Bush is Exonerated!

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WetWaderMT
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Bush is Exonerated!

Post by WetWaderMT » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:18 pm

Seeing as how BO and his legal team decided to release all the "torture" memos regarding treatment of the terrorists, and reading/hearing about what was in them, I'd have to say that all those "cry wolf" types about torture being condoned by President Bush owe him and his administration a HUGE apology! If ANYONE thinks what was done to those TERRORIST (yeah, I said it!) was torture, they're beyond help and should be totally and completely ignored! I'd call all of that schtuff little more than hazing at worst and mental pranks at best!



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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by SonomaCat » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:50 pm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03372.html

http://www.seattlepi.com/opinion/361447_thomas02.html

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04 ... g-torture/

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/14/us/14gitmo.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/1 ... 88008.html

And, just FYI, we charged Japanese soldiers with war crimes for doing this sort of thing to Americans during WWII. Apparently we didn't consider it "just hazing" back then.



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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by BearCat » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:29 pm

:cry: WAH! :cry: It's wartime. I agree with WetWader. Rules are disrgarded all the time during war. Sometimes torture is the only way to find out the information you need to get. Do I think that we should live in a hipocracy where it's ok for US to torture THEM and not vice versa??....absolutely not. But this is the way things work behind closed doors and I say more power to those who conducted the tortures and more power to Bush for condoning it. It IS a necessary evil. According to the link BAC provided....Yes, I believe that legal torture should consist of anything that does not result in death, organ failure, or permanent damage....anything else is fair game. Outlaw it, ban it, frown at it...whatever...torture will always exist. That is unless you have a detainee or POW that is willing to answer all of your questions if you ask nicely :roll: Just my 2 cents.


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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by WetWaderMT » Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:16 am

The fact that you quote the Seattle PI, NYT, Washington Post and last, but definitely MOST OUTRAGEOUS the Huffinton Post proves what a Kool-Aid drinker you are. And you suggest Fox News isn't a "legitimate" news source! You're incredible. #-o

You're right...we've done things wrong, (who hasn't, but why do all of you have to dwell on the negative, instead of pointing out the positive, especially to the rest of the world?) but we've also done 100 Million MORE things RIGHT than wrong in/for this world. Oh, and for all this concern over why the rest of the world thinks we're arrogant...maybe its because we think we're "better" than they are about how we treat prisoners who want to KILL us! You know, the whole, "We wouldn't want them to do that to our captured soldiers, so we better not do it to anyone we capture. 'We're better than that!'" mentality! Talk about ARROGANCE! And by the way, they DO do those things w/o regret, because they realize these people thinking cutting someone's head off, in front of a video camera to send to the media, is reasonable!



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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by SonomaCat » Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:45 am

WetWaderMT wrote:The fact that you quote the Seattle PI, NYT, Washington Post and last, but definitely MOST OUTRAGEOUS the Huffinton Post proves what a Kool-Aid drinker you are. And you suggest Fox News isn't a "legitimate" news source! You're incredible. #-o
Surely I don't need to explain to you how absurd that argument is. I could find those same stories from any news source in the world (these just happened to be some of the top hits in my thirty second google search ... and I had no interest in wasting any more time providing you with this info that I knew you'd likely ignore) ... the relevant facts in those stories aren't opinion pieces, they are wire stories that were picked up by every news outlet in the country. Obviously, the main point is that BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS are on record stating that IT WAS TORTURE. And even one of their own memos noted that it was legally defined as torture.

I'm not going to argue with you. The facts speak for themselves ... no matter what rhetorical pretzels you put yourself into to try to ignore them.

By the way, I've never said that Fox News isn't a legitimate news source (sorry to ruin your lame argument). I quote news stories from them all the time (they publish essentially the exact same stories as every other news outlet in the country). I simply note that their site/channel ALSO contains a whole lot of commentary/opinion that has zero objective insight.



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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by TIrwin24 » Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:52 am

If torture means guaranteeing the safety of our nation, then that's what should be done.

I am sick to death of dumbass politicians and the public, (for that matter) trying to defend the rights of terrorists! Maybe if they had family or friends that were stuck in the world trade towers, they might have a little more passion about stopping terrorism.

But, until that happens, I hope a foreign bomb doesn't hit their house.


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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by Cat8191 » Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:41 am

BAC, I really hoped one of your links would back up your assertion that the US is basically operating as Japanese WW2 prison guards or that these terrorists are being subject to any thing remotely similar to what US POWs have endured. I seriously doubt that any Japanese was tried only for alleged water boarding, or for any other method employed by the US. I will admit that it is possible though, but it would have been in a plea bargain sort of way. Mutilation, lethal starvation, and off hand execution were common, but they had to make specific charges on specific evidence in spite of what may have been circumstantially obvious.

I really would like to see where you got your information.



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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by SonomaCat » Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:14 pm

Cat8191: Here is a link that supports the last line of my post, as requested:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02005.html
Twenty-one years earlier, in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk.
I assume the fact that our government advocated waterboarding isn't in dispute, so my link should be the final bit of information needed.

I'm not saying that what our government did was the same as what the Japanese did, but I am saying that when our citizens were waterboarded, we considered it torture and a war crime.



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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by SonomaCat » Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:21 pm

TIrwin24 wrote:If torture means guaranteeing the safety of our nation, then that's what should be done.

I am sick to death of dumbass politicians and the public, (for that matter) trying to defend the rights of terrorists! Maybe if they had family or friends that were stuck in the world trade towers, they might have a little more passion about stopping terrorism.

But, until that happens, I hope a foreign bomb doesn't hit their house.
Before I invest any more time responding to this post, I need to know something ... are you making this post with a mindset that your mind is made up and that anyone who disagrees with you is just a politically correct liberal pansy that wasn't impacted by 9/11 as much as you were and doesn't care about stopping terrorism as much as you do, or are you approaching this topic from a perspective of intellectual honesty and reasoned analysis?

If the former, I won't bother. If the latter, I will invest the time to provide you with information and perspectives that will certainly impact your current mindset.



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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by SonomaCat » Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:27 pm

From Mr. McCain ... a guy whose patriotism, concern about terrorism, and first-hand knowledge of torture is beyond refute:
That is why I fought for passage of the Detainee Treatment Act (DTA), which applied the Army Field Manual on interrogation to all military detainees and barred cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment of any detainee held by any agency. In 2006, I insisted that the Military Commissions Act (MCA) preserve the undiluted protections of Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions for our personnel in the field. And I have expressed repeatedly my view that the controversial technique known as “waterboarding” constitutes nothing less than illegal torture.
This necessarily brings us to the question of waterboarding. Administration officials have stated in recent days that this technique is no longer in use, but they have declined to say that it is illegal under current law. I believe that it is clearly illegal and that we should publicly recognize this fact.
http://mccain.senate.gov/public/index.c ... D46C47B725



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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by TIrwin24 » Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:15 pm

BAC, the point of my post is that for the last 7 years, (I say seven years because I really didn't pay attention to politics in high school and earlier) bureaucracy has stepped in and really hindered our efforts at bringing terrorism to a stand-still.

There are human rights activists protesting the treatment of individuals that we have found capable of doing harm to our nation, and now we are shutting down GITMO for the same reasons.

For whatever reason, a good portion of the populous of the US has been defending the treatment of these people, and it is starting to carry up the ladder of bureaucracy. We now have politicians, (who are more concerned with poll numbers than their own nation) who actually support releasing these dangerous people back into the world.

Do you not see a problem with this?

I for one am not going to tolerate attitudes that think there is peace, love, and harmony in this world because there isn't. There are many nations around the world that hate the United States and they would love nothing more than to wipe us completely off the map.

So if it takes a little waterboarding to get one of these dipsh*ts to talk to help keep us safe. So be it.


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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by BearCat » Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:18 pm

TIrwin24 wrote:BAC, the point of my post is that for the last 7 years, (I say seven years because I really didn't pay attention to politics in high school and earlier) bureaucracy has stepped in and really hindered our efforts at bringing terrorism to a stand-still.

There are human rights activists protesting the treatment of individuals that we have found capable of doing harm to our nation, and now we are shutting down GITMO for the same reasons.

For whatever reason, a good portion of the populous of the US has been defending the treatment of these people, and it is starting to carry up the ladder of bureaucracy. We now have politicians, (who are more concerned with poll numbers than their own nation) who actually support releasing these dangerous people back into the world.

Do you not see a problem with this?

I for one am not going to tolerate attitudes that think there is peace, love, and harmony in this world because there isn't. There are many nations around the world that hate the United States and they would love nothing more than to wipe us completely off the map.

So if it takes a little waterboarding to get one of these dipsh*ts to talk to help keep us safe. So be it.



=D^ :goodpost: :D


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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by SonomaCat » Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:00 pm

That was apparently a long way of saying "the former."

Point taken. I won't invest the time.



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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by GrizinWashington » Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:18 am

It is obvious to me that for some of you, the terrorists have already won.

The primary goal of any terrorist is to change our society and culture to be more like theirs. They've clearly succeeded when some Americans consider terrorist-like abuse tactics to be acceptable. I'm appalled and saddened that some of you would be weak enough to have let them win so easily.


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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by CapitalCityCat » Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:04 pm

WetWaderMT wrote:You're right...we've done things wrong, (who hasn't, but why do all of you have to dwell on the negative, instead of pointing out the positive, especially to the rest of the world?) but we've also done 100 Million MORE things RIGHT than wrong in/for this world.
That's an ironic statement considering 99% of the posts in this forum dwell on the "negative".


Retiring my moniker. It's time to ride off into the sunset. It's been a fun ride. Go Cats.

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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by TIrwin24 » Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:21 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:That was apparently a long way of saying "the former."

Point taken. I won't invest the time.
This just proves that you're almost as leftist as our current president. Congratulations =D^

Your and our president's views at national security are a joke at best, and I seriously hope that it doesn't come back and bite you in the ass.


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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by AlphaGriz1 » Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:42 pm

TIrwin24 wrote:If torture means guaranteeing the safety of our nation, then that's what should be done.

I am sick to death of dumbass politicians and the public, (for that matter) trying to defend the rights of terrorists! Maybe if they had family or friends that were stuck in the world trade towers, they might have a little more passion about stopping terrorism.

But, until that happens, I hope a foreign bomb doesn't hit their house.

Once again we differ, I hope one DOES hit their house.


There is nothing better than a real life experience to get some people thinking right.


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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by AlphaGriz1 » Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:44 pm

GrizinWashington wrote:It is obvious to me that for some of you, the terrorists have already won.

The primary goal of any terrorist is to change our society and culture to be more like theirs. They've clearly succeeded when some Americans consider terrorist-like abuse tactics to be acceptable. I'm appalled and saddened that some of you would be weak enough to have let them win so easily.

Just like any group, even terrorists are not always wrong all the time. Even they get it when it comes to torture. Now who is slow?


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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by SonomaCat » Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:55 pm

Some have asserted that torture gets these guys to talk. That is probably true, but if your goal is to get them to tell you things that are actually true, it's not always so effective:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/09/polit ... r=homepage



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Re: Bush is Exonerated!

Post by AlphaGriz1 » Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:24 pm

We understand that, and speaking for myself, still want them to put the hurt on.


If for no other reason than MY personal well being.


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