The Bobcat Nation

This thread isn't an effort to show anybody up or anything ... but given the number of people who want Bailey fired, I thought this might be a good opportunity to expand on the underlying issues that people have with his approach to coaching.

So outside of citing individual play calls (as we all know that individual play calls will be wrong -- meaning that they didn't work -- from time to time, and we can only hope that those mistakes are learned from ... such as when to use an end around option pass), what overall philosophical shortcomings do you see Bailey having with regards to running the offense, and if you were his advisor and had his complete and undivided attention, and he came to you for suggestions of how to improve the MSU offense, what would you tell him?

I tend to learn a lot about football from threads like this.

http://uscsports.cstv.com/sports/m-foot ... mcume.html

I know Carolina only went 7-5 this year but, the pitch and catch or run and shoot--whatever--he ran in FL versus last year where he ran 373 running plays and 360 passing plays are surprisingly close to what he tried to do and wasn't too far off with his 96 national championship team. Fairly balanced offense contrasted with what June Jones does in Hawaii (do you think that offense will ever get Hawaii to a BCS game?)

Hell, take Urban Meyer's statistics this year:http://uscsports.cstv.com/sports/m-foot ... mcume.html

Notice Florida ran it 433 times to throwing in 362. When you are shoving it down the throat of whomever you're playing and they obviously are on their heels and can't stop your rushing attack, why go to the sandlot crap? I don't know of any coach who wouldn't rather physically line up and overpower whoever we're playing (like we did against PSU).

I just want to see some kind of consistency that takes into consideration the role the offense has in relation to the defense and special teams aspect of a football game. That is to say, if you as the OC knows the defense is a little dinged up, help them out a little by keeping them off the field and don't put them in the hole continually by abandoning the field position aspect of a football game. Try to keep the other offense on their side of the field. Think of all the adjustments that need to be made over the course of the game and then make them and quit trying to impress us with the big play when we don't need a big play and allow the kids the opportunity to experience sustained success with what you've introduced during spring and fall ball before throwing another playbook at them, especially early in the year.

id take a look at what montana ran in 1995

Hell's Bells wrote:id take a look at what montana ran in 1995

I am hoping that people will also give some specific compare and contrast analysis between what MSU has ran in recent years to what the posters think an ideal offensive coordinator would do.

I think we can all say something like "Do what [successful team] does," but I am hoping we can dig a little deeper and tap some of the knowledgable football minds on this board (and, admittedly, mine is not in that category, so I won't even pretend to have the answers) to come up with come constructive criticisms of the offensive schemes we have seen in the past.

And specific to the Griz offense of 95 ... why doesn't anybody run that offense anymore? I suspect that the capitalistic market of football decided that it didn't work well once the defenses figured it out, so although it was revolutionary to some degree, it may not have become an evolutionary piece of the conventional wisdom of college football coaching.

Bay Area Cat wrote:

Hell's Bells wrote:id take a look at what montana ran in 1995

I was hoping that people could give some specific compare and contrast analysis between what MSU has ran in recent years to what the posters think an ideal offensive coordinator would do.

I think we can all say something like "Do what [successful team] does," but I am hoping we can dig a little deeper and tap some of the knowledgable football minds on this board (and, admittedly, mine is not in that category, so I won't even pretend to have the answers) to come up with come constructive criticisms of the offensive schemes we have seen in the past.

And specific to the Griz offense of 95 ... why doesn't anybody run that offense anymore? I suspect that the capitalistic market of football decided that it didn't work well once the defenses figured it out, so although it was revolutionary to some degree, it may not have become an evolutionary piece of the conventional wisdom of college football coaching.

That offense always runs into trouble when the opposing defense has speed in the secondary. UM's receivers had trouble getting open against teams like Marshall, Y-town and eventually BSC teams caught on. This is also why the BSC has gone from the aerial circus to the grind it out style.

I don' think the O needs an overhaul. MSU's offense needs to be able to (or have the players to) run a couple unconventional plays out of its base offense. I don't think we ran the QB draw once this year. It's a great play (with a guy Lulay or Meyer), but we didn't have the personnel. We would also find success with hand-off option, such as ASU ran. No, I don't think we can run it like they did, but it's a nice play that keeps defenses on their toes. We were way too predictable is what I'm saying. That was partially due to having a QB that wasn't very mobile.

Plays like the reciever pass/halfback pass are great in offenses like ours that are so conventional. Had Evin Groves developed into the player we all thought he'd be, he would've perfect for plays like that. But they have to be executed properly and the go-to guy has to run them. MJ was a great choice for that play vs. ASU, but he obvioulsy wasn't well versed. He'd run several reverses this year. He didn't sell the run on that play at all and when the receiver wasn't open (double-teamed) he threw it anyway, and he underthrew it. Execution is dependent upon practice, which I don't think we did much of for that play prior to MJ's nightmare at ASU. Therefore poor coaching decision.

The more conventional you are, the better unconventional play works.

Here's our stats for the year to compare to Cat Grad's:


Montana State 2006 Statistics
Montana State Overall Team Statistics (as of Dec 03, 2006)
All games

TEAM STATISTICS MSU OPP
--------------------------------------------------------
SCORING....................... 261 286
Points Per Game............. 20.1 22.0
FIRST DOWNS................... 194 216
Rushing..................... 60 97
Passing..................... 119 105
Penalty..................... 15 14
RUSHING YARDAGE............... 1230 1560
Yards gained rushing........ 1596 1894
Yards lost rushing.......... 366 334
Rushing Attempts............ 390 484
Average Per Rush............ 3.2 3.2
Average Per Game............ 94.6 120.0
TDs Rushing................. 13 18
PASSING YARDAGE............... 2940 2428
Att-Comp-Int................ 410-224-19 388-203-14
Average Per Pass............ 7.2 6.3
Average Per Catch........... 13.1 12.0
Average Per Game............ 226.2 186.8
TDs Passing................. 17 15
TOTAL OFFENSE................. 4170 3988
Total Plays................. 800 872
Average Per Play............ 5.2 4.6
Average Per Game............ 320.8 306.8
KICK RETURNS: #-YARDS......... 36-642 47-803
PUNT RETURNS: #-YARDS......... 40-354 30-200
INT RETURNS: #-YARDS.......... 14-180 19-199
KICK RETURN AVERAGE........... 17.8 17.1
PUNT RETURN AVERAGE........... 8.9 6.7
INT RETURN AVERAGE............ 12.9 10.5
FUMBLES-LOST.................. 16-8 17-11
PENALTIES-YARDS............... 101-839 72-681
Average Per Game............ 64.5 52.4
PUNTS-YARDS................... 75-2598 76-3010
Average Per Punt............ 34.6 39.6
Net punt average............ 32.0 34.9
TIME OF POSSESSION/GAME....... 28:20 31:33
3RD-DOWN CONVERSIONS.......... 48/175 67/191
3rd-Down Pct................ 27% 35%
4TH-DOWN CONVERSIONS.......... 9/24 5/16
4th-Down Pct................ 38% 31%
SACKS BY-YARDS................ 32-188 31-197
MISC YARDS.................... 21 27
TOUCHDOWNS SCORED............. 32 34
FIELD GOALS-ATTEMPTS.......... 12-15 15-20
PAT-ATTEMPTS.................. 25-25 29-29
ATTENDANCE.................... 89309 105853
Games/Avg Per Game.......... 7/12758 6/17642
Neutral Site Games.......... 0/0

SCORE BY QUARTERS 1st 2nd 3rd 4th Total
-------------------- --- --- --- --- ---
Montana State....... 62 78 59 62 - 261
Opponents........... 58 61 80 87 - 286





Different people have different philosophies and thus will interpret events diferently. I personally love sitting in the stands listening to the comments from fans around me. I've been at games where if we run on first and second downs (trying to shove it down their throat and provide a little game clock management). Inevitably, I'll hear people start to groan about being so predictable; "pass more Bailey you moron". At other times we'll be utilizing our "spread" offense and its four or five receiver sets. Suddenly people start saying "run more Bailey you moron"

I've talked to several Griz fans who went to the UMASS game. One of the most consistent comments I've heard is how they mixed up their play calling all game long. Did they start to rely on the run heavily in the fourth quarter. Absolutely, Montana's defense had been on the field for almost all of the second half and they were gassed; now run it down their throats which is what they did.

The first four games this year all I could read was that we needed to lengthen the field and throw more down field because all Cory was doing was throwing the out pass that Bailey MUST have been calling; "come on Bailey call for a long pass you moron" Now at the end of the season all we talk about is how we should have used the short out passes and short game more because all we did was throw the ball long; "come on Bailey utilize the short passing game you moron"

How many times this year did we see receivers wide open on plays where they did not get the ball? Is this Bailey's fault during the game for somehow getting the word to Jack/Cory to only throw the ball where he did? Use the tight end more.

I know there's a certain level of sarcasm to my post. But, it's because I keep seeing people spin the playcalling into some kind of negative. Look at the stats. We were almost even in our pass/run play selection this year. When it comes to the passing game, we go where our QB takes us. Any of you who have went to Krames QBC meetings or Coach's Corner in my case knows this. Kramer would pull his hair out if he had any at the number of times we didn't get the ball to a wide open guy this year. Is this wrong play calling? No! It's a lack of execution by one very important part of our offense; the quarterback.

As to the running game, I love our running backs. I like the end around play as it tends to confuse defenders as to who is getting the ball. I like the off tackle stuff. I like the sweeps with pulling guards and tackles. One thing I just don't see us being is a pound it down your throat kind of team in which we attack the middle of the line. A couple of reasons come to mind. First off, we are a spread offense which means no fullback for a lead blocker (I personally think this is a very big aspect if you want to have success in this area). We run with one and two right end sets. But, again, this is where going off tackle is going to produce the most rewarding results.

This may be where my personality comes into effect in how I evaluate certain playcalls. But, I like it when Don takes a chance with something like the end around option pass (they had practiced it ALL year long). How many times have we seen a swing in momentum and murmured to ourselves "go for the throat". That first play in the fourth quarter was an attempt at that. It didn't work this time. But, arguably a similar play jump started our six game win streak when Taito completed a TD pass to Wheaton (his first college pass ever and it worked out ok didn't it?). I think we're pissed because the play was not executed well and ended horribly. But seriously, there's been enough of it at college and pro levels that no one should be sitting here harassing the man about it.

Here's another example of different people taking different perspectives. Do you remember in the NC game on Friday night with about seven minutes left in the game and UMASS had the ball on their own 35 and it was 4th and about a foot? There were four guys standing around watching that game and one of them said at this point in the game you have to go for it here? What? Are you kidding me? There's 22 minutes left in the game, you're down by only one touchdown and the ball's on your own 35? No way! Never! Except, they did go for it!

So, criticize away and come up with ideas on how to improve this team. But, take a good look at those stats before you do so. Think about how well do you really know Bailey's system and the responsibilities of the players before and during the play to interpret events that effect their actions.

I look forward to everyone's thoughts.

My suggestion to the staff is to concentrate on developing QB's and WR's who are four and five year players for us. I think it's a very tall order for transfers in these positions to come in and get a grasp of what is expected of them quickly enough to have solid Septembers where we win the games we should.

barechestcat wrote:How many times this year did we see receivers wide open on plays where they did not get the ball? Is this Bailey's fault during the game for somehow getting the word to Jack/Cory to only throw the ball where he did? Use the tight end more.

That was my perception as well-I even remember Tyler Lulay doing jumping jacks in the endzone in the Furman game (Rolovich ended up throwing it away).

Maybe we need a little more seasoning on the offensive line? In the App State game the o line clearly got dominated. If we can give whoever is QB just a few more 10ths of a second how would we do?

Ok
I do not have average statistics to work with, but consider the Cats had one of the best defensives in the league, the offense needs to improve on the following highlighted areas.

TEAM STATISTICS MSU OPP
--------------------------------------------------------
SCORING....................... 261 286
Points Per Game............. 20.1 22.0
FIRST DOWNS................... 194 216
Rushing..................... 60 97
Passing..................... 119 105
Penalty..................... 15 14
RUSHING YARDAGE..............1230 1560
Yards gained rushing........ 1596 1894
Yards lost rushing.......... 366 334
Rushing Attempts............ 390 484
Average Per Rush............ 3.2 3.2
Average Per Game............ 94.6 120.0
TDs Rushing................. 13 18
PASSING YARDAGE............... 2940 2428
Att-Comp-Int................ 410-224-19 388-203-14
Average Per Pass............ 7.2 6.3
Average Per Catch........... 13.1 12.0
Average Per Game............ 226.2 186.8
TDs Passing................. 17 15
TOTAL OFFENSE................. 4170 3988
Total Plays................. 800 872
Average Per Play............ 5.2 4.6
Average Per Game............ 320.8 306.8
KICK RETURNS: #-YARDS..... 36-642 47-803
PUNT RETURNS: #-YARDS.....40-354 30-200
INT RETURNS: #-YARDS........14-180 19-199
KICK RETURN AVERAGE.........17.8 17.1
PUNT RETURN AVERAGE........8.9 6.7
INT RETURN AVERAGE...........12.9 10.5
FUMBLES-LOST.................. 16-8 17-11
PENALTIES-YARDS............... 101-839 72-681
Average Per Game............ 64.5 52.4
PUNTS-YARDS................... 75-2598 76-3010
Average Per Punt............ 34.6 39.6
Net punt average............ 32.0 34.9
TIME OF POSSESSION/GAME..28:20 31:33
3RD-DOWN CONVERSIONS....48/175 67/191
3rd-Down Pct................ 27% 35%
4TH-DOWN CONVERSIONS....9/24 5/16
4th-Down Pct................ 38% 31%
SACKS BY-YARDS................ 32-188 31-197
MISC YARDS.................... 21 27
TOUCHDOWNS SCORED........32 34
FIELD GOALS-ATTEMPTS......12-15 15-20
PAT-ATTEMPTS.................. 25-25 29-29
ATTENDANCE.................... 89309 105853
Games/Avg Per Game.......... 7/12758 6/17642
Neutral Site Games.......... 0/0

SCORE BY QUARTERS 1st 2nd 3rd 4th Total
-------------------- --- --- --- --- ---
Montana State....... 62 78 59 62 - 261
Opponents........... 58 61 80 87 - 286

barechestcat wrote:Here's our stats for the year to compare to Cat Grad's:


Montana State 2006 Statistics
Montana State Overall Team Statistics (as of Dec 03, 2006)
All games

TEAM STATISTICS MSU OPP
--------------------------------------------------------
SCORING....................... 261 286
Points Per Game............. 20.1 22.0
FIRST DOWNS................... 194 216
Rushing..................... 60 97
Passing..................... 119 105
Penalty..................... 15 14
RUSHING YARDAGE............... 1230 1560
Yards gained rushing........ 1596 1894
Yards lost rushing.......... 366 334
Rushing Attempts............ 390 484
Average Per Rush............ 3.2 3.2
Average Per Game............ 94.6 120.0
TDs Rushing................. 13 18
PASSING YARDAGE............... 2940 2428
Att-Comp-Int................ 410-224-19 388-203-14
Average Per Pass............ 7.2 6.3
Average Per Catch........... 13.1 12.0
Average Per Game............ 226.2 186.8
TDs Passing................. 17 15
TOTAL OFFENSE................. 4170 3988
Total Plays................. 800 872
Average Per Play............ 5.2 4.6
Average Per Game............ 320.8 306.8
KICK RETURNS: #-YARDS......... 36-642 47-803
PUNT RETURNS: #-YARDS......... 40-354 30-200
INT RETURNS: #-YARDS.......... 14-180 19-199
KICK RETURN AVERAGE........... 17.8 17.1
PUNT RETURN AVERAGE........... 8.9 6.7
INT RETURN AVERAGE............ 12.9 10.5
FUMBLES-LOST.................. 16-8 17-11
PENALTIES-YARDS............... 101-839 72-681
Average Per Game............ 64.5 52.4
PUNTS-YARDS................... 75-2598 76-3010
Average Per Punt............ 34.6 39.6
Net punt average............ 32.0 34.9
TIME OF POSSESSION/GAME....... 28:20 31:33
3RD-DOWN CONVERSIONS.......... 48/175 67/191
3rd-Down Pct................ 27% 35%
4TH-DOWN CONVERSIONS.......... 9/24 5/16
4th-Down Pct................ 38% 31%
SACKS BY-YARDS................ 32-188 31-197
MISC YARDS.................... 21 27
TOUCHDOWNS SCORED............. 32 34
FIELD GOALS-ATTEMPTS.......... 12-15 15-20
PAT-ATTEMPTS.................. 25-25 29-29
ATTENDANCE.................... 89309 105853
Games/Avg Per Game.......... 7/12758 6/17642
Neutral Site Games.......... 0/0

SCORE BY QUARTERS 1st 2nd 3rd 4th Total
-------------------- --- --- --- --- ---
Montana State....... 62 78 59 62 - 261
Opponents........... 58 61 80 87 - 286





Different people have different philosophies and thus will interpret events diferently. I personally love sitting in the stands listening to the comments from fans around me. I've been at games where if we run on first and second downs (trying to shove it down their throat and provide a little game clock management). Inevitably, I'll hear people start to groan about being so predictable; "pass more Bailey you moron". At other times we'll be utilizing our "spread" offense and its four or five receiver sets. Suddenly people start saying "run more Bailey you moron"

I've talked to several Griz fans who went to the UMASS game. One of the most consistent comments I've heard is how they mixed up their play calling all game long. Did they start to rely on the run heavily in the fourth quarter. Absolutely, Montana's defense had been on the field for almost all of the second half and they were gassed; now run it down their throats which is what they did.

The first four games this year all I could read was that we needed to lengthen the field and throw more down field because all Cory was doing was throwing the out pass that Bailey MUST have been calling; "come on Bailey call for a long pass you moron" Now at the end of the season all we talk about is how we should have used the short out passes and short game more because all we did was throw the ball long; "come on Bailey utilize the short passing game you moron"

How many times this year did we see receivers wide open on plays where they did not get the ball? Is this Bailey's fault during the game for somehow getting the word to Jack/Cory to only throw the ball where he did? Use the tight end more.

I know there's a certain level of sarcasm to my post. But, it's because I keep seeing people spin the playcalling into some kind of negative. Look at the stats. We were almost even in our pass/run play selection this year. When it comes to the passing game, we go where our QB takes us. Any of you who have went to Krames QBC meetings or Coach's Corner in my case knows this. Kramer would pull his hair out if he had any at the number of times we didn't get the ball to a wide open guy this year. Is this wrong play calling? No! It's a lack of execution by one very important part of our offense; the quarterback.

As to the running game, I love our running backs. I like the end around play as it tends to confuse defenders as to who is getting the ball. I like the off tackle stuff. I like the sweeps with pulling guards and tackles. One thing I just don't see us being is a pound it down your throat kind of team in which we attack the middle of the line. A couple of reasons come to mind. First off, we are a spread offense which means no fullback for a lead blocker (I personally think this is a very big aspect if you want to have success in this area). We run with one and two right end sets. But, again, this is where going off tackle is going to produce the most rewarding results.

This may be where my personality comes into effect in how I evaluate certain playcalls. But, I like it when Don takes a chance with something like the end around option pass (they had practiced it ALL year long). How many times have we seen a swing in momentum and murmured to ourselves "go for the throat". That first play in the fourth quarter was an attempt at that. It didn't work this time. But, arguably a similar play jump started our six game win streak when Taito completed a TD pass to Wheaton (his first college pass ever and it worked out ok didn't it?). I think we're pissed because the play was not executed well and ended horribly. But seriously, there's been enough of it at college and pro levels that no one should be sitting here harassing the man about it.

Here's another example of different people taking different perspectives. Do you remember in the NC game on Friday night with about seven minutes left in the game and UMASS had the ball on their own 35 and it was 4th and about a foot? There were four guys standing around watching that game and one of them said at this point in the game you have to go for it here? What? Are you kidding me? There's 22 minutes left in the game, you're down by only one touchdown and the ball's on your own 35? No way! Never! Except, they did go for it!

So, criticize away and come up with ideas on how to improve this team. But, take a good look at those stats before you do so. Think about how well do you really know Bailey's system and the responsibilities of the players before and during the play to interpret events that effect their actions.

I look forward to everyone's thoughts.

My suggestion to the staff is to concentrate on developing QB's and WR's who are four and five year players for us. I think it's a very tall order for transfers in these positions to come in and get a grasp of what is expected of them quickly enough to have solid Septembers where we win the games we should.

Very possibly one of the best posts I've seen on BN.

I'll second that, well done!

crazycat wrote:

Bay Area Cat wrote:

Hell's Bells wrote:id take a look at what montana ran in 1995

I was hoping that people could give some specific compare and contrast analysis between what MSU has ran in recent years to what the posters think an ideal offensive coordinator would do.

I think we can all say something like "Do what [successful team] does," but I am hoping we can dig a little deeper and tap some of the knowledgable football minds on this board (and, admittedly, mine is not in that category, so I won't even pretend to have the answers) to come up with come constructive criticisms of the offensive schemes we have seen in the past.

And specific to the Griz offense of 95 ... why doesn't anybody run that offense anymore? I suspect that the capitalistic market of football decided that it didn't work well once the defenses figured it out, so although it was revolutionary to some degree, it may not have become an evolutionary piece of the conventional wisdom of college football coaching.

That offense always runs into trouble when the opposing defense has speed in the secondary. UM's receivers had trouble getting open against teams like Marshall, Y-town and eventually BSC teams caught on. This is also why the BSC has gone from the aerial circus to the grind it out style.

I don' think the O needs an overhaul. MSU's offense needs to be able to (or have the players to) run a couple unconventional plays out of its base offense. I don't think we ran the QB draw once this year. It's a great play (with a guy Lulay or Meyer), but we didn't have the personnel. We would also find success with hand-off option, such as ASU ran. No, I don't think we can run it like they did, but it's a nice play that keeps defenses on their toes. We were way too predictable is what I'm saying. That was partially due to having a QB that wasn't very mobile.

Plays like the reciever pass/halfback pass are great in offenses like ours that are so conventional. Had Evin Groves developed into the player we all thought he'd be, he would've perfect for plays like that. But they have to be executed properly and the go-to guy has to run them. MJ was a great choice for that play vs. ASU, but he obvioulsy wasn't well versed. He'd run several reverses this year. He didn't sell the run on that play at all and when the receiver wasn't open (double-teamed) he threw it anyway, and he underthrew it. Execution is dependent upon practice, which I don't think we did much of for that play prior to MJ's nightmare at ASU. Therefore poor coaching decision.

The more conventional you are, the better unconventional play works.

Very good point on the QB draw. It is about personell and we do not have the QB's to run that play maybe even at all anymore? However, next year with Desin we may be able to run some plays like App. State runs with Desin in as the RB or QB etc. and make teams play us outside and inside. That is how App. State cuts you apart, they make you spread your LB's out outside to guard against the option then they slice you right up the middle with power running. Very nice 1-2 combo. The 2004 Griz could do the same thing because they could get outside with Oches and Heidelburger always made the LB's split out wider and then the Griz could pound you up the middle. This next year we may have some personel who can give us this look with Desin/Mason etc.

I agree with the first, cursory comparisons; however, one glaring exception to our 390 rushes have to be the 32 sacks we gave up--most coming late in the year. We questioned collectively whether Jack was being told to eat the ball and take the sack rather than throw it away (and definitely quit forcing it.) Still, it looks more balanced than I thought it was even subtracting the sacks from the rushes and adding them to the 410 pass plays. All that would mean to me is we intended to run 358 times and throw it 442 times and Coach said we're going to pass first.