Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by TomCat88 » Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:08 pm

RickRund wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:32 pm
Cataholic wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:03 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:37 pm
TomCat88 wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:27 am
91catAlum wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:52 am
Imagine the 2nd amendment was hamstrung or even completely abolished.
Then imagine the Police were defunded, or completely disbanded as Democratic congresswoman Ilhan Omar called for yesterday.

What would our country look like if we had no public service group to enforce our laws?

This might be the most idiotic idea I've ever heard from the left.
Do you think police departments as they currently exist are doing a good job of serving and protecting the public? Conceptually I think everyone, including AOC and Omar, like the idea of having a governmental unit that polices society, but a lot of people/voters have had it with the current system and are going to be looking for change. I’m in that group. The police, while I admire them for many things, in their current state are obviously archaic and out of touch. Something has gone completely haywire and I think that happened long ago.

I don’t have the answers, but I believe now is the time (As many white male leaders are saying) to listen to minorities, because they’re ones IMO who are going to lead the country out of this mess. They have a perspective that mostly unexposed white males from Montana have nearly no clue about. I really don’t want to hear much from white male politicians.
Generally, yes I do think police do a good job. I refuse to let a very small minority of power- hungry bad cops define the entire police force for me.

Remember when 19 radical Muslims flew planes into the WTC and democrats were so quick to tell everyone that these people didn't represent Muslims and we shouldn't blame Islam for a few bad apples? Why isn't that same treatment given to the police force?

Are there problems to fix in the Police? Yes there are, and I'm fully on board with that.
Should we defund the whole thing, like Omar, Bernie Sanders, the mayor of LA, etc, want to do? Hell no.
I agree with your post. And the thought to defund police is one of the DUMBEST things the Dems have ever proposed. When crime is up, what do you do? You get more police to enforce the laws. You don’t disband them.

The police are not perfect, but let’s work on solving those problems before even contemplating defunding! There are clearly some bad actors in the police force and they need to be removed. The guy who assaulted George Floyd had 14+ complaints of excessive force and he remained on patrol. That is a travesty of the system.

What we really need is good local police leadership. Look at the chief of police in Flint, MI. It should not be an elected position. It should be a hired position based on experience, education, etc. The leader of the organization must implement steps and training at every level to prevent another George Floyd incident. This requires great leadership of an organization, not defunding...
And wasn't a former presidential candidate named klobachar once a prosecutor and she let that officer slide?
Yes and Richard Painter has been all over her for it.


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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by TomCat88 » Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:10 pm



Perhaps there’s a logical reason for this. It’ll be interesting to see.


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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by TomCat88 » Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:26 pm

91catAlum wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:03 pm
TomCat88 wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:27 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:14 pm
TomCat88 wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:29 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:24 pm
TomCat88 wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:05 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:37 pm
TomCat88 wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:55 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:37 pm
TomCat88 wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:27 am


Do you think police departments as they currently exist are doing a good job of serving and protecting the public? Conceptually I think everyone, including AOC and Omar, like the idea of having a governmental unit that polices society, but a lot of people/voters have had it with the current system and are going to be looking for change. I’m in that group. The police, while I admire them for many things, in their current state are obviously archaic and out of touch. Something has gone completely haywire and I think that happened long ago.

I don’t have the answers, but I believe now is the time (As many white male leaders are saying) to listen to minorities, because they’re ones IMO who are going to lead the country out of this mess. They have a perspective that mostly unexposed white males from Montana have nearly no clue about. I really don’t want to hear much from white male politicians.
Generally, yes I do think police do a good job. I refuse to let a very small minority of power- hungry bad cops define the entire police force for me.

Remember when 19 radical Muslims flew planes into the WTC and democrats were so quick to tell everyone that these people didn't represent Muslims and we shouldn't blame Islam for a few bad apples? Why isn't that same treatment given to the police force?

Are there problems to fix in the Police? Yes there are, and I'm fully on board with that.
Should we defund the whole thing, like Omar, Bernie Sanders, the mayor of LA, etc, want to do? Hell no.
That’s not a very good analogy. Those were radicalized Islamic religious fundamentalists. A subset of that religion, just like many religions have. The police are an improperly trained Governmental institution that is apparently in need of a major overhaul.

Defunding it and replacing it with something else seems logical to me. Again, though, I’m not really sure what needs to be done. I’ll leave that to the people that experience it first hand. Not Mitch McConnell or Nancy Pelosi.

I know quite a few minorities that vote republican and all of them are sick of the police. They were before the Floyd case.
I don't think the analogy is that far off. You are casting a very broad generalization on the entire police force saying they are improperly trained. I'm not familiar enough with police training but if it's inadequate or incorrect, then let's change that. That's a great place to start. But reducing or eliminating funding isn't gonna get that done.

I understand people are just very upset still, and maybe overreacting a bit. But that's no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.
I’m not going to try to decide what a new police force should look like until I listen carefully to those who have been the most mistreated by it.

If they decide the training the police have received is proper, I’ll gladly change my tune. I’m certainly not going to take your or any middle to upper class white males word for it. To us the cops don’t seem too bad, because they treat us fairly. I include myself in that group and I think our input is overstated. That would be like having upper-middle class white males making decisions about female health issues.

I’ll stay in my lane and advise others of my ilk to do the same.
That's fine, and I'll stay in the "reform but continue funding the police" lane until I hear a better solution.

Until then, I still want to be able to call 911 when I need to, and have the police show up to help me or my family.
I’d rather call 911 and have a form of a police force that I’m assured will help anyone, not just me, answer.
So you are in favor of disbanding the police immediately? Or do you want to keep them around and continue funding them until someone comes up with a better alternative?
Probably defunding certain police departments. I don’t think it’s necessary at this time to defund, for instance, the Helena PD. But, like I said, I’m in favor of listening to those with complaints first and letting that guide the process. I’d like to see PDs provide equal service and protection regardless of skin color.
I believe in the vast, vast majority of cases, the police do provide equal service regardless of skin color. It's possible I'm wrong but the only evidence I've seen to the contrary is anecdotal.

I'm very curious to see how Biden responds to the Defund The Police movement. The far left is going to put old Joe in some very difficult spots. If he gets on board with too many far left policies, it could cost him the moderate independent vote, and thus the election.
My experience is the same as yours, but let’s face it we live in Montana, and in my case, I’m white, so my experience is very sheltered. I have no idea what it’s like to be a minority and dealing with police. Listening to Jaharie Martin the other day is about as close as I get to knowing.

Defund the police is a city-by-city decision and it can mean many different things in each city that elects to do so. If nothing else the threat of defunding sends a strong message. Maybe that’ll be old Joe’s spin. Personally, I hadn’t heard about it until seeing this thread. Fascinating reading up on it. Thanks for posting.


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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by TomCat88 » Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:31 pm

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0211-5

Study shows that cutting back on proactive policing reduces crime.


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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by RickRund » Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:40 pm

I can see the conversation now when someone walks into "the new law enforcement office" and ask for a CC permit..... Glad we have Open Carry here in Idaho.



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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by RickRund » Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:44 pm

91catAlum wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:24 pm
TomCat88 wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:05 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:37 pm
TomCat88 wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:55 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:37 pm
TomCat88 wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:27 am
91catAlum wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:52 am
Imagine the 2nd amendment was hamstrung or even completely abolished.
Then imagine the Police were defunded, or completely disbanded as Democratic congresswoman Ilhan Omar called for yesterday.

What would our country look like if we had no public service group to enforce our laws?

This might be the most idiotic idea I've ever heard from the left.
Do you think police departments as they currently exist are doing a good job of serving and protecting the public? Conceptually I think everyone, including AOC and Omar, like the idea of having a governmental unit that polices society, but a lot of people/voters have had it with the current system and are going to be looking for change. I’m in that group. The police, while I admire them for many things, in their current state are obviously archaic and out of touch. Something has gone completely haywire and I think that happened long ago.

I don’t have the answers, but I believe now is the time (As many white male leaders are saying) to listen to minorities, because they’re ones IMO who are going to lead the country out of this mess. They have a perspective that mostly unexposed white males from Montana have nearly no clue about. I really don’t want to hear much from white male politicians.
Generally, yes I do think police do a good job. I refuse to let a very small minority of power- hungry bad cops define the entire police force for me.

Remember when 19 radical Muslims flew planes into the WTC and democrats were so quick to tell everyone that these people didn't represent Muslims and we shouldn't blame Islam for a few bad apples? Why isn't that same treatment given to the police force?

Are there problems to fix in the Police? Yes there are, and I'm fully on board with that.
Should we defund the whole thing, like Omar, Bernie Sanders, the mayor of LA, etc, want to do? Hell no.
That’s not a very good analogy. Those were radicalized Islamic religious fundamentalists. A subset of that religion, just like many religions have. The police are an improperly trained Governmental institution that is apparently in need of a major overhaul.

Defunding it and replacing it with something else seems logical to me. Again, though, I’m not really sure what needs to be done. I’ll leave that to the people that experience it first hand. Not Mitch McConnell or Nancy Pelosi.

I know quite a few minorities that vote republican and all of them are sick of the police. They were before the Floyd case.
I don't think the analogy is that far off. You are casting a very broad generalization on the entire police force saying they are improperly trained. I'm not familiar enough with police training but if it's inadequate or incorrect, then let's change that. That's a great place to start. But reducing or eliminating funding isn't gonna get that done.

I understand people are just very upset still, and maybe overreacting a bit. But that's no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.
I’m not going to try to decide what a new police force should look like until I listen carefully to those who have been the most mistreated by it.

If they decide the training the police have received is proper, I’ll gladly change my tune. I’m certainly not going to take your or any middle to upper class white males word for it. To us the cops don’t seem too bad, because they treat us fairly. I include myself in that group and I think our input is overstated. That would be like having upper-middle class white males making decisions about female health issues.

I’ll stay in my lane and advise others of my ilk to do the same.
That's fine, and I'll stay in the "reform but continue funding the police" lane until I hear a better solution.

Until then, I still want to be able to call 911 when I need to, and have the police show up to help me or my family.
How long is the response time for the LEO to show up? Not good numbers there if you are in danger.



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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by 77matcat » Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:32 pm

Correct me if I’m wrong, but police DeptS are funded locally and therefore controlled by local government, right. If a local government believes they have a better way to provide safety for their citizens they are welcome to do so. I’m sure no one would do so without meaningful due diligence.

It’s kind of like draining the swamp, like getting rid of the pandemic response team, right. Only with serious thought and deliberation.



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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by 91catAlum » Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:59 am

77matcat wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:32 pm
Correct me if I’m wrong, but police DeptS are funded locally and therefore controlled by local government, right. If a local government believes they have a better way to provide safety for their citizens they are welcome to do so. I’m sure no one would do so without meaningful due diligence.

It’s kind of like draining the swamp, like getting rid of the pandemic response team, right. Only with serious thought and deliberation.
There must be a certain amount of federal funding, because last week Bernie Sanders said he wanted to remove federal funding of police. I'm gonna assume he knows what he's talking about since he's been in the senate since the dawn of time... but I honestly do not know.

Also, the Defund The Police movement does not offer an alternative. It simply calls for the removal of the police. If they have a reasonable alternative I'd definitely be interested to hear it.


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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by 77matcat » Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:28 am

I’m guessing the Defund movement is only half of the story created by the emotion of the current events. Pretty sure no reasonable group of people would suggest there be no replacement or alternative.

The discussion re this topic should be interesting.



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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by allcat » Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:40 am

These police departments are mostly in Democrat hands. They pass the laws , they hire the Chiefs. When it goes wrong they blame what they created.


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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by iaafan » Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:50 am

91catAlum wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:59 am
77matcat wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:32 pm
Correct me if I’m wrong, but police DeptS are funded locally and therefore controlled by local government, right. If a local government believes they have a better way to provide safety for their citizens they are welcome to do so. I’m sure no one would do so without meaningful due diligence.

It’s kind of like draining the swamp, like getting rid of the pandemic response team, right. Only with serious thought and deliberation.
There must be a certain amount of federal funding, because last week Bernie Sanders said he wanted to remove federal funding of police. I'm gonna assume he knows what he's talking about since he's been in the senate since the dawn of time... but I honestly do not know.

Also, the Defund The Police movement does not offer an alternative. It simply calls for the removal of the police. If they have a reasonable alternative I'd definitely be interested to hear it.
If you think that defunding simply calls for the removal of police, then you aren't following this very closely and probably shouldn't be weighing in on it considering how serious a topic it is. Talk of defunding has been around for several years, so this isn't something someone pulled out of the clear blue sky.

I see you were saying that bad cops are very rare or something to that effect. A poll from 2000 (a little dated) had 84% of police saying they've seen fellow officers use excessive force and 22% said they've seen it on a regular basis. Those aren't good numbers. It would be interesting to see a poll today to see if that's still the case.

There is a federal grant program, but there's not a direct appropriation of federal funds to police departments. Most funding comes from local government taxes. Pulling that grant program would not force a police dept. to disband. Sanders wants to make it unavailable to departments that violate Civil Rights laws, so it's a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.



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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by iaafan » Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:53 am

allcat wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:40 am
These police departments are mostly in Democrat hands. They pass the laws , they hire the Chiefs. When it goes wrong they blame what they created.
So since the democrats have screwed it all up, then you agree that it should be reformed. Or do you think that police departments would be better at serving and protecting if republicans are in charge?



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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by BigBruceBaker » Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:32 am

What should a police department look like? What should its function be?

When your house is being robbed and you call 911 who should answer and what should their response be?

When you see a drunk driver swerving all over the road and endangering lives who do you call?

When your friend was raped outside a bar, who do you call?

When you have a mentally unstable person in your store that is threatening violence to other, or themselves, who do you call?


Defunding a police department does absolutely nothing except to shift the burden to other agencies. This most likely will be put onto the county which will in turn lead to a mass hiring of deputies to be able to actively patrol, doing nothing to "fix" the problem.

Should we have a mental health department? Should we have a violent crimes department? Should we have a DUI department? How do I know who to call when I need someone? How do the 911 people know which agency should be the right one to go on the call? What if a normal situation turns violent, should the patrol stop and wait for the violent crimes department?

This doesn't fix a system that people are labeling "broken", it displaces and creates more bureaucracy.

Anyone that thinks defunding and removal of a police department, please provide clear evidence that this is going to reduce crime and keep the public safer. I absolutely, 1 million percent, know this will create more crimes and slower response time. Its like asking criminals to turn in their guns, or stop killing each other, it doesn't work, they are criminals for a reason. I'm not saying people cant change, but the country is literally LITTERED with career criminals that will not change and will absolutely take advantage of less police.


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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by 91catAlum » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:15 am

iaafan wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:50 am
91catAlum wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:59 am
77matcat wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:32 pm
Correct me if I’m wrong, but police DeptS are funded locally and therefore controlled by local government, right. If a local government believes they have a better way to provide safety for their citizens they are welcome to do so. I’m sure no one would do so without meaningful due diligence.

It’s kind of like draining the swamp, like getting rid of the pandemic response team, right. Only with serious thought and deliberation.
There must be a certain amount of federal funding, because last week Bernie Sanders said he wanted to remove federal funding of police. I'm gonna assume he knows what he's talking about since he's been in the senate since the dawn of time... but I honestly do not know.

Also, the Defund The Police movement does not offer an alternative. It simply calls for the removal of the police. If they have a reasonable alternative I'd definitely be interested to hear it.
If you think that defunding simply calls for the removal of police, then you aren't following this very closely and probably shouldn't be weighing in on it considering how serious a topic it is. Talk of defunding has been around for several years, so this isn't something someone pulled out of the clear blue sky.

I see you were saying that bad cops are very rare or something to that effect. A poll from 2000 (a little dated) had 84% of police saying they've seen fellow officers use excessive force and 22% said they've seen it on a regular basis. Those aren't good numbers. It would be interesting to see a poll today to see if that's still the case.

There is a federal grant program, but there's not a direct appropriation of federal funds to police departments. Most funding comes from local government taxes. Pulling that grant program would not force a police dept. to disband. Sanders wants to make it unavailable to departments that violate Civil Rights laws, so it's a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.
Its the first I've heard of it, so forgive me for bringing it up several years too late, apparently. I'm not interested in arguing semantics, but the word "DE-fund" literally means "remove funding". If you want to justify it by saying it refers to a budget cut, I think its YOU who doesn't understand it. But I will say that I think "Defund the Police" means different things to different left wingers, depending on who you talk to. I've seen some that want reform, and some that want the complete and total removal of the police (many protesters in Minneapolis, for one example).

Thanks for the info on the federal funding, I didn't know that. Also, I'm glad you used the word "disband" because that's exactly the word used by congresswoman Ilhan Omar, and thats what she wants to do - disband the police. SO yes, I think it is you who doesn't understand what many of these people are calling for.

Your poll numbers are interesting, I'll have to do more research on that. But I'm still against disbanding the police, or even a major budget cut. Its possible that a part of this problem is LACK of budget, not too much budget. In fact, I might be in favor of adding to the budget to provide better training, better screening to make sure the personality type is going to function well as a cop, and better internal enforcement when problems arise. I also might be in favor of the breakup of the police union so that its easier to get rid of bad cops.
But defunding and disbanding? Nope.


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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by iaafan » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:16 am

BigBruceBaker wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:32 am
What should a police department look like? What should its function be?

When your house is being robbed and you call 911 who should answer and what should their response be?

When you see a drunk driver swerving all over the road and endangering lives who do you call?

When your friend was raped outside a bar, who do you call?

When you have a mentally unstable person in your store that is threatening violence to other, or themselves, who do you call?


Defunding a police department does absolutely nothing except to shift the burden to other agencies. This most likely will be put onto the county which will in turn lead to a mass hiring of deputies to be able to actively patrol, doing nothing to "fix" the problem.

Should we have a mental health department? Should we have a violent crimes department? Should we have a DUI department? How do I know who to call when I need someone? How do the 911 people know which agency should be the right one to go on the call? What if a normal situation turns violent, should the patrol stop and wait for the violent crimes department?

This doesn't fix a system that people are labeling "broken", it displaces and creates more bureaucracy.

Anyone that thinks defunding and removal of a police department, please provide clear evidence that this is going to reduce crime and keep the public safer. I absolutely, 1 million percent, know this will create more crimes and slower response time. Its like asking criminals to turn in their guns, or stop killing each other, it doesn't work, they are criminals for a reason. I'm not saying people cant change, but the country is literally LITTERED with career criminals that will not change and will absolutely take advantage of less police.
I doubt you'll find anyone here that can answer all your questions. I'm not even sure that defunding is appropriate in Montana. Changes of some form are most likely needed here. This is probably something that's more intense in more diverse and populated areas. I would think Montana could makes some changes to address the discrimination with Native Americans, which is probably our biggest minority group, by working with them and apply those to other groups.

Adding police has shown no cause and effect with decreasing crime. There have been tests that have shown that crime decreases with less policing.



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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by iaafan » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:25 am

91catAlum wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:15 am
iaafan wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:50 am
91catAlum wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:59 am
77matcat wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:32 pm
Correct me if I’m wrong, but police DeptS are funded locally and therefore controlled by local government, right. If a local government believes they have a better way to provide safety for their citizens they are welcome to do so. I’m sure no one would do so without meaningful due diligence.

It’s kind of like draining the swamp, like getting rid of the pandemic response team, right. Only with serious thought and deliberation.
There must be a certain amount of federal funding, because last week Bernie Sanders said he wanted to remove federal funding of police. I'm gonna assume he knows what he's talking about since he's been in the senate since the dawn of time... but I honestly do not know.

Also, the Defund The Police movement does not offer an alternative. It simply calls for the removal of the police. If they have a reasonable alternative I'd definitely be interested to hear it.
If you think that defunding simply calls for the removal of police, then you aren't following this very closely and probably shouldn't be weighing in on it considering how serious a topic it is. Talk of defunding has been around for several years, so this isn't something someone pulled out of the clear blue sky.

I see you were saying that bad cops are very rare or something to that effect. A poll from 2000 (a little dated) had 84% of police saying they've seen fellow officers use excessive force and 22% said they've seen it on a regular basis. Those aren't good numbers. It would be interesting to see a poll today to see if that's still the case.

There is a federal grant program, but there's not a direct appropriation of federal funds to police departments. Most funding comes from local government taxes. Pulling that grant program would not force a police dept. to disband. Sanders wants to make it unavailable to departments that violate Civil Rights laws, so it's a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.
Its the first I've heard of it, so forgive me for bringing it up several years too late, apparently. I'm not interested in arguing semantics, but the word "DE-fund" literally means "remove funding". If you want to justify it by saying it refers to a budget cut, I think its YOU who doesn't understand it. But I will say that I think "Defund the Police" means different things to different left wingers, depending on who you talk to. I've seen some that want reform, and some that want the complete and total removal of the police (many protesters in Minneapolis, for one example).

Thanks for the info on the federal funding, I didn't know that. Also, I'm glad you used the word "disband" because that's exactly the word used by congresswoman Ilhan Omar, and thats what she wants to do - disband the police. SO yes, I think it is you who doesn't understand what many of these people are calling for.

Your poll numbers are interesting, I'll have to do more research on that. But I'm still against disbanding the police, or even a major budget cut. Its possible that a part of this problem is LACK of budget, not too much budget. In fact, I might be in favor of adding to the budget to provide better training, better screening to make sure the personality type is going to function well as a cop, and better internal enforcement when problems arise. I also might be in favor of the breakup of the police union so that its easier to get rid of bad cops.
But defunding and disbanding? Nope.
In this case it means defund and use funds elsewhere. The city's budget amount stays roughly the same, but funds are placed on other line items that are deemed better at providing the service.

Omar wants to disband the police and use the funding they receive in an area that would better serve the people. If she's correct that another area would serve the people better than the traditional police department does, then who can knock her?

Yes, do more research. Please. Let me know what you find.

Hopefully we come out of this with a better way to serve the public that doesn't just involve throwing more money at it. You might want to take a closer look at some of the budgets in these large metro areas and ask yourself if you think the people are getting a good deal based on how the police perform in those areas.



ilovethecats
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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by ilovethecats » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:33 am

Fascinating subject. I think the most important thing to consider is this is a great thing because it means we're not talking about that super scary virus anymore. If getting rid of police is what needs to be done to make that happen....I'm all for it. :wink:



91catAlum
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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by 91catAlum » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:49 am

iaafan wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:25 am
91catAlum wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:15 am
iaafan wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:50 am
91catAlum wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:59 am
77matcat wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:32 pm
Correct me if I’m wrong, but police DeptS are funded locally and therefore controlled by local government, right. If a local government believes they have a better way to provide safety for their citizens they are welcome to do so. I’m sure no one would do so without meaningful due diligence.

It’s kind of like draining the swamp, like getting rid of the pandemic response team, right. Only with serious thought and deliberation.
There must be a certain amount of federal funding, because last week Bernie Sanders said he wanted to remove federal funding of police. I'm gonna assume he knows what he's talking about since he's been in the senate since the dawn of time... but I honestly do not know.

Also, the Defund The Police movement does not offer an alternative. It simply calls for the removal of the police. If they have a reasonable alternative I'd definitely be interested to hear it.
If you think that defunding simply calls for the removal of police, then you aren't following this very closely and probably shouldn't be weighing in on it considering how serious a topic it is. Talk of defunding has been around for several years, so this isn't something someone pulled out of the clear blue sky.

I see you were saying that bad cops are very rare or something to that effect. A poll from 2000 (a little dated) had 84% of police saying they've seen fellow officers use excessive force and 22% said they've seen it on a regular basis. Those aren't good numbers. It would be interesting to see a poll today to see if that's still the case.

There is a federal grant program, but there's not a direct appropriation of federal funds to police departments. Most funding comes from local government taxes. Pulling that grant program would not force a police dept. to disband. Sanders wants to make it unavailable to departments that violate Civil Rights laws, so it's a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.
Its the first I've heard of it, so forgive me for bringing it up several years too late, apparently. I'm not interested in arguing semantics, but the word "DE-fund" literally means "remove funding". If you want to justify it by saying it refers to a budget cut, I think its YOU who doesn't understand it. But I will say that I think "Defund the Police" means different things to different left wingers, depending on who you talk to. I've seen some that want reform, and some that want the complete and total removal of the police (many protesters in Minneapolis, for one example).

Thanks for the info on the federal funding, I didn't know that. Also, I'm glad you used the word "disband" because that's exactly the word used by congresswoman Ilhan Omar, and thats what she wants to do - disband the police. SO yes, I think it is you who doesn't understand what many of these people are calling for.

Your poll numbers are interesting, I'll have to do more research on that. But I'm still against disbanding the police, or even a major budget cut. Its possible that a part of this problem is LACK of budget, not too much budget. In fact, I might be in favor of adding to the budget to provide better training, better screening to make sure the personality type is going to function well as a cop, and better internal enforcement when problems arise. I also might be in favor of the breakup of the police union so that its easier to get rid of bad cops.
But defunding and disbanding? Nope.
In this case it means defund and use funds elsewhere. The city's budget amount stays roughly the same, but funds are placed on other line items that are deemed better at providing the service.

Omar wants to disband the police and use the funding they receive in an area that would better serve the people. If she's correct that another area would serve the people better than the traditional police department does, then who can knock her?

Yes, do more research. Please. Let me know what you find.

Hopefully we come out of this with a better way to serve the public that doesn't just involve throwing more money at it. You might want to take a closer look at some of the budgets in these large metro areas and ask yourself if you think the people are getting a good deal based on how the police perform in those areas.
If thats what Omar meant, then thats what she should've said. Then she wouldn't need democrat apologists to explain and spin her words into something more benign and sensible.

I'm aware of the budgets, my point was that "defunding" isn't a realistic solution if we want a better police force, unless you have a plan for where to reappropriate that money and how it will serve the same functions that the police currently do. Until I see that plan, I'm not on board with anything beyond reforming the current police departments and I indicated a few ideas in my last post.


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ilovethecats
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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by ilovethecats » Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:04 am

91catAlum wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:49 am
iaafan wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:25 am
91catAlum wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:15 am
iaafan wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:50 am
91catAlum wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:59 am
77matcat wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:32 pm
Correct me if I’m wrong, but police DeptS are funded locally and therefore controlled by local government, right. If a local government believes they have a better way to provide safety for their citizens they are welcome to do so. I’m sure no one would do so without meaningful due diligence.

It’s kind of like draining the swamp, like getting rid of the pandemic response team, right. Only with serious thought and deliberation.
There must be a certain amount of federal funding, because last week Bernie Sanders said he wanted to remove federal funding of police. I'm gonna assume he knows what he's talking about since he's been in the senate since the dawn of time... but I honestly do not know.

Also, the Defund The Police movement does not offer an alternative. It simply calls for the removal of the police. If they have a reasonable alternative I'd definitely be interested to hear it.
If you think that defunding simply calls for the removal of police, then you aren't following this very closely and probably shouldn't be weighing in on it considering how serious a topic it is. Talk of defunding has been around for several years, so this isn't something someone pulled out of the clear blue sky.

I see you were saying that bad cops are very rare or something to that effect. A poll from 2000 (a little dated) had 84% of police saying they've seen fellow officers use excessive force and 22% said they've seen it on a regular basis. Those aren't good numbers. It would be interesting to see a poll today to see if that's still the case.

There is a federal grant program, but there's not a direct appropriation of federal funds to police departments. Most funding comes from local government taxes. Pulling that grant program would not force a police dept. to disband. Sanders wants to make it unavailable to departments that violate Civil Rights laws, so it's a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.
Its the first I've heard of it, so forgive me for bringing it up several years too late, apparently. I'm not interested in arguing semantics, but the word "DE-fund" literally means "remove funding". If you want to justify it by saying it refers to a budget cut, I think its YOU who doesn't understand it. But I will say that I think "Defund the Police" means different things to different left wingers, depending on who you talk to. I've seen some that want reform, and some that want the complete and total removal of the police (many protesters in Minneapolis, for one example).

Thanks for the info on the federal funding, I didn't know that. Also, I'm glad you used the word "disband" because that's exactly the word used by congresswoman Ilhan Omar, and thats what she wants to do - disband the police. SO yes, I think it is you who doesn't understand what many of these people are calling for.

Your poll numbers are interesting, I'll have to do more research on that. But I'm still against disbanding the police, or even a major budget cut. Its possible that a part of this problem is LACK of budget, not too much budget. In fact, I might be in favor of adding to the budget to provide better training, better screening to make sure the personality type is going to function well as a cop, and better internal enforcement when problems arise. I also might be in favor of the breakup of the police union so that its easier to get rid of bad cops.
But defunding and disbanding? Nope.
In this case it means defund and use funds elsewhere. The city's budget amount stays roughly the same, but funds are placed on other line items that are deemed better at providing the service.

Omar wants to disband the police and use the funding they receive in an area that would better serve the people. If she's correct that another area would serve the people better than the traditional police department does, then who can knock her?

Yes, do more research. Please. Let me know what you find.

Hopefully we come out of this with a better way to serve the public that doesn't just involve throwing more money at it. You might want to take a closer look at some of the budgets in these large metro areas and ask yourself if you think the people are getting a good deal based on how the police perform in those areas.
If thats what Omar meant, then thats what she should've said. Then she wouldn't need democrat apologists to explain and spin her words into something more benign and sensible.

I'm aware of the budgets, my point was that "defunding" isn't a realistic solution if we want a better police force, unless you have a plan for where to reappropriate that money and how it will serve the same functions that the police currently do. Until I see that plan, I'm not on board with anything beyond reforming the current police departments and I indicated a few ideas in my last post.
Good points.

I think the term "defunding" is really just the attention grabber based on the little I have read. While their may be some who would support no police of any kind, I think that is a very extreme take likely held by only a few. I think the majority of the people supporting this movement are looking for a different allocation of funds. And while I agree it's not what defunding means, I think the term served it's purpose.

There was an article yesterday that basically said we spend like 110-115 billion dollars policing every year. And while the system works for white guys like me for the most part, the system doesn't seem to be working for everyone. And in the case of blacks, you could make the case it is hindering more than helping. So I know supports in Minnesota are asking for funds to be allocated differently which at it's face I don't have a problem with.

In it's very simplest form, my opinion is that if we spent less on our policing and military, and FAR less on what our government leaders earn, and put those funds to even just education and mental health resources, we'd be far better off. Since the beginning of time crime statistics have been linked to education, yet we completely ignore the education and then spend billions fighting crime, defending criminals, and paying for jails and prisons. Imagine if everyone had the same opportunities with their education, and the same resources across the board, what we might be able to accomplish.



hokeyfine
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Re: Imagine if Democrats got Their Way...

Post by hokeyfine » Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:07 am




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