It's Time for a Fan Rebellion

[doebrmn]

Can hardly believe I started this topic, but it has to be said.

For years, I have attended most Friz home games (as well as most Cat home games), since I live in Missoula and have watched every game of each (live or on TV) for the last three years and have always believed the Friz had the worst fans I had ever seen. I always believed Cat fans were better because we would go to watch our team play and stand behind them no matter what. And there were/have been a lot of lean years, but the fans have always stuck with the Cats.

The Friz on the other hand boo everytime they don't gain a first down. They whine everytime the other team scores. They constantly bitch about Hauck because he doesn't open up the offense, even though he is winning, has led them to the playoffs every year and to one NC game.

After today, sitting and watching the Cats play, I have come to the conclusion that maybe I am wrong. Maybe the Friz fans aren't has bad as I have always believed them to be. Maybe the Cat fans just need to wake up.

How long are we going to accept what is being put out on the field. I would rather watch the Cats play and lose every week then watch the Friz. I can accept losing to more talented teams. I can accept a bad bounce once in awhile leading to a loss. However, I can no longer accept the mistakes in coaching, the mental errors and the lack of discipline.

Say what you want about the Friz. I hate them more then anyone. But ask yourself the following:

Do they give up 35 yard completions with a team backed up on the 1 yard line because a DC doesn't put any pressure on the QB forcing a hot read. NO.

Do they give up 25 yard receptions on 3rd and 15 after two tackles for losses. NO.

Do they commit penalties on 3rd and 4 resulting in 3rd and 14, resulting in touchdowns being brought back, resulting in lost Field Goal opportunities. NO.

Do they send out only one receiver on a pattern and when the Defense smells out the pass, still throw the ball. NO.

Do they drop interceptions that kill a scoring drive inside the 20. NO.

Do they use 6 minutes when they are behind by two scores, continuning to huddle after each play and fail to score. NO.

It is time for change. If Kramer was really doing his job, the DC should have been fired on the field after the 35 yard competion. There is simply no excuse. If you understand Football, you understand that with your opponents back to the end zone, you put pressure on to force a quick decision and not allow deep routes. If they get ten, so be it. 70 to 90% of the time, they won't. The QB has to hit his hot read, the 5 yard slant and its time to punt.

If that wasn't enough, he should have been fired when the team is within one score, have the opponent 3rd and 15, but rushes three lineman with no outside contain, allowing the QB to roll to his right, and complete a 25 yard pass.

It's as simple as that. The change has to be made, because the Players on the field were doing their jobs, but were not put in position to be successful. Kramer needs to send the message or he needs to go himself.

The same has to be done with the mental mistakes. The message has to be sent that if you make the mistakes, you simply are not going to be on the field. Sure, it can happen to anyone once, but it is happening game in, game out. It's time to make the statement. Because if you don't, the Cat program is doomed to be third tier program for ever. The fans simply are not going to take it anymore. They are not going to put out the money, to watch the same mistakes over and over and over. The fans will put out the money to watch the Cats give 100% and come up short every week, but they simply won't put up with what the Coaching staff is putting on the Field today.

So as much as I hate to say it, maybe it's time to be a little more like the Friz Fans and let the the coaching staff know that the line has been drawn. The mistakes that are being made will no longer be tolerated. Get it fixed or get out.

[skizm]

Grizzly ('Griz', short...though a wasted convenience for some) fans can't be called the worst. There are just more of them. For the past 10+ years, Missoula has become used to winning. Call it selfish, I say it's just a bonus, but expectations become high for solid teams. Fans will always broadcast distaste for what their team's doing when it's not up to par (face it, for UM that's meant making first downs.) Now I'm not a fan of booing myself, but if Bobcat fans tend to do it in fewer scenarios...there's my reasoning for ya.

Sorry if that was blatant. I'm really a fan of both teams, but I wanted to clear that up with my perspective. It's the simple truth, really.

As for the Cat organization right now. I don't know what to say or do about it...I'm certainly no expert. Who to blame??? Something huge needs to be done, because this is certainly unacceptable. I'm not a fan of random complaint either...maybe if I was a bigger Cat fan I would have worried more for the season without Lulay, but IMO there's little right to complain now, especially if you were one of the many fans who hopped on the bandwagon after Col. This is the same team.

[BozCatFan]

Fans have set a precident for being way too patient with coaches here in Bozeman. Right now, I am shocked at the number of fans who still want to give Kramer a chance. There isn't a better job in college football because nobody seems to demand accountability. Where else are fans happy with a losing record after 7 years? Perhaps if Kramer gets another job, I'll apply. It seems all that is required is to be a nice guy.

Good programs don't rebuild, they reload. Good programs have depth and can recover from graduation, injuries, and poor play because guys are fighting hard for playing time. Good programs don't lose games at home they should win, particularly three in a row. I see none of these signs in our FB program.

Forget it... I'm almost as embarassed by fellow cat fans on this board who accept this and give excuses after excuse as I am in the coaches.

[Platinumcat]

Fans have set a precident for being way too patient with coaches here in Bozeman. Right now, I am shocked at the number of fans who still want to give Kramer a chance. There isn't a better job in college football because nobody seems to demand accountability. Where else are fans happy with a losing record after 7 years? Perhaps if Kramer gets another job, I'll apply. It seems all that is required is to be a nice guy.

Good programs don't rebuild, they reload. Good programs have depth and can recover from graduation, injuries, and poor play because guys are fighting hard for playing time. Good programs don't lose games at home they should win, particularly three in a row. I see none of these signs in our FB program.

Forget it... I'm almost as embarassed by fellow cat fans on this board who accept this and give excuses after excuse as I am in the coaches.

BozCatFan,
1) How long does it take to get a program where you think it should be when it starts in the aboslute cellar(which is where our program was six years ago)? Your comment about a losing record is laughable....do you remember what this program was like just that short number of years ago? You are honestly going to sit there on your pedestal and pull that card? JOKE!
2) Get something straight, this program is still on it's way to becoming a solid program. That takes time. Heck the Griz have seen 12+ years of flourishment and they still need to bring in drop downs to take care of weak areas in their team. We've been winning BSC co-titles, gone to the playoffs twice in the last six years, been nationally ranked a lot. And yet, you seem to think that this isn't enough? So, what is? A National Championship in that six year period? From where it came from?
3) I realize that the last three weeks have made it hard to remember the good things that have happened to this program the last 3-4 years. But, step back and get a perspective. Why are we sitting here arguing over this team not doing what we want? BECAUSE KRAMER HAS PUT US THERE!
4) Do some changes need to be made? YES! But, I just don't think it needs to come from a coaching perspective. Players need to be sat. Game strategies need to change. But calling for a coach's head after four games in a season? NO! Now, if the players weren't out bustin' their a** for the coach on Saturday, that would be different; but they are.
I find this line of thinking akin to being in sales and having the boss put your job at stake because you had a bad quarter...even though you have brought the company's overall sales up dramatically over the past six years.

I value you as a fellow bobcat fan. I welcome your response.

[G.W.Bush]

Kramer has not brought the Cats out of the cellar... He made the Cats 0-11 in 2000. He did this by cutting over half of the team he inherited (40 return players in the fall of 2000). For example, he pulled Joe Baker's scholarship. Joe was an All-Conference LB, who was a 3.75 gpa student, why would Kramer cut a player like this? Kramer brought in players like Marcel Dunn who Kramer said was "one of the best athletes MSU ever had." Marcel flunked out of school in one semester (didn't pass a single class in the fall). Anyone remeber Marcel? Kramer sees no problem cutting players that he has no use for; i.e. Copack (sp). Kramer has no loyalties to his players, so why should he expect loyalty from his fans that support the STUDENT-ATHLETES? I am VERY interested to know how many of Kramer's recruits have left the program with a degree. Obviously he isn't meeting the NCAA's requirements (we loss the maximum number of scholarships a football program could in the first year of the rule's implementation). So I ask; do we want to keep a coach around that isn’t winning games or helping our athletes receive their degrees?

[BozCatFan]

Thanks for standing up for what you believe. I'm seriously grateful that someone had some courage to actually put their thoughts down instead of just make hasty accusations.

Everyone has different opinions, and that is the beauty of this forum. I don't know everything about football or this team, so this type of healthy converstaion is a good thing. I'm sure there are elements that I had not considered and there is a good chance that my thoughts won't change anyone's mind, but here it goes...

Here is a reply to your questions:

1. Whether or not the program was in the cellar is debatable. I think we were in about the same shape as we are now. We have actually have not had a very solid program for 20 years. I think coaches should have 4-5 years to build winning program. The first two they are players who remain from the previous coach, after that their players should be integrated and coaches should be held responsible for how they do from then on.

2. IMO this team simply does not show signs of improvement. They graduated a number of very talented players but are relying heavily on transfers who will be gone after next season. We have won co-titles...thats not good enough. Kramer has done a fantastic job of beating the Griz and breaking down their schemes. I can't argue his success there, but I want to win the BSC outright. Our post-season performances have been meagher at best. I want to dominate home games and win at least one playoff game.

3. I realize that the last three weeks have made it hard to remember the good things that have happened to this program the last 3-4 years. But, step back and get a perspective. Why are we sitting here arguing over this team not doing what we want? BECAUSE KRAMER HAS PUT US THERE! [/quote]

I'd like someone to point out a stretch of weeks where teams have feared playing the Bobcats since Kramer has been here. I think there were a few exceptional players who carried this team that we probably won't see the likes of anytime soon. One of the things Kramer has failed at, IMO, is recruiting players who can carry the torch and lead this team. We have won a lot of games by just a few points, and not had many overwhelming victories.

[quote] 4) Do some changes need to be made? YES! But, I just don't think it needs to come from a coaching perspective. Players need to be sat. Game strategies need to change. But calling for a coach's head after four games in a season? NO! Now, if the players weren't out bustin' their a** for the coach on Saturday, that would be different; but they are.
I find this line of thinking akin to being in sales and having the boss put your job at stake because you had a bad quarter...even though you have brought the company's overall sales up dramatically over the past six years.[/quote]

I would be more interested in supporting Kramer if he laid out a plan of how he is going to right this ship and went public with it. He is on the hot seat. His optimism is great, but what is he doing to fix it? So far I hear mostly excuses and "things will change" and nothing has. As the head guy he MUST be held responsible for everything that goes on in that program. He gets paid a substantial salary to do this. If he has assistants that are not getting the job done, which I think there are, than he needs to get rid of them. If there are players not getting the job done than he needs to get rid of them. If he is not getting the job done than we need to get rid of him. You mention sales people. I lost a sales job when I didn't meet numbers for ONE quarter. The only stipulation on my job was sales volume, and after one quarter of missing my target by a few hundred dollars the chopping block came from a corporate office in another state. I knew that the position was very demanding and this would happen if I didn't make it. I was willing to take the chance because the financial reward if I achieved the goal was a six figure income with one of the most solid companies in the country if I made the numbers for one year. Those in sales either make it big by performing or get replaced.

Look, I think Kramer has some good qualities. However I am not content until we win, win, win, and win some more. I want opposing teams to fear playing in Bozeman and they simply don't. I want opposing teams to know that if they are going to have to play their best just to stay in the game and have a chance to win. Is it a lot to ask? Definitely. Can it be done? Absolutely. Is Kramer going to get us there? Perhaps, but I think he has taken us as far as he can. I think it is time to make a change and get someone new.

Everyone has different goals for the program, and different ways to achieve those goals. For some, just beating the Griz is enough. For others like me, it isn't. I understand and respect opinions of those like yourself who think Kramer is their guy. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the Cats run the table and win the BSC. Nothing would be better for the entire program.

I cannot argue that Kramer has done some good things for the school and program, I just think it is time to give someone else a chance to take us to the NEXT level. He has had 6 years and not gotten us there. Next coach please...

[bobcatgrad2005]

GW Wrote:

[/quote]Kramer has not brought the Cats out of the cellar... He made the Cats 0-11 in 2000. He did this by cutting over half of the team he inherited (40 return players in the fall of 2000). For example, he pulled Joe Baker's scholarship. Joe was an All-Conference LB, who was a 3.75 gpa student, why would Kramer cut a player like this? Kramer brought in players like Marcel Dunn who Kramer said was "one of the best athletes MSU ever had." Marcel flunked out of school in one semester (didn't pass a single class in the fall). Anyone remeber Marcel? Kramer sees no problem cutting players that he has no use for; i.e. Copack (sp). Kramer has no loyalties to his players, so why should he expect loyalty from his fans that support the STUDENT-ATHLETES? I am VERY interested to know how many of Kramer's recruits have left the program with a degree. Obviously he isn't meeting the NCAA's requirements (we loss the maximum number of scholarships a football program could in the first year of the rule's implementation). So I ask; do we want to keep a coach around that isn’t winning games or helping our athletes receive their degrees?

Regarding student athletes. Of the 55 or so guys who have made it to their senior year of eligiablity for Montana State, only 3 guys have yet to finish their degrees. Beau Clark (although he may have finished, and I am not aware), Travis Lualy, and Jeff Bolton. I'd call that an admirable record for any coach.

Does this reflect the number of guys who have come in and out of the program? No. But, remember what life is like between 18-22. Guy change their mind about how hard they want to work at school, or football. They decide its more important to go home and ranch, work, or move back to their girlfriends. I think its unfair to asses a coach through the number of students who come into the program vs. come out. Kramer has advised good players to retire after injuries so that they can move their legs in 5 years. Ryan Cogley, Zack Wolf, and Grant Elliot are good examples.

[G.W.Bush]

I guess I was a little upset about the fact that the Cats football team lost the highest number of scholarships possible, and only 4 other NCAA football programs suffered the same fate. If we indeed have only had 50 seniors in 7 years there are even more questions that need to be answered about this programs student-athletes. Here is a question that some poster might know; how many 4-5 year seniors has Kramer graduated from his program? I would be VERY surprised if it were more than 35 players (5 a year sounds about right). If I recall, in 2003 there were only four 4-5 year seniors and in 2004 I think there was only one.

[Hell's Bells]

Kramer has not brought the Cats out of the cellar... He made the Cats 0-11 in 2000. He did this by cutting over half of the team he inherited (40 return players in the fall of 2000). For example, he pulled Joe Baker's scholarship. Joe was an All-Conference LB, who was a 3.75 gpa student, why would Kramer cut a player like this? Kramer brought in players like Marcel Dunn who Kramer said was "one of the best athletes MSU ever had." Marcel flunked out of school in one semester (didn't pass a single class in the fall). Anyone remeber Marcel? Kramer sees no problem cutting players that he has no use for; i.e. Copack (sp). Kramer has no loyalties to his players, so why should he expect loyalty from his fans that support the STUDENT-ATHLETES? I am VERY interested to know how many of Kramer's recruits have left the program with a degree. Obviously he isn't meeting the NCAA's requirements (we loss the maximum number of scholarships a football program could in the first year of the rule's implementation). So I ask; do we want to keep a coach around that isn’t winning games or helping our athletes receive their degrees?

1) what was our record the year before Kramer. I belive we won somthing like 3 games.
2) Heysell did not have many winning seasons, and when he did most of his wins were in the preseason
3) Heysell did not win any BSC championships period. close on a couple of occasions but close only counts in horsehoes...
4) he can cut/recruit whoever he wants to. do you really think that joe baker would have made a big impact on the 0-11 team? do you think that anyone else would have made an impact? if anything we would have won 1 or 2 more games which, in a 0-11 season, does not mean much

[doebrmn]

As expected, I think many have missed the point of this post. Losing games is not the problem. I have stood behind the Cats for over 20 years and never waivered in my support. But what I saw yesterday has really started to cause me problems.

It's not losing, its the mistakes that Fans just won't put up with anymore. I don't expect the Cats to win every game. I expect the Cats to give up less than 35 yards when it has an opponent 3rd and long at their own 1. This is basic fundemental football that is lacking.

I expect players covering the gunner on the punt team to get their head in front on a block, not reach out with their hands.

I expect third down plays to be run without offsides, illegal procedure and without holding.

And finally, I expect when the Cats have a team third and long, they maintain outside contain and don't allow a QB to roll out of the pocket for a 25 yard completion.

This is basis, basic, basic football and we are seriously lacking it.

I don't know if its attitued, discipline or lack of mental accuman. But something has to change or we will lose the fan base we have, lose the money necessary to build the program and become a third tier program.

Its not a conscience thing, but ask yourself, will people make that 200 mile round trip to continue to see this type of play. NO. They will just start finding other priorities and the Cats will slip on the list. Will television continue to broadcast the games, when advertisers won't pay because the lack of ratings.

We had a chance after CU to really make a difference in the program, and completely failed.

I think Kramer needs to send the message this week. The DC has to be demoted (Kramer should take over the Defense) and let everyone know, the mistakes are no longer accepted. If not, there is a good chance that Peter will send that message to Kramer at the end of the season.

Sorry to be so negative, but Kramer is on the hot seat. He is very loyal and that has really come back to bite him this season.

As far the Friz fan that wants to say this is the same team at UC, you are a moron. Having been there and watched that team, this team is not even close. That is mainly due to the loss of Groves. Nobody wanted to admit it, but that loss was devastating. Taito just doesn't have the burst. Similar to Dominick. Mason has shown that burst and the Cats need to make that change. Once Groves went out, too much pressure was put on Corey and he tried to do things he isn't ready for. OC, step up to the plate.

Finally, we are now down six starters facing a road trip. If the Cat fans aren't ready to panic, its clear they will accept pretty much anything.

[Weltercat]

As much as it pains me to say it, the friz bandwagoners that come over here and imply that we are the “University of California at Bozeman” are right. Not that I have anything against players from California, I just think that it is not the way to build the foundation of a football program in Bozeman Montana. Most players from intercity California turn their noses up at the thought of going to Bozeman and we get them after they wash out of some other program or have no other options. In the mean time, most of the Montana kids are encouraged to walk on and earn a scholarship.

I may be wrong here but I believe Adam Cordiero and Kane Ioane were recruited in Mike Kramer’s first recruiting class. Keep in mind that he found them during the midst of that horrible loosing streak to the friz. My point is this; the kids are out there and we must win the recruiting battle within our own state. We should win or loose with kids from Montana. Make MSU Montana’s team again. I am absolutely convinced that there is plenty of kids’ right here at home that can compete at the big sky level. Our program will be second rate to the friz until we win the recruiting battle here within the state. It takes a lot of guts to do that because coaches always see those JC guys saving the immediate season, but that is no way to build a program. Mike Price at UTEP is a classic example of this. He may put together a good team for a year or two or a game or two but he has never build a solid program anywhere with all the transfers.

I am from Butte, I don’t consider myself ancient and I can remember when nearly everyone there was a cat fan and the high school players went to MSU. I no longer live there but from what I hear people in Butte are voting Republican and sending there kids to school in Missoula. I think there are a lot of old dead miners rolling around in there graves.

I think MSU is still suffering from the bad karma of getting rid of Sonny Lubick. If he was still coaching the cats the Butte guys would still be going to Bozeman and Montana Kids would be getting first crack at the scholarships. He is the toast of the town in Fort Collins Colorado and they have a winning program.

[WeedKillinCat]

One would have to wonder where Kramer's heart is at after he was a runner up at Idaho....He was close to getting the job and lost out to Erickson...

[BozCatFan]

Weltercat, I have often thought of a curse from firing Lubick as well. It doesn't get too much better in football than Sonny.

[FootballFan]

Adam Cordeiro was a Hysell recruit.

I am amazed at the fact that everyone blames the 0-11 on Hysell.

Hysell took over a program that haddn't had a winning season in 7 years (1984 team).

When Hysell took over the program the league was much stronger (Boise State, Idaho)

Hysell was still able to win 3 games his first year, and 7 his second year.

Kramer took over after a poor 1999 season, yet still a team which played the Grizzlies for the confernce championship in 97 and 98!

Kramer's 0 - 11 cannot be blamed on Hysell, for christ sake they lost to Humboldt, which had lost to Montana Tech the previous week! Mitch White was a running back for Humboldt that Kramer ran off from MSU. He rushed for almost 200 yards against the cats.

Kramer was the OC and the perhaps the worst OC in Big Sky history. He was the OC his first year at Eastern Washington and was told by the AD Dick Zornes after that season he either give up the OC or get fired. He learned nothing from that experiernce he came to MSU.

Who were some future stars on that 0 - 11 team? Cordiero, Montoya, R. Johnson, Turnquist, Swaggert. Not bad players for a program at deepest depths!! All Hysell recruits!!

Yes that 2000 team wasn't going to win a championship, but they sure a hell should have won at least 3 or 4 games!! No one in here could differently. Hysell's fault!! Wake up!!

Kramer won't be fired at the end of this season, regardless of the outcome. He will have to make some changes with his staff, and will have to produce next season or he will be fired. I believe that is fair.

His 3 victories over the griz have allowed him this cushion. Even though he was the coach of 4 of the most embarrassing losses in MSU history. Humbodt, Homecoming loss to Central Washington, Chadron, and UC Davis. Even though he has had more off the field issues with his coaching staff than any other head coach in MSU history. O'brien's fight with a former player, Christoffs DUI, Rushings assault charge against an MSU student, O'Briens drug operation. He will surrive this season, but I truly believe he will fire Bailey and Christoff if the defense doesn't come around.

[Cledus]

Maybe all we need is something as simple as a petition citing specific examples of idiocy and bad decision making and turn it in to Peter Fields.

Anybody remember the web site FireRonZook.com? The Zooker wound up actually getting fired from Florida because one pissed off fan who had his chit together put together such a convincing argument the web site caught the attention of SI, ESPN, and others. This brought closer scrutiny to all of Zook's mistakes.

Whatever we do, I think it's clear we somehow need to organize and take action.

[MSU01]

I'm sorry, but this thread is just hilarious. We are not Florida...5 or 6 vocal people from a message board aren't going to be able to organize enough to get a head football coach fired. I'm sure Fields will make his own decision on Kramer's future after the season. Organizing "rebellions" with 7 games left on the schedule accomplishes nothing, but go ahead and try. FireMikeKramer.com will join my list of time-wasting websites to look at when I'm bored at work.

[couloir41]

football fan...that is the most reasonable assesment i have read so far...

kramer will be here for at least one or two more years...for exactly (sp) the reasons you cite...

if the season ends with a loosing record and a loss to the griz and he shuffles or rebuilds his staff he will have at least another year to prove his reorganization was effective...after all kramer is learning also...learning that loyalty that is detremental to oneself is not always a positive character trait...often loyalty to a person or principle is sometimes used as an excuse to avoid making incredibily difficult decisions...

also...i believe for the university to remain above the dissention and maintain the appearance of a very high level of integrity regarding coaching terminations they are obligated to give kramer every opportunity to hang himself...

anyway good post...

[GreenDay17]

Adam Cordeiro was a Hysell recruit.

I am amazed at the fact that everyone blames the 0-11 on Hysell.

Hysell took over a program that haddn't had a winning season in 7 years (1984 team).

When Hysell took over the program the league was much stronger (Boise State, Idaho)

Hysell was still able to win 3 games his first year, and 7 his second year.

Kramer took over after a poor 1999 season, yet still a team which played the Grizzlies for the confernce championship in 97 and 98!

Kramer's 0 - 11 cannot be blamed on Hysell, for christ sake they lost to Humboldt, which had lost to Montana Tech the previous week! Mitch White was a running back for Humboldt that Kramer ran off from MSU. He rushed for almost 200 yards against the cats.

Kramer was the OC and the perhaps the worst OC in Big Sky history. He was the OC his first year at Eastern Washington and was told by the AD Dick Zornes after that season he either give up the OC or get fired. He learned nothing from that experiernce he came to MSU.

Who were some future stars on that 0 - 11 team? Cordiero, Montoya, R. Johnson, Turnquist, Swaggert. Not bad players for a program at deepest depths!! All Hysell recruits!!

Yes that 2000 team wasn't going to win a championship, but they sure a hell should have won at least 3 or 4 games!! No one in here could differently. Hysell's fault!! Wake up!!

Kramer won't be fired at the end of this season, regardless of the outcome. He will have to make some changes with his staff, and will have to produce next season or he will be fired. I believe that is fair.

His 3 victories over the griz have allowed him this cushion. Even though he was the coach of 4 of the most embarrassing losses in MSU history. Humbodt, Homecoming loss to Central Washington, Chadron, and UC Davis. Even though he has had more off the field issues with his coaching staff than any other head coach in MSU history. O'brien's fight with a former player, Christoffs DUI, Rushings assault charge against an MSU student, O'Briens drug operation. He will surrive this season, but I truly believe he will fire Bailey and Christoff if the defense doesn't come around.

Additionally:

When Hysell came to MSU there were a total 5-6 offensive linemen on scholarship, with 2 of them coming off knee surgery. He had to recruit 3 JC linemen to be at MSU in spring just so the team could practice.

I remember the first day of pads in spring practice of Hysell's first year. On the first play of team drills the offense ran the ball off right tackle and gained 6 yards. All of the offensive players standing behind the drill ran into the pile, hooting and hollering about their success. I asked Kerry Pribnow what the heck all of this was about and he told me, and I quote - "that's the first time since I've been here that the offense has gained a yard running on the defense". I said "wow, that was just 6 yards - we're gonna have a lot of plays like that".

You talk about a rebuilding challenge. There is no way that what Kramer inherited (and I'm not talking about what he ended up playing with in his first fall) was anywhere as bad as that.

I am not supporting the idea that Kramer should be fired. I am, however, not going to stand by and make no comment when people discredit the efforts and improvements made during Cliff Hysell's tenure at MSU.

[Cledus]

One thing I'm not entirely clear about is how there are a number of threads and posts describing how the Cats' play sucks. Turnovers, bad blocking, etc. I notice there's hardly anybody who disagrees. Of course, it's totally cool when one of the moderators describes specifics of poor play.

Then, there's the contingent (translation: me, GWB, and a few others) who feels this poor play is simply a natural outcome of poor coaching. We are attacked, ridiculed, and called names.

Despite all that, we have made numerous valid points and we have yet to be discredited.

[ThemStinkinCats]

As much as it pains me to say it, the friz bandwagoners that come over here and imply that we are the “University of California at Bozeman” are right. Not that I have anything against players from California, I just think that it is not the way to build the foundation of a football program in Bozeman Montana. Most players from intercity California turn their noses up at the thought of going to Bozeman and we get them after they wash out of some other program or have no other options. In the mean time, most of the Montana kids are encouraged to walk on and earn a scholarship.

I may be wrong here but I believe Adam Cordiero and Kane Ioane were recruited in Mike Kramer’s first recruiting class. Keep in mind that he found them during the midst of that horrible loosing streak to the friz. My point is this; the kids are out there and we must win the recruiting battle within our own state. We should win or loose with kids from Montana. Make MSU Montana’s team again. I am absolutely convinced that there is plenty of kids’ right here at home that can compete at the big sky level. Our program will be second rate to the friz until we win the recruiting battle here within the state. It takes a lot of guts to do that because coaches always see those JC guys saving the immediate season, but that is no way to build a program. Mike Price at UTEP is a classic example of this. He may put together a good team for a year or two or a game or two but he has never build a solid program anywhere with all the transfers.

I am from Butte, I don’t consider myself ancient and I can remember when nearly everyone there was a cat fan and the high school players went to MSU. I no longer live there but from what I hear people in Butte are voting Republican and sending there kids to school in Missoula. I think there are a lot of old dead miners rolling around in there graves.

I think MSU is still suffering from the bad karma of getting rid of Sonny Lubick. If he was still coaching the cats the Butte guys would still be going to Bozeman and Montana Kids would be getting first crack at the scholarships. He is the toast of the town in Fort Collins Colorado and they have a winning program.

I've thought about this too, as a fellow Butte guy, but the Griz have one (1) Butte kid on the roster. Check the Digger's roster. There's your Butte boys.