Winning in the Trenches

[MrGoodKat]

Disclaimer: I love the Nuanez brothers. They are awesome. Their coverage is fantastic. I am so grateful that UM and MSU have Skyline Sports. This thread is not trying to make any sort of criticism regarding bias or maroon colored glasses or anything like that.

But that said, in the spirit of discussion, I am going to take issue with one of Colter's major narratives this season.

He has been making the case that Montana's build (i.e. excellent at the skill positions, mediocre on the LOS) is the better approach to winning a National Championship because you just aren't ever going to beat NDSU at their own game.

This is an unsupportable thesis.

1) To say that MSU has tried to beat the Bison at their own game and failed is true, but misleading. MSU could have and should have won last season. They didn't lose in Frisco because they were overmatched in the trenches, they lost because they came out jittery and played like crap for a half.

2) SDSU and James Madison are the two teams who have disrupted NDSU's streak of championships and both of those teams were absolutely awesome in the trenches. Yes, they had great skill talent as well (no one, including NDSU, wins chippers apart from great skill talent), but they weren't built anything like Montana is this year. Their lines were sick.

3) He points to EW to support his point, but they only won the natty before the NDSU run started and could never do it again. The excuse is made that they lost to teams that they shouldn't have, but in reality, they lost to teams who were better in the trenches. Because quality on the LOS will tend to beat quality at the skill positions.

Until and unless rule changes completely neuter the game of football, it's still a game that is most heavily impacted by how teams play in the trenches and control the line of scrimmage.

I for one am so glad that UM and MSU have swapped places from where they used to be. MSU used to be the team with weak lines and lots fireworks at skill, while UM got all the foot MT players and built awesome OL's and DL's. No longer.

[coloradocat]

I have a feeling he agrees with all of your points. He's said the first two at least a time or two. At the end of the day he likely has to spin what the griz are doing as a positive, especially based on the results so far, otherwise he'd be hated in his hometown. He can't call them a paper tiger when there's no evidence of that yet. Plus it would be fun if a different style was able to supplant the established dynasty's format so it's an easy thing to highlight and root for.

[MrGoodKat]

I have a feeling he agrees with all of your points. He's said the first two at least a time or two. At the end of the day he likely has to spin what the griz are doing as a positive, especially based on the results so far, otherwise he'd be hated in his hometown. He can't call them a paper tiger when there's no evidence of that yet. Plus it would be fun if a different style was able to supplant the established dynasty's format so it's an easy thing to highlight and root for.

I don't think it's Griz fan appeasement because most of the main guys at Skyline have said all season that they think the Cats are better.

I think he legitimately thinks there's something to the idea, so I wanted to offer some counter points.

[ilovethecats]

Ya I like how some over the hill are acting like our approach is ridiculous calling us poor mans NDSU. Like dominating the trenches isn't what every team at every level strives to do. By that token EVERY team is a poor mans NDSU.

[ECBobcat]

In what world does it make sense for a college football coach to rely on mediocre line play while hoping skill guys will carry the team? Again, there’s this idea that Hauck is a genius skirting norms—like he’s discovered a groundbreaking strategy of fielding mediocre lines and trying to kill opponents with skill players. It’s not either/or: you can have strong lines and strong skill positions, and any coach who “surrenders” the line of scrimmage is being negligent.

[TomCat88]

Disclaimer: I love the Nuanez brothers. They are awesome. Their coverage is fantastic. I am so grateful that UM and MSU have Skyline Sports. This thread is not trying to make any sort of criticism regarding bias or maroon colored glasses or anything like that.

But that said, in the spirit of discussion, I am going to take issue with one of Colter's major narratives this season.

He has been making the case that Montana's build (i.e. excellent at the skill positions, mediocre on the LOS) is the better approach to winning a National Championship because you just aren't ever going to beat NDSU at their own game.

This is an unsupportable thesis.

1) To say that MSU has tried to beat the Bison at their own game and failed is true, but misleading. MSU could have and should have won last season. They didn't lose in Frisco because they were overmatched in the trenches, they lost because they came out jittery and played like crap for a half.

2) SDSU and James Madison are the two teams who have disrupted NDSU's streak of championships and both of those teams were absolutely awesome in the trenches. Yes, they had great skill talent as well (no one, including NDSU, wins chippers apart from great skill talent), but they weren't built anything like Montana is this year. Their lines were sick.

3) He points to EW to support his point, but they only won the natty before the NDSU run started and could never do it again. The excuse is made that they lost to teams that they shouldn't have, but in reality, they lost to teams who were better in the trenches. Because quality on the LOS will tend to beat quality at the skill positions.

Until and unless rule changes completely neuter the game of football, it's still a game that is most heavily impacted by how teams play in the trenches and control the line of scrimmage.

I for one am so glad that UM and MSU have swapped places from where they used to be. MSU used to be the team with weak lines and lots fireworks at skill, while UM got all the foot MT players and built awesome OL's and DL's. No longer.

MSU could have and should have beat NDSU in 2023. MSU was jobbed in 2023 at SDSU. MSU beat SDSU in 2021 (SDSU beat NDSU that year). MSU was in good position to beat SDSU this year. That's four games that MSU easily could've won and one that they did win in a total of 7. The only losses that were convincing (38-10 vs NDSU in 2021 and 39-18 at SDSU in 2022).

I'd also throw the 2024 USD and 2021 at #1 SHSU game into the equation. They were equally as good as MSU, NDSU and SDSU. They beat NDSU and took SDSU to OT. Of those 9 games MSU has two convincing 31-17 wins, a big 42-20 win, four tossups (one a ripoff), and two big losses. If not jobbed in 2023, the Bobcats are 4-5 with three losses by three points or less.

2021 - 42-19 at SHSU, 31-17 SDSU, 10-38 NDSU (NC)
2022 - 18-39 at SDSU (eventual NC)
2023 - 16-20 at SDSU (eventual NC), 34-35 OT NDSU
2024 - 31-17 vs USD, 32-35 NDSU (NC)
2025 - 24-30 vs SDSU 2OT
Points for: 240, Points against: 250

[cat_stache_fever]

I assure you guys one thing: winning in the trenches will have ZERO impact on this game. What truly matters is how loud WGS is, how awesome their skill players are and what happened 10 years ago. Did you guys know that the gris' starting QB's dad is a gwis legend?! The Cats may have a great defensive line but the gris have won 73 games in this series. Also, did i mention how loud their stadium gets? Tony Romo said it was the loudest place he's played. Cat's Oline may be good but did you guys see how the mighty gris defense(and their fans) put Eastern Washington away a couple weeks back? Crowd noise and that overwhelming defense just got to those boys.

I wouldn't put too much importance on line play.

[Pecos24]

I assure you guys one thing: winning in the trenches will have ZERO impact on this game. What truly matters us how loud WGS is, how awesome their skill players are and what happened 10 years ago. Did you guys know that the gris' starting QB's dad is a gwis legend?! The Cats may have a great defensive line but the gris have won 73 games in this series. Also, did i mention how loud their stadium gets? Tony Romo said it was the loudest place he's played. Cat's Oline may be good but did you guys see how the mighty gris defense(and their fans) put Eastern Washington away a couple weeks back? Crowd noise and that overwhelming defense just got to those boys.

I wouldn't put too much importance on line play.

[GoldstoneCat]

I assure you guys one thing: winning in the trenches will have ZERO impact on this game. What truly matters us how loud WGS is, how awesome their skill players are and what happened 10 years ago. Did you guys know that the gris' starting QB's dad is a gwis legend?! The Cats may have a great defensive line but the gris have won 73 games in this series. Also, did i mention how loud their stadium gets? Tony Romo said it was the loudest place he's played. Cat's Oline may be good but did you guys see how the mighty gris defense(and their fans) put Eastern Washington away a couple weeks back? Crowd noise and that overwhelming defense just got to those boys.

I wouldn't put too much importance on line play.

No duh.

[onceacat]

The premise is absurd on its face. Are you telling me that Boooby wouldn't kill to put Wortham and Gillman behind MSUs O-Line?

To Colters point: If you have great skill players, you can always beat a superior team in a one off. But it's a high risk...not really that high reward strategy.

It really feels a lot like excusing or rationalizing mediocre line play.

[mule]

Tomorrow Cats will need to be able to run the ball consistently. It is paramount for us to win this game and control the clock. That O line will need to have a great day.

[nanacat]

I assure you guys one thing: winning in the trenches will have ZERO impact on this game. What truly matters is how loud WGS is, how awesome their skill players are and what happened 10 years ago. Did you guys know that the gris' starting QB's dad is a gwis legend?! The Cats may have a great defensive line but the gris have won 73 games in this series. Also, did i mention how loud their stadium gets? Tony Romo said it was the loudest place he's played. Cat's Oline may be good but did you guys see how the mighty gris defense(and their fans) put Eastern Washington away a couple weeks back? Crowd noise and that overwhelming defense just got to those boys.

I wouldn't put too much importance on line play.

[D-Wreck]

I assure you guys one thing: winning in the trenches will have ZERO impact on this game. What truly matters is how loud WGS is, how awesome their skill players are and what happened 10 years ago. Did you guys know that the gris' starting QB's dad is a gwis legend?! The Cats may have a great defensive line but the gris have won 73 games in this series. Also, did i mention how loud their stadium gets? Tony Romo said it was the loudest place he's played. Cat's Oline may be good but did you guys see how the mighty gris defense(and their fans) put Eastern Washington away a couple weeks back? Crowd noise and that overwhelming defense just got to those boys.

I wouldn't put too much importance on line play.

Not to mention our interior D line is toast. With rotating centers, we have no idea who to game plan for and they'll always be fresh. Might as well not even travel over.

[RockyBearCat]

I assure you guys one thing: winning in the trenches will have ZERO impact on this game. What truly matters is how loud WGS is, how awesome their skill players are and what happened 10 years ago. Did you guys know that the gris' starting QB's dad is a gwis legend?! The Cats may have a great defensive line but the gris have won 73 games in this series. Also, did i mention how loud their stadium gets? Tony Romo said it was the loudest place he's played. Cat's Oline may be good but did you guys see how the mighty gris defense(and their fans) put Eastern Washington away a couple weeks back? Crowd noise and that overwhelming defense just got to those boys.

I wouldn't put too much importance on line play.

Not to mention our interior D line is toast. With rotating centers, we have no idea who to game plan for and they'll always be fresh. Might as well not even travel over.

I heard from my cousin's neighbor that Bobby is sitting Wortham and Gillman. He recalls losing when Cats sat Troy Andersen. Sitting his 2 best HAS to be better.

[nanacat]

I assure you guys one thing: winning in the trenches will have ZERO impact on this game. What truly matters is how loud WGS is, how awesome their skill players are and what happened 10 years ago. Did you guys know that the gris' starting QB's dad is a gwis legend?! The Cats may have a great defensive line but the gris have won 73 games in this series. Also, did i mention how loud their stadium gets? Tony Romo said it was the loudest place he's played. Cat's Oline may be good but did you guys see how the mighty gris defense(and their fans) put Eastern Washington away a couple weeks back? Crowd noise and that overwhelming defense just got to those boys.

I wouldn't put too much importance on line play.

Not to mention our interior D line is toast. With rotating centers, we have no idea who to game plan for and they'll always be fresh. Might as well not even travel over.

I heard from my cousin's neighbor that Bobby is sitting Wortham and Gillman. He recalls losing when Cats sat Troy Andersen. Sitting his 2 best HAS to be better.

Yes!! Or, I mentioned in another thread, he won't start AhYat, but that other QB from UCLA, or wherever it was.

[BobcatBuiltTexan]

Tomorrow Cats will need to be able to run the ball consistently. It is paramount for us to win this game and control the clock. That O line will need to have a great day.

Totally disagree... that isn't our game this year. We need to be able to complete spot passing on their zone dawgs, identify where the pressure is coming from and audible to a safer play. We don't need to run consistently we need to run efficiently when we have to. That will come based off our pass game. Throwing the ball well is essential to us winning.

[ZebraCat]

Tomorrow Cats will need to be able to run the ball consistently. It is paramount for us to win this game and control the clock. That O line will need to have a great day.

Totally disagree... that isn't our game this year. We need to be able to complete spot passing on their zone dawgs, identify where the pressure is coming from and audible to a safer play. We don't need to run consistently we need to run efficiently when we have to. That will come based off our pass game. Throwing the ball well is essential to us winning.

You can disagree, but you have it backwards. We need to pass effectively snd efficiently to be able to run consistently. This offense isn't that much different than years past. Especially over the last two months.

[BelligerentBobcat]

Tomorrow Cats will need to be able to run the ball consistently. It is paramount for us to win this game and control the clock. That O line will need to have a great day.

Totally disagree... that isn't our game this year. We need to be able to complete spot passing on their zone dawgs, identify where the pressure is coming from and audible to a safer play. We don't need to run consistently we need to run efficiently when we have to. That will come based off our pass game. Throwing the ball well is essential to us winning.

You can disagree, but you have it backwards. We need to pass effectively snd efficiently to be able to run consistently. This offense isn't that much different than years past. Especially over the last two months.

Nah. BBT is correct. If we don’t throw the ball well, it’s not going to go well on offense.

[ZebraCat]

Tomorrow Cats will need to be able to run the ball consistently. It is paramount for us to win this game and control the clock. That O line will need to have a great day.

Totally disagree... that isn't our game this year. We need to be able to complete spot passing on their zone dawgs, identify where the pressure is coming from and audible to a safer play. We don't need to run consistently we need to run efficiently when we have to. That will come based off our pass game. Throwing the ball well is essential to us winning.

You can disagree, but you have it backwards. We need to pass effectively snd efficiently to be able to run consistently. This offense isn't that much different than years past. Especially over the last two months.

Nah. BBT is correct. If we don’t throw the ball well, it’s not going to go well on offense.

Do the words "effectively" and "efficiently" not mean well?

[catatac]

Tomorrow Cats will need to be able to run the ball consistently. It is paramount for us to win this game and control the clock. That O line will need to have a great day.

Totally disagree... that isn't our game this year. We need to be able to complete spot passing on their zone dawgs, identify where the pressure is coming from and audible to a safer play. We don't need to run consistently we need to run efficiently when we have to. That will come based off our pass game. Throwing the ball well is essential to us winning.

I love your points, but the flaw with that is it's damn near impossible to audible in that stadium when those mouth breathers are fired up. I know we have a non verbal communication plan, and I hope it's a solid plan. I've been down there many times and when it's a key play... I hate to give them credit but the noise is deafening.