Race Based Covid Relief

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BigBruceBaker
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Race Based Covid Relief

Post by BigBruceBaker » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:03 am

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/ore ... operations

Had never heard of this before this article.

Pretty strange way to provide Covid relief to so many struggling people/entities.

Maybe this should go under Tomcat's "something we can all agree on"


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Re: Race Based Covid Relief

Post by Cataholic » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:31 am

BigBruceBaker wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:03 am
https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/ore ... operations

Had never heard of this before this article.

Pretty strange way to provide Covid relief to so many struggling people/entities.

Maybe this should go under Tomcat's "something we can all agree on"
Pretty interesting case. The article doesn’t say, but how much of the federal coronavirus funds were allocated to this fund? We’re those funds allocated based on the percentage of black population in Oregon?



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Re: Race Based Covid Relief

Post by BigBruceBaker » Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:22 am

....bump.

I’m confused on the lack of responses. Is it a good idea to associate Covid relief dollars with the color of someone’s skin?


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Re: Race Based Covid Relief

Post by TomCat88 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:59 am

BigBruceBaker wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:22 am
....bump.

I’m confused on the lack of responses. Is it a good idea to associate Covid relief dollars with the color of someone’s skin?
No, not solely.


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Re: Race Based Covid Relief

Post by BigBruceBaker » Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:49 pm

TomCat88 wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:59 am
BigBruceBaker wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:22 am
....bump.

I’m confused on the lack of responses. Is it a good idea to associate Covid relief dollars with the color of someone’s skin?
No, not solely.
Doing anything based in ANY part on the color of ones skins is racism at its core.


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Re: Race Based Covid Relief

Post by Cataholic » Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:51 pm

BigBruceBaker wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:49 pm
TomCat88 wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:59 am
BigBruceBaker wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:22 am
....bump.

I’m confused on the lack of responses. Is it a good idea to associate Covid relief dollars with the color of someone’s skin?
No, not solely.
Doing anything based in ANY part on the color of ones skins is racism at its core.
There are some programs that are worthwhile and make sense. For example, I think requiring minorities to be interviewed for NFL coaching positions has a good intent. I am not sure about the execution of the program, but they clearly want to see more minorities get an opportunity. I think that is good.

However, I am confused as to why this Covid minority program was even started. Was there a problem with minorities getting an a appropriate distribution? And once again, was the allocation for this program determined by percentage of the black population in the area? Are all minorities eligible or just blacks?



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Re: Race Based Covid Relief

Post by BigBruceBaker » Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:43 pm

Cataholic wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:51 pm
BigBruceBaker wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:49 pm
TomCat88 wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:59 am
BigBruceBaker wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:22 am
....bump.

I’m confused on the lack of responses. Is it a good idea to associate Covid relief dollars with the color of someone’s skin?
No, not solely.
Doing anything based in ANY part on the color of ones skins is racism at its core.
There are some programs that are worthwhile and make sense. For example, I think requiring minorities to be interviewed for NFL coaching positions has a good intent. I am not sure about the execution of the program, but they clearly want to see more minorities get an opportunity. I think that is good.

However, I am confused as to why this Covid minority program was even started. Was there a problem with minorities getting an a appropriate distribution? And once again, was the allocation for this program determined by percentage of the black population in the area? Are all minorities eligible or just blacks?
My problem is intentions are nearly always good and pure in the beginning, I absolutely 100% want minority coaches to get hired. If they are the best fit for the job they deserve it. But intentions however good have a way of morphing into something much bigger and many times not at all what the original idea was for.

Doing anything BECAUSE of the color of their skin (which we can’t control, god gave it to us). I prefer judging people off their behaviors, talents etc. regardless of their skin color.

The moment the society decides skin color is something we need to judge people on is the moment things like this happen, where African Americans are given money based on their skin color and their location. This leaves out tons of minorities that need help, leaves out poor white people that can’t pay their bills etc. What makes the recipients different than the next? Just the color of their skin. It’s an absolute ass backwards way of thinking that is taking us backwards, not forwards.


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Re: Race Based Covid Relief

Post by Cataholic » Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:08 pm

BigBruceBaker wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:43 pm
Cataholic wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:51 pm
BigBruceBaker wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:49 pm
TomCat88 wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:59 am
BigBruceBaker wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:22 am
....bump.

I’m confused on the lack of responses. Is it a good idea to associate Covid relief dollars with the color of someone’s skin?
No, not solely.
Doing anything based in ANY part on the color of ones skins is racism at its core.
There are some programs that are worthwhile and make sense. For example, I think requiring minorities to be interviewed for NFL coaching positions has a good intent. I am not sure about the execution of the program, but they clearly want to see more minorities get an opportunity. I think that is good.

However, I am confused as to why this Covid minority program was even started. Was there a problem with minorities getting an a appropriate distribution? And once again, was the allocation for this program determined by percentage of the black population in the area? Are all minorities eligible or just blacks?
My problem is intentions are nearly always good and pure in the beginning, I absolutely 100% want minority coaches to get hired. If they are the best fit for the job they deserve it. But intentions however good have a way of morphing into something much bigger and many times not at all what the original idea was for.

Doing anything BECAUSE of the color of their skin (which we can’t control, god gave it to us). I prefer judging people off their behaviors, talents etc. regardless of their skin color.

The moment the society decides skin color is something we need to judge people on is the moment things like this happen, where African Americans are given money based on their skin color and their location. This leaves out tons of minorities that need help, leaves out poor white people that can’t pay their bills etc. What makes the recipients different than the next? Just the color of their skin. It’s an absolute ass backwards way of thinking that is taking us backwards, not forwards.
You make some great points that I can’t argue with. However I dont think we should stop such efforts, we just need to do a better job of managing those programs. In this instance, if there is a history of African Americans being ignored for these type of relief funds, maybe we need a program like this to ensure adequate funds get to appropriate parties. It should be noted though that I have not seen anything that says such a program was needed. I am concerned that it is just political pandering based on race.

I agree with your thoughts on how other races are being left out or excluded due to color. Such a difficult topic, but let’s hope that this program was based on more than race - and hopefully on need. If parties are being excluded only because of race, I think that is racism.



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Re: Race Based Covid Relief

Post by iaafan » Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:00 am

I think if Oregon would've opened this up to all minorities, not just blacks, that it would be okay. I have no problem in trying to support minority businesses or individuals that are subject to systemic racism. Not sure how they did this though as I haven't read up on it enough yet. Not sure what kind of formula they used to come up with this or if it actually does involve other minorities.

On it's face it doesn't look good, but I'm not sure we're getting the whole story.

There are all kinds of minorities and women that are qualified for many positions, but they don't get them because of their skin color or sex. https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/race-a ... 8/home.htm



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Re: Race Based Covid Relief

Post by BigBruceBaker » Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:49 pm

iaafan wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:00 am
I think if Oregon would've opened this up to all minorities, not just blacks, that it would be okay. I have no problem in trying to support minority businesses or individuals that are subject to systemic racism. Not sure how they did this though as I haven't read up on it enough yet. Not sure what kind of formula they used to come up with this or if it actually does involve other minorities.

On it's face it doesn't look good, but I'm not sure we're getting the whole story.

There are all kinds of minorities and women that are qualified for many positions, but they don't get them because of their skin color or sex. https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/race-a ... 8/home.htm
I disagree with your first line item, treating someone differently because of the color of their skin is flat wrong. A business or person is no more or less qualified to get aid because of the color or the owners or employees skin. This is exactly the opposite of what equality is all about.

I go back to my original point, intentions are honorable and VERY GOOD to make sure minorities and women have the jobs they are qualified for. However programs start morphing and spinning out of control. The intention is to make sure everyone has a fair shake (which I 1000% agree on), but morphs into preferential treatment BECAUSE of your skin color or gender.

When we start calling out peoples differences and rewarding people based on nothing else than skin color/gender we are setting equality back.

Its definitely frustrating for all involved, everyone that is qualified, hard working, smart etc. deserves the opportunity to shine in whatever profession they have (or to start their own businesses). I don't have all the answers, but i definitely know giving money to people based on their skin color isn't it, because we can't control that, nor can we control our gender.

If lower income areas need resources like education/food/opportunities, lets go in and do it. But it's to the entire area, not just the residents of whatever color someone deems the only recipient.


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Re: Race Based Covid Relief

Post by iaafan » Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:05 pm

BigBruceBaker wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:49 pm
iaafan wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:00 am
I think if Oregon would've opened this up to all minorities, not just blacks, that it would be okay. I have no problem in trying to support minority businesses or individuals that are subject to systemic racism. Not sure how they did this though as I haven't read up on it enough yet. Not sure what kind of formula they used to come up with this or if it actually does involve other minorities.

On it's face it doesn't look good, but I'm not sure we're getting the whole story.

There are all kinds of minorities and women that are qualified for many positions, but they don't get them because of their skin color or sex. https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/race-a ... 8/home.htm
I disagree with your first line item, treating someone differently because of the color of their skin is flat wrong. A business or person is no more or less qualified to get aid because of the color or the owners or employees skin. This is exactly the opposite of what equality is all about.

I go back to my original point, intentions are honorable and VERY GOOD to make sure minorities and women have the jobs they are qualified for. However programs start morphing and spinning out of control. The intention is to make sure everyone has a fair shake (which I 1000% agree on), but morphs into preferential treatment BECAUSE of your skin color or gender.

When we start calling out peoples differences and rewarding people based on nothing else than skin color/gender we are setting equality back.

Its definitely frustrating for all involved, everyone that is qualified, hard working, smart etc. deserves the opportunity to shine in whatever profession they have (or to start their own businesses). I don't have all the answers, but i definitely know giving money to people based on their skin color isn't it, because we can't control that, nor can we control our gender.

If lower income areas need resources like education/food/opportunities, lets go in and do it. But it's to the entire area, not just the residents of whatever color someone deems the only recipient.
I disagree. I think we owe it to ourselves to create opportunities for minorities in this country due to the fact that they've been and are being systemically abused for so many years. This country loses out when people that should rise to the top and be utilized are not. A healthy, well utilized workforce only makes the country better. It's hard to prove yourself if the coach doesn't put you in the game or give you reps in practice.

Ideally, it'd be great if everyone got jobs and opportunities based solely on merit alone. That doesn't happen in America. People get jobs because they're white, belong to the right church and the right political party, or know the right person...that's just the way it is. Look at how many colleges give opportunities to large donors and alumni. It's everywhere. It's difficult to fix and I'm not saying Oregon is going about it the right way. I don't think anyone is asking to be given a job based on their skin color, I think they're asking for the same opportunity to get the job as anyone else. It'd be ideal if that was the case, but it isn't. Yes, it is frustrating. I don't know how to fix that and apparently no one does, because it's been going on for ages.



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Re: Race Based Covid Relief

Post by BigBruceBaker » Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:26 pm

iaafan wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:05 pm
BigBruceBaker wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:49 pm
iaafan wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:00 am
I think if Oregon would've opened this up to all minorities, not just blacks, that it would be okay. I have no problem in trying to support minority businesses or individuals that are subject to systemic racism. Not sure how they did this though as I haven't read up on it enough yet. Not sure what kind of formula they used to come up with this or if it actually does involve other minorities.

On it's face it doesn't look good, but I'm not sure we're getting the whole story.

There are all kinds of minorities and women that are qualified for many positions, but they don't get them because of their skin color or sex. https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/race-a ... 8/home.htm
I disagree with your first line item, treating someone differently because of the color of their skin is flat wrong. A business or person is no more or less qualified to get aid because of the color or the owners or employees skin. This is exactly the opposite of what equality is all about.

I go back to my original point, intentions are honorable and VERY GOOD to make sure minorities and women have the jobs they are qualified for. However programs start morphing and spinning out of control. The intention is to make sure everyone has a fair shake (which I 1000% agree on), but morphs into preferential treatment BECAUSE of your skin color or gender.

When we start calling out peoples differences and rewarding people based on nothing else than skin color/gender we are setting equality back.

Its definitely frustrating for all involved, everyone that is qualified, hard working, smart etc. deserves the opportunity to shine in whatever profession they have (or to start their own businesses). I don't have all the answers, but i definitely know giving money to people based on their skin color isn't it, because we can't control that, nor can we control our gender.

If lower income areas need resources like education/food/opportunities, lets go in and do it. But it's to the entire area, not just the residents of whatever color someone deems the only recipient.
I disagree. I think we owe it to ourselves to create opportunities for minorities in this country due to the fact that they've been and are being systemically abused for so many years. This country loses out when people that should rise to the top and be utilized are not. A healthy, well utilized workforce only makes the country better. It's hard to prove yourself if the coach doesn't put you in the game or give you reps in practice.

Ideally, it'd be great if everyone got jobs and opportunities based solely on merit alone. That doesn't happen in America. People get jobs because they're white, belong to the right church and the right political party, or know the right person...that's just the way it is. Look at how many colleges give opportunities to large donors and alumni. It's everywhere. It's difficult to fix and I'm not saying Oregon is going about it the right way. I don't think anyone is asking to be given a job based on their skin color, I think they're asking for the same opportunity to get the job as anyone else. It'd be ideal if that was the case, but it isn't. Yes, it is frustrating. I don't know how to fix that and apparently no one does, because it's been going on for ages.
So if I'm asian and don't go to church I can't get a job? I know a CEO of a large company would disagree with you on that. Also with how many minorities and women have succeeded (their road could have been much harder than their co-workers, i don't know since i don't know them) are they the statistical anomalies? Did they go to the right church and had the right political party so they got lucky? Or did they just work their asses off to get where they wanted to be? Again I don't know, I haven't talked to them.

Privilege exists across all races - rich (and especially the ultra rich) get away with literal murder, and absolutely use their wealth to benefit themselves and their families. I can think of a lot of politicians, actors, sports figures and business magnates that do exactly this. They are all of different races. From middle eastern to white to black to asian. Every nationality is represented within the term "privilege" and the bs that many of them (the ultra rich) peddle.

I always try to be practical and level headed when i think of these huge issues. Let's say I have a vice president of sales job, all 4 applicants that made it to the final round have excellent work history, education and gave fantastic interview and all will be (we think) valued members of the team. One is a white woman, Two is a black man, Three is a asian woman, Four is a native american man. Who do you give the job to? I'd tell you my answer is the one that I believe fits better within the organization and the job duties - and I could care less what their gender or skin color is. The problem with identifying and judging based of skin color for any reason leads down the road to, who is more underprivileged and its a constant flip flop. Are native americans more underprivileged for this decade? Should be provide them more opportunities for them over asians? Its a game that their is no win to. Someone will always have a perception of underprivilege.


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Re: Race Based Covid Relief

Post by TomCat88 » Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:07 pm

BigBruceBaker wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:26 pm
iaafan wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:05 pm
BigBruceBaker wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:49 pm
iaafan wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:00 am
I think if Oregon would've opened this up to all minorities, not just blacks, that it would be okay. I have no problem in trying to support minority businesses or individuals that are subject to systemic racism. Not sure how they did this though as I haven't read up on it enough yet. Not sure what kind of formula they used to come up with this or if it actually does involve other minorities.

On it's face it doesn't look good, but I'm not sure we're getting the whole story.

There are all kinds of minorities and women that are qualified for many positions, but they don't get them because of their skin color or sex. https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/race-a ... 8/home.htm
I disagree with your first line item, treating someone differently because of the color of their skin is flat wrong. A business or person is no more or less qualified to get aid because of the color or the owners or employees skin. This is exactly the opposite of what equality is all about.

I go back to my original point, intentions are honorable and VERY GOOD to make sure minorities and women have the jobs they are qualified for. However programs start morphing and spinning out of control. The intention is to make sure everyone has a fair shake (which I 1000% agree on), but morphs into preferential treatment BECAUSE of your skin color or gender.

When we start calling out peoples differences and rewarding people based on nothing else than skin color/gender we are setting equality back.

Its definitely frustrating for all involved, everyone that is qualified, hard working, smart etc. deserves the opportunity to shine in whatever profession they have (or to start their own businesses). I don't have all the answers, but i definitely know giving money to people based on their skin color isn't it, because we can't control that, nor can we control our gender.

If lower income areas need resources like education/food/opportunities, lets go in and do it. But it's to the entire area, not just the residents of whatever color someone deems the only recipient.
I disagree. I think we owe it to ourselves to create opportunities for minorities in this country due to the fact that they've been and are being systemically abused for so many years. This country loses out when people that should rise to the top and be utilized are not. A healthy, well utilized workforce only makes the country better. It's hard to prove yourself if the coach doesn't put you in the game or give you reps in practice.

Ideally, it'd be great if everyone got jobs and opportunities based solely on merit alone. That doesn't happen in America. People get jobs because they're white, belong to the right church and the right political party, or know the right person...that's just the way it is. Look at how many colleges give opportunities to large donors and alumni. It's everywhere. It's difficult to fix and I'm not saying Oregon is going about it the right way. I don't think anyone is asking to be given a job based on their skin color, I think they're asking for the same opportunity to get the job as anyone else. It'd be ideal if that was the case, but it isn't. Yes, it is frustrating. I don't know how to fix that and apparently no one does, because it's been going on for ages.
So if I'm asian and don't go to church I can't get a job? I know a CEO of a large company would disagree with you on that. Also with how many minorities and women have succeeded (their road could have been much harder than their co-workers, i don't know since i don't know them) are they the statistical anomalies? Did they go to the right church and had the right political party so they got lucky? Or did they just work their asses off to get where they wanted to be? Again I don't know, I haven't talked to them.

Privilege exists across all races - rich (and especially the ultra rich) get away with literal murder, and absolutely use their wealth to benefit themselves and their families. I can think of a lot of politicians, actors, sports figures and business magnates that do exactly this. They are all of different races. From middle eastern to white to black to asian. Every nationality is represented within the term "privilege" and the bs that many of them (the ultra rich) peddle.

I always try to be practical and level headed when i think of these huge issues. Let's say I have a vice president of sales job, all 4 applicants that made it to the final round have excellent work history, education and gave fantastic interview and all will be (we think) valued members of the team. One is a white woman, Two is a black man, Three is a asian woman, Four is a native american man. Who do you give the job to? I'd tell you my answer is the one that I believe fits better within the organization and the job duties - and I could care less what their gender or skin color is. The problem with identifying and judging based of skin color for any reason leads down the road to, who is more underprivileged and its a constant flip flop. Are native americans more underprivileged for this decade? Should be provide them more opportunities for them over asians? Its a game that their is no win to. Someone will always have a perception of underprivilege.
I don't think it's that you *can't* get a job because you're a minority, it's just that you're less likely due to discrimination. The numbers definitely back up the fact that job discrimination is real in America and it hurts our minority/female population more than the white, male population.

Yes, some minorities and women do succeed and are privileged. But there's a disproportionate number of successful white males vs. the minority and female populations. Many white males get hired because they're white males, many minorities and women don't get hired because they're minorities and women.

That's good that you don't discriminate. I like your example of the four people putting in for the job. Good on ya! However, it doesn't always work that way unfortunately and minorities and females get the wrong end of the stick in most (not all) cases.


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Re: Race Based Covid Relief

Post by TomCat88 » Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:11 pm

Off the subject a little bit...The Kansas City Star just apologized today for decades of racist coverage.


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Re: Race Based Covid Relief

Post by Cataholic » Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:50 pm

I am a minority and have mixed feelings on the subject. I believe the intentions of such programs are good, but I don’t think they really address the core problem. Employees want to hire the most qualified person and there should be nothing wrong with that. Unfortunately, many minorities come from the inner city and many aren’t given the same tools to succeed as a white kid going to school in the suburbs. We all recall the saying, “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime”. Are we really solving any problems by establishing minority hiring quotas? Wouldn’t we be better addessing the core problem of giving minorities a better education which gives them the opportunity to compete on a level playing field?

I have never experienced a problem getting a job due to race. Quite frankly, the most educated, experienced or best fit will get the job. The best performer usually gets the promotion.

These programs have such a slippery slope on application. For example, should NBA rosters have the most qualified players or should some white guys be mandatory? Why should race be a factor when hiring an accountant? Shouldn’t it be the most qualified person regardless of race? If not enough minorities are getting hired, let’s figure out why they are not as qualified and address it. I think the problem starts with educational opportunies for lower incomes demographics.



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