Concerns about socialism

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catatac
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Concerns about socialism

Post by catatac » Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:37 pm

Question mainly for the more vocal left leaning posters on here. I'm not interested in picking a fight or hearing any more about how terrible Trump is. I'm genuinely curious if others are concerned about the potential for democrats (now in full control) making policies and decisions that move the United States closer to a socialist state?


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Re: Concerns about socialism

Post by CatBlitz » Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:47 pm

How do you define "socialist state"?


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Re: Concerns about socialism

Post by catatac » Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:52 pm

CatBlitz wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:47 pm
How do you define "socialist state"?
I agree that can be a fuzzy term, and there was some posting about socialism versus democratic socialism... so I'll just use the actual definition of socialism below:

a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.


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Re: Concerns about socialism

Post by BozoneCat » Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:40 pm

I’ll go. No, I’m not afraid of that. This is not a socialist country, and I don’t fear that we will become so. I don’t want to pay any more in taxes than I already do, and I certainly don’t want to support lazy people with my own hard work. The amount these things already happens drives me nuts. I would actually like to see less government spending, all across the board. And no, I don’t think a Biden presidency will do that, but news flash - neither has Trump. Our spending continues to increase, our debt is beyond out of control, and it's on both parties for that. It just goes different places. Dem’s want to spend more on health care, education, clean energy, and social programs. Rep’s tend to want to spend money on military, big business, etc. Both sides spend too much, by a ton. Democrats have controlled the Presidency and both houses of Congress before, I believe as recently as 2010, and we haven’t devolved into anarchy and socialism yet. I don’t think that’s what the majority of people in this country want, and as such, I don’t believe our elected officials will take us there.


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Re: Concerns about socialism

Post by wbtfg » Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:31 pm

catatac wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:37 pm
Question mainly for the more vocal left leaning posters on here. I'm not interested in picking a fight or hearing any more about how terrible Trump is. I'm genuinely curious if others are concerned about the potential for democrats (now in full control) making policies and decisions that move the United States closer to a socialist state?
I imagine it will look a lot like 2010-2012



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Re: Concerns about socialism

Post by oedipuss » Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:16 pm

I think that America is experiencing a devolution much more than a revolution. The Republican Party has become completely nationalized and the Democratic Party is learning that the only way for their candidates to win is to do the same. Meaning both parties are going to be much more like parties in parliamentary countries than what the U.S. has ever experienced. What does that mean? It means you can only accomplish policy that keeps your most vulnerable members from losing - meaning you can't pass anything as a Democrat that will cost Joe Manchin or Jon Tester their jobs. On the flip side for Republicans it now means they can't stop policies that are extremely popular like infrastructure or stimulus checks and retake Congress. The old ways of being individuals who could vote for their values but then do the business of the country through negotiation and horse trading are over. Individuals aren't going to be able to win races anymore. Party identity and party popularity is going to drive our state and national politics for quite some time. So what does that lead to? Much, much more control of government at the very local level - as it is the only level that can accomplish any amount of addressing real life concerns. Expect city councils, school boards, and county commissioners to have much more power in the near future about almost everything solely based on the inability (or more the unwillingness) of the parties to yield power for policy. Is that a good thing or bad thing? I don't know - but it appears to be leading in this state to cities addressing climate change themselves, passenger rail service, internet infrastructure, affordable housing, mental health, homelessness, pre-K schooling, and substance abuse counseling and healthcare without expecting much guidance from higher levels of government. Maybe it will change - it could if a third party comes around that can be on equal footing as the other two. But otherwise, everybody is just going to vote for their team and root for them no matter what they do or (more likely) don't do.



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Re: Concerns about socialism

Post by 77matcat » Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:49 am

Lots of good discussion regarding the original post.

I would just add that suggesting the county is headed for socialism is as old as the Robber Barron’s (the 3/4 guys that held most of the country’s wealth 1870 to 1900) suggesting that moving to a 5 day work week, 8 hour work day and worker safety would move the country to socialism.

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Re: Concerns about socialism

Post by iaafan » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:26 am

Anyone making a claim that America is moving towards socialism either doesn't know what socialism is or is preying on the uninformed. Unfortunately the people doing this are convincing other people, that also don't what it is, that we're moving toward socialism. This is one of the reasons republicans are doing as well as they are in Florida. The Cuban population down there buys this rhetoric easily, not because they don't know what socialism is, but because it's used on them as a scare tactic.



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Re: Concerns about socialism

Post by CelticCat » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:48 am

I love how Joe Biden, a man many said hadn't accomplished anything in 40 whatever years as a politician, is now somehow going to change our entire system of government.


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Re: Concerns about socialism

Post by John K » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:59 am

I don't think anyone should waste a nanosecond of their time, worrying about the USA moving towards socialism. As several people have already mentioned, the "S" word has been used as a scare tactic by the far right, for almost as long as I can remember, going back the Reagan era. I posted in another thread, that I hoped Biden would resist pressure from the more progressive wing of the Democratic party, which will now feel emboldened after winning the two Georgia senate races, giving the Dems control of both houses. I also said I felt pretty confident that he would push back against them, because he has always been a moderate himself, and he seems to have chosen mostly moderates for his cabinet and other staff positions. I firmly believe that the overwhelming majority of Dems in Congress are also moderates, who wouldn't support an extreme left wing agenda from Biden, even if he did try to go down that path. People like AOC, Bernie Sanders, and Elizabeth Warren have been a very vocal minority during this election cycle, but I believe they are also a very small minority. Ever since the election, Biden has really been driving home the point that his two main goals are to get Covid under control, and to bring the country back together again. Divisiveness will only become even worse, if he turns too far to the left.
Last edited by John K on Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:01 am, edited 2 times in total.



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Re: Concerns about socialism

Post by RickRund » Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:00 am

CelticCat wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:48 am
I love how Joe Biden, a man many said hadn't accomplished anything in 40 whatever years as a politician, is now somehow going to change our entire system of government.
Not worried as much about joe as those behind the curtain...



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Re: Concerns about socialism

Post by iaafan » Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:07 am

I like and respect ya RickRund, but you gotta get a chuckle about how you posted right after (10:59, 11:00) JohnK said "...waste a nanosecond..."



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Re: Concerns about socialism

Post by BigBruceBaker » Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:11 pm

CelticCat wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:48 am
I love how Joe Biden, a man many said hadn't accomplished anything in 40 whatever years as a politician, is now somehow going to change our entire system of government.
Thanks for the laugh.


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Re: Concerns about socialism

Post by catatac » Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:23 pm

iaafan wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:26 am
Anyone making a claim that America is moving towards socialism either doesn't know what socialism is or is preying on the uninformed. Unfortunately the people doing this are convincing other people, that also don't what it is, that we're moving toward socialism. This is one of the reasons republicans are doing as well as they are in Florida. The Cuban population down there buys this rhetoric easily, not because they don't know what socialism is, but because it's used on them as a scare tactic.
Thanks for all the insights, some great points out there. For the record, I'm not that guy that thinks the sky is falling and we're in a direct path towards socialism (but I know some people who do :shock: ). However, I will say it makes me a bit concerned to hear some Dems saying to strike while the iron is hot and that right now is the time for "transformative change".


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Re: Concerns about socialism

Post by BigBruceBaker » Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:56 pm

catatac wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:23 pm
iaafan wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:26 am
Anyone making a claim that America is moving towards socialism either doesn't know what socialism is or is preying on the uninformed. Unfortunately the people doing this are convincing other people, that also don't what it is, that we're moving toward socialism. This is one of the reasons republicans are doing as well as they are in Florida. The Cuban population down there buys this rhetoric easily, not because they don't know what socialism is, but because it's used on them as a scare tactic.
Thanks for all the insights, some great points out there. For the record, I'm not that guy that thinks the sky is falling and we're in a direct path towards socialism (but I know some people who do :shock: ). However, I will say it makes me a bit concerned to hear some Dems saying to strike while the iron is hot and that right now is the time for "transformative change".
I hate hyperbole. What does transformative change mean?

Not directing this just as you, a general/overall question.


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Re: Concerns about socialism

Post by catatac » Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:28 pm

BigBruceBaker wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:56 pm
catatac wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:23 pm
iaafan wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:26 am
Anyone making a claim that America is moving towards socialism either doesn't know what socialism is or is preying on the uninformed. Unfortunately the people doing this are convincing other people, that also don't what it is, that we're moving toward socialism. This is one of the reasons republicans are doing as well as they are in Florida. The Cuban population down there buys this rhetoric easily, not because they don't know what socialism is, but because it's used on them as a scare tactic.
Thanks for all the insights, some great points out there. For the record, I'm not that guy that thinks the sky is falling and we're in a direct path towards socialism (but I know some people who do :shock: ). However, I will say it makes me a bit concerned to hear some Dems saying to strike while the iron is hot and that right now is the time for "transformative change".
I hate hyperbole. What does transformative change mean?

Not directing this just as you, a general/overall question.
In this context I was referring to, it meant a lot of things. Here are some excerpts, and a link to the article.

"Hello! It’s a new day! Who’s ready to PUSH?" Ocasio-Cortez said in an emoji-filled tweet on Wednesday. "Ready to PUSH for retroactive COVID relief? And to PUSH for student loan cancellation? For climate justice? Healthcare? Voting rights? Ending the death penalty? What policies do you most want to PUSH for?"


Pressley (Ayanna) also touted universal health care, housing, jobs, food and "economic justice" in a Wednesday tweet.

"Medicare for all. Housing for all. Jobs for all. Food for all. Economic justice for all. New year," she wrote.


Omar: This is our shot, we can go big or go home.

It’s time to organize, mobilize and push for transformative change.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/progre ... te-results


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Re: Concerns about socialism

Post by John K » Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:53 pm

Oh I know they're going to push hard for all, or at least many of those things, but i have to believe that Biden is pragmatic enough to push back on most of them, at least the most extreme things. If he veers too far to the left, it will almost ensure losing both houses back to the GOP in the 2022 mid-terms, and thus making it impossible for him to get anything done during the 2nd half of his term.



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Re: Concerns about socialism

Post by John K » Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:58 pm

Investors must not be too concerned about Biden pushing a socialist agenda, considering the Dow is up more than 1,500 points in the two months since the election. I thought the stock market was going to go in the tank, if Trump lost the election?



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Re: Concerns about socialism

Post by RickRund » Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:03 pm

catatac wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:28 pm
BigBruceBaker wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:56 pm
catatac wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:23 pm
iaafan wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:26 am
Anyone making a claim that America is moving towards socialism either doesn't know what socialism is or is preying on the uninformed. Unfortunately the people doing this are convincing other people, that also don't what it is, that we're moving toward socialism. This is one of the reasons republicans are doing as well as they are in Florida. The Cuban population down there buys this rhetoric easily, not because they don't know what socialism is, but because it's used on them as a scare tactic.
Thanks for all the insights, some great points out there. For the record, I'm not that guy that thinks the sky is falling and we're in a direct path towards socialism (but I know some people who do :shock: ). However, I will say it makes me a bit concerned to hear some Dems saying to strike while the iron is hot and that right now is the time for "transformative change".
I hate hyperbole. What does transformative change mean?

Not directing this just as you, a general/overall question.
In this context I was referring to, it meant a lot of things. Here are some excerpts, and a link to the article.

"Hello! It’s a new day! Who’s ready to PUSH?" Ocasio-Cortez said in an emoji-filled tweet on Wednesday. "Ready to PUSH for retroactive COVID relief? And to PUSH for student loan cancellation? For climate justice? Healthcare? Voting rights? Ending the death penalty? What policies do you most want to PUSH for?"


Pressley (Ayanna) also touted universal health care, housing, jobs, food and "economic justice" in a Wednesday tweet.

"Medicare for all. Housing for all. Jobs for all. Food for all. Economic justice for all. New year," she wrote.


Omar: This is our shot, we can go big or go home.

It’s time to organize, mobilize and push for transformative change.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/progre ... te-results
I know I always use the term, wish I could remember.... So with that being said I wish I could remember a news blip from earlier today where a congressman suggesting something about also a guaranteed survivable income. That is one idea that surely will not muster enough backing...



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Re: Concerns about socialism

Post by Cataholic » Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:45 pm

John K wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:53 pm
Oh I know they're going to push hard for all, or at least many of those things, but i have to believe that Biden is pragmatic enough to push back on most of them, at least the most extreme things. If he veers too far to the left, it will almost ensure losing both houses back to the GOP in the 2022 mid-terms, and thus making it impossible for him to get anything done during the 2nd half of his term.
You talk about all the people that mindlessly follow Trump despite his actions, but you are doing the exact same thing with Biden. Biden has already made decisions to advance these extreme liberal agendas. The first and most prevalent was choosing Kamala Harris as his Vice President. She has been recognized as the most liberal member of the Senate. More liberal than self proclaimed socialist Bernie Sanders.

https://www.newsweek.com/kamala-harris- ... ws-1524481

And what happens if Biden can't finish his term due to health issues? Kamala as president, House controlled by Democrats and Senate even... Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and two of her “Squad” allies were appointed Tuesday to the House oversight committee, giving the legislators a valuable perch to influence President-elect Joe Biden’s administration. New "Squad" member of congress Cori Bush actually wants to defund the Pentagon!

I hope you are right that Biden will not allow these extreme agendas to happen. I am more concerned that Biden will not be acting as president before his term ends.



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