Moving up

[onceacat]

We can’t even win a National Championship at this level. Why would people want to watch us play for a the chance at a bowl game? This would be a huge mistake. The fan base would drop to below 10,000 fans per game. It would destroy our program. Just look at Idaho. There is a reason they came back to the Big Sky.

Totally disagree. Bobcat Stadium is packed on Saturdays because it's the place to be. It's a premier and one of a kind event that people don't want to miss. It's the same thing in Missoula. Like an old athletic director used to always say: "It's not about winning. It's about the hope of winning. If you win consistently for awhile, then people will have the hope of winning forever."

Montana State would have to be absolutely terrible for 10+ years in a row AND have a style that was unappealing to watch AND have a terrible coach for people to completely stop coming to games. And that wouldn't happen. If MSU was FBS, they could out-recruit at least half the league simply based on Bozeman being a way more desirable destination than Laramie or Reno or San Jose or wherever.

Hope of winning what? The Potato Bowl? Nope, as a lifelong Bobcat fan, I hope to win a National title and I don’t see that happening in the FBS. If Bozeman was such a desirable location for players, then the Cats would be destroying the Dakota schools every single year.

The Dakota schools are better in recruiting than Montana State because MSU practices at 6 a.m. in the freezing cold while the Jacks and the Bison practice inside. They also have far superior recruiting budgets and can offer full cost of attendance. Fargo metro is more than twice Bozeman metropolitan population. Both Brookings and Fargo are 3-3.5 hours from Minneapolis. Bozeman is not within six hours of any major city.

Its under 6 hours to SLC. But other than that, you are 100% correct. Also, by the time the DSU seniors get to their final year, they've played 16 games more than anyone else & had 24 extra weeks of practice. Hard to ever erase that deficit.

[onceacat]

For those saying people who don't want season tickets if we move up are fair weather fans, why? Even the most devoted fans get tired of mediocre or worse teams eventually.

As a fan I want a team that is playing for something every year. If we move up that won't be the case. Playing for a decent bowl game isn't playing for something. Even when the Cats were not good in the 90s there was always hope to start the year. 2000s, hope to start the year. There has been hope for 30 years and that fuels fandom. If MSU is an FBS team what hope is there for the end of the season? Unless you love a bowl game, there isn't any.

I'm the biggest hater on bowls you will find. I can say with full confidence I have never watched a bowl game played before New Years Day in my entire life. I used to refuse to talk about bowl season on the radio other than to just hate on it when I had a daily co-host. Now we don't talk about it at all.

But college football has been defined as a money-making machine. The only way to maintain a business is to add new revenue streams. There's only one way to do that: move up.

Let me ask you this: if the future in 15 years is Montana State still playing in the FCS and absolutely dominating the subdivision, going undefeated every single year, winning the Big Sky and making runs at national championships....and the competition is Utah Tech and Azusa Pacific and Western Illinois....and Eastern Washington and Portland State are playing D-II and every other reputable FCS program has moved on....is that better than moving up to the FBS and trying to win 10 games and go to the Holiday Bowl or whatever?

One thing Danny Sprinkle taught me during our four years working together: in the current state of affairs in Division I college sports, you can bitch and moan and complain and resist the trends and changes of the day. Or you can accept them, find your advantages and roll. You think Sprinkle wanted to be he most transfer-heavy program in the league? Nope, but they hung two banners. And he was such a figure head, players like RaeQuan Battle and Jubrile Belo quickly lost the fan perception as transfers and were thought of as simply Bobcats.

You move up to the Mountain West or have the ability to pay coaches more competitively, you don't lose Sprinkle.

The future in my opinion is that the Power 5 will break off completely and have a completely separate governing body. IF and when that happens in basketball, Division I sports will be at a crossroads. The NCAA DOES NOT run the College Football Playoff, therefore does not benefit financially from college football. If that same thing happened to men's Division I basketball, all NCAA Tournament revenue would cease.

Then what will happen to all the Title XI sports that exist to off-set football scholarships? No NCAA Tournament would basically mean the elimination or the complete reconfiguration of every non-revenue college sport in the country.

Once the entire thing fractures — and it's coming, make no mistake; UCLA, USC, Washington and Oregon will not be left out to dry to get the billions in TV money that's going to come the way of the SEC and the Big Ten. Then once they bounce from the Pac 12, what happens? Utah, Arizona, Arizona State and Colorado will find a way to align and get into the Big XII. Then what's next for Oregon State and Washington State? Everything will fracture, the Power 5 will realign into a Power 3 or a Power 4, each will get network TV deals and everyone else will be left to pick up the pieces and figure it all out.

So when that theoretical Power 4 exists and they stop playing FCS and Group of 5 teams for money games, how is that revenue replaced? Half the Big Sky couldn't have football if they didn't get their asses kicked twice a year by FBS schools.

The best case scenario once the fracture happens is that all the teams out West that don't get into the Network TV conglomeration team up with each other, get their own TV deal and form a new level of Division I football that maybe even includes a playoff.

I just don't see it going any other way. You have to evolve or die. That's just the way it is when you determine that the No. 1 determining factor in your capitalist society is the almighty dollar.

I know a lot of you think this is depressing. I'm totally with you. I have very little joy covering college sports anymore. It's a complete disaster to me. I only propose all these ideas and scenarios because the only way Montana State and Montana avoid falling further into irrelevancy is to get out of a two-bit league that legislates to the lowest common denominator.

You can hate that all you want. I don't like it. But it is the reality of the situation.

Good post.

[GoldstoneCat]

The funding just isn’t there for moving to FBS and we have assistant coaches now housing together. Where does the money come from when we’re already putting 19,000 in the seats on Saturdays.

Maybe if MSU could not have failing enrollment Little Bro in Missoula attached it might be a possibility but the MWC doesn’t need us both as members. We’re a state of just over a million people. I moved back from a metro area of 2.5 million last year and it just doesn’t equate.

It has been mentioned multiple times that revenue could be generated in other areas - not just sports. With the wider footprint and larger exposure, an increase of just 500 students would generate $7.5 million in tuition at $15,000 per student.

Where does that revenue come from if not state taxpayers. We’re a nothing state only known for rich Flathead and Big Sky people along with a fictional TV show who are from their own universities that they donate toward. It’s kind of unbelievable what Waded has been able to do building my alma mater to what it is today. Financially moving up doesn’t make sense because our donor base is low and non-alumni in Bozeman have other allegiances to their own schools and grad schools.

This is a fair point, but the athletic department is working hard to bring some of the wealthy transplants of bozeman/big sky/moonlight/yc on as donors, you know they are. Leon and waded are both phenomenal fundraisers, from what I've seen. People who move up a place want to be a part of the biggest things that are happening in that place, and it's the department's job to make sure the Bobcats are viewed that way. Not saying it's easy and your point about their own universities is a good one but there's money to be had. I'm 100% confident that the Montana schools are watching with keen interest and making plans in the event the MWC gets raided by the PAC, the power 4 break away, etc. It sucks, i like what we have going right now, but I'd rather be where we are than someone like NAU, Idaho, Weber etc who are big enough to want to go but have nowhere near the resources we do. Will be interesting to watch the next 5-10 years.

[tetoncat]

I've posted a lot of the data to this end, but I can try and sum it up here. I think MSU needs about $15 million more in revenue to be near the bottom of the MWC in revenue, the bare minimum. $40 million in revenue.

At least $5 million is pretty much already guaranteed due to TV contracts, bowl game payouts, march madness payouts. So the other $10 million needs to come from a combination of:

- institutional/state $ - Utah State gets $22m here for example, we get $10
- donor $ - we are at $5m, not sure what ceiling is here
- merchandising and sponsorship deals - we are extremely low here even by FCS/Big Sky standards, if the source I found is accurate
- competition guarantees - we get paid what roughly $500k-$700k for an FBS game (which we don't even do every year), that would turn into $1-$1.2 million for each OOC road game
- "other revenue"
The source has "other revenue" as - "Revenue from the following categories: Compensation and benefits provided by a third party; game program, novelty, parking and concession sales; sports camps and clinics; athletics restricted endowment and investments income; and, other operating revenue."

Don't get me wrong it's a big uphill battle and maybe the money just isn't there but when I dug into the numbers it isn't impossible. We'd be at $30 million in revenue just from added TV contracts and NCAA payouts. Utah State's revenue for example is $43 million.

And before anyone jumps at me for this, yes this goes without saying we need an invite into a MWC caliber conference, and no I don't want to go FBS just go to FBS, a big point of this is to be in a league with your peers, not some cobbled together FBS in name only conference like the WAC just tried to do (and failed).

Are those shares of revenue with same # of teams in conference. If our invite increases overall teams that could lower everyone's shares

[Cat Grad]

I'd venture a guess that we'll all know what's going to happen before Brookings receives our long line of RVs for the tailgating party in September. I haven't checked what the Twinkies or Rockies have going on that week but if nothing else, the Black Hills can be a lot of fun. I 'll probably pop over to Minnesota for some walleye and fall run browns out of the Great Lakes.

https://www.si.com/fannation/college/cf ... 2-interest

[Cataholic]

The funding just isn’t there for moving to FBS and we have assistant coaches now housing together. Where does the money come from when we’re already putting 19,000 in the seats on Saturdays.

Maybe if MSU could not have failing enrollment Little Bro in Missoula attached it might be a possibility but the MWC doesn’t need us both as members. We’re a state of just over a million people. I moved back from a metro area of 2.5 million last year and it just doesn’t equate.

It has been mentioned multiple times that revenue could be generated in other areas - not just sports. With the wider footprint and larger exposure, an increase of just 500 students would generate $7.5 million in tuition at $15,000 per student.

Where does that revenue come from if not state taxpayers. We’re a nothing state only known for rich Flathead and Big Sky people along with a fictional TV show who are from their own universities that they donate toward. It’s kind of unbelievable what Waded has been able to do building my alma mater to what it is today. Financially moving up doesn’t make sense because our donor base is low and non-alumni in Bozeman have other allegiances to their own schools and grad schools.

As Colter alluded to, other universities, including MWC schools, get a large amount of their financial support from the university itself. If we can generate this kind of growth in enrollment by moving up and gaining increased exposure in more populous areas like California, Nevada, Utah and Colorado, then maybe it is time that MSU also starts getting that kind of institutional support.

[onceacat]

The funding just isn’t there for moving to FBS and we have assistant coaches now housing together. Where does the money come from when we’re already putting 19,000 in the seats on Saturdays.

Maybe if MSU could not have failing enrollment Little Bro in Missoula attached it might be a possibility but the MWC doesn’t need us both as members. We’re a state of just over a million people. I moved back from a metro area of 2.5 million last year and it just doesn’t equate.

It has been mentioned multiple times that revenue could be generated in other areas - not just sports. With the wider footprint and larger exposure, an increase of just 500 students would generate $7.5 million in tuition at $15,000 per student.

Where does that revenue come from if not state taxpayers. We’re a nothing state only known for rich Flathead and Big Sky people along with a fictional TV show who are from their own universities that they donate toward. It’s kind of unbelievable what Waded has been able to do building my alma mater to what it is today. Financially moving up doesn’t make sense because our donor base is low and non-alumni in Bozeman have other allegiances to their own schools and grad schools.

As Colter alluded to, other universities, including MWC schools, get a large amount of their financial support from the university itself. If we can generate this kind of growth in enrollment by moving up and gaining increased exposure in more populous areas like California, Nevada, Utah and Colorado, then maybe it is time that MSU also starts getting that kind of institutional support.

I just dont see the reasoning as how Wyoming or Utah State or Nevada can do it...but MSU cant.

[Cataholic]

The funding just isn’t there for moving to FBS and we have assistant coaches now housing together. Where does the money come from when we’re already putting 19,000 in the seats on Saturdays.

Maybe if MSU could not have failing enrollment Little Bro in Missoula attached it might be a possibility but the MWC doesn’t need us both as members. We’re a state of just over a million people. I moved back from a metro area of 2.5 million last year and it just doesn’t equate.

It has been mentioned multiple times that revenue could be generated in other areas - not just sports. With the wider footprint and larger exposure, an increase of just 500 students would generate $7.5 million in tuition at $15,000 per student.

Where does that revenue come from if not state taxpayers. We’re a nothing state only known for rich Flathead and Big Sky people along with a fictional TV show who are from their own universities that they donate toward. It’s kind of unbelievable what Waded has been able to do building my alma mater to what it is today. Financially moving up doesn’t make sense because our donor base is low and non-alumni in Bozeman have other allegiances to their own schools and grad schools.

As Colter alluded to, other universities, including MWC schools, get a large amount of their financial support from the university itself. If we can generate this kind of growth in enrollment by moving up and gaining increased exposure in more populous areas like California, Nevada, Utah and Colorado, then maybe it is time that MSU also starts getting that kind of institutional support.

I just dont see the reasoning as how Wyoming or Utah State or Nevada can do it...but MSU cant.

Exactly what I am saying. I have never supported moving up until this year. Maybe it is the right time before we are left playing UNC and Portland State forever.

But maybe UM can’t make it right now. They have half the enrollment and not a promising trend. No way you could pull money from that institution right now to support athletics - even if their enrollment ticks up 500 students.

[Montanabob]

The funding just isn’t there for moving to FBS and we have assistant coaches now housing together. Where does the money come from when we’re already putting 19,000 in the seats on Saturdays.

Maybe if MSU could not have failing enrollment Little Bro in Missoula attached it might be a possibility but the MWC doesn’t need us both as members. We’re a state of just over a million people. I moved back from a metro area of 2.5 million last year and it just doesn’t equate.

It has been mentioned multiple times that revenue could be generated in other areas - not just sports. With the wider footprint and larger exposure, an increase of just 500 students would generate $7.5 million in tuition at $15,000 per student.

Where does that revenue come from if not state taxpayers. We’re a nothing state only known for rich Flathead and Big Sky people along with a fictional TV show who are from their own universities that they donate toward. It’s kind of unbelievable what Waded has been able to do building my alma mater to what it is today. Financially moving up doesn’t make sense because our donor base is low and non-alumni in Bozeman have other allegiances to their own schools and grad schools.

As Colter alluded to, other universities, including MWC schools, get a large amount of their financial support from the university itself. If we can generate this kind of growth in enrollment by moving up and gaining increased exposure in more populous areas like California, Nevada, Utah and Colorado, then maybe it is time that MSU also starts getting that kind of institutional support.

I just dont see the reasoning as how Wyoming or Utah State or Nevada can do it...but MSU cant.

Exactly what I am saying. I have never supported moving up until this year. Maybe it is the right time before we are left playing UNC and Portland State forever.

But maybe UM can’t make it right now. They have half the enrollment and not a promising trend. No way you could pull money from that institution right now to support athletics - even if their enrollment ticks up 500 students.

Wyoming is a slightly different situation. The only dog in the race. Either you went to UW or out of state. So they have the alumni on their side and only one team to cheer for. Except the other losing team the Dallas cowboys.

[Cat Grad]

The funding just isn’t there for moving to FBS and we have assistant coaches now housing together. Where does the money come from when we’re already putting 19,000 in the seats on Saturdays.

Maybe if MSU could not have failing enrollment Little Bro in Missoula attached it might be a possibility but the MWC doesn’t need us both as members. We’re a state of just over a million people. I moved back from a metro area of 2.5 million last year and it just doesn’t equate.

It has been mentioned multiple times that revenue could be generated in other areas - not just sports. With the wider footprint and larger exposure, an increase of just 500 students would generate $7.5 million in tuition at $15,000 per student.

Where does that revenue come from if not state taxpayers. We’re a nothing state only known for rich Flathead and Big Sky people along with a fictional TV show who are from their own universities that they donate toward. It’s kind of unbelievable what Waded has been able to do building my alma mater to what it is today. Financially moving up doesn’t make sense because our donor base is low and non-alumni in Bozeman have other allegiances to their own schools and grad schools.

As Colter alluded to, other universities, including MWC schools, get a large amount of their financial support from the university itself. If we can generate this kind of growth in enrollment by moving up and gaining increased exposure in more populous areas like California, Nevada, Utah and Colorado, then maybe it is time that MSU also starts getting that kind of institutional support.

I just dont see the reasoning as how Wyoming or Utah State or Nevada can do it...but MSU cant.

Exactly what I am saying. I have never supported moving up until this year. Maybe it is the right time before we are left playing UNC and Portland State forever.

But maybe UM can’t make it right now. They have half the enrollment and not a promising trend. No way you could pull money from that institution right now to support athletics - even if their enrollment ticks up 500 students.

Wyoming is a slightly different situation. The only dog in the race. Either you went to UW or out of state. So they have the alumni on their side and only one team to cheer for. Except the other losing team the Dallas cowboys.

Laramie to Fort Collins--65 miles. They can recruit the area around Coors Field and where the jack asses play. Lots of Cowboy fans in Hayter's whenever the Cats are playing (bothers me a bit that Mike shows the Griz games now but that's his business). Many MSU plates and decals in Wyoming.

[CodyCat]

I think combining losing seasons and games at 830 at night, attendance would take a huge nose dive.

[RockyBearCat]

Regarding "new" Montanans donating. The $101 Million donated to the nursing school from Mark and Robyn Jones.

"ALTHOUGH WE don't live in Montana full time, it was very much a part of our backstory. Growing up, we spent a lot of time here as kids," he said during Monday's news conference.

"We became convinced that our investment in expanding the capacity and capabilities of MSU's nursing school could have a real impact on the people that live in the state that we consider home, and we feel privileged to be able to make this investment," she said. "We are very passionate about education — it changed our lives. We are very passionate about investing our dollars where they can have the biggest impact on improving the quality of life for our neighbors, and we are honored to do so."

Asked why they didn't donate to their own alma maters, Mark Jones responded half-jokingly: "I get hit up by Harvard all the time. Believe me, they don't need the money."

[Bobcat4Ever]

Wyoming, Nevada, Utah State. Wyoming is a body of one and they have a lot of oil and gas money. Utah and Nevada both have more than triple the population of Montana. Higher paying jobs and better tax structures. Utah really supports education, and the Montana Legislature would rather not be bothered by it.

[Cat Grad]

44 percent of the student body at MSU are Montana residents. Out of state non-residents don't contribute to MSU????

[coloradocat]

Regarding "new" Montanans donating. The $101 Million donated to the nursing school from Mark and Robyn Jones.

"ALTHOUGH WE don't live in Montana full time, it was very much a part of our backstory. Growing up, we spent a lot of time here as kids," he said during Monday's news conference.

"We became convinced that our investment in expanding the capacity and capabilities of MSU's nursing school could have a real impact on the people that live in the state that we consider home, and we feel privileged to be able to make this investment," she said. "We are very passionate about education — it changed our lives. We are very passionate about investing our dollars where they can have the biggest impact on improving the quality of life for our neighbors, and we are honored to do so."

Asked why they didn't donate to their own alma maters, Mark Jones responded half-jokingly: "I get hit up by Harvard all the time. Believe me, they don't need the money."

I would guess donating to the academic side is a much easier sell than the athletics side. That's true for alums as well as transplants. Even Gianforte keeps giving a ton of money to Engineering but I've never heard of him or Daines contribute to athletics.

[allcat]

Regarding "new" Montanans donating. The $101 Million donated to the nursing school from Mark and Robyn Jones.

"ALTHOUGH WE don't live in Montana full time, it was very much a part of our backstory. Growing up, we spent a lot of time here as kids," he said during Monday's news conference.

"We became convinced that our investment in expanding the capacity and capabilities of MSU's nursing school could have a real impact on the people that live in the state that we consider home, and we feel privileged to be able to make this investment," she said. "We are very passionate about education — it changed our lives. We are very passionate about investing our dollars where they can have the biggest impact on improving the quality of life for our neighbors, and we are honored to do so."

Asked why they didn't donate to their own alma maters, Mark Jones responded half-jokingly: "I get hit up by Harvard all the time. Believe me, they don't need the money."

I would guess donating to the academic side is a much easier sell than the athletics side. That's true for alums as well as transplants. Even Gianforte keeps giving a ton of money to Engineering but I've never heard of him or Daines contribute to athletics.

If I had money, I would prioritize it to the academic side first. Fortunately being a peasant, I don't have to worry about it.

[The Butcher]

Wyoming, Nevada, Utah State. Wyoming is a body of one and they have a lot of oil and gas money. Utah and Nevada both have more than triple the population of Montana. Higher paying jobs and better tax structures. Utah really supports education, and the Montana Legislature would rather not be bothered by it.

Wyoming actually has education outlined in their State Constitution (I was told they are the only state that has that in their constitution, but that could be wrong). That is why their teachers are among the highest paid (10th) and have one of lowest college tuition for a state university (2nd at $6,440 a year ). So yes, natural resources are a large factor, but it actually is based on the constitutional right to education for Wyomingites.

[Bobcat4Ever]

Wyoming, Nevada, Utah State. Wyoming is a body of one and they have a lot of oil and gas money. Utah and Nevada both have more than triple the population of Montana. Higher paying jobs and better tax structures. Utah really supports education, and the Montana Legislature would rather not be bothered by it.

Wyoming actually has education outlined in their State Constitution (I was told they are the only state that has that in their constitution, but that could be wrong). That is why their teachers are among the highest paid (10th) and have one of lowest college tuition for a state university (2nd at $6,440 a year ). So yes, natural resources are a large factor, but it actually is based on the constitutional right to education for Wyomingites.

That’s really interesting. I can’t think of anything with a higher ROI that should be in the base budget. If you start funding something and keep up, it’s a lot easier/cheaper than playing Montana catch-up. Good on Wyoming.

[kennethnoisewater]

Wyoming, Nevada, Utah State. Wyoming is a body of one and they have a lot of oil and gas money. Utah and Nevada both have more than triple the population of Montana. Higher paying jobs and better tax structures. Utah really supports education, and the Montana Legislature would rather not be bothered by it.

Wyoming actually has education outlined in their State Constitution (I was told they are the only state that has that in their constitution, but that could be wrong). That is why their teachers are among the highest paid (10th) and have one of lowest college tuition for a state university (2nd at $6,440 a year ). So yes, natural resources are a large factor, but it actually is based on the constitutional right to education for Wyomingites.

That’s really interesting. I can’t think of anything with a higher ROI that should be in the base budget. If you start funding something and keep up, it’s a lot easier/cheaper than playing Montana catch-up. Good on Wyoming.

I like it too. I wonder if this is made easier by having only one four-year university in the state. I don't know if this is true or not, but it seems to me Montana could be spending a ton of money subsidizing (even at a low level) so many more four-year institutions in a state of a relatively similar population.

[Bobcat4Ever]

Wyoming, Nevada, Utah State. Wyoming is a body of one and they have a lot of oil and gas money. Utah and Nevada both have more than triple the population of Montana. Higher paying jobs and better tax structures. Utah really supports education, and the Montana Legislature would rather not be bothered by it.

Wyoming actually has education outlined in their State Constitution (I was told they are the only state that has that in their constitution, but that could be wrong). That is why their teachers are among the highest paid (10th) and have one of lowest college tuition for a state university (2nd at $6,440 a year ). So yes, natural resources are a large factor, but it actually is based on the constitutional right to education for Wyomingites.

That’s really interesting. I can’t think of anything with a higher ROI that should be in the base budget. If you start funding something and keep up, it’s a lot easier/cheaper than playing Montana catch-up. Good on Wyoming.

I like it too. I wonder if this is made easier by having only one four-year university in the state. I don't know if this is true or not, but it seems to me Montana could be spending a ton of money subsidizing (even at a low level) so many more four-year institutions in a state of a relatively similar population.

I didn’t look but Wyoming’s population used to be about one-third of Montana’s. I’m sure it’s grown, but maybe still only half as big? Getting hungry.

UPDATE: 580,000 Wyoming current population. In 1960 Wyoming had 330,000 people.