Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

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allcat
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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by allcat » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:10 am

wbtfg wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:14 am
allcat wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:10 am
iaafan wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:18 pm
allcat wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:59 pm
iaafan wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:53 am
allcat wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:40 am
These police departments are mostly in Democrat hands. They pass the laws , they hire the Chiefs. When it goes wrong they blame what they created.
So since the democrats have screwed it all up, then you agree that it should be reformed. Or do you think that police departments would be better at serving and protecting if republicans are in charge?
What I do think is that without all of family and society destruction under the Dems, there would be more opportunities for all, thus reducing the need for the heavy hand. I also think that community policing would be more effective.
I don't see the family and society destruction by Dems. Neither does this guy: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/27/opin ... amily.html
That article was definitely written to the educated people that he says don't have the problem. I like that he actually argues to reflect Trump, while voicing the opposite. Trump is bringing back the very jobs he wants. However it is happening family values in urban settings are eroding and which party has fostered that? You might not see it because some liberal bloviate writes a long winded dissertation, but I do. Once again I'm glad he supports Trump's end game.
Family Values...I think that’s the title of the new Stormy Daniels movie. ;)
Can you name others? [-X [-X


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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by hokeyfine » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:33 am




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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by ilovethecats » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:37 am

It sounds like a crazy idea to me. But part of me just wants to see a city try it and see what happens! I just can’t help but feel like it would be a mess if it went down like some want to see.



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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by 91catAlum » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:55 am

This isn't exactly Defunding the police. They still have a full-size police department.
The city, home to a population about 17% of Minneapolis' size, dissolved its police department in 2012 and replaced it with an entirely new one after corruption rendered the existing agency unfixable.


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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by RickRund » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:24 am

BLM and/or other groups really need to go where there is a serious problem... It is like they don't care.




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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by hokeyfine » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:56 am

91catAlum wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:55 am
This isn't exactly Defunding the police. They still have a full-size police department.
The city, home to a population about 17% of Minneapolis' size, dissolved its police department in 2012 and replaced it with an entirely new one after corruption rendered the existing agency unfixable.
i think this is exactly(in part) what the purpose of defunding law enforcement is. it doesn't mean no police force.



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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by 91catAlum » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:31 am

hokeyfine wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:56 am
91catAlum wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:55 am
This isn't exactly Defunding the police. They still have a full-size police department.
The city, home to a population about 17% of Minneapolis' size, dissolved its police department in 2012 and replaced it with an entirely new one after corruption rendered the existing agency unfixable.
i think this is exactly(in part) what the purpose of defunding law enforcement is. it doesn't mean no police force.
Depends on who you talk to I guess. I've heard several different definitions. Does it make sense to "defund" the police, then create another police dept and fund them? I guess I don't understand how that's going to end police brutality.

And the democratic leadership sure isn't liking the Defund movement, either. If it wasn't a crazy idea, then why did Biden come out against it yesterday, and why are other democratic leaders trying to shut it down too?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... uxbndlbing


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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by iaafan » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:06 pm

91catAlum wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:31 am
hokeyfine wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:56 am
91catAlum wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:55 am
This isn't exactly Defunding the police. They still have a full-size police department.
The city, home to a population about 17% of Minneapolis' size, dissolved its police department in 2012 and replaced it with an entirely new one after corruption rendered the existing agency unfixable.
i think this is exactly(in part) what the purpose of defunding law enforcement is. it doesn't mean no police force.
Depends on who you talk to I guess. I've heard several different definitions. Does it make sense to "defund" the police, then create another police dept and fund them? I guess I don't understand how that's going to end police brutality.

And the democratic leadership sure isn't liking the Defund movement, either. If it wasn't a crazy idea, then why did Biden come out against it yesterday, and why are other democratic leaders trying to shut it down too?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... uxbndlbing
Camden, NJ disbanded its PD and it seems to have worked. Not near the size of Mpls, but notable. Other smaller towns have done the same with good results.

https://www.governing.com/topics/public ... tment.html

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/us/disba ... index.html



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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by Cataholic » Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:58 pm

The Butcher wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:44 am
Who here hasn't known a police officer that is a real a**? An investigator where I live now acts above the law all the time. He pulls s*** that would get anyone one of us a ticket, but the badge lets him do it. Even more to the issue; other police officers and their union don't intervene. That isn't how it is supposed to work, but it happens all the time. Now imagine if you are a minority in a low-income housing area. Obviously it is much worse than were most of us white guys live. Now having no police force is idiotic, but that isn't the point that is trying to be made. The point is accountability and what is best for all our communities. Everyone should want to see that except the bad cops.
I read you post and I ask how can a police officer get away with this? My thought is “bad management”. If you have a good manager/leader of that police force that says that action is unacceptable, those bad actors will eventually get removed. It all starts at the top.



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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by 91catAlum » Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:29 pm

iaafan wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:06 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:31 am
hokeyfine wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:56 am
91catAlum wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:55 am
This isn't exactly Defunding the police. They still have a full-size police department.
The city, home to a population about 17% of Minneapolis' size, dissolved its police department in 2012 and replaced it with an entirely new one after corruption rendered the existing agency unfixable.
i think this is exactly(in part) what the purpose of defunding law enforcement is. it doesn't mean no police force.
Depends on who you talk to I guess. I've heard several different definitions. Does it make sense to "defund" the police, then create another police dept and fund them? I guess I don't understand how that's going to end police brutality.

And the democratic leadership sure isn't liking the Defund movement, either. If it wasn't a crazy idea, then why did Biden come out against it yesterday, and why are other democratic leaders trying to shut it down too?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... uxbndlbing
Camden, NJ disbanded its PD and it seems to have worked. Not near the size of Mpls, but notable. Other smaller towns have done the same with good results.

https://www.governing.com/topics/public ... tment.html

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/us/disba ... index.html
Apparently you decided to skip over Hokey's link, because its the exact same article as your 2nd one. A few posts ago, which I guess you didn't read, I took a couple quotes from the article and responded to them.
Again - the article states that Camden, NJ disbanded its police department and THEN CREATED A NEW ONE that did the same exact work, except they hired more minorities, and they made an effort to make friends with the residents in their district. (which is great, but I don't see how that will prevent excessive use of force within a police department from ever occurring again.)
I'll paste the quote again, maybe you'll read it this time:
The city, home to a population about 17% of Minneapolis' size, dissolved its police department in 2012 and replaced it with an entirely new one after corruption rendered the existing agency unfixable.
Another interesting quote from that story:
...the new department also hired over 100 officers who previously served the dissolved Camden Police Department
They hired back 100 officers from the "disbanded" police department, to work in their brand new police department...

Also would love to hear your thoughts on why Biden and democratic leaders have come out against the Defund movement. I posted a link earlier but I'm sure you didn't read it. So you'll have to look it up yourself if you dont believe me.


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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by iaafan » Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:43 pm

91catAlum wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:29 pm
iaafan wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:06 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:31 am
hokeyfine wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:56 am
91catAlum wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:55 am
This isn't exactly Defunding the police. They still have a full-size police department.
The city, home to a population about 17% of Minneapolis' size, dissolved its police department in 2012 and replaced it with an entirely new one after corruption rendered the existing agency unfixable.
i think this is exactly(in part) what the purpose of defunding law enforcement is. it doesn't mean no police force.
Depends on who you talk to I guess. I've heard several different definitions. Does it make sense to "defund" the police, then create another police dept and fund them? I guess I don't understand how that's going to end police brutality.

And the democratic leadership sure isn't liking the Defund movement, either. If it wasn't a crazy idea, then why did Biden come out against it yesterday, and why are other democratic leaders trying to shut it down too?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... uxbndlbing
Camden, NJ disbanded its PD and it seems to have worked. Not near the size of Mpls, but notable. Other smaller towns have done the same with good results.

https://www.governing.com/topics/public ... tment.html

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/us/disba ... index.html
Apparently you decided to skip over Hokey's link, because its the exact same article as your 2nd one. A few posts ago, which I guess you didn't read, I took a couple quotes from the article and responded to them.
Again - the article states that Camden, NJ disbanded its police department and THEN CREATED A NEW ONE that did the same exact work, except they hired more minorities, and they made an effort to make friends with the residents in their district. (which is great, but I don't see how that will prevent excessive use of force within a police department from ever occurring again.)
I'll paste the quote again, maybe you'll read it this time:
The city, home to a population about 17% of Minneapolis' size, dissolved its police department in 2012 and replaced it with an entirely new one after corruption rendered the existing agency unfixable.
Another interesting quote from that story:
...the new department also hired over 100 officers who previously served the dissolved Camden Police Department
They hired back 100 officers from the "disbanded" police department, to work in their brand new police department...

Also would love to hear your thoughts on why Biden and democratic leaders have come out against the Defund movement. I posted a link earlier but I'm sure you didn't read it. So you'll have to look it up yourself if you dont believe me.
I did read hokey's link and your comments, but couldn't follow them and didn't understand what was being driven at. My bad.

I had mentioned earlier that this isn't the first time disbanding a police force, so I thought I'd follow that up with this link and it didn't jump out at me that it was the same link as hokey's. My point for this was to show that a PD has been disbanded and the result, regardless of how it was arrived at, was successful.

Biden is probably doing that to play it safe, but the reality is it isn't something that he has much control over. The municipalities are going to do what the want. Probably realizes that Trump will use it in a way that is detrimental to his chances of being elected. I did read that Biden is anti-defund somewhere, but not sure if it was your link. He's a moderate democrat. As were Obama and Clinton. Dems have gotten away from what they once were, which is probably a separate discussion.



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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by technoCat » Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:09 am

Here are my thoughts:

1. Should there be some reform in the police system? Yes, I believe that police unions should be either dissolved or have their power limited greatly(BTW who is the union party again? :wink: ). We also need to figure out why internal affairs is not doing their job of taking bad cops out of the system. Another point is that requirements to be a cop should be increased. Why are they not physically tested annually or even more often? If you cannot physically handle yourself in an arrest situation, you will panic and bad things will happen. You cannot ban use of chokeholds and armbars and tasers etc if cops are physically unable to defend themselves. But to get better candidates that are better trained, taking money away from them is the last thing we should do.

2. Crime will go down if police presence is decreased: Yes, there have been cases where statistics go down with less cop intervention but is that because there is less or less was reported. Nobody rats on the mob when they own a neighborhood. Something like 70% of black people do not believe there should be less cops in the neighborhoods, they actually want the cops there more. So stop acting like you are speaking for the whole black community because a bunch of loud mouths get a loudspeaker and say they hate cops and want them out.
https://www.breitbart.com/crime/2020/06 ... 65-oppose/

3. Is systemic racism real? I waver back and forth on this because I genuinely believe that every person in America is allowed the chance to make something of their life if they make good decisions. I do not believe the police force or hospitals or the voting system is setup directly to keeps them down. There are no rules cast in stone that directly say to discriminate based on skin color. Are their bad apples that make independent decisions to do so? Absolutely but that does not make it systematic. Lets talk about education. Everyone clamors that black kids are stuck in bad schools because they don't get enough funding. Well Baltimore schools received a ton of funding and a huge percentage of their high schoolers can't read. Why is that? Most of Baltimore's government is black and its all democrat. So I'm not sure how you explain the system is holding them down. The two points that make me pause are A) welfare and B) the media. Welfare has made in nearly impossible for many minorities to change their situation because if they start making more money they lose their benefits and would actually go backward. Of course this affects white poor people so its really more systemic classism than racism. The media tells young black people all-day everyday that there is a white boogeyman out there that is coming to get you and you will NEVER amount to anything because he won't let you. When you have it drilled into your head everyday that you are a victim and nothing you ever do will change that based on the amount of melanin in your skin, I can totally see why you are angry and lashing out. Especially when that same media is telling you over and over that your cause is righteous and the violence committed in your name is acceptable.

4. Can you reduce police and replace with something else? Absolutely but it will take time. I know that people in Minneapolis have mentioned taking the money and funding social work and programs to help the downtrodden. On the surface, no one will argue that sounds good. Will they have the patience to do it correctly. Right now everyone wants immediate change because they are emotional and that is never a good recipe for implementing wide-reaching changes. It would take years to start to change the actual culture, can they wait that long. How do they avoid the problems that other social programs in other cities face? Underfunding, crushing bureaucracy, indifference, BAD PEOPLE, poor training and so many others. Let me ask a serious question, does everyone/anyone truly believe that the party that has been in control of almost all major cities where this so called systemic racism is so prevalent, for half a century or more, is capable of fixing it overnight? I know Trump does a lot of stupid things and needs to be taken to task for them but when I see constant blame on him coming from career politicians that have had 40 years to change the system, that rings a little hollow for me.

5. Can we have a real conversation about any of this? The progressives keep saying that they want to unite everyone and give equality but continue time and again to label and segregate people based on whatever characteristic is deemed "important" at the time. Then they proceed to tell everyone that doesn't have that characteristic to "shut up" or "get educated" or "you don't get to have an opinion". Hmmm sounds like you are trying to do exactly what you accuse your opponents of doing... If you really want change, it will take cooperation from both sides. You can't tell one side to sit down and shut up because of perceived sins that person is not guilty of or because they don't have direct knowledge of your "oppression". The best solutions are found when people of multiple backgrounds are allowed to give input. As for conservatives, we need to be willing to give change a chance and not give into the anger of being constantly attacked by a small minority of very loud extremists. We need to recognize and point out hypocrisy coming from our side, even when its uncomfortable. There are horrible people in positions of power on both sides and they are the ones we should be condemning, not each other.


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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by technoCat » Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:15 am

Dangit, I knew I missed one.

6) Should police be held to a higher standard than citizens? Yes, I believe so. If you make a choice to put on that badge, you need to know that you represent Law and Order and should conduct yourself as such. That said, the current narrative by the media sickens me. They show 10 minutes of police beating on people and leave out the fact that they have been put through 5 days of 14 hour shifts of having people insult them and throw projectiles at them. Not to mention years of every decision they make being put under the microscope and being told they are all racists for trying to protect their communities. Every time there is an incident, they have their spineless elected leaders throw them under the bus. They should be held to a higher standard but there still has to be a standard kept for those they deal with as well.


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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by Cataholic » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:49 pm

technoCat wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:09 am
Here are my thoughts:

1. Should there be some reform in the police system? Yes, I believe that police unions should be either dissolved or have their power limited greatly(BTW who is the union party again? :wink: ). We also need to figure out why internal affairs is not doing their job of taking bad cops out of the system. Another point is that requirements to be a cop should be increased. Why are they not physically tested annually or even more often? If you cannot physically handle yourself in an arrest situation, you will panic and bad things will happen. You cannot ban use of chokeholds and armbars and tasers etc if cops are physically unable to defend themselves. But to get better candidates that are better trained, taking money away from them is the last thing we should do.

2. Crime will go down if police presence is decreased: Yes, there have been cases where statistics go down with less cop intervention but is that because there is less or less was reported. Nobody rats on the mob when they own a neighborhood. Something like 70% of black people do not believe there should be less cops in the neighborhoods, they actually want the cops there more. So stop acting like you are speaking for the whole black community because a bunch of loud mouths get a loudspeaker and say they hate cops and want them out.
https://www.breitbart.com/crime/2020/06 ... 65-oppose/

3. Is systemic racism real? I waver back and forth on this because I genuinely believe that every person in America is allowed the chance to make something of their life if they make good decisions. I do not believe the police force or hospitals or the voting system is setup directly to keeps them down. There are no rules cast in stone that directly say to discriminate based on skin color. Are their bad apples that make independent decisions to do so? Absolutely but that does not make it systematic. Lets talk about education. Everyone clamors that black kids are stuck in bad schools because they don't get enough funding. Well Baltimore schools received a ton of funding and a huge percentage of their high schoolers can't read. Why is that? Most of Baltimore's government is black and its all democrat. So I'm not sure how you explain the system is holding them down. The two points that make me pause are A) welfare and B) the media. Welfare has made in nearly impossible for many minorities to change their situation because if they start making more money they lose their benefits and would actually go backward. Of course this affects white poor people so its really more systemic classism than racism. The media tells young black people all-day everyday that there is a white boogeyman out there that is coming to get you and you will NEVER amount to anything because he won't let you. When you have it drilled into your head everyday that you are a victim and nothing you ever do will change that based on the amount of melanin in your skin, I can totally see why you are angry and lashing out. Especially when that same media is telling you over and over that your cause is righteous and the violence committed in your name is acceptable.

4. Can you reduce police and replace with something else? Absolutely but it will take time. I know that people in Minneapolis have mentioned taking the money and funding social work and programs to help the downtrodden. On the surface, no one will argue that sounds good. Will they have the patience to do it correctly. Right now everyone wants immediate change because they are emotional and that is never a good recipe for implementing wide-reaching changes. It would take years to start to change the actual culture, can they wait that long. How do they avoid the problems that other social programs in other cities face? Underfunding, crushing bureaucracy, indifference, BAD PEOPLE, poor training and so many others. Let me ask a serious question, does everyone/anyone truly believe that the party that has been in control of almost all major cities where this so called systemic racism is so prevalent, for half a century or more, is capable of fixing it overnight? I know Trump does a lot of stupid things and needs to be taken to task for them but when I see constant blame on him coming from career politicians that have had 40 years to change the system, that rings a little hollow for me.

5. Can we have a real conversation about any of this? The progressives keep saying that they want to unite everyone and give equality but continue time and again to label and segregate people based on whatever characteristic is deemed "important" at the time. Then they proceed to tell everyone that doesn't have that characteristic to "shut up" or "get educated" or "you don't get to have an opinion". Hmmm sounds like you are trying to do exactly what you accuse your opponents of doing... If you really want change, it will take cooperation from both sides. You can't tell one side to sit down and shut up because of perceived sins that person is not guilty of or because they don't have direct knowledge of your "oppression". The best solutions are found when people of multiple backgrounds are allowed to give input. As for conservatives, we need to be willing to give change a chance and not give into the anger of being constantly attacked by a small minority of very loud extremists. We need to recognize and point out hypocrisy coming from our side, even when its uncomfortable. There are horrible people in positions of power on both sides and they are the ones we should be condemning, not each other.
Great commentary. I would add onto point 3 regarding education. If you are willing to eliminate police unions and overhaul the police, we should also overhaul education and eliminate tenure. Many schools are failing due to poor teachers. We already see bad teachers in our public school systems in Montana and nothing can be done with them due to tenure. In any other job, if you don’t perform, you are let go. Teaching is so important and teachers/principals/admin must all be held accountable.



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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by ilovethecats » Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:05 pm

Cataholic wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:49 pm

Great commentary. I would add onto point 3 regarding education. If you are willing to eliminate police unions and overhaul the police, we should also overhaul education and eliminate tenure. Many schools are failing due to poor teachers. We already see bad teachers in our public school systems in Montana and nothing can be done with them due to tenure. In any other job, if you don’t perform, you are let go. Teaching is so important and teachers/principals/admin must all be held accountable.
I agree. I think education as a whole needs to get the respect it deserves. I think teachers need to be accountable for sure. I think they need to be supervised more often. But most importantly, they need to be paid WAY more.

The problem with letting "bad" teachers go is that we already have a huge shortage of teachers. This is mainly due to the fact that is a very difficult job to do great, one with long hours and tiny budgets. And a job where you literally would make more money tending bar working less hours.

I don't believe schools are failing because of bad teachers. Schools are failing because we fail the schools. We don't even pretend to spend money on education. Inner cities are even worse. Then we pretend we're shocked when kids from poor districts with horrible schools turn to a life of drugs and crime. Just doesn't make sense.



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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by technoCat » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:05 pm

ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:05 pm
Cataholic wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:49 pm

Great commentary. I would add onto point 3 regarding education. If you are willing to eliminate police unions and overhaul the police, we should also overhaul education and eliminate tenure. Many schools are failing due to poor teachers. We already see bad teachers in our public school systems in Montana and nothing can be done with them due to tenure. In any other job, if you don’t perform, you are let go. Teaching is so important and teachers/principals/admin must all be held accountable.
I agree. I think education as a whole needs to get the respect it deserves. I think teachers need to be accountable for sure. I think they need to be supervised more often. But most importantly, they need to be paid WAY more.

The problem with letting "bad" teachers go is that we already have a huge shortage of teachers. This is mainly due to the fact that is a very difficult job to do great, one with long hours and tiny budgets. And a job where you literally would make more money tending bar working less hours.

I don't believe schools are failing because of bad teachers. Schools are failing because we fail the schools. We don't even pretend to spend money on education. Inner cities are even worse. Then we pretend we're shocked when kids from poor districts with horrible schools turn to a life of drugs and crime. Just doesn't make sense.
Yes, I totally meant to mention school reform and also Healthcare reform but got to jumping back and forth. Reform is always needed, nothing is perfect, I disagree with extremist narratives that the whole system is rotten and we need to tear it all down because "they" could do it better. We have just thrown money at some schools with no real measurable positive results so that has to go hand in hand with these reforms. If we could ever get the government to give legitimate effort to balancing the budget and cutting the wasteful bureaucracy, that would go a long way. And yes I believe that includes trimming the defense budget and for the US to stop trying to police the world BY THEMSELVES. To bad the politicians are to busy shifting blame and running for their next election to ever follow through. #termlimits


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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by ilovethecats » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:13 pm

technoCat wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:05 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:05 pm
Cataholic wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:49 pm

Great commentary. I would add onto point 3 regarding education. If you are willing to eliminate police unions and overhaul the police, we should also overhaul education and eliminate tenure. Many schools are failing due to poor teachers. We already see bad teachers in our public school systems in Montana and nothing can be done with them due to tenure. In any other job, if you don’t perform, you are let go. Teaching is so important and teachers/principals/admin must all be held accountable.
I agree. I think education as a whole needs to get the respect it deserves. I think teachers need to be accountable for sure. I think they need to be supervised more often. But most importantly, they need to be paid WAY more.

The problem with letting "bad" teachers go is that we already have a huge shortage of teachers. This is mainly due to the fact that is a very difficult job to do great, one with long hours and tiny budgets. And a job where you literally would make more money tending bar working less hours.

I don't believe schools are failing because of bad teachers. Schools are failing because we fail the schools. We don't even pretend to spend money on education. Inner cities are even worse. Then we pretend we're shocked when kids from poor districts with horrible schools turn to a life of drugs and crime. Just doesn't make sense.
Yes, I totally meant to mention school reform and also Healthcare reform but got to jumping back and forth. Reform is always needed, nothing is perfect, I disagree with extremist narratives that the whole system is rotten and we need to tear it all down because "they" could do it better. We have just thrown money at some schools with no real measurable positive results so that has to go hand in hand with these reforms. If we could ever get the government to give legitimate effort to balancing the budget and cutting the wasteful bureaucracy, that would go a long way. And yes I believe that includes trimming the defense budget and for the US to stop trying to police the world BY THEMSELVES. To bad the politicians are to busy shifting blame and running for their next election to ever follow through. #termlimits
Agree completely. Great points



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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by 91catAlum » Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:17 pm

technoCat wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:09 am
Here are my thoughts:

1. Should there be some reform in the police system? Yes, I believe that police unions should be either dissolved or have their power limited greatly(BTW who is the union party again? :wink: ). We also need to figure out why internal affairs is not doing their job of taking bad cops out of the system. Another point is that requirements to be a cop should be increased. Why are they not physically tested annually or even more often? If you cannot physically handle yourself in an arrest situation, you will panic and bad things will happen. You cannot ban use of chokeholds and armbars and tasers etc if cops are physically unable to defend themselves. But to get better candidates that are better trained, taking money away from them is the last thing we should do.

2. Crime will go down if police presence is decreased: Yes, there have been cases where statistics go down with less cop intervention but is that because there is less or less was reported. Nobody rats on the mob when they own a neighborhood. Something like 70% of black people do not believe there should be less cops in the neighborhoods, they actually want the cops there more. So stop acting like you are speaking for the whole black community because a bunch of loud mouths get a loudspeaker and say they hate cops and want them out.
https://www.breitbart.com/crime/2020/06 ... 65-oppose/

3. Is systemic racism real? I waver back and forth on this because I genuinely believe that every person in America is allowed the chance to make something of their life if they make good decisions. I do not believe the police force or hospitals or the voting system is setup directly to keeps them down. There are no rules cast in stone that directly say to discriminate based on skin color. Are their bad apples that make independent decisions to do so? Absolutely but that does not make it systematic. Lets talk about education. Everyone clamors that black kids are stuck in bad schools because they don't get enough funding. Well Baltimore schools received a ton of funding and a huge percentage of their high schoolers can't read. Why is that? Most of Baltimore's government is black and its all democrat. So I'm not sure how you explain the system is holding them down. The two points that make me pause are A) welfare and B) the media. Welfare has made in nearly impossible for many minorities to change their situation because if they start making more money they lose their benefits and would actually go backward. Of course this affects white poor people so its really more systemic classism than racism. The media tells young black people all-day everyday that there is a white boogeyman out there that is coming to get you and you will NEVER amount to anything because he won't let you. When you have it drilled into your head everyday that you are a victim and nothing you ever do will change that based on the amount of melanin in your skin, I can totally see why you are angry and lashing out. Especially when that same media is telling you over and over that your cause is righteous and the violence committed in your name is acceptable.

4. Can you reduce police and replace with something else? Absolutely but it will take time. I know that people in Minneapolis have mentioned taking the money and funding social work and programs to help the downtrodden. On the surface, no one will argue that sounds good. Will they have the patience to do it correctly. Right now everyone wants immediate change because they are emotional and that is never a good recipe for implementing wide-reaching changes. It would take years to start to change the actual culture, can they wait that long. How do they avoid the problems that other social programs in other cities face? Underfunding, crushing bureaucracy, indifference, BAD PEOPLE, poor training and so many others. Let me ask a serious question, does everyone/anyone truly believe that the party that has been in control of almost all major cities where this so called systemic racism is so prevalent, for half a century or more, is capable of fixing it overnight? I know Trump does a lot of stupid things and needs to be taken to task for them but when I see constant blame on him coming from career politicians that have had 40 years to change the system, that rings a little hollow for me.

5. Can we have a real conversation about any of this? The progressives keep saying that they want to unite everyone and give equality but continue time and again to label and segregate people based on whatever characteristic is deemed "important" at the time. Then they proceed to tell everyone that doesn't have that characteristic to "shut up" or "get educated" or "you don't get to have an opinion". Hmmm sounds like you are trying to do exactly what you accuse your opponents of doing... If you really want change, it will take cooperation from both sides. You can't tell one side to sit down and shut up because of perceived sins that person is not guilty of or because they don't have direct knowledge of your "oppression". The best solutions are found when people of multiple backgrounds are allowed to give input. As for conservatives, we need to be willing to give change a chance and not give into the anger of being constantly attacked by a small minority of very loud extremists. We need to recognize and point out hypocrisy coming from our side, even when its uncomfortable. There are horrible people in positions of power on both sides and they are the ones we should be condemning, not each other.
Fantastic post, so many great points!


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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by codecat » Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:08 am

RickRund wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:52 pm
Great post - so few remember that Black Lives matter is Obama's pet remake of the Black Panthers and their purpose has always been to take down American Law Enforcement. They are simply doing it under the "social Justice" umbrella now (which of course is all about social control).


Socialism - the financial model historically used to control the masses! It has noting to do with
freedom, and seriously erodes the primary constitutional freedom of free enterprise.

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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by The Butcher » Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:57 am

codecat wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:08 am
RickRund wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:52 pm
Great post - so few remember that Black Lives matter is Obama's pet remake of the Black Panthers and their purpose has always been to take down American Law Enforcement. They are simply doing it under the "social Justice" umbrella now (which of course is all about social control).
1 out of 1,000 black men and boys will be killed by a police officer. That is pretty scary.



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