Can someone please explain....

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Can someone please explain....

Post by DriftCat » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:05 am

How an "intelligent" person can say that Iran has energy in mind when it comes to it's nuclear aspirations. They have said that they want to wipe Israel off the map many times.....maybe BHO considers this to be a peaceful statement??

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 47_pf.html

The other thing that is funny is that if Iran is really just about creating energy using nuclear power shouldn't that be even worse in Obama's eyes?


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Re: Can someone please explain....

Post by SonomaCat » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:20 am

It's called diplomacy. It's what people do when they would rather avoid war until absolutely necessary.



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Re: Can someone please explain....

Post by AlphaGriz1 » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:41 am

MM7CAT wrote:How an "intelligent" person can say that Iran has energy in mind when it comes to it's nuclear aspirations. They have said that they want to wipe Israel off the map many times.....maybe BHO considers this to be a peaceful statement??

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 47_pf.html

The other thing that is funny is that if Iran is really just about creating energy using nuclear power shouldn't that be even worse in Obama's eyes?
Hussein Obama is a ginormous hypocrite, he is only for clean energy if it is "his" clean energy.

Nobody else gets to do it unless the blatantly racist president says its ok.


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Re: Can someone please explain....

Post by DriftCat » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:46 am

Bay Area Cat wrote:It's called diplomacy. It's what people do when they would rather avoid war until absolutely necessary.
Wow! Thanks for that ground-breaking revalation! Only one problem, war can only be avoided when both sides want to avoid it.

So I guess we should be diplomatic and let them go ahead with their nuclear program after they "prove" to us that is all they are doing. Then, when they nuke Israel we will again talk to them again; this time in a more scolding manner. Mabye even give them a good spanking if that wouldn't be to harmful to their feelings.


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Re: Can someone please explain....

Post by AlphaGriz1 » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:04 am

You cant spank a Muslim that is torture and they frown on that. (Only when infidels do it)

They do not like feet or pigs you know.


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Re: Can someone please explain....

Post by SonomaCat » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:17 am

MM7CAT wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:It's called diplomacy. It's what people do when they would rather avoid war until absolutely necessary.
Wow! Thanks for that ground-breaking revalation! Only one problem, war can only be avoided when both sides want to avoid it.

So I guess we should be diplomatic and let them go ahead with their nuclear program after they "prove" to us that is all they are doing. Then, when they nuke Israel we will again talk to them again; this time in a more scolding manner. Mabye even give them a good spanking if that wouldn't be to harmful to their feelings.
So what would your approach be with Iran if you were President? Based on your knowledge of Persian culture and the nuances of the internal political forces at play within Iran (including the young Iranians who are fiercely nationalistic, but also very open to Western culture and democracy), how would you address the questions at hand without radicalizing the youth (which is what happens when we are heavy-handed)?

It's a delicate dance, but I am anxious to hear your expansive ideas on how the U.S. should deal with Iran so that Iran is no longer a threat to anyone and is rather a friend in the Middle East (which should be our goal in dealing with every country, obviously).



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Re: Can someone please explain....

Post by DriftCat » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:49 am

Bay Area Cat wrote:
MM7CAT wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:It's called diplomacy. It's what people do when they would rather avoid war until absolutely necessary.
Wow! Thanks for that ground-breaking revalation! Only one problem, war can only be avoided when both sides want to avoid it.

So I guess we should be diplomatic and let them go ahead with their nuclear program after they "prove" to us that is all they are doing. Then, when they nuke Israel we will again talk to them again; this time in a more scolding manner. Mabye even give them a good spanking if that wouldn't be to harmful to their feelings.
So what would your approach be with Iran if you were President? Based on your knowledge of Persian culture and the nuances of the internal political forces at play within Iran (including the young Iranians who are fiercely nationalistic, but also very open to Western culture and democracy), how would you address the questions at hand without radicalizing the youth (which is what happens when we are heavy-handed).

It's a delicate dance, but I am anxious to hear your expansive ideas on how the U.S. should deal with Iran so that Iran is no longer a threat to anyone and is rather a friend in the Middle East (which should be our goal in dealing with every country, obviously).
I don't pretend to be an expert on foreign policy BAC and I don't know the best way to deal with a country that has nuclear aspirations and has come out time and time again saying that their intention is to wipe Israel out of existence. I do know that to come out and say that you believe that they only want to use nuclear power for energy and that is fine as long as they prove it (how will we ever really know??) is very naive and possibly catastrophic.

I also know that we are proving to be very soft on anyone that is wanting to test us.....see Iran and N. Korea. The latter is blatantly testing nukes and missles and BHO is off in Hollywood fundraising and jetting off to New York for a date. He seems very non-chalant about what is happening globally. Remember, just because we want to talk doesn't mean they do. You can't expect to talk logic with illogical people that want to wipe out another country.


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Re: Can someone please explain....

Post by SonomaCat » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:56 am

No offense, MM7 ... but I don't think you really have the breadth of knowledge on the topic to call these diplomatic approaches "naive."

The leaders of Iran and North Korea are VERY logical. Suggesting that they aren't is a sign that you really don't understand the issues at play.

Fortunately, those formulating our foreign policy are quite well versed in these issues and understand the background of the situation in great depth. Perhaps if you did some expansive reading on the topic, the various sutbleties that we are witnessing now would make more sense to you.

And just FYI ... if you read up on the views of foreign policy experts, many will tell you that the WORST possible thing to do whenever NK starts acting up is to act freaked out and start paying attention to them ... because THAT'S EXACTLY THE REACTION THEY ARE GOING FOR! So don't confuse us acting calm with us not being concerned. We are being concerned while being smart ... which is good foreign policy.

And you know why Iran won't destroy Israel? Because they know it would lead to their own destruction. And they don't like to be destroyed. You know why their leaders use that kind of obnoxious rhetoric? Politics ... they are playing to their conservative base ... just like Rush Limbaugh playing to his base or just like McCain choosing Sarah Palin for a running mate. It's not because they actually believe it is a good idea, but rather because it gives them power within their own country.

Does Iran want nukes? Probably ... who wouldn't? Once you have nukes, people kiss your ass. We do need to make sure they don't get nukes, because we don't want them having that much leverage in the Middle East (and no Sunnis in the area want that either). So we need to be smart to leverage the various factions at play against one another in such a way to incent Iran not to pursue nukes. Be that through carrots or sticks, we need to make it happen. But just talking tough is about the worst way to go about it (as it will just make them want nukes more ... notice that we never talk ****** to countries with nukes?).

Freaking out and doing something -- anything -- RIGHT NOW! would be the sign of a really bad foreign policy.

Let things work in the background, let diplomacy work, let the public verbal chess go on without reading it too literally (because it's never literal ... it's all about nuance and positioning and trying to get what they want), and perhaps some constructive results will prevail.

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Re: Can someone please explain....

Post by DriftCat » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:41 pm

You are right BAC....I see how we should just take those threats as "rhetoric" since they won't act on them. After all, Hitler never acted on his belief that the Jews should be wiped out..............wait, actually he did.

I really wish that I had your confidence in our politicians, especially the Commander in Chief who has about 5 months more foreign policy experience than I do.


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Re: Can someone please explain....

Post by SonomaCat » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:54 pm

MM7CAT wrote:You are right BAC....I see how we should just take those threats as "rhetoric" since they won't act on them. After all, Hitler never acted on his belief that the Jews should be wiped out..............wait, actually he did.

I really wish that I had your confidence in our politicians, especially the Commander in Chief who has about 5 months more foreign policy experience than I do.
Yeah ... except that he hires lots of people who have lifetimes of experience in the area. That helps.

If you honestly think that Iran is comparable to Hitler (and you aren't just using this as a rhetorical device to try to be angry at Obama because he's a Democrat and you cheer for Republicans), then you must be quite upset that neither Bush nor Obama has just nuked them yet (as that would be the "logical" response to such a belief).

But I suspect that you actually kinda sorta realize that what I laid out made a lot of sense and you probably kinda sorta already knew that and that were it not for it being a convenient way to try to be outraged by a Democrat you probably wouldn't be upset at all about us using diplomacy to try to make the Middle East play nice.



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Re: Can someone please explain....

Post by WetWaderMT » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:30 pm

Yeah ... except that he hires lots of people who have lifetimes of experience in the area. That helps.
:lol: #-o [-o<

Like Joe Biden, for example!!!



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Re: Can someone please explain....

Post by tampa_griz » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:34 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:And you know why Iran won't destroy Israel? Because they know it would lead to their own destruction.
Reminds of Operation Desert Storm. Some folks were concerned (rightly) about Hussein's chemical and biological arsenal and that he would use them because he's insane. Well, he got sane real quick when he was told that if he used them that his own destruction was assured (we bounce back with nuclear). Very few dictators would willingly guarantee their own demise.

Lil' Kim worries me more if the gets close to a nuclear weapon. I'd venture to say that he really is crazy.



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Re: Can someone please explain....

Post by WetWaderMT » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:37 pm

tampa_griz wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:And you know why Iran won't destroy Israel? Because they know it would lead to their own destruction.
Reminds of Operation Desert Storm. Some folks were concerned (rightly) about Hussein's chemical and biological arsenal and that he would use them because he's insane. Well, he got sane real quick when he was told that if he used them that his own destruction was assured (we bounce back with nuclear). Very few dictators would willingly guarantee their own demise.

Lil' Kim worries me more if the gets close to a nuclear weapon. I'd venture to say that he really is crazy.
You're a little late...Lil' Kim's already got 'em...tested another one this past weekend, right after he declared the cease fire w/ S. Korea null and void!



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Re: Can someone please explain....

Post by DriftCat » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:43 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:
MM7CAT wrote:You are right BAC....I see how we should just take those threats as "rhetoric" since they won't act on them. After all, Hitler never acted on his belief that the Jews should be wiped out..............wait, actually he did.

I really wish that I had your confidence in our politicians, especially the Commander in Chief who has about 5 months more foreign policy experience than I do.
Yeah ... except that he hires lots of people who have lifetimes of experience in the area. That helps.

If you honestly think that Iran is comparable to Hitler (and you aren't just using this as a rhetorical device to try to be angry at Obama because he's a Democrat and you cheer for Republicans), then you must be quite upset that neither Bush nor Obama has just nuked them yet (as that would be the "logical" response to such a belief).

But I suspect that you actually kinda sorta realize that what I laid out made a lot of sense and you probably kinda sorta already knew that and that were it not for it being a convenient way to try to be outraged by a Democrat you probably wouldn't be upset at all about us using diplomacy to try to make the Middle East play nice.
Funny, show me where I said that we should just nuke Iran.......and to say that I am just angry at Obama because he is a democrat is silly. Again, (another BAC game) show me where I have been cheering Republicans. I am fed up with 99% of all politicians. My frustration comes from the fact that it sounds like BHO is just going to give them a pass by coming out and saying that he thinks they are pursuing them for energy and not to carry out the acts they have stated.

You have basically said that Iran does not want nuclear weapons to use, but rather for the power that comes along with it. How do you know that? Are YOU privy to what is going on behind closed doors? That is your reasoning for brushing off my concerns but you offer no proof that the steps that are being taken now are the right ones. BHO himself has stated that Iran obtaining nuclear weapons would be a game changer so why are we content to let them have access to what they need to make nukes? If they have nukes then they will either (A) use them or (B) use them to threaten and intimidate surrounding countries. Either way, not a good thing and you and I both know that Iran's intentions are not peaceful or for the production of energy.

That last quote kills me though BAC. How is BHO making the middle east "play nice" by allowing them to go ahead with their nuclear programs. I would love to hear more.


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Re: Can someone please explain....

Post by SonomaCat » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:47 pm

tampa_griz wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:And you know why Iran won't destroy Israel? Because they know it would lead to their own destruction.
Reminds of Operation Desert Storm. Some folks were concerned (rightly) about Hussein's chemical and biological arsenal and that he would use them because he's insane. Well, he got sane real quick when he was told that if he used them that his own destruction was assured (we bounce back with nuclear). Very few dictators would willingly guarantee their own demise.

Lil' Kim worries me more if the gets close to a nuclear weapon. I'd venture to say that he really is crazy.
I think he's delusional and paranoid, but I still think he makes rational (from his perspective, anyway) decisions. The North Koreans are amazingly wily and manipulative and aren't afraid of looking totally crazy (they throw one at the mascot's head from time to time) if it gets them what they want.

So although I think he's a terrible leader and an all-around not-good-guy ... I think his actions are very deliberate and strategic.

Unfortunately, he's also broke ... which puts him in a scary category. We need to be incredibly concerned about him selling a nuke to terrorists, because he needs the money and from his perspective it would be perfectly rational to make some money in that manner.

So from our perspective, we need to figure out what makes him tick and what ways we can deal with him that appeals to his reason and puts everyone in a position where they can save face and also feel like they got the better of the deal. The other option is a war, and that just sucks for everybody.



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Re: Can someone please explain....

Post by tampa_griz » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:48 pm

WetWaderMT wrote:
tampa_griz wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:And you know why Iran won't destroy Israel? Because they know it would lead to their own destruction.
Reminds of Operation Desert Storm. Some folks were concerned (rightly) about Hussein's chemical and biological arsenal and that he would use them because he's insane. Well, he got sane real quick when he was told that if he used them that his own destruction was assured (we bounce back with nuclear). Very few dictators would willingly guarantee their own demise.

Lil' Kim worries me more if the gets close to a nuclear weapon. I'd venture to say that he really is crazy.
You're a little late...Lil' Kim's already got 'em...tested another one this past weekend, right after he declared the cease fire w/ S. Korea null and void!
Well he "conducted a nuclear test" and fired a few short range delivery missiles. It's certainly something to keep an eye on but you make it sound like he's been lobbing nuclear weapons into the Pacific and is capable of obliterating Tokyo at the drop of a dime. That's not reality. If it was, we'd Japan and South Korea would already be demanding an assault. They aren't yet. Instead, like Obama, they're trying to form an international coalition to get them to stop. It's not the worst idea I've heard.

By the way, I did a stint in South Korea with the 2nd Infantry Division. If we would have freaked out every time he said something stupid I wouldn't have had as much fun there as I did.



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Re: Can someone please explain....

Post by SonomaCat » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:57 pm

MM7: If Iran really wanted to exterminate all Jews and wipe out Israel, why haven't they done anything about it yet? Hell, why haven't they even bothered to kill the 100,000 jews that live relatively freely (as much as anyone else over there, anyway) in Iran today? If they really cared about killing Jews with the passion you seem to think they do, you'd think they'd at very least take care of the low-hanging fruit in their own back yard, right?

Like I said ... do some reading on Iran and its politics, and I assure you that a lot of Iran's leaders silly and obnoxious rantings will make more sense from an internal political perspective.

Our State Department is packed with people who understand all of this much better than either of us ever will, so if something doesn't make sense to you or me, there's a good chance it is because those with more knowledge on the topic have insights we lack. And as long as they aren't out starting wars based on false pretenses (which always pisses me off), I am generally willing to either give them the benefit of the doubt or do a WHOLE LOT of research before declaring that they are wrong/naive and I am right.

I personally am happy to see us engaging these countries in dialogue and working with some carrots as opposed to just using sticks. We need to have both in use to get anything done, and we seem to be moving back into a balance that may be more effective at defusing tensions over time (but nothing will work miracles right away, that much is certain).



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Re: Can someone please explain....

Post by tampa_griz » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:01 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:I think he's delusional and paranoid, but I still think he makes rational (from his perspective, anyway) decisions. The North Koreans are amazingly wily and manipulative and aren't afraid of looking totally crazy (they throw one at the mascot's head from time to time) if it gets them what they want.
What do you suppose is his objective with his recent aggressive behavior? Economic and humanitarian aid?



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Re: Can someone please explain....

Post by SonomaCat » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:06 pm

tampa_griz wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:I think he's delusional and paranoid, but I still think he makes rational (from his perspective, anyway) decisions. The North Koreans are amazingly wily and manipulative and aren't afraid of looking totally crazy (they throw one at the mascot's head from time to time) if it gets them what they want.
What do you suppose is his objective with his recent aggressive behavior? Economic and humanitarian aid?
From what I've read, that seems to be what most assume is part of it. Another part is that he might be getting ready to kick the bucket, and that this rabble-rousing on his part was intended to stir up morale within the military and to lesser degree the populace to make him look like a big, strong powerful leader so that his son can take over without anyone trying to wrest power from them during a transition.

So partially "hey, you guys, look at me - give me concessions or I make South Korea go boom" (I can't help but hear that in a Team America voice) for the rest of the world and part "Look at the glorious and powerful country I have made for you that is feared by the rest of the world (as far as you know, because we don't let you hear anything from the rest of the world)" for his own people.

That all makes as much sense as anything I have read so far, so maybe it's on the right track.



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Re: Can someone please explain....

Post by tampa_griz » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:13 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:
tampa_griz wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:I think he's delusional and paranoid, but I still think he makes rational (from his perspective, anyway) decisions. The North Koreans are amazingly wily and manipulative and aren't afraid of looking totally crazy (they throw one at the mascot's head from time to time) if it gets them what they want.
What do you suppose is his objective with his recent aggressive behavior? Economic and humanitarian aid?
From what I've read, that seems to be what most assume is part of it. Another part is that he might be getting ready to kick the bucket, and that this rabble-rousing on his part was intended to stir up morale within the military and to lesser degree the populace to make him look like a big, strong powerful leader so that his son can take over without anyone trying to wrest power from them during a transition.

So partially "hey, you guys, look at me - give me concessions or I make South Korea go boom" (I can't help but hear that in a Team America voice) for the rest of the world and part "Look at the glorious and powerful country I have made for you that is feared by the rest of the world (as far as you know, because we don't let you hear anything from the rest of the world)" for his own people.

That all makes as much sense as anything I have read so far, so maybe it's on the right track.
Yeah that makes sense. Did I read he'd recently had a stroke?

I still say he's a few bricks short of a chimney. Perhaps not so much by his actions as a dictator (that's just cruel, paranoid, and delusional) but because of who he is as a person. A deranged addiction to slasher films? Drinking cognac like water? He's just bizarre.



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