
Give me a break. Nobody's defending Cuomo, certainly at least not on here. He's an idiot too and will certainly answer for his handling of things in NY. Trump paraded around telling anyone who would listen that COVID was no big deal, we have it under control, it'll go away, etc. He refused to heed medical advice and did not wear a mask. He laughed it off after damn near dying from it. He is hugely (not solely) to blame for where we are today.
So you acknowledge that many people are to blame for the pandemic. Your initial post seemed to blame only one person. But we all know better.
Not sure how you got that I am blaming only Trump for the pandemic? If you re-read my post, I’m actually blaming about 150 million people. There are layers of blame to go around. I place the most blame on him above all others, because his leadership caused the most harm. I’d absolutely give him an F- for his handling of the pandemic, and if we’re being honest, it cost him the election.
The best thing that ever happened to Joe Biden was the pandemic. If you look at a recent book by one of his senior advisors, they admit that!

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/5 ... -biden?amp

Here is what is crazy... people were going to get infected and there is no sure fire method of dealing with a pandemic. 60 million Americans were infected by the Swine flu when Obama-Biden was in charge. He was lucky that disease was not as deadly.

https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2020/ ... rus-232992

We can all second guess and nobody is guaranteed to be right. Biden has basically continued exactly what Trump was doing! But according to Biden, stopping people from China entering the country back in March was racist.

If you are going to blame Trump, bring some actual facts, and recognize that multiple people added to this mess. Quite frankly, I think we were very lucky that Biden was not president when it started because he would have kissed the WHO asses and let people from all over the world bring the virus to our county. Look at the fiasco at the border right now. Thousands coming into this country with no social distancing, masks or even covid testing. Complete sh1t show!



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RickRund
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Re: More Covid Data

Post by RickRund » Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:24 am

Cataholic wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:26 pm
BozoneCat wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:40 pm
Cataholic wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:47 pm
BozoneCat wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:35 pm
Cataholic wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:17 pm
BozoneCat wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:39 am
catatac wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:46 am
Looking at the numbers for Covid deaths, the U.S. accounts for 25% of all Covid deaths world wide, yet the U.S. only accounts for 4% of the worlds population. How can there be such a HUGE disparity like this?
It's pretty simple. We went through the meat of the pandemic with a president that refused to acknowledge the seriousness of this virus and turned simple preventative measures into a divisive political issue. To boot, Americans are acting like the spoiled, petulant children that most of the rest of the world thinks we are and refusing to take said preventative measures. On top of that, Americans are some of the unhealthiest people on the planet, so when they get COVID, they are at higher risk for more severe symptoms, including death.
I couldn’t believe Trump ordered Covid patients into nursing homes. That was such a bad decision. Oh wait, Trump didn’t do that??? Well, I guess Trump should never have told people “NYC was open for business” or to “come to Chinatown” or “that banning travel was just being racist”. Oh wait again, Trump didn’t do any of those things? Well at least we have multiple vaccines right now!
So glad somebody was spearheading those efforts over a year ago.
Give me a break. Nobody's defending Cuomo, certainly at least not on here. He's an idiot too and will certainly answer for his handling of things in NY. Trump paraded around telling anyone who would listen that COVID was no big deal, we have it under control, it'll go away, etc. He refused to heed medical advice and did not wear a mask. He laughed it off after damn near dying from it. He is hugely (not solely) to blame for where we are today.
So you acknowledge that many people are to blame for the pandemic. Your initial post seemed to blame only one person. But we all know better.
Not sure how you got that I am blaming only Trump for the pandemic? If you re-read my post, I’m actually blaming about 150 million people. There are layers of blame to go around. I place the most blame on him above all others, because his leadership caused the most harm. I’d absolutely give him an F- for his handling of the pandemic, and if we’re being honest, it cost him the election.
The best thing that ever happened to Joe Biden was the pandemic. If you look at a recent book by one of his senior advisors, they admit that!

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/5 ... -biden?amp

Here is what is crazy... people were going to get infected and there is no sure fire method of dealing with a pandemic. 60 million Americans were infected by the Swine flu when Obama-Biden was in charge. He was lucky that disease was not as deadly.

https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2020/ ... rus-232992

We can all second guess and nobody is guaranteed to be right. Biden has basically continued exactly what Trump was doing! But according to Biden, stopping people from China entering the country back in March was racist.

If you are going to blame Trump, bring some actual facts, and recognize that multiple people added to this mess. Quite frankly, I think we were very lucky that Biden was not president when it started because he would have kissed the WHO asses and let people from all over the world bring the virus to our county. Look at the fiasco at the border right now. Thousands coming into this country with no social distancing, masks or even covid testing. Complete sh1t show!
And they are finding and releasing covid positive illegals at the Brownsville crossing. At just that crossing the caught and released 108.



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BozoneCat
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Re: More Covid Data

Post by BozoneCat » Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:52 pm

BozoneCat wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:40 pm
Not sure how you got that I am blaming only Trump for the pandemic? If you re-read my post, I’m actually blaming about 150 million people. There are layers of blame to go around. I place the most blame on him above all others, because his leadership caused the most harm. I’d absolutely give him an F- for his handling of the pandemic, and if we’re being honest, it cost him the election.
Cataholic wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:26 pm
The best thing that ever happened to Joe Biden was the pandemic. If you look at a recent book by one of his senior advisors, they admit that!

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/5 ... -biden?amp
I just said that. Biden's #1 campaign issue was focusing on the poor handling of the pandemic. Sure, there were other things, but I think with all the built-in advantages incumbent presidents have, it's likely that had this virus never existed, Trump would probably be in the early days of his 2nd term. That's all hypothetical, of course, but it is almost certainly the issue that caused enough people who voted (R) for the House & Senate to vote Biden as President and sway the election.
Cataholic wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:26 pm
Here is what is crazy... people were going to get infected and there is no sure fire method of dealing with a pandemic. 60 million Americans were infected by the Swine flu when Obama-Biden was in charge. He was lucky that disease was not as deadly.

https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2020/ ... rus-232992

We can all second guess and nobody is guaranteed to be right. Biden has basically continued exactly what Trump was doing! But according to Biden, stopping people from China entering the country back in March was racist.
Disagree strongly. Yes, we've had many different viruses over the past 10-20 years (avian flu, swine flu, H1N1, etc.) but COVID has been a perfect storm in both its contagiousness as well as being just "un-deadly" enough to not run itself out before it catches steam. You know the best way to deal with a pandemic? Listen to the damn doctors and do what they say! They don't give 2 rips about politics when it comes to public health, they are trying to save lives. I don't think you can really compare swine flu to COVID because they aren't the same thing. Hopefully, we also learned some things from the mistakes that were made with the swine flu that should have helped guide us in dealing with COVID, but nobody listened when the recommendations were made.

You gotta let the China thing go. You keep bringing it up, and it's a misrepresentation at best, and regardless irrelevant at this point. Biden has done almost 180 degrees different from what Trump was doing. He's continuing to push masks (and wearing one himself), he's changed the agencies and the doctors/scientists that are leading us through this (and he's actually listening to them), and he has managed to get the vaccine rollout organized and delivered much better than was happening under Trump. I'll happily give Trump some credit for getting the vaccines developed, although I personally give a lot more credit to the scientific community because that's just what they do, as well as the pharmaceutical companies because making money is what they do; essentially, I think this would have happened even if "Warp Speed" never existed, but I think it helped reduce some of the normal red tape and provided funding, so I think he should get credit for that. Problem was, apparently no one ever had the thought that we needed an equally organized and multi-tiered approach to getting it in people's arms. It's taken 2 months to fix those problems, but I think we're finally almost there and the rollout should go much smoother from this point forward. Fingers crossed.
Cataholic wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:26 pm
If you are going to blame Trump, bring some actual facts, and recognize that multiple people added to this mess. Quite frankly, I think we were very lucky that Biden was not president when it started because he would have kissed the WHO asses and let people from all over the world bring the virus to our county. Look at the fiasco at the border right now. Thousands coming into this country with no social distancing, masks or even covid testing. Complete sh1t show!
I've stated multiple times that there are many people who are to blame for the mess we're in. First and foremost, I blame individuals. We all make decisions on how to act regardless of what the government tells us, and millions of people are acting like petulant, spoiled, selfish children right now. I don't care if there is a mask mandate or not, I wear one everywhere I go. And I will not patronize businesses who are not trying to enforce some kind of masking and distancing; on the flip side, I go out of my way to support businesses that are. I put a lot of blame on Trump for turning this whole fiasco into a political issue, and for turning the dial up to 11. I think Biden would have handled it completely differently. We'd still have plenty of problems, because COVID is kind of a perfect little bug for doing what it's doing, and I think we can see that the rest of the world is also having problems, so clearly there is no easy answer. But I don't think the U.S. would have near as many cases, or near the death rate, if it hadn't been so politicized and everyone just got on board with the protective measures from the get-go. The words and actions of a president are important, so saying it's no big deal, ridiculing your own self-appointed physicians, and acting the way he has from Day 1 is a huge part of why we're here.

Border issue is a goat show, but overstated. I'm a lot more worried about what's going on in the state of Texas than I am what's happening at the border. A few thousand (and I agree, I don't like how it's being handled) vs. millions of people with no social distancing, masks, vaccines (as of the weekend, I believe only 7% of the population in TX has been vaccinated), and many citizens of that state have money to travel around the rest of the country. I'd call Texas a far bigger sh*t show than the border fiasco.


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catatac
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Re: More Covid Data

Post by catatac » Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:14 pm

BozoneCat wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:52 pm
BozoneCat wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:40 pm
Not sure how you got that I am blaming only Trump for the pandemic? If you re-read my post, I’m actually blaming about 150 million people. There are layers of blame to go around. I place the most blame on him above all others, because his leadership caused the most harm. I’d absolutely give him an F- for his handling of the pandemic, and if we’re being honest, it cost him the election.
Cataholic wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:26 pm
The best thing that ever happened to Joe Biden was the pandemic. If you look at a recent book by one of his senior advisors, they admit that!

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/5 ... -biden?amp
I just said that. Biden's #1 campaign issue was focusing on the poor handling of the pandemic. Sure, there were other things, but I think with all the built-in advantages incumbent presidents have, it's likely that had this virus never existed, Trump would probably be in the early days of his 2nd term. That's all hypothetical, of course, but it is almost certainly the issue that caused enough people who voted (R) for the House & Senate to vote Biden as President and sway the election.
Cataholic wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:26 pm
Here is what is crazy... people were going to get infected and there is no sure fire method of dealing with a pandemic. 60 million Americans were infected by the Swine flu when Obama-Biden was in charge. He was lucky that disease was not as deadly.

https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2020/ ... rus-232992

We can all second guess and nobody is guaranteed to be right. Biden has basically continued exactly what Trump was doing! But according to Biden, stopping people from China entering the country back in March was racist.
Disagree strongly. Yes, we've had many different viruses over the past 10-20 years (avian flu, swine flu, H1N1, etc.) but COVID has been a perfect storm in both its contagiousness as well as being just "un-deadly" enough to not run itself out before it catches steam. You know the best way to deal with a pandemic? Listen to the damn doctors and do what they say! They don't give 2 rips about politics when it comes to public health, they are trying to save lives. I don't think you can really compare swine flu to COVID because they aren't the same thing. Hopefully, we also learned some things from the mistakes that were made with the swine flu that should have helped guide us in dealing with COVID, but nobody listened when the recommendations were made.

You gotta let the China thing go. You keep bringing it up, and it's a misrepresentation at best, and regardless irrelevant at this point. Biden has done almost 180 degrees different from what Trump was doing. He's continuing to push masks (and wearing one himself), he's changed the agencies and the doctors/scientists that are leading us through this (and he's actually listening to them), and he has managed to get the vaccine rollout organized and delivered much better than was happening under Trump. I'll happily give Trump some credit for getting the vaccines developed, although I personally give a lot more credit to the scientific community because that's just what they do, as well as the pharmaceutical companies because making money is what they do; essentially, I think this would have happened even if "Warp Speed" never existed, but I think it helped reduce some of the normal red tape and provided funding, so I think he should get credit for that. Problem was, apparently no one ever had the thought that we needed an equally organized and multi-tiered approach to getting it in people's arms. It's taken 2 months to fix those problems, but I think we're finally almost there and the rollout should go much smoother from this point forward. Fingers crossed.
Cataholic wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:26 pm
If you are going to blame Trump, bring some actual facts, and recognize that multiple people added to this mess. Quite frankly, I think we were very lucky that Biden was not president when it started because he would have kissed the WHO asses and let people from all over the world bring the virus to our county. Look at the fiasco at the border right now. Thousands coming into this country with no social distancing, masks or even covid testing. Complete sh1t show!
I've stated multiple times that there are many people who are to blame for the mess we're in. First and foremost, I blame individuals. We all make decisions on how to act regardless of what the government tells us, and millions of people are acting like petulant, spoiled, selfish children right now. I don't care if there is a mask mandate or not, I wear one everywhere I go. And I will not patronize businesses who are not trying to enforce some kind of masking and distancing; on the flip side, I go out of my way to support businesses that are. I put a lot of blame on Trump for turning this whole fiasco into a political issue, and for turning the dial up to 11. I think Biden would have handled it completely differently. We'd still have plenty of problems, because COVID is kind of a perfect little bug for doing what it's doing, and I think we can see that the rest of the world is also having problems, so clearly there is no easy answer. But I don't think the U.S. would have near as many cases, or near the death rate, if it hadn't been so politicized and everyone just got on board with the protective measures from the get-go. The words and actions of a president are important, so saying it's no big deal, ridiculing your own self-appointed physicians, and acting the way he has from Day 1 is a huge part of why we're here.

Border issue is a goat show, but overstated. I'm a lot more worried about what's going on in the state of Texas than I am what's happening at the border. A few thousand (and I agree, I don't like how it's being handled) vs. millions of people with no social distancing, masks, vaccines (as of the weekend, I believe only 7% of the population in TX has been vaccinated), and many citizens of that state have money to travel around the rest of the country. I'd call Texas a far bigger sh*t show than the border fiasco.
I think you make a lot of good counterpoints here, and I agree with some of them but for the part I bolded above, I assume when you ssay "differently" you imply "better"? If so, how can you say that when Biden criticized Trump for shutting down travel from China and said he was over reacting and being racist?


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Cataholic
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Re: More Covid Data

Post by Cataholic » Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:24 pm

BozoneCat wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:52 pm
BozoneCat wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:40 pm
Not sure how you got that I am blaming only Trump for the pandemic? If you re-read my post, I’m actually blaming about 150 million people. There are layers of blame to go around. I place the most blame on him above all others, because his leadership caused the most harm. I’d absolutely give him an F- for his handling of the pandemic, and if we’re being honest, it cost him the election.
Cataholic wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:26 pm
The best thing that ever happened to Joe Biden was the pandemic. If you look at a recent book by one of his senior advisors, they admit that!

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/5 ... -biden?amp
I just said that. Biden's #1 campaign issue was focusing on the poor handling of the pandemic. Sure, there were other things, but I think with all the built-in advantages incumbent presidents have, it's likely that had this virus never existed, Trump would probably be in the early days of his 2nd term. That's all hypothetical, of course, but it is almost certainly the issue that caused enough people who voted (R) for the House & Senate to vote Biden as President and sway the election.
Cataholic wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:26 pm
Here is what is crazy... people were going to get infected and there is no sure fire method of dealing with a pandemic. 60 million Americans were infected by the Swine flu when Obama-Biden was in charge. He was lucky that disease was not as deadly.

https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2020/ ... rus-232992

We can all second guess and nobody is guaranteed to be right. Biden has basically continued exactly what Trump was doing! But according to Biden, stopping people from China entering the country back in March was racist.
Disagree strongly. Yes, we've had many different viruses over the past 10-20 years (avian flu, swine flu, H1N1, etc.) but COVID has been a perfect storm in both its contagiousness as well as being just "un-deadly" enough to not run itself out before it catches steam. You know the best way to deal with a pandemic? Listen to the damn doctors and do what they say! They don't give 2 rips about politics when it comes to public health, they are trying to save lives. I don't think you can really compare swine flu to COVID because they aren't the same thing. Hopefully, we also learned some things from the mistakes that were made with the swine flu that should have helped guide us in dealing with COVID, but nobody listened when the recommendations were made.

You gotta let the China thing go. You keep bringing it up, and it's a misrepresentation at best, and regardless irrelevant at this point. Biden has done almost 180 degrees different from what Trump was doing. He's continuing to push masks (and wearing one himself), he's changed the agencies and the doctors/scientists that are leading us through this (and he's actually listening to them), and he has managed to get the vaccine rollout organized and delivered much better than was happening under Trump. I'll happily give Trump some credit for getting the vaccines developed, although I personally give a lot more credit to the scientific community because that's just what they do, as well as the pharmaceutical companies because making money is what they do; essentially, I think this would have happened even if "Warp Speed" never existed, but I think it helped reduce some of the normal red tape and provided funding, so I think he should get credit for that. Problem was, apparently no one ever had the thought that we needed an equally organized and multi-tiered approach to getting it in people's arms. It's taken 2 months to fix those problems, but I think we're finally almost there and the rollout should go much smoother from this point forward. Fingers crossed.
Cataholic wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:26 pm
If you are going to blame Trump, bring some actual facts, and recognize that multiple people added to this mess. Quite frankly, I think we were very lucky that Biden was not president when it started because he would have kissed the WHO asses and let people from all over the world bring the virus to our county. Look at the fiasco at the border right now. Thousands coming into this country with no social distancing, masks or even covid testing. Complete sh1t show!
I've stated multiple times that there are many people who are to blame for the mess we're in. First and foremost, I blame individuals. We all make decisions on how to act regardless of what the government tells us, and millions of people are acting like petulant, spoiled, selfish children right now. I don't care if there is a mask mandate or not, I wear one everywhere I go. And I will not patronize businesses who are not trying to enforce some kind of masking and distancing; on the flip side, I go out of my way to support businesses that are. I put a lot of blame on Trump for turning this whole fiasco into a political issue, and for turning the dial up to 11. I think Biden would have handled it completely differently. We'd still have plenty of problems, because COVID is kind of a perfect little bug for doing what it's doing, and I think we can see that the rest of the world is also having problems, so clearly there is no easy answer. But I don't think the U.S. would have near as many cases, or near the death rate, if it hadn't been so politicized and everyone just got on board with the protective measures from the get-go. The words and actions of a president are important, so saying it's no big deal, ridiculing your own self-appointed physicians, and acting the way he has from Day 1 is a huge part of why we're here.

Border issue is a goat show, but overstated. I'm a lot more worried about what's going on in the state of Texas than I am what's happening at the border. A few thousand (and I agree, I don't like how it's being handled) vs. millions of people with no social distancing, masks, vaccines (as of the weekend, I believe only 7% of the population in TX has been vaccinated), and many citizens of that state have money to travel around the rest of the country. I'd call Texas a far bigger sh*t show than the border fiasco.
You make some strong arguments and we agree on some issues, most notably that Trump probably gets re-elected without Covid and that the current situation at the border is a sh1t show. However, you really are allowing your dislike of Trump to influence the actual facts. Here are some examples.

H1N1 was a complete disaster under Biden - this was from the politico article quoted above:
“It is purely a fortuity that this isn’t one of the great mass casualty events in American history,” Ron Klain, who was Biden’s chief of staff at the time, said of H1N1 in 2019. “It had nothing to do with us doing anything right. It just had to do with luck. If anyone thinks that this can’t happen again, they don’t have to go back to 1918, they just have to go back to 2009, 2010 and imagine a virus with a different lethality, and you can just do the math on that.”
That was from Biden’s own chief of staff.

You claim Trump wouldn’t listen to the doctors. It was exactly one year ago when Dr Fauci said there is no reason to wear masks.



And then you claim that Trump turned up the political rhetoric up to 11. Talk about a one sided statement. There must thousands of comments from Democratic politicians turning this into a political quagmire. Just some of the names are Pelosi, AOC, Schumer, Cuomo, Schiff and the list goes on and on. And then add the tens of thousands of news and opinion pieces by the liberal media. There is a very compelling argument that this is so politically charged because the Democrats and media have turned it into an attack on Trump and Republicans.

China - I am baffled by your take on the China stuff. Biden called Trump xenophobic for banning flights from China. What is there to contest? Additionally, Joe has taken some strange takes on China related matters. The WHO has a history of protecting China in various issues. The WHO recently came out and said that the virus most likely never came from the Wuhan lab. Seriously? Does anybody actually believe this?

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/ ... -china-lab

Yet Biden rejoins the WHO on his first day in office.

https://apnews.com/article/us-who-suppo ... 30af236227

Trump and Vacines - People vocally said it would be impossible to have a vaccine before the end of 2020. That it would take a miracle and Trump was crazy to make such a statement. Yet Trump got it done. And even that first vacinne announcement was strangely not made until a week AFTER the election. You give him some credit, but then try to downplay it. The liberal media has been even worse.

You claim that Biden would have handled it differently. You are probably right. He would have let countries continue to travel to our country instead of banning travel. Isn’t that what he is doing at the border right now? And he has a years worth of data to tell him that is not the right decision.

Texas - The 7 day average for new cases in Texas is currently around 6,000. That is down from about 22,000 in mid January. Seems to be a pretty good trend. And if your vaccination rate is correct, it is not the vaccinations that are causing this trend. Please explain why you are so worried about Texas? Things seem to have improved dramatically.



ilovethecats
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Re: More Covid Data

Post by ilovethecats » Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:04 am

BozoneCat wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:52 pm
First and foremost, I blame individuals. We all make decisions on how to act regardless of what the government tells us, and millions of people are acting like petulant, spoiled, selfish children right now. I don't care if there is a mask mandate or not, I wear one everywhere I go. And I will not patronize businesses who are not trying to enforce some kind of masking and distancing; on the flip side, I go out of my way to support businesses that are.
I have asked before but has there been any research or surveys in regards to mask-wearing and its impact on the virus? Not whether or not masks work (they do) but rather if the spread of the virus is due to many people refusing to wear masks.

I just don't see how this can be the case. Literally every where I go people are wearing masks. Have been for 9 months now. From my perspective, mask-wearers seem to FAR exceed those that refuse to wear them. Almost all businesses still have signs up requiring masks. Schools still require masks. Bars and restaurants still require masks until you are seated, and anytime you are not seated. Where are all these people not wearing masks, and where is the proof that the spread of the virus was due to the few who weren't wearing masks and not just that the virus spread like all viruses spread?

I love the point you brought up above however. You are going to continue wearing masks as long as you deem necessary. Even if the health department ruled today that masks aren't necessary any longer, I would imagine many individuals would continue wearing them until they personally feel safe. That is EXACTLY how it should be! In fact, I think those people should wear TWO masks as Faucci said that two is better than one. And by all means, don't patronize ANY place you don't feel comfortable. That has always been a choice given to every person in the country. And by all means frequent places that you DO feel comfortable. This is very reasonable to me.

The statewide mask mandate was lifted a month ago. By a miracle, despite this, cases have fallen every week. And people are still choosing to wear masks. It's almost as if people are capable of making their own decisions they feel is in their best interest and for safety. If you followed any social media when the mandate was lifted you would have thought we were about to see mass deaths and hospitalizations. But somehow, some way, maybe by the grace of God alone; that did not happen.

For that I am very happy. \:D/



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catatac
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Re: More Covid Data

Post by catatac » Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:10 pm

ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:04 am
BozoneCat wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:52 pm
First and foremost, I blame individuals. We all make decisions on how to act regardless of what the government tells us, and millions of people are acting like petulant, spoiled, selfish children right now. I don't care if there is a mask mandate or not, I wear one everywhere I go. And I will not patronize businesses who are not trying to enforce some kind of masking and distancing; on the flip side, I go out of my way to support businesses that are.
I have asked before but has there been any research or surveys in regards to mask-wearing and its impact on the virus? Not whether or not masks work (they do) but rather if the spread of the virus is due to many people refusing to wear masks.

I just don't see how this can be the case. Literally every where I go people are wearing masks. Have been for 9 months now. From my perspective, mask-wearers seem to FAR exceed those that refuse to wear them. Almost all businesses still have signs up requiring masks. Schools still require masks. Bars and restaurants still require masks until you are seated, and anytime you are not seated. Where are all these people not wearing masks, and where is the proof that the spread of the virus was due to the few who weren't wearing masks and not just that the virus spread like all viruses spread?

I love the point you brought up above however. You are going to continue wearing masks as long as you deem necessary. Even if the health department ruled today that masks aren't necessary any longer, I would imagine many individuals would continue wearing them until they personally feel safe. That is EXACTLY how it should be! In fact, I think those people should wear TWO masks as Faucci said that two is better than one. And by all means, don't patronize ANY place you don't feel comfortable. That has always been a choice given to every person in the country. And by all means frequent places that you DO feel comfortable. This is very reasonable to me.

The statewide mask mandate was lifted a month ago. By a miracle, despite this, cases have fallen every week. And people are still choosing to wear masks. It's almost as if people are capable of making their own decisions they feel is in their best interest and for safety. If you followed any social media when the mandate was lifted you would have thought we were about to see mass deaths and hospitalizations. But somehow, some way, maybe by the grace of God alone; that did not happen.

For that I am very happy. \:D/
ILTC - have you yet been able to find one person that can answer your question about why we don't wear seasonal flu masks? One thing this pandemic as reinforced for us is that wearing a mask or two will absolutely help to prevent or diminish spread of any air born virus, including the flu. So let's say this COVID thing runs it's course in a year or two and is gone forever (Won't happen, but hypothetically). Are we as a society going to be required to wear masks, social distance, shut down businesses, limit capacity, etc... every flu season? I don't think the flu is going away any time soon and it has 100% been proven that taking these measures will in fact save peoples' lives that otherwise would have died from the flu. Anything?


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iaafan
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Re: More Covid Data

Post by iaafan » Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:28 pm

catatac wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:10 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:04 am
BozoneCat wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:52 pm
First and foremost, I blame individuals. We all make decisions on how to act regardless of what the government tells us, and millions of people are acting like petulant, spoiled, selfish children right now. I don't care if there is a mask mandate or not, I wear one everywhere I go. And I will not patronize businesses who are not trying to enforce some kind of masking and distancing; on the flip side, I go out of my way to support businesses that are.
I have asked before but has there been any research or surveys in regards to mask-wearing and its impact on the virus? Not whether or not masks work (they do) but rather if the spread of the virus is due to many people refusing to wear masks.

I just don't see how this can be the case. Literally every where I go people are wearing masks. Have been for 9 months now. From my perspective, mask-wearers seem to FAR exceed those that refuse to wear them. Almost all businesses still have signs up requiring masks. Schools still require masks. Bars and restaurants still require masks until you are seated, and anytime you are not seated. Where are all these people not wearing masks, and where is the proof that the spread of the virus was due to the few who weren't wearing masks and not just that the virus spread like all viruses spread?

I love the point you brought up above however. You are going to continue wearing masks as long as you deem necessary. Even if the health department ruled today that masks aren't necessary any longer, I would imagine many individuals would continue wearing them until they personally feel safe. That is EXACTLY how it should be! In fact, I think those people should wear TWO masks as Faucci said that two is better than one. And by all means, don't patronize ANY place you don't feel comfortable. That has always been a choice given to every person in the country. And by all means frequent places that you DO feel comfortable. This is very reasonable to me.

The statewide mask mandate was lifted a month ago. By a miracle, despite this, cases have fallen every week. And people are still choosing to wear masks. It's almost as if people are capable of making their own decisions they feel is in their best interest and for safety. If you followed any social media when the mandate was lifted you would have thought we were about to see mass deaths and hospitalizations. But somehow, some way, maybe by the grace of God alone; that did not happen.

For that I am very happy. \:D/
ILTC - have you yet been able to find one person that can answer your question about why we don't wear seasonal flu masks? One thing this pandemic as reinforced for us is that wearing a mask or two will absolutely help to prevent or diminish spread of any air born virus, including the flu. So let's say this COVID thing runs it's course in a year or two and is gone forever (Won't happen, but hypothetically). Are we as a society going to be required to wear masks, social distance, shut down businesses, limit capacity, etc... every flu season? I don't think the flu is going away any time soon and it has 100% been proven that taking these measures will in fact save peoples' lives that otherwise would have died from the flu. Anything?
Why would there be a requirement to wear a mask for something that we have a vaccine for? I think it's a great idea to wear a mask during flu season now that we've seen how much wearing one for Covid has reduced the flu, but I don't think there will be a requirement to wear a mask for either now a we have a vaccine for both. Not sure why you would think there will be as it doesn't follow anything we've done before.



iaafan
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Re: More Covid Data

Post by iaafan » Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:36 pm

ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:04 am
BozoneCat wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:52 pm
First and foremost, I blame individuals. We all make decisions on how to act regardless of what the government tells us, and millions of people are acting like petulant, spoiled, selfish children right now. I don't care if there is a mask mandate or not, I wear one everywhere I go. And I will not patronize businesses who are not trying to enforce some kind of masking and distancing; on the flip side, I go out of my way to support businesses that are.
I have asked before but has there been any research or surveys in regards to mask-wearing and its impact on the virus? Not whether or not masks work (they do) but rather if the spread of the virus is due to many people refusing to wear masks.

I just don't see how this can be the case. Literally every where I go people are wearing masks. Have been for 9 months now. From my perspective, mask-wearers seem to FAR exceed those that refuse to wear them. Almost all businesses still have signs up requiring masks. Schools still require masks. Bars and restaurants still require masks until you are seated, and anytime you are not seated. Where are all these people not wearing masks, and where is the proof that the spread of the virus was due to the few who weren't wearing masks and not just that the virus spread like all viruses spread?

I love the point you brought up above however. You are going to continue wearing masks as long as you deem necessary. Even if the health department ruled today that masks aren't necessary any longer, I would imagine many individuals would continue wearing them until they personally feel safe. That is EXACTLY how it should be! In fact, I think those people should wear TWO masks as Faucci said that two is better than one. And by all means, don't patronize ANY place you don't feel comfortable. That has always been a choice given to every person in the country. And by all means frequent places that you DO feel comfortable. This is very reasonable to me.

The statewide mask mandate was lifted a month ago. By a miracle, despite this, cases have fallen every week. And people are still choosing to wear masks. It's almost as if people are capable of making their own decisions they feel is in their best interest and for safety. If you followed any social media when the mandate was lifted you would have thought we were about to see mass deaths and hospitalizations. But somehow, some way, maybe by the grace of God alone; that did not happen.

For that I am very happy. \:D/
:lol: You're going to be appointed to Gianfarty's staff with that kind of talk. If nothing else he'll put in a good word with Moses for you.

Seriously though, do you think that if we had never imposed a mask requirement that it wouldn't have had any impact on Covid's spread? https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8

https://news.mit.edu/2020/masks-mandate ... eaths-0805

https://theconversation.com/face-masks- ... why-147912



ilovethecats
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Posts: 5061
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Re: More Covid Data

Post by ilovethecats » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:36 pm

iaafan wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:36 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:04 am
BozoneCat wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:52 pm
First and foremost, I blame individuals. We all make decisions on how to act regardless of what the government tells us, and millions of people are acting like petulant, spoiled, selfish children right now. I don't care if there is a mask mandate or not, I wear one everywhere I go. And I will not patronize businesses who are not trying to enforce some kind of masking and distancing; on the flip side, I go out of my way to support businesses that are.
I have asked before but has there been any research or surveys in regards to mask-wearing and its impact on the virus? Not whether or not masks work (they do) but rather if the spread of the virus is due to many people refusing to wear masks.

I just don't see how this can be the case. Literally every where I go people are wearing masks. Have been for 9 months now. From my perspective, mask-wearers seem to FAR exceed those that refuse to wear them. Almost all businesses still have signs up requiring masks. Schools still require masks. Bars and restaurants still require masks until you are seated, and anytime you are not seated. Where are all these people not wearing masks, and where is the proof that the spread of the virus was due to the few who weren't wearing masks and not just that the virus spread like all viruses spread?

I love the point you brought up above however. You are going to continue wearing masks as long as you deem necessary. Even if the health department ruled today that masks aren't necessary any longer, I would imagine many individuals would continue wearing them until they personally feel safe. That is EXACTLY how it should be! In fact, I think those people should wear TWO masks as Faucci said that two is better than one. And by all means, don't patronize ANY place you don't feel comfortable. That has always been a choice given to every person in the country. And by all means frequent places that you DO feel comfortable. This is very reasonable to me.

The statewide mask mandate was lifted a month ago. By a miracle, despite this, cases have fallen every week. And people are still choosing to wear masks. It's almost as if people are capable of making their own decisions they feel is in their best interest and for safety. If you followed any social media when the mandate was lifted you would have thought we were about to see mass deaths and hospitalizations. But somehow, some way, maybe by the grace of God alone; that did not happen.

For that I am very happy. \:D/
:lol: You're going to be appointed to Gianfarty's staff with that kind of talk. If nothing else he'll put in a good word with Moses for you.

Seriously though, do you think that if we had never imposed a mask requirement that it wouldn't have had any impact on Covid's spread? https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8

https://news.mit.edu/2020/masks-mandate ... eaths-0805

https://theconversation.com/face-masks- ... why-147912
I'm sure it helped. You'd have to point me to where I said it didn't.

I think my question is is simple, yet one that people are unable to answer.

We had this new virus. At first we were told no masks. Then we were told masks.

Mask mandates were then placed nationally. Virus spread like wildfire. (Not suggesting they spread BECAUSE of masks or that masks don't work.)

When the virus continued to spread, we were told it was because people weren't wearing masks. My eyes told me otherwise. Where is the proof that the virus continued to spread worse than it ever had AFTER the mask mandate because people weren't wearing them.

Fast forward to today. Cases continue going down. Many states including Montana begin lifting restrictions. Even right here in Montana the cases have continued to fall despite the mask mandate being lifted. I was under the impression without a national and state mandate cases would skyrocket. And maybe they will. But they haven't in our first month without them. This tells me that viruses are gonna virus. And it tells me that people are responsible enough to make their own decisions. :shock:



iaafan
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Posts: 6369
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Re: More Covid Data

Post by iaafan » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:50 pm

ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:36 pm
iaafan wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:36 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:04 am
BozoneCat wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:52 pm
First and foremost, I blame individuals. We all make decisions on how to act regardless of what the government tells us, and millions of people are acting like petulant, spoiled, selfish children right now. I don't care if there is a mask mandate or not, I wear one everywhere I go. And I will not patronize businesses who are not trying to enforce some kind of masking and distancing; on the flip side, I go out of my way to support businesses that are.
I have asked before but has there been any research or surveys in regards to mask-wearing and its impact on the virus? Not whether or not masks work (they do) but rather if the spread of the virus is due to many people refusing to wear masks.

I just don't see how this can be the case. Literally every where I go people are wearing masks. Have been for 9 months now. From my perspective, mask-wearers seem to FAR exceed those that refuse to wear them. Almost all businesses still have signs up requiring masks. Schools still require masks. Bars and restaurants still require masks until you are seated, and anytime you are not seated. Where are all these people not wearing masks, and where is the proof that the spread of the virus was due to the few who weren't wearing masks and not just that the virus spread like all viruses spread?

I love the point you brought up above however. You are going to continue wearing masks as long as you deem necessary. Even if the health department ruled today that masks aren't necessary any longer, I would imagine many individuals would continue wearing them until they personally feel safe. That is EXACTLY how it should be! In fact, I think those people should wear TWO masks as Faucci said that two is better than one. And by all means, don't patronize ANY place you don't feel comfortable. That has always been a choice given to every person in the country. And by all means frequent places that you DO feel comfortable. This is very reasonable to me.

The statewide mask mandate was lifted a month ago. By a miracle, despite this, cases have fallen every week. And people are still choosing to wear masks. It's almost as if people are capable of making their own decisions they feel is in their best interest and for safety. If you followed any social media when the mandate was lifted you would have thought we were about to see mass deaths and hospitalizations. But somehow, some way, maybe by the grace of God alone; that did not happen.

For that I am very happy. \:D/
:lol: You're going to be appointed to Gianfarty's staff with that kind of talk. If nothing else he'll put in a good word with Moses for you.

Seriously though, do you think that if we had never imposed a mask requirement that it wouldn't have had any impact on Covid's spread? https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8

https://news.mit.edu/2020/masks-mandate ... eaths-0805

https://theconversation.com/face-masks- ... why-147912
I'm sure it helped. You'd have to point me to where I said it didn't.

I think my question is is simple, yet one that people are unable to answer.

We had this new virus. At first we were told no masks. Then we were told masks.

Mask mandates were then placed nationally. Virus spread like wildfire. (Not suggesting they spread BECAUSE of masks or that masks don't work.)

When the virus continued to spread, we were told it was because people weren't wearing masks. My eyes told me otherwise. Where is the proof that the virus continued to spread worse than it ever had AFTER the mask mandate because people weren't wearing them.

Fast forward to today. Cases continue going down. Many states including Montana begin lifting restrictions. Even right here in Montana the cases have continued to fall despite the mask mandate being lifted. I was under the impression without a national and state mandate cases would skyrocket. And maybe they will. But they haven't in our first month without them. This tells me that viruses are gonna virus. And it tells me that people are responsible enough to make their own decisions. :shock:
Fauci, et al, said no masks because there were no masks. We were told masks when masks were available. Here's a more detailed explanation:
https://www.wired.com/story/how-masks-w ... must-have/

Viruses take a while to start spreading. It's exponential. Once it takes hold it spreads rapidly until you do something about. I think the spread was fairly predictable. Fauci had it pegged based on what he was seeing and predicted the recent surge that is now waning.

Anecdotal evidence isn't worth much in situations like this. I saw lots of people not wearing masks, but I don't know if that's what caused the surge. It was primarily due to the time of year (winter) and people attending family gatherings during Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years, etc. and going to other super-spreader events.

The cases are going down, because people aren't attending big family events and we're coming out of winter.

Nothing has or hasn't happened due to just one variable (masks, distancing, shutdowns, winter, superspreaders, etc.). Things aren't skyrocketing now for any one reason. They were never happening due to any single reason either.
Last edited by iaafan on Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.



ilovethecats
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Posts: 5061
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:12 pm

Re: More Covid Data

Post by ilovethecats » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:54 pm

iaafan wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:28 pm

Why would there be a requirement to wear a mask for something that we have a vaccine for?
Because despite the vaccine tens of thousand of people die of the flu every year?

And masks would save the lives of tens of thousands of people?

And because we're being told we may have to wear masks into 2022 despite the fact that we have a covid vaccine?

Just off the top of my head. But I care about saving lives. :wink:



iaafan
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Posts: 6369
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 12:44 pm

Re: More Covid Data

Post by iaafan » Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:13 pm

ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:54 pm
iaafan wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:28 pm

Why would there be a requirement to wear a mask for something that we have a vaccine for?
Because despite the vaccine tens of thousand of people die of the flu every year?

And masks would save the lives of tens of thousands of people?

And because we're being told we may have to wear masks into 2022 despite the fact that we have a covid vaccine?

Just off the top of my head. But I care about saving lives. :wink:
Tens of thousands of people of which most didn't get the shot and which isn't 600,000/year when wearing masks, etc.



iaafan
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Posts: 6369
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 12:44 pm

Re: More Covid Data

Post by iaafan » Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:16 pm

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... -to-decide

1. Can getting the flu vaccine give you the flu or make you sick?

Fact: The flu shot can't give you the flu.

It's not biologically possible to catch an illness from the inactivated vaccine, and even the weakened live virus in the nasal vaccine cannot cause the flu. Anyone who gets sick after the flu shot caught the bug either just before or after getting vaccinated. It only takes two to five days to incubate a flu virus but two weeks for the vaccine to start working, so if you catch the flu in the waiting room, you still could fall ill even though you got the vaccine that day. That said, some people may feel under the weather from side effects of the flu shot, such as a headache, nausea, low fever or similar symptoms. These are normal responses to the vaccine in some people because they are normal responses from an immune system fighting a pathogen.

2. Aren't deaths from the flu exaggerated?

Fact: Deaths from influenza range from a few thousand to tens of thousands every U.S. flu season.

The number of flu deaths varies wildly from one year to the next depending on the dominant strains (H3N2 is usually the deadliest). But the total U.S. deaths are always in the thousands, ranging from 3,349 deaths in 1986-87 to a high of 48,614 deaths in 2003-04, according to a 2010 study by the CDC. People usually die from complications of the flu — especially pneumonia — rather than the flu itself, but wouldn't have died if they hadn't caught the flu.

3. Don't flu vaccines contain dangerous ingredients, such as mercury, formaldehyde and antifreeze?

Fact: Flu shot ingredients do not pose a risk to most people.

Vaccines do not contain antifreeze. Formaldehyde is used during vaccine manufacturing to inactivate the virus so it cannot cause disease. Any trace amounts remaining in the final vaccine fall well below what naturally occurs in fruits and vegetables or the levels that the human body produces itself.

Single-dose vials of flu vaccine do not contain any mercury compounds. The larger, multidose vials contain a preservative called thimerosal, which breaks down into 49% ethylmercury and is used to prevent bacterial contamination of the vaccine container. Unlike the methylmercury found in fish that can build up in the body, ethylmercury is made of larger molecules that cannot enter the brain; they exit the body in about a week. Vaccines made with thimerosal have been extensively studied and are safe, but if you don't want it for whatever reason, request a single-dose vaccine.

Some people have allergies to some of the ingredients in flu vaccines, such as gelatin, thimerosal or antibiotics; if you think that might be the case for you, ask your physician which type of flu vaccine is right for you.

4. Should pregnant women avoid the flu shot?

Fact: Pregnant women are particularly advised to get the flu shot.

The flu vaccine is not only safe for pregnant mothers but is also especially recommended since pregnancy increases the risk of flu complications for the mom and the baby. From 2010-2018, pregnant women accounted for 24% to 34% of influenza-associated hospitalizations, though only 9% of women aged 15-44 are pregnant each year. Plus, the protection from maternal antibodies extends to the baby after birth. Hospitalizations are 40% lower among vaccinated pregnant women and 72% lower among their infants, from birth through age 6 months, compared with those who don't get vaccinated. Flu shots are also linked to a lower risk of miscarriage and stillbirth, likely in part because infections during pregnancy, including influenza, are linked to greater miscarriage risk. Flu vaccination is even associated with reduced risk of other birth complications, such as a preterm or underweight baby.

5. Don't pharmaceutical companies make a massive profit from flu vaccines?

Fact: Revenue from vaccines make up a tiny proportion of pharma profits­ and make it possible for companies to continue making the vaccines in the event of a pandemic.

Total revenue from influenza vaccines is estimated by the WHO to have been about $2.2 billion in 2018. But total pharmaceutical industry revenue was nearly $1.2 trillion – making flu vaccines only about 0.18% of total industry revenue. By comparison, just one drug, Humira, which is used to treat autoimmune conditions, accounted for $20 billion in 2018. Each of the 15 most profitable drugs in 2018 bring in more than double the amount from the entire flu vaccine market each year.

If pharmaceutical companies didn't make a profit off vaccines, they likely wouldn't manufacture them, resulting in thousands more deaths, health care analysts note. Keeping production going also ensures vaccines are available if a pandemic occurs. Meanwhile, influenza itself is quite expensive, costing the U.S. about $4.6 billion annually in direct medical costs and as much as $87 billion annually in all costs.

Lastly, Wiederman points out: Getting vaccinated also helps protects the family, friends and coworkers swirling around you each day — particularly people whose age or health conditions put them at higher risk for flu complications.

"I would think there's not a single person out there that doesn't have contact regularly with someone with risk factors," Wiederman says. The long list of people especially vulnerable to a bad case of flu includes toddlers and seniors, pregnant women and anyone with asthma or other chronic illness. "When we get vaccinated," he says, "we lessen the chances that they will get infected, too."



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