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Re: New kickers

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:31 am
by catscat
I'm not here to disparage either kicker. I think that when Kautzman was tapped to replace Hall he was immediately under a microscope and subject to very high expectations. Overall I think he responded well to that and it's not why he's missed XPs.

If Saturday's miss had been Casey's first, we wouldn't be having this discussion, however, after he missed 2 in one game previously, it's not a new thing and he missed those for the same reason he missed Saturday. Seems only logical to me that someone - MSU coaching staff, Casey and his kicking coach, etc. - should have been trying to figure out the cause of the problem (if there was one with "mechanics") so it could be corrected.

I have no clue as to whether Hall or Kautzman have personal kicking coaches.

All of the positions and sports you mention pretty much have the common need for consistency and basic attributes that are required for success. I'm not a golfer, but but I'm guessing that if a golfer varies their stance from tee shot to tee shot they may get inconsistent results. As I said, I'm not a golfer, but even at my advanced age, I participate in a sport that requires consistency and adhering to the basics for success. It does not take a specialized coach to tell me that I have violated one of the basics or if I am inconsistent in how I do things. Other participants can see those things and have told me when I have changed what I am doing or violated one of the basics.

You seem to know a lot more about kicking and coaching kickers than I do so I will simply ask whether varying the length of a first step on XP attempts is something that can result in inconsistent results. And, does it take a specialized kicking coach to recognize that the length of the first step length varies. Further, if the length of the first step varies, will the plant foot be consistently in the right spot to get the ball up quick enough to clear the defensive line on an XP?

Re: New kickers

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 11:58 am
by msufaithful
So, at the beginning of the year my son mentioned that he believes the issue that Brendan and Casey were having was from inconsistent placement of the ball. And the reason was the ball was coming out low for both. Brendan also had an issue with missing to the right which means he is trying to overpower his kick. Last weekend during half time I really watch the Casey warm up. And when he kicks it without his holder it is very fluent ball comes out the way it should. When he kicks with the and holder that’s when he seems to miss and comes out low. That’s when I realized that my son my be right the holder is inconsistent placing the ball. I noticed when Casey would miss at half time the ball placement was anywhere from 6 inches forward from Casey maker. Kickers steps are automatic and when the ball is not where they marked it causes problems.
So, before we start blaming one piece of the machine, we need to really look at the entire machine.

Re: New kickers

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:01 pm
by Camo_Cat
We don't need new kickers. Brendan and Hall are both good, capable kickers. What we need is a dedicated special teams coach, especially one with experience in working directly with the kicker. I agree with @msufaithful that a lot of the misses are due to technique.

Re: New kickers

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:16 pm
by seacat85
They do have an alum that has a bit of experience kicking. I believe the first true kicker in the NFL Hall of Fame. I would hope maybe they could lean on him a little bit. Doesn't appear that he lives in the area (I thought he did) but sounds like he makes it up to Bozeman some.

Re: New kickers

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:31 pm
by 4thecats
catscat wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:31 am
I'm not here to disparage either kicker. I think that when Kautzman was tapped to replace Hall he was immediately under a microscope and subject to very high expectations. Overall I think he responded well to that and it's not why he's missed XPs.

If Saturday's miss had been Casey's first, we wouldn't be having this discussion, however, after he missed 2 in one game previously, it's not a new thing and he missed those for the same reason he missed Saturday. Seems only logical to me that someone - MSU coaching staff, Casey and his kicking coach, etc. - should have been trying to figure out the cause of the problem (if there was one with "mechanics") so it could be corrected.

I have no clue as to whether Hall or Kautzman have personal kicking coaches.

All of the positions and sports you mention pretty much have the common need for consistency and basic attributes that are required for success. I'm not a golfer, but but I'm guessing that if a golfer varies their stance from tee shot to tee shot they may get inconsistent results. As I said, I'm not a golfer, but even at my advanced age, I participate in a sport that requires consistency and adhering to the basics for success. It does not take a specialized coach to tell me that I have violated one of the basics or if I am inconsistent in how I do things. Other participants can see those things and have told me when I have changed what I am doing or violated one of the basics.

You seem to know a lot more about kicking and coaching kickers than I do so I will simply ask whether varying the length of a first step on XP attempts is something that can result in inconsistent results. And, does it take a specialized kicking coach to recognize that the length of the first step length varies. Further, if the length of the first step varies, will the plant foot be consistently in the right spot to get the ball up quick enough to clear the defensive line on an XP?
A short answer is yes.
Inconsistent motion will throw things off. I'm not sure if they have personal coaches either, but if they do I would have hoped for them to be in contact with them. If not, then that's on Casey and nobody else.
Unfortunately football coaches have a bad history of not knowing anything about kicking and in return, kickers don't listen to what coaches say because 99% of the time it's not right.
As another post mentioned. It could 100% be on the holder, but I have not spent time looking that close to the holds.

Re: New kickers

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:44 pm
by PapaG
If you’re going to spend $60,000 to hire a ST coach who only works with kickers, the level of coaching won’t be elite and hopefully he knows coverages and return blocking schemes.

May as well raise $25,000 in NIL to poach a proven kicker from a lesser program and hope that works. The entire special teams package was a positive outside of kicking so I don’t understand what hiring a full-time coach will produce in terms of wins.

Re: New kickers

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 9:03 pm
by kwcat
Was there a blocked xp in the superbowl?
Please discuss!😏

Re: New kickers

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 10:08 pm
by catscat
kwcat wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2024 9:03 pm
Was there a blocked xp in the superbowl?
Please discuss!😏
Hmmm. Maybe XPs are important?

Re: New kickers

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:37 pm
by tetoncat
kwcat wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2024 9:03 pm
Was there a blocked xp in the superbowl?
Please discuss!😏
Hmm, maybe pro xp are longer than college, and the guy also made 2 fg, one from 53. But go on with whatever point your trying to make.

Re: New kickers

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 5:41 am
by BLACKnBLUEnGOLD
BelligerentBobcat wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2023 3:17 pm
catscat wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2023 2:57 pm
A dedicated ST coach with experience coaching kickers (all phases) would be an excellent addition. The right coach could probably help Hall be even better, definitely help Casey, and probably help another FG/PAT kicker when we get one (which we probably should now).
I don’t think any team has a ST coach like that. That’s why all kickers go to kicking camps and specialists in the off-season. Same with QB’s. Even Bobby doesn’t mess with what the kickers do…I mean, they know the basics of course, but a ST coach isn’t completely redoing how somebody kicks. That isn’t their job.
It seems like no matter how many time this is explained, people just ignore it :roll:

Fortunately Tommy still has a year or you might have to add that snappers also have specialized snapping camps to teach technique

Re: New kickers

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 9:16 am
by mslacatfan
I’m really surprised they have not signed a transfer kicker yet…? Maybe they are just being picky and waiting for the right one.

Anyone have any insight?

Re: New kickers

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 9:41 am
by MSU01
mslacatfan wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2024 9:16 am
I’m really surprised they have not signed a transfer kicker yet…? Maybe they are just being picky and waiting for the right one.

Anyone have any insight?
Well, we know they've offered at least one high school kicker who as far as I'm aware is still uncommitted. As for bringing in a transfer, my guess is that the coaches have a lot more confidence than the fans do in Brendan Hall to improve his place kicking over the off-season to go along with his extremely strong performance on punts and kickoffs. Hall didn't miss a kick through the SDSU game last year and looked great, then developed some kind of mechanical flaw that caused him to miss every kick to the right until they finally had no choice but to bench him after the Idaho game. With Abshire leaving the program MSU will also have a new holder for next year, a position which is a much more important part of the success of a kicker than many realize. Definitely a lot of question marks heading into 2024 that won't be answered until a high-pressure game situation arises.

Re: New kickers

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:01 am
by nanacat
After watching the Super Bowl yesterday it renewed in my mind the crucial role a kicker plays. Can make or break a game. Obviously we've talked extensively about this so I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, just seeing that blocked PAT yesterday brought back those tough losses the Cats had due to bad kicks.

Re: New kickers

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:18 am
by PapaG
nanacat wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:01 am
After watching the Super Bowl yesterday it renewed in my mind the crucial role a kicker plays. Can make or break a game. Obviously we've talked extensively about this so I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, just seeing that blocked PAT yesterday brought back those tough losses the Cats had due to bad kicks.
That same kicker also made 53 and 55 yard FGs. Every kicker misses at times, doesn’t matter if they have 27 coaches, it first comes down to your talent performing consistently under pressure and that was the problem for MSU’s kickers last season. I don’t know how you fix that because you can’t replicate in-game atmosphere/pressure in any practice situation. Great kickers are able to either thrive off the pressure or block it out. That’s a psychological/physiological barrier to overcome, not technical, and many kickers who have made the choice to put themselves in these positions struggle with the mental aspect.

Re: New kickers

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:52 am
by Hawks86
Pretty easy fix. They need to tie their left cleat in a double knot.

Re: New kickers

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 12:33 pm
by mslacatfan
nanacat wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:01 am
After watching the Super Bowl yesterday it renewed in my mind the crucial role a kicker plays. Can make or break a game. Obviously we've talked extensively about this so I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, just seeing that blocked PAT yesterday brought back those tough losses the Cats had due to bad kicks.

Yes….. I think every Cat fan in Montana had a flashback and threw up in their mouth a little bit watching the 49ers blocked xp attempt yesterday…..

Re: New kickers

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 2:51 pm
by ND0479
Camo_Cat wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:01 pm
We don't need new kickers. Brendan and Hall are both good, capable kickers. What we need is a dedicated special teams coach, especially one with experience in working directly with the kicker. I agree with @msufaithful that a lot of the misses are due to technique.
This isn't a real post. It can't be.

Re: New kickers

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:05 pm
by AFCAT
ND0479 wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2024 2:51 pm
Camo_Cat wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:01 pm
We don't need new kickers. Brendan and Hall are both good, capable kickers. What we need is a dedicated special teams coach, especially one with experience in working directly with the kicker. I agree with @msufaithful that a lot of the misses are due to technique.
This isn't a real post. It can't be.
Brendan and Hall were a fantastic musical group in their day.

Re: New kickers

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 4:20 pm
by ND0479
AFCAT wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:05 pm
ND0479 wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2024 2:51 pm
Camo_Cat wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:01 pm
We don't need new kickers. Brendan and Hall are both good, capable kickers. What we need is a dedicated special teams coach, especially one with experience in working directly with the kicker. I agree with @msufaithful that a lot of the misses are due to technique.
This isn't a real post. It can't be.
Brendan and Hall were a fantastic musical group in their day.
Terrible kickers though!

Re: New kickers

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 4:24 pm
by kennethnoisewater
ND0479 wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2024 4:20 pm
AFCAT wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:05 pm
ND0479 wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2024 2:51 pm
Camo_Cat wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:01 pm
We don't need new kickers. Brendan and Hall are both good, capable kickers. What we need is a dedicated special teams coach, especially one with experience in working directly with the kicker. I agree with @msufaithful that a lot of the misses are due to technique.
This isn't a real post. It can't be.
Brendan and Hall were a fantastic musical group in their day.
Terrible kickers though!
But on the kick drum, Brendan was just a walking metronome. A real prodigy.