Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

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catatac
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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by catatac » Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:04 pm

ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:34 pm
The Butcher wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:23 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:20 pm
The Butcher wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:12 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:48 am
The numbers you listed are fact I assume. Obviously there has been talk about how they count Covid deaths, but no sense in beating that drum. For the sake of argument we'll say the number is in fact 114,000. That's a lot of deaths. However, the issue I have is how it's being portrayed. Even in the way you worded your post above. Sure, saying Covid has killed more people than any war besides WW2 and the Civil War is eye opening. You know what else has killed more americans than any war besides WW2 and the Civil War? Heart disease. Cancer. Suicide. Abortion. There is no point whatsoever to say it that way unless one is attempting to make it appear as a very big, very scary, deal.
That is exactly the point. COVID-19 is a very big, very scary, deal. Using those comparisons puts the severity into perspective.
Ok. so than you agree that all the things I mentioned are also very big, very scary deals?

Can you imagine if we forced people to stop working and going to school until we have enough mental health resources to "flatten the curve" of suicide?! Hopefully using that comparison puts the severity of suicide into perspective. :wink:
Once you can catch suicide by going to Walmart, I will agree. :wink:
But that's not the point. It's about death. Your exact quote was comparing Covid DEATHS to the DEATHS of Americans in war. Deaths was the main talking point! To show the severity. But then people mention other forms of death, that will kill far more people, and suddenly it's not about the deaths...it's about the fear of being contagious.

I'm sorry but that just doesn't add up. You can't just use death stats to strike fear, and then ignore them when it doesn't fit the agenda.
Agree, and thanks Butcher for the numbers and well thought out opinion on this. Yes we disagree, but that's OK and I think this debate is healthy. One additional point I wanted to make on the death comparisons though, is the age difference. No, I'm not minimizing the fact that COVID kills old people, but yes I am saying that 18 year olds getting killed in a war is not the best comparison to 80 year olds dying from a virus.


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The Butcher
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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by The Butcher » Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:27 pm

catatac wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:04 pm
Agree, and thanks Butcher for the numbers and well thought out opinion on this. Yes we disagree, but that's OK and I think this debate is healthy. One additional point I wanted to make on the death comparisons though, is the age difference. No, I'm not minimizing the fact that COVID kills old people, but yes I am saying that 18 year olds getting killed in a war is not the best comparison to 80 year olds dying from a virus.
I have heard the "days lost" argument a number of times, and each time I cringe. Be it COVID or a causality of war, the loss of that person is still significant to their friends, family and neighbors. I also want to reiterate the comparison of deaths to a war is to show the significance of the pandemic. The situations are vastly different, but the comparison is simply to put into perspective the loss of life in our country. Finally, comparing people dying from cancer, suicide, heart disease, etc. is not really a fair comparison either. Life choices, mental health, genetics, etc. result in those deaths, whereas COVID is a virus transmitted no matter who you are.



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by 91catAlum » Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:47 pm

Shutting down the economy again is probably not gonna happen...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets ... li=BBnb7Kz


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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by ilovethecats » Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:15 pm

The Butcher wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:27 pm
Finally, comparing people dying from cancer, suicide, heart disease, etc. is not really a fair comparison either. Life choices, mental health, genetics, etc. result in those deaths, whereas COVID is a virus transmitted no matter who you are.
I'm sorry Butch but that is a HUGE stretch in my opinion. Are we honestly going to try and minimalize these other forms of death because they may involve life choices? I'm sorry but that's completely unfair. And you pointed out in your post the effects it has on family and friends. Are the impacts of Corona deaths worse for family and friends than they are other deaths?!

What about accidents? Vehicle and otherwise? We may as well say that people killed by drunk drivers are less important because they made the choice to drive that day.

I understand we disagree on this subject. But you are doing exactly what I said some people were doing months ago. You're acting like deaths from the virus are in some way more important, more devastating, more impactful than the other plethora of ways a persons life can end. I emphatically disagree.



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by wbtfg » Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:38 am

Yesterday the US had the 2nd highest single day positive count. Montana is starting to get more And more cases. But on the same token the death totals are falling dramatically.

I think the the death count and hospitalizations over the next 2-3 weeks will be important to keep an eye on. If those have a massive spike that mirror the spike in positive tests, I’m not confident we have a season at all.



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by The Butcher » Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:41 am

Things are getting REALLY bad in Texas. They are reporting 93% of ICU beds are being used.

https://abc13.com/hospitals-houston-hos ... n/6265504/

The reality is we never saw a downward trend on the COVID curve before "reopening" and now we are back to square one as a country.


New daily cases are rising in 29 places, these are the highest by percentage:

STATE AVG. THIS WEEK PER 100K % CHANGE VS. 2 WEEKS AGO
Oklahoma 372 new cases/day 9 per 100K +284%
Florida 3,756 new cases/day 17 per 100K +205%
Arizona 2,750 new cases/day 38 per 100K +157%
Texas 4,348 new cases/day 15 per 100K +156%
Idaho 110 new cases/day 6 per 100K +134%
S. Carolina 1,049 new cases/day 20 per 100K +119%
Kansas 184 new cases/day 6 per 100K +96%
Oregon 175 new cases/day 4 per 100K +86%
Georgia 1,336 new cases/day 13 per 100K +84%



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by iaafan » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:06 am

ilovethecats wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:15 pm
The Butcher wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:27 pm
Finally, comparing people dying from cancer, suicide, heart disease, etc. is not really a fair comparison either. Life choices, mental health, genetics, etc. result in those deaths, whereas COVID is a virus transmitted no matter who you are.
I'm sorry Butch but that is a HUGE stretch in my opinion. Are we honestly going to try and minimalize these other forms of death because they may involve life choices? I'm sorry but that's completely unfair. And you pointed out in your post the effects it has on family and friends. Are the impacts of Corona deaths worse for family and friends than they are other deaths?!

What about accidents? Vehicle and otherwise? We may as well say that people killed by drunk drivers are less important because they made the choice to drive that day.

I understand we disagree on this subject. But you are doing exactly what I said some people were doing months ago. You're acting like deaths from the virus are in some way more important, more devastating, more impactful than the other plethora of ways a persons life can end. I emphatically disagree.
The main reason it's not a fair comparison is because Covid is in a class all by itself right now. Being novel, it is a contagious disease that has no cure or remedy. There's no other disease/ailment going around like that. You just have to hope that you won't get so sick that it either kills you or leaves you permanently damaged. Like other diseases, it has proven to be extremely dangerous for the elderly and those with weakened immune systems. It has great potential to kill and cause permanent damage.

A fair comparison is the USA to European nations. The USA's response has been terrible. This didn't need to be as bad as it is. If there isn't a full football/basketball season, people that haven't been taking this seriously will be the cause of both the prolonged disease's effects and the effect on the economy. As long as the disease is as strong as it is, the economy will suffer. The economy won't come back to normal until the disease is under control. There's no way around that. Pretending it isn't there isn't going to work.



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by iaafan » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:20 am

ilovethecats wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:15 pm
The Butcher wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:27 pm
Finally, comparing people dying from cancer, suicide, heart disease, etc. is not really a fair comparison either. Life choices, mental health, genetics, etc. result in those deaths, whereas COVID is a virus transmitted no matter who you are.
I'm sorry Butch but that is a HUGE stretch in my opinion. Are we honestly going to try and minimalize these other forms of death because they may involve life choices? I'm sorry but that's completely unfair. And you pointed out in your post the effects it has on family and friends. Are the impacts of Corona deaths worse for family and friends than they are other deaths?!

What about accidents? Vehicle and otherwise? We may as well say that people killed by drunk drivers are less important because they made the choice to drive that day.

I understand we disagree on this subject. But you are doing exactly what I said some people were doing months ago. You're acting like deaths from the virus are in some way more important, more devastating, more impactful than the other plethora of ways a persons life can end. I emphatically disagree.


iltc: I saw this and thought it would be something you'd like to see/read.



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by TomCat88 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:26 pm



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by ilovethecats » Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:44 pm

iaafan wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:20 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:15 pm
The Butcher wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:27 pm
Finally, comparing people dying from cancer, suicide, heart disease, etc. is not really a fair comparison either. Life choices, mental health, genetics, etc. result in those deaths, whereas COVID is a virus transmitted no matter who you are.
I'm sorry Butch but that is a HUGE stretch in my opinion. Are we honestly going to try and minimalize these other forms of death because they may involve life choices? I'm sorry but that's completely unfair. And you pointed out in your post the effects it has on family and friends. Are the impacts of Corona deaths worse for family and friends than they are other deaths?!

What about accidents? Vehicle and otherwise? We may as well say that people killed by drunk drivers are less important because they made the choice to drive that day.

I understand we disagree on this subject. But you are doing exactly what I said some people were doing months ago. You're acting like deaths from the virus are in some way more important, more devastating, more impactful than the other plethora of ways a persons life can end. I emphatically disagree.


iltc: I saw this and thought it would be something you'd like to see/read.
Very interesting! Thank you.



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by technoCat » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:15 pm

TomCat88 wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:26 pm
So we're just going to attribute this all to trying to reopen the economy and not the hundreds of thousands of people marching through the streets together... :-s


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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by technoCat » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:22 pm

iaafan wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:20 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:15 pm
The Butcher wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:27 pm
Finally, comparing people dying from cancer, suicide, heart disease, etc. is not really a fair comparison either. Life choices, mental health, genetics, etc. result in those deaths, whereas COVID is a virus transmitted no matter who you are.
I'm sorry Butch but that is a HUGE stretch in my opinion. Are we honestly going to try and minimalize these other forms of death because they may involve life choices? I'm sorry but that's completely unfair. And you pointed out in your post the effects it has on family and friends. Are the impacts of Corona deaths worse for family and friends than they are other deaths?!

What about accidents? Vehicle and otherwise? We may as well say that people killed by drunk drivers are less important because they made the choice to drive that day.

I understand we disagree on this subject. But you are doing exactly what I said some people were doing months ago. You're acting like deaths from the virus are in some way more important, more devastating, more impactful than the other plethora of ways a persons life can end. I emphatically disagree.


iltc: I saw this and thought it would be something you'd like to see/read.
Yep, that is a very interesting article. Thanks for sharing.


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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by wbtfg » Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:50 pm

Tweet for everything. Haha.




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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by wbtfg » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:27 pm

Today we passed 40k positive tests for the first time ever! California, Texas, Florida and Arizona are getting hammered.

Montana cases rising everyday as well.

Looking like football becoming less likely.



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by wbtfg » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:23 pm

We (America) just shattered the record for most positive cases in a single day by over 7000. Florida alone had almost 9000.

Football looking less and less likely. Unfortunately.



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by TomCat88 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:32 am

wbtfg wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:23 pm
We (America) just shattered the record for most positive cases in a single day by over 7000. Florida alone had almost 9000.

Football looking less and less likely. Unfortunately.
Well, I don't know. As long as people aren't dying from it, I don't see why they'd need to cancel the season. There hasn't been a day over 1,000 deaths since 9 June 2020. Only 663 deaths yesterday when it was a record for cases. By the time football season gets here (8 August 2020) the ratio may be even less.


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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by Hawks86 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:39 pm



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by The Butcher » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:26 pm

Hawks86 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:39 pm
This dude kills me! I also love the You Betcha Guy reviews on Yetis.



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by catatac » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:10 pm

TomCat88 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:32 am
wbtfg wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:23 pm
We (America) just shattered the record for most positive cases in a single day by over 7000. Florida alone had almost 9000.

Football looking less and less likely. Unfortunately.
Well, I don't know. As long as people aren't dying from it, I don't see why they'd need to cancel the season. There hasn't been a day over 1,000 deaths since 9 June 2020. Only 663 deaths yesterday when it was a record for cases. By the time football season gets here (8 August 2020) the ratio may be even less.
Totally agree. Not sure why people are so freaked out about the rising number of positive tests? That is 100% a factor of more tests being administered, and it strengthens the position that most of the people that contract this virus get sick for a few days and get over it. As long as the death count continues to drop, that is what's most important.


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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by ilovethecats » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:08 pm

catatac wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:10 pm
TomCat88 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:32 am
wbtfg wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:23 pm
We (America) just shattered the record for most positive cases in a single day by over 7000. Florida alone had almost 9000.

Football looking less and less likely. Unfortunately.
Well, I don't know. As long as people aren't dying from it, I don't see why they'd need to cancel the season. There hasn't been a day over 1,000 deaths since 9 June 2020. Only 663 deaths yesterday when it was a record for cases. By the time football season gets here (8 August 2020) the ratio may be even less.
Totally agree. Not sure why people are so freaked out about the rising number of positive tests? That is 100% a factor of more tests being administered, and it strengthens the position that most of the people that contract this virus get sick for a few days and get over it. As long as the death count continues to drop, that is what's most important.
Yep. Positive cases are interesting to discuss. To me hospitalizations and especially deaths are far more important. We have 13 active hospitalizations in the entire state!

They report that we have 56 new cases. Highest we’ve ever seen in a single day. Seems very serious, very scary. We also tested 6500 people.....more than 4x our daily average. But I guess that doesn’t matter...... :-k



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