Cap & Trade...poll added

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Is Cap & Trade the right way to address pollution?

Yes, we need to lead by example.
5
25%
No, changes need to be made but this will put the US at and unfair disadvantage.
8
40%
No, nothing needs to be done for pollution.
6
30%
Other.
1
5%
 
Total votes: 20

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BobCatFan
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Re: Cap & Trade

Post by BobCatFan » Mon May 11, 2009 9:38 pm

Russian scientist says Earth could soon face
new Ice Age
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22 Jan 08 (Excerpts) Temperatures on Earth have stabilized in the past decade, and the planet should brace itself for a new Ice Age rather than global warming, a Russian scientist said in an interview with RIA Novosti Tuesday.

"Russian and foreign research data confirm that global temperatures in 2007 were practically similar to those in 2006, and, in general, identical to 1998-2006 temperatures, which, basically, means that the Earth passed the peak of global warming in 1998-2005," said Khabibullo Abdusamatov, head of a space research lab at the Pulkovo observatory in St. Petersburg.

According to the scientist, the concentration of carbon dioxide in the Earth's atmosphere has risen more than 4% in the past decade, but global warming has practically stopped. It confirms the theory of "solar" impact on changes in the Earth's climate, because the amount of solar energy reaching the planet has drastically decreased during the same period, the scientist said.

"By the mid-21st century the planet will face another Little Ice Age, similar to the Maunder Minimum, because the amount of solar radiation hitting the Earth has been constantly decreasing since the 1990s and will reach its minimum approximately in 2041," he said.

The Maunder Minimum occurred between 1645 and 1715, when only about 50 spots appeared on the Sun, as opposed to the typical 40,000-50,000 spots.

It coincided with the middle and coldest part of the so called Little Ice Age, during which Europe and North America were subjected to bitterly cold winters.

Therefore, the Earth must brace itself for a growing ice cap, rather than rising waters in global oceans caused by ice melting.

Mankind will face serious economic, social, and demographic consequences of the coming Ice Age because it will directly affect more than 80% of the earth's population, the scientist concluded.


.
Earth on the Brink of an Ice Age
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11 Jan 09- Pravda (Excerpts) The graph of the Vostok ice core data shows that the Ice Age maximums and the warm interglacials occur within a regular cyclic pattern, the graph-line of which is similar to the rhythm of a heartbeat on an electrocardiogram tracing.

The Vostok data graph also shows that changes in global CO2 levels lag behind global temperature changes by about eight hundred years. What that indicates is that global temperatures precede or cause global CO2 changes, and not the reverse.

The reason that global CO2 levels rise and fall in response to the global temperature is because cold water is capable of retaining more CO2 than warm water. That is why carbonated beverages loose their carbonation, or CO2, when stored in a warm environment. We store our carbonated soft drinks, wine, and beer in a cool place to prevent them from loosing their ‘fizz’, which is a feature of their carbonation, or CO2 content. The earth is currently warming as a result of the natural Ice Age cycle, and as the oceans get warmer, they release increasing amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere.

Today we are again at the peak, and near to the end, of a warm interglacial, and the earth is now due to enter the next Ice Age.

The data from paleoclimatology, including ice cores, sea sediments, geology, paleobotany and zoology, indicate that we are on the verge of entering another Ice Age, and the data also shows that severe and lasting climate change can occur within only a few years.

While concern over the dubious threat of Anthropogenic Global Warming continues to distract the attention of people throughout the world, the very real threat of the approaching and inevitable Ice Age, which will render large parts of the Northern Hemisphere uninhabitable, is being foolishly ignored.

See entire article by Gregory F. Fegel :
http://english.pravda.ru/science/earth/106922-2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks to David Christian for this link


Global Cooling: The Coming Ice Age
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Short video (6 minutes) about the coming ice age.
I especially agree with climatologist George Kukla, who has been an ice-age alarmist since the early 1970s. Dr. Kukla, in 1972 a member of the Czechoslovakian Academy of Sciences and a pioneer in the field of astronomical forcing, still thinks an ice age is imminent.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks to David Christian for this link

Read more about Dr. Kukla:

Forget Warming - Beware the Next Ice Age
5 June 07 - The world is about to enter another ice age, says
George Kukla, a pioneer in the field of astronomical forcing.
http://www.iceagenow.com/Beware_The_Next_Ice_Age.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Climatologist Supports Czech President's View of Global Warming
6 Jun 07 -People are only marginally to blame for global warming," says
long-time climatologist George Kukla
See Climatologist Supports Czech President's View



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BobCatFan
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Re: Cap & Trade

Post by BobCatFan » Mon May 11, 2009 9:48 pm

For those of you who want the EPA and the government out of your pocket, please let you Congress and Senator know that you do not favor co2 being listed as a pollutant.
http://www.iceagenow.com/Get_your_boots_off_my_back.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



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Re: Cap & Trade

Post by TIrwin24 » Mon May 11, 2009 10:05 pm

...and Bobcatfan belts one out of the park!


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Re: Cap & Trade

Post by SonomaCat » Mon May 11, 2009 10:36 pm

TIrwin24 wrote:...and Bobcatfan belts one out of the park!
Are you being serious or sarcastic?

You surely don't find that website to be a voice of compelling authority of objective science, do you? If so ... you've GOT to listen to what else is being pimped on Coast to Coast with George Noory (which honestly is a fascinating program to listen to when doing all-night drives ... it's like a parade of freaks and conspiracy nuts)!



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Re: Cap & Trade

Post by tampa_griz » Tue May 12, 2009 6:22 am

Bay Area Cat wrote:
TIrwin24 wrote:...and Bobcatfan belts one out of the park!
Are you being serious or sarcastic?
Well when you consider that he references Rocky IV to make a point it's probably not too much of a stretch for him to watch a YouTube video and be convinced of anything. I'll give that a try at our next R&D meeting and let you know what my supervisor thinks of it.

Besides when the Czechoslovakian Academy of Sciences....did you hear me????.....the Czechoslovakian Academy of Sciences!!!!!!!!!!! tells me something....or someone with an IT budget big enough to develop something as spectacular as this, it's time to listen. =P~



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Re: Cap & Trade

Post by Sportin' Life » Tue May 12, 2009 6:44 am

tampa_griz wrote: Besides when the Czechoslovakian Academy of Sciences....did you hear me????.....the Czechoslovakian Academy of Sciences!!!!!!!!!!! tells me something....or someone with an IT budget big enough to develop something as spectacular as this, it's time to listen. =P~
Tells me the guy hasn't had a job in at least fifteen years right? It must've been about '93 that the Czechs and Slovaks got their amicable divorce, right?


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Re: Cap & Trade

Post by TIrwin24 » Tue May 12, 2009 9:07 am

BAC, until you come up and show me that CO2 is actually detrimental to our environment, BobCatFan's theory is as good as any right now.


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Re: Cap & Trade

Post by tampa_griz » Tue May 12, 2009 9:16 am

TIrwin24 wrote:BAC, until you come up and show me that CO2 is actually detrimental to our environment, BobCatFan's theory is as good as any right now.
http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.ns ... 9B00566924" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The entire report can be found here.



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Re: Cap & Trade

Post by TIrwin24 » Tue May 12, 2009 9:26 am

tampa_griz wrote:
TIrwin24 wrote:BAC, until you come up and show me that CO2 is actually detrimental to our environment, BobCatFan's theory is as good as any right now.
http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.ns ... 9B00566924" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The entire report can be found here.
The very first sentence in the article: It's not proven. It may be harmful. They don't know anything yet. You Fail.
(Washington, D.C. – April 17, 2009) After a thorough scientific review ordered in 2007 by the U.S. Supreme Court, the Environmental Protection Agency issued a proposed finding Friday that greenhouse gases contribute to air pollution that may endanger public health or welfare.


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Re: Cap & Trade

Post by tampa_griz » Tue May 12, 2009 10:55 am

TIrwin24 wrote:
tampa_griz wrote:
TIrwin24 wrote:BAC, until you come up and show me that CO2 is actually detrimental to our environment, BobCatFan's theory is as good as any right now.
http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.ns ... 9B00566924" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The entire report can be found here.
The very first sentence in the article: It's not proven. It may be harmful. They don't know anything yet. You Fail.
(Washington, D.C. – April 17, 2009) After a thorough scientific review ordered in 2007 by the U.S. Supreme Court, the Environmental Protection Agency issued a proposed finding Friday that greenhouse gases contribute to air pollution that may endanger public health or welfare.
Well you asked if CO2 is detrimental to our environment, and answered that it "may" be be harmful to our health or welfare (it is....ask any doctor). But from the same article...answering your original question......without any offending "mays":
EPA’s proposed endangerment finding is based on rigorous, peer-reviewed scientific analysis of six gases – carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide, hydrofluorocarbons, perfluorocarbons and sulfur hexafluoride – that have been the subject of intensive analysis by scientists around the world. The science clearly shows that concentrations of these gases are at unprecedented levels as a result of human emissions, and these high levels are very likely the cause of the increase in average temperatures and other changes in our climate.

The scientific analysis also confirms that climate change impacts human health in several ways. Findings from a recent EPA study titled “Assessment of the Impacts of Global Change on Regional U.S. Air Quality: A Synthesis of Climate Change Impacts on Ground-Level Ozone,” for example, suggest that climate change may lead to higher concentrations of ground-level ozone, a harmful pollutant. Additional impacts of climate change include, but are not limited to:
increased drought;
more heavy downpours and flooding;
more frequent and intense heat waves and wildfires;
greater sea level rise;
more intense storms; and
harm to water resources, agriculture, wildlife and ecosystems.



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Re: Cap & Trade

Post by TIrwin24 » Tue May 12, 2009 11:58 am

tampa_griz wrote:
The scientific analysis also confirms that climate change impacts human health in several ways. Findings from a recent EPA study titled “Assessment of the Impacts of Global Change on Regional U.S. Air Quality: A Synthesis of Climate Change Impacts on Ground-Level Ozone,” for example, suggest that climate change may lead to higher concentrations of ground-level ozone, a harmful pollutant. Additional impacts of climate change include, but are not limited to:
increased drought;
more heavy downpours and flooding;
more frequent and intense heat waves and wildfires;
greater sea level rise;
more intense storms; and
harm to water resources, agriculture, wildlife and ecosystems.


"I've always followed in my father's footsteps, not necessarily because I wanted to, but because it is in my spirit."

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tampa_griz
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Re: Cap & Trade

Post by tampa_griz » Tue May 12, 2009 1:29 pm

TIrwin24 wrote:
tampa_griz wrote:
The scientific analysis also confirms that climate change impacts human health in several ways. Findings from a recent EPA study titled “Assessment of the Impacts of Global Change on Regional U.S. Air Quality: A Synthesis of Climate Change Impacts on Ground-Level Ozone,” for example, suggest that climate change may lead to higher concentrations of ground-level ozone, a harmful pollutant. Additional impacts of climate change include, but are not limited to:
increased drought;
more heavy downpours and flooding;
more frequent and intense heat waves and wildfires;
greater sea level rise;
more intense storms; and
harm to water resources, agriculture, wildlife and ecosystems.
"may lead to a higher concentrations of ground-level ozone"
  • confirms that climate change impacts human health in several ways
    very likely the cause of the increase in average temperatures and other changes in our climate

    Additional impacts of climate change include, but are not limited to:
    increased drought;
    more heavy downpours and flooding;
    more frequent and intense heat waves and wildfires;
    greater sea level rise;
    more intense storms; and
    harm to water resources, agriculture, wildlife and ecosystems.
    ....
Let's go ahead and assume that climate change doesn't lead to higher concentrations of ground-level ozone. That report still adequately satisfies your request for opinion and confirmation from highly-respected global scientists that carbon dioxide (listed first among six greenhouse gases) is harmful to the environment and to our health.

If it's your opinion that that report does not say that carbon dioxide (among five other greenhouse gases) is harmful to our health and our environment I can't help you. You'd need another lesson in reading comprehension.



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Re: Cap & Trade

Post by BobCatFan » Tue May 12, 2009 5:53 pm

here is the gland slam - The true cause of global warming and global cool. Sun Spots and radiation levels coming from the sun.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



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Re: Cap & Trade

Post by BobCatFan » Tue May 12, 2009 6:00 pm

The won that wins the game with another grand slam
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Check out the plants grow up to 50% better with high levels of C02 and use less water. This would be the best thing for 3rd worl countries and desert areas.



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Re: Cap & Trade

Post by GrizinWashington » Tue May 12, 2009 8:51 pm

I'm still waiting on the answer to my fundamentalist Christian/Earth Caretaker question.


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Re: Cap & Trade

Post by nevadacat » Tue May 12, 2009 9:26 pm

Grizlaw wrote:
nevadacat wrote: By that logic, oxygen is a pollutant. Under certain conditions it can be toxic.
And if human-caused processes were spewing oxygen into the atmosphere in amounts that were sufficient to have harmful effects, I have no doubt many would consider it to be a pollutant.
Wow. Do you think humans are capable of increasing the CO2 level of the atmosphere 25-fold? Please cite evidence that this is even possible.


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Re: Cap & Trade

Post by tampa_griz » Tue May 12, 2009 9:37 pm

BobCatFan wrote:The won that wins the game with another grand slam
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Check out the plants grow up to 50% better with high levels of C02 and use less water. This would be the best thing for 3rd worl countries and desert areas.
Youtube.com and Rocky movies are not a recognized nor respected authority on any scientific matters regardless of what you might have learned at MSU.



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Re: Cap & Trade

Post by tampa_griz » Tue May 12, 2009 9:57 pm

nevadacat wrote:
Grizlaw wrote:
nevadacat wrote: By that logic, oxygen is a pollutant. Under certain conditions it can be toxic.
And if human-caused processes were spewing oxygen into the atmosphere in amounts that were sufficient to have harmful effects, I have no doubt many would consider it to be a pollutant.
Wow. Do you think humans are capable of increasing the CO2 level of the atmosphere 25-fold? Please cite evidence that this is even possible.
Montana State did not make the 2008 FCS playoff selection. Please cite evidence that that happened.



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Re: Cap & Trade

Post by Grizlaw » Tue May 12, 2009 10:11 pm

nevadacat wrote:Wow. Do you think humans are capable of increasing the CO2 level of the atmosphere 25-fold? Please cite evidence that this is even possible.
I don't think I said anything in my post to which this would be a logical response, so I'm not exactly sure where you're trying to go with this post. Regardless though -- it's pretty clear that your mind is made up on this issue, so even if this was responsive to my point, I wouldn't waste the energy trying to cite evidence of anything for your sake.

I was responding to your comment about oxygen being a pollutant, since it can be toxic in large enough quantities. My point was simply that a naturally-occuring compound (such as CO2, or I suppose, oxygen) can be a pollutant if man-made processes were to cause it to occur in unnaturally high levels. That's all...


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Re: Cap & Trade

Post by nevadacat » Tue May 12, 2009 11:43 pm

Grizlaw wrote:I don't think I said anything in my post to which this would be a logical response, so I'm not exactly sure where you're trying to go with this post. Regardless though -- it's pretty clear that your mind is made up on this issue, so even if this was responsive to my point, I wouldn't waste the energy trying to cite evidence of anything for your sake.

I was responding to your snarky comment about oxygen being a pollutant, since it can be toxic in large enough quantities. My point was simply that a naturally-occuring compound (such as CO2, or I suppose, oxygen) can be a pollutant if man-made processes were to cause it to occur in unnaturally high levels. That's all...
Allow me to recap.
GrizInWashington wrote:You canNOT be serious in your claim that you fail to realize that CO2 is a pollutant. It's a toxin. It's difficult to get more "pollutant" than that.

Carbon dioxide is toxic to the heart and causes diminished contractile force

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
nevadacat wrote:By that logic, oxygen is a pollutant. Under certain conditions it can be toxic.
Grizlaw wrote:And if human-caused processes were spewing oxygen into the atmosphere in amounts that were sufficient to have harmful effects, I have no doubt many would consider it to be a pollutant.
First, the claim was made that something is a pollutant because it can (potentially) be toxic. Then, an article was cited that described how, and in what concentrations, CO2 is toxic. The article states some adverse effects (dizziness) begin at 1% CO2. That's 10,000 ppm. The current atmospheric level is less than 400 ppm. That means to have harmful effects--if you consider dizziness harmful--we would have to pump out enough CO2 to increase the current level by 25 times. If one believes that the approximately 80 ppm net increase in CO2 levels since the beginning of the industrial revolution is ALL man-made (which I don't believe, but will graciously grant solely for the sake of the discussion), then to reach toxic levels, man would have to produce CO2 at such a rate to create a 120-fold net change when compared to that of the last 2 centuries. How we can possibly do that, I would really like to know.

My "snarky" comment was appropriate given the ridiculous notion that human-generated CO2 is leading to heart attacks, or other toxic effects, when atmospheric CO2 levels aren't even a significant fraction of what is necessary to cause such things. I'm happy you recognize that anything could be toxic, and thus be a pollutant, when present in high enough concentrations. However, your statement indicated agreement that CO2 is being produced in sufficient quantities to create toxic levels, which it clearly is not.

But, it''s clear your mind is made up too, as you chose to back up GrizinWashington, instead of doing the math to see his claims had no foundation. Now, when you can't provide data to support your assertions, you attack me personally. How typical.


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