Bush is Exonerated!

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TIrwin24
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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by TIrwin24 » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:29 pm

AlphaGriz1 wrote:We understand that, and speaking for myself, still want them to put the hurt on.


If for no other reason than MY personal well being.
Agreed.


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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by BearCat » Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:37 am

TIrwin24 wrote:
AlphaGriz1 wrote:We understand that, and speaking for myself, still want them to put the hurt on.


If for no other reason than MY personal well being.
Agreed.
Also Agreed.


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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by SonomaCat » Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:27 am

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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by SonomaCat » Wed May 13, 2009 1:00 pm




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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by catatac » Wed May 13, 2009 2:26 pm

Personally I do not have a problem with torture in terms of... "because it's not morally right, and it hurts!". I think the gloves are off and I'd say use whatever solution works to A: prevent future terrorist attacks like 9\11, and B: punish those responsible. However, torture is only a short-sighted solution that probably works against us in the long run. As the most powerful country in the world, we have to lead by example. If we condone torture, everybody will want to do it. Are the pro-torture saying it's a necessary thing, even if it's another country torturing our soldiers for info.?


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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by DriftCat » Wed May 13, 2009 4:33 pm

GrizinWashington wrote:It is obvious to me that for some of you, the terrorists have already won.

The primary goal of any terrorist is to change our society and culture to be more like theirs. They've clearly succeeded when some Americans consider terrorist-like abuse tactics to be acceptable. I'm appalled and saddened that some of you would be weak enough to have let them win so easily.

HMMMM.....Being held upside down and having water poured over my face or having my head sawed off by a huge frickin' machette.....please wait while I way the options here.

:roll:

People have gone absolutely mad......gasping for air is torture? Really? I would much rather gasp for air and eventually receive it, than have my head brutally seperated from my body; which makes air pretty difficult to gasp for afterwards. But all you lefties are right, we Americans are just so darn mean!


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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by SonomaCat » Wed May 13, 2009 4:44 pm

MM7CAT wrote:
GrizinWashington wrote:It is obvious to me that for some of you, the terrorists have already won.

The primary goal of any terrorist is to change our society and culture to be more like theirs. They've clearly succeeded when some Americans consider terrorist-like abuse tactics to be acceptable. I'm appalled and saddened that some of you would be weak enough to have let them win so easily.

HMMMM.....Being held upside down and having water poured over my face or having my head sawed off by a huge frickin' machette.....please wait while I way the options here.

:roll:

People have gone absolutely mad......gasping for air is torture? Really? I would much rather gasp for air and eventually receive it, than have my head brutally seperated from my body; which makes air pretty difficult to gasp for afterwards. But all you lefties are right, we Americans are just so darn mean!
I'm not understanding your argument.

What does the definition of torture have to do with a comparison to decapitation?

Are you saying anything short of decapitation is not torture, or are you just making a statement for shock value to distract attention from the real discussion? Or if neither of those is accurate, please explain what point you are making in explicit terms.

By the way, here's a "lefty" who is quite passionate in his opposition to water boarding and other torture techniques:

http://www.librarygrape.com/2009/04/mcc ... -that.html

I know I would be outraged if a foreign government was waterboarding Americans ... wouldn't you, MM7? Or would you be fine with that?



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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by Grizlaw » Wed May 13, 2009 7:00 pm

FWIW, I read MM7's post as an objection to the reference to waterboarding as "terrorist-like abuse tactics," rather than taking a position on whether it is or isn't torture. And for what it's worth, I actually agree with him. Waterboarding may be torture, and maybe should be banned, but to equate it to what al Qaeda has done to Americans it has captured (i.e., cutting off their heads and mailing us the videotapes) is a bit dramatic.


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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by SonomaCat » Wed May 13, 2009 7:09 pm

Grizlaw wrote:FWIW, I read MM7's post as an objection to the reference to waterboarding as "terrorist-like abuse tactics," rather than taking a position on whether it is or isn't torture. And for what it's worth, I actually agree with him. Waterboarding may be torture, and maybe should be banned, but to equate it to what al Qaeda has done to Americans it has captured (i.e., cutting off their heads and mailing us the videotapes) is a bit dramatic.
If we just look at the first paragraph, I would agree with your analysis of MM7's statements. His second paragraph, however, explicitly mocks the idea that waterboarding is torture (which I interpreted as him suggesting that it wasn't torture) while comparing it to decapitation, which is what prompted my questions.

I agree that GIW's statement about terrorist-like activities is a bit on the hyperbole side. I wouldn't equate waterboarding to acts of terrorism (at least, not in the way we generally refer to and think of "terrorists.") On the scale of the world's villians, those acts are merely associated with such groups as the Japanese in WWII, the North Vietnamese, the Soviets, the Khmer Rouge, and the Spanish Inquisition.

I was trying to determine if (as it sounds to me) MM7 thinks waterboading and other forms of torture are justified because the terrorists do things that are even worse. If so, I think he illustrates the exact point that GIW was making (by way of utilizing some hyperbole). If not, and he merely meant what you interpreted, then I would tend to fall more in line with agreeing with both of you.



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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by GrizinWashington » Wed May 13, 2009 7:24 pm

I was trying to determine if (as it sounds to me) MM7 thinks waterboading and other forms of torture are justified because the terrorists do things that are even worse. If so, I think he illustrates the exact point that GIW was making
Fortunately BAC understood my post. GL and others misinterpreted or misunderstood. Whether or not our torture meets the level of torture from terrorists is insignigicant to me in this conversation. It seems to me if we participate in ANY type of torture we become more terrorist-like based upon the sheer nature of torture. I'll leave it to others to argue degrees of such torture.


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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by TomCat88 » Wed May 13, 2009 7:56 pm

Have they ever taken a poll of persons who have been waterboarded asking them if they think waterboarding is torture? I'm interested in seeing those results if anyone can direct me to them.

On the lighter side: Was it Socrates or Plato who said, "You give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders." j/k, it was Jesse "The Body" Ventura, who actually resembles Benjamin Franklin these days. The hair style at least.

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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by Grizlaw » Thu May 14, 2009 5:44 am

GrizinWashington wrote:Fortunately BAC understood my post. GL and others misinterpreted or misunderstood. Whether or not our torture meets the level of torture from terrorists is insignigicant to me in this conversation. It seems to me if we participate in ANY type of torture we become more terrorist-like based upon the sheer nature of torture. I'll leave it to others to argue degrees of such torture.
I understand your point perfectly; I just don't think torture is a concept that can be thought about in the way you're trying to frame it. The question of what does and does not constitute torture is not exactly a bright line, and even if we agree that something like waterboarding is torture, I don't think you would disagree that more extreme forms of torture (or simply beheading prisoners) don't fall quite a bit further down on the "morally wrong" continuum. Waterboarding may be torture, but even if we agree that it is, I think it's a bit sensationalist to then start comparing us to the terrorists.


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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by TomCat88 » Thu May 14, 2009 7:00 am

What waterboarding does is give those sympathetic to Islamic fundamentalists a reason to say: the U.S. is no better than the terrorists. It's not true of course, but this is what the U.S. really wants to avoid, because we like to believe we are better than everyone else, especially terrorists, and lets just admit it, we want everyone else to think we're better.

Torture may produce information, but doesn't scare off terrorists it just emboldens them, this is why even non-politically motivated people in the U.S. are critical of torture. Whatever information we might get may not be able to outweigh the selling point (that hypocrite Americans torture their prisoners) of the terrorists.

Now that we've done it, the question is: Did waterboarding produce enough information to offset the increase it had on terrorist recruiting? I don't know the answer, but I do think that even if all Americans were to agree that waterboarding isn't torture it wouldn't decrease the terrorist's selling point, because they think it is torture.


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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by TeacherCat » Thu May 14, 2009 8:15 am

How would Americans react if they found out that American journalist Roxana Seberi was being waterboarded to retrieve information in regards to her 'spying mission' in Tehran?


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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by Grizlaw » Thu May 14, 2009 8:22 am

TeacherCat wrote:How would Americans react if they found out that American journalist Roxana Seberi was being waterboarded to retrieve information in regards to her 'spying mission' in Tehran?
We'd be angry, no doubt. Would you agree that we'd be angrier, though, if we found out that the Iranians simply beheaded her?


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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by AlphaGriz1 » Thu May 14, 2009 8:23 am

TeacherCat wrote:How would Americans react if they found out that American journalist Roxana Seberi was being waterboarded to retrieve information in regards to her 'spying mission' in Tehran?

I wouldn't care if every journalist in this country was waterboarded, in fact I am all for it. Why would she be any different in fact expect them to do that.

Torture is listening to Celine Dion, Nancy Pelosi and Jon Stewart, not having some water dumped on you.


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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by TeacherCat » Thu May 14, 2009 8:35 am

Grizlaw wrote:
TeacherCat wrote:How would Americans react if they found out that American journalist Roxana Seberi was being waterboarded to retrieve information in regards to her 'spying mission' in Tehran?
We'd be angry, no doubt. Would you agree that we'd be angrier, though, if we found out that the Iranians simply beheaded her?
Of course I would be angrier if they killed an innocent person. Any sort of ill treatment of an innocent person is unacceptable.


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