Paying athletes....

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bobcat99
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Re: Paying athletes....

Post by bobcat99 » Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:11 am

Montanabob wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:59 am
So one athlete just got $2 million for NIL. Explain to me how it's not pay to play
A little context is needed here.

Hercy Miller got a $2 million deal over 4 years. Who is Hercy Miller? He’s the son of Master P. To some of you, that means nothing. But he’s a pretty famous rapper and producer, worth a few hundred mil. That is why Hercy is getting the deal, which isn’t from the school. It’s from a company that as far as I know, has no connection to the school.

So you tell me, how is this pay for play? Bc the deal is mainly bc of who the kids dad is.



BobcatDel
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Re: Paying athletes....

Post by BobcatDel » Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:16 pm

AFCAT wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:18 pm
BobcatDel wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:47 pm
AFCAT wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:05 pm
I think the Washington Corp is more interested in slapping their name on stuff not marketing someone else's name. Heck, um still owes millions in loans on their football facility. The Washington Corp could pay that off that um debt with with change from their couch cushions but chooses not to.

I don't think you are going to see any true million dollar endorsement contracts in FCS and probably not in FBS either.
Here is the link to the LSU gymnast lady, Dunne, who people are speculating could make a $million.

https://www.newsweek.com/lsu-gymnast-ol ... il-1606213
I was thinking more along the lines of product endorsements, like a wireless network, car dealer, etc.
Gotcha..understood. But can’t you see a kid who has had a great game coming to meet the press for an interview after the game…throwing her or his warm up/sweatshirt or jacket on looking like a NASCAR driver with emblems all over it. Or wearing a head band and wrist ban with some logo on it…. :D just kidding.



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AFCAT
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Re: Paying athletes....

Post by AFCAT » Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:40 pm

BobcatDel wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:16 pm
AFCAT wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:18 pm
BobcatDel wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:47 pm
AFCAT wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:05 pm
I think the Washington Corp is more interested in slapping their name on stuff not marketing someone else's name. Heck, um still owes millions in loans on their football facility. The Washington Corp could pay that off that um debt with with change from their couch cushions but chooses not to.

I don't think you are going to see any true million dollar endorsement contracts in FCS and probably not in FBS either.
Here is the link to the LSU gymnast lady, Dunne, who people are speculating could make a $million.

https://www.newsweek.com/lsu-gymnast-ol ... il-1606213
I was thinking more along the lines of product endorsements, like a wireless network, car dealer, etc.
Gotcha..understood. But can’t you see a kid who has had a great game coming to meet the press for an interview after the game…throwing her or his warm up/sweatshirt or jacket on looking like a NASCAR driver with emblems all over it. Or wearing a head band and wrist ban with some logo on it…. :D just kidding.
Heck, if the athletes are allowed to do that, then more power to them. I kind of like seeing the little guy making some cash and not just the American oligarchs. I’ll purchase 1000 shares of ‘Troy Andersen’ when the IPO comes out. :D


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BobcatDel
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Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:54 pm

Re: Paying athletes....

Post by BobcatDel » Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:40 pm

bobcat99 wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:11 am
Montanabob wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:59 am
So one athlete just got $2 million for NIL. Explain to me how it's not pay to play
A little context is needed here.

Hercy Miller got a $2 million deal over 4 years. Who is Hercy Miller? He’s the son of Master P. To some of you, that means nothing. But he’s a pretty famous rapper and producer, worth a few hundred mil. That is why Hercy is getting the deal, which isn’t from the school. It’s from a company that as far as I know, has no connection to the school.

So you tell me, how is this pay for play? Bc the deal is mainly bc of who the kids dad is.
In the Miller case perhaps it is or perhaps it is not. I don’t know. But several of the other examples popping up and earnings approaching $million being quoted border on pay for play. Kids have developed name recognition starting with their college athletics through a university and have built “followings” from that exposure. Schools can and some “will” promise or develop pipelines to draw kids promising they will enhance their images and value. Whether you call that pay for play or not, they will use the promise of financial incentives or potential earnings to lure kids.

It is just too early in the game for me to predict all the scenarios that may happen…..but when you start talking money at these levels some strange things happen…unforeseen schemes. Creative minds will garner ideas and implement plans to make money we probably don’t foresee today and lure kids to your university.

Some of the numbers being quoted in Newsweek were interesting…. Describing what followers on different social media platforms were worth. All kinds of scenarios can be thought of. A negative example….. Can some of the focus on promoting themselves or maintaining a social media image take away from a college athletes training time, alter on-the-court behavior or appearance, or lower meeting educational expectations. If it does in a negative way and a kid gets benched, is the coach liable for reducing his/her playing time thus impacting social media value and can the athlete….she/he sue the school for value impact?

I know Congress said they would work with the NCAA to draft a set of workable rules to guide programs….but from everything I am seeing the train is well down the tracks and moving quickly in a lot of areas.



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Common Cat
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Re: Paying athletes....

Post by Common Cat » Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:32 pm

Maybe the R&R will sponsor a MSU athlete!


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grizzh8r
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Re: Paying athletes....

Post by grizzh8r » Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:47 pm

BobcatDel wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:16 pm
AFCAT wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:18 pm
BobcatDel wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:47 pm
AFCAT wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:05 pm
I think the Washington Corp is more interested in slapping their name on stuff not marketing someone else's name. Heck, um still owes millions in loans on their football facility. The Washington Corp could pay that off that um debt with with change from their couch cushions but chooses not to.

I don't think you are going to see any true million dollar endorsement contracts in FCS and probably not in FBS either.
Here is the link to the LSU gymnast lady, Dunne, who people are speculating could make a $million.

https://www.newsweek.com/lsu-gymnast-ol ... il-1606213
I was thinking more along the lines of product endorsements, like a wireless network, car dealer, etc.
Gotcha..understood. But can’t you see a kid who has had a great game coming to meet the press for an interview after the game…throwing her or his warm up/sweatshirt or jacket on looking like a NASCAR driver with emblems all over it. Or wearing a head band and wrist ban with some logo on it…. :D just kidding.
You mean like Nick Saban and his coca cola bottle?


Eric Curry STILL makes me sad.
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:rofl:

bobcat99
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Posts: 4415
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Re: Paying athletes....

Post by bobcat99 » Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:00 am

BobcatDel wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:40 pm
bobcat99 wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:11 am
Montanabob wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:59 am
So one athlete just got $2 million for NIL. Explain to me how it's not pay to play
A little context is needed here.

Hercy Miller got a $2 million deal over 4 years. Who is Hercy Miller? He’s the son of Master P. To some of you, that means nothing. But he’s a pretty famous rapper and producer, worth a few hundred mil. That is why Hercy is getting the deal, which isn’t from the school. It’s from a company that as far as I know, has no connection to the school.

So you tell me, how is this pay for play? Bc the deal is mainly bc of who the kids dad is.
In the Miller case perhaps it is or perhaps it is not. I don’t know. But several of the other examples popping up and earnings approaching $million being quoted border on pay for play. Kids have developed name recognition starting with their college athletics through a university and have built “followings” from that exposure. Schools can and some “will” promise or develop pipelines to draw kids promising they will enhance their images and value. Whether you call that pay for play or not, they will use the promise of financial incentives or potential earnings to lure kids.

It is just too early in the game for me to predict all the scenarios that may happen…..but when you start talking money at these levels some strange things happen…unforeseen schemes. Creative minds will garner ideas and implement plans to make money we probably don’t foresee today and lure kids to your university.

Some of the numbers being quoted in Newsweek were interesting…. Describing what followers on different social media platforms were worth. All kinds of scenarios can be thought of. A negative example….. Can some of the focus on promoting themselves or maintaining a social media image take away from a college athletes training time, alter on-the-court behavior or appearance, or lower meeting educational expectations. If it does in a negative way and a kid gets benched, is the coach liable for reducing his/her playing time thus impacting social media value and can the athlete….she/he sue the school for value impact?

I know Congress said they would work with the NCAA to draft a set of workable rules to guide programs….but from everything I am seeing the train is well down the tracks and moving quickly in a lot of areas.
Schools have promised athletes good jobs because of the connections at the school. So now they’ll promote possible NIL contracts bc of connections and that’s pay for play? That logic doesn’t hold up to me.

You’re also way off base on thinking the colleges make them popular, and make them known. They help in that regard, but a lot of these athletes are well known commodities before college. Take that gymnast from LSU, she doesn’t have a million followers because she goes to LSU, she has those followers for a few other reasons, all having to do with herself. Why shouldn’t she be allowed to profit off of that, if she wants to?

At the end of the day, universities have made big business out of college football. Coaching staffs cost tens of millions a year. Hundreds of millions in facilities. BILLIONS in revenue. And we don’t think the main people involved should be able to make money? What a crock of ****** that is. People here are quick to spout “jimmies and joes, not X’s and O’s“, but apparently that doesn’t count when it comes to profiting, right?



bobcat99
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Posts: 4415
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:11 am

Re: Paying athletes....

Post by bobcat99 » Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:03 am

BobcatDel wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:16 pm
AFCAT wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:18 pm
BobcatDel wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:47 pm
AFCAT wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:05 pm
I think the Washington Corp is more interested in slapping their name on stuff not marketing someone else's name. Heck, um still owes millions in loans on their football facility. The Washington Corp could pay that off that um debt with with change from their couch cushions but chooses not to.

I don't think you are going to see any true million dollar endorsement contracts in FCS and probably not in FBS either.
Here is the link to the LSU gymnast lady, Dunne, who people are speculating could make a $million.

https://www.newsweek.com/lsu-gymnast-ol ... il-1606213
I was thinking more along the lines of product endorsements, like a wireless network, car dealer, etc.
Gotcha..understood. But can’t you see a kid who has had a great game coming to meet the press for an interview after the game…throwing her or his warm up/sweatshirt or jacket on looking like a NASCAR driver with emblems all over it. Or wearing a head band and wrist ban with some logo on it…. :D just kidding.
I don’t see the problem with it, to be honest.

If a company wanted me to wear clothes and pay me to do it, I wouldn’t even care what they look like. I’m sure all of us in Montana know some ranchers, they’re walking advertisements. Never met a rancher who will turn down a hat. Okay for them, but not student athletes, right?



BobcatDel
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Posts: 1383
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:54 pm

Re: Paying athletes....

Post by BobcatDel » Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:16 am

bobcat99 wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:00 am
BobcatDel wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:40 pm
bobcat99 wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:11 am
Montanabob wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:59 am
So one athlete just got $2 million for NIL. Explain to me how it's not pay to play
A little context is needed here.

Hercy Miller got a $2 million deal over 4 years. Who is Hercy Miller? He’s the son of Master P. To some of you, that means nothing. But he’s a pretty famous rapper and producer, worth a few hundred mil. That is why Hercy is getting the deal, which isn’t from the school. It’s from a company that as far as I know, has no connection to the school.

So you tell me, how is this pay for play? Bc the deal is mainly bc of who the kids dad is.
In the Miller case perhaps it is or perhaps it is not. I don’t know. But several of the other examples popping up and earnings approaching $million being quoted border on pay for play. Kids have developed name recognition starting with their college athletics through a university and have built “followings” from that exposure. Schools can and some “will” promise or develop pipelines to draw kids promising they will enhance their images and value. Whether you call that pay for play or not, they will use the promise of financial incentives or potential earnings to lure kids.

It is just too early in the game for me to predict all the scenarios that may happen…..but when you start talking money at these levels some strange things happen…unforeseen schemes. Creative minds will garner ideas and implement plans to make money we probably don’t foresee today and lure kids to your university.

Some of the numbers being quoted in Newsweek were interesting…. Describing what followers on different social media platforms were worth. All kinds of scenarios can be thought of. A negative example….. Can some of the focus on promoting themselves or maintaining a social media image take away from a college athletes training time, alter on-the-court behavior or appearance, or lower meeting educational expectations. If it does in a negative way and a kid gets benched, is the coach liable for reducing his/her playing time thus impacting social media value and can the athlete….she/he sue the school for value impact?

I know Congress said they would work with the NCAA to draft a set of workable rules to guide programs….but from everything I am seeing the train is well down the tracks and moving quickly in a lot of areas.
Schools have promised athletes good jobs because of the connections at the school. So now they’ll promote possible NIL contracts bc of connections and that’s pay for play? That logic doesn’t hold up to me.

You’re also way off base on thinking the colleges make them popular, and make them known. They help in that regard, but a lot of these athletes are well known commodities before college. Take that gymnast from LSU, she doesn’t have a million followers because she goes to LSU, she has those followers for a few other reasons, all having to do with herself. Why shouldn’t she be allowed to profit off of that, if she wants to?

At the end of the day, universities have made big business out of college football. Coaching staffs cost tens of millions a year. Hundreds of millions in facilities. BILLIONS in revenue. And we don’t think the main people involved should be able to make money? What a crock of ****** that is. People here are quick to spout “jimmies and joes, not X’s and O’s“, but apparently that doesn’t count when it comes to profiting, right?
For us ignorant types…what do you mean “jimmies and Joe’s”?

So you think “most” of the universities in the NCAA make “billions” in revenue? Interesting perspective. Most of the programs I know, at least at our level, make barely enough to fund the athletic departments to keep the rest of the kids on the court in uniforms. Look at all the schools, even some Power 5 conferences, dropping other sports programs during this Covid crisis…that tells you revenues are not large enough across the spectrum to pay to continue participation. Lot of those new buildings I am familiar with come on the backs of private wealthy donors or local special taxation benefits and not university athletic revenues…..of course success on the court or field tends to open up the pocket books.

So you think Dunne would be popular as she is without a platform like LSU? Another interesting perspective. She is undoubtedly a great athlete on her own. Guess she could have participated in some exclusive gymnastic club and skipped college and tried to build her popularity that way. She could have had a marketing campaign to convince everyone she was good, really really good even though she may not have had the same level of competition to compete against to showcase her skills. She could have sought out private sponsors while at the private club until she reached a level to make the Olympic trials without competing against NCAA talent. But yeah guess this dumb old country kid thinks LSU kinda helps her showcase her skill set against the top competition in the country on national TV at times and does help her build her popularity even more. Oh well..just ignorant I guess.

There certainly are schools in the upper echelon that are very wealthy as you note and they will certainly have a new way in to recruiting kids. Take the University of Texas. I don’t know of any other school that has their own TV Network….maybe they are out there. But what an advantage to tell a kid in any sport…golf, tennis, volleyball, dumpster diving…etc. that you are guaranteed National and regional TV exposure to help you with branding and selling your image. You don’t think that is bordering on “pay to play”?

Yep. Paying kids $30 to 80,000 scholarships (at least within scholarship limits) has always been done and is certainly more than I was paid to go to school. And yes schools have helped kids get summer jobs to help during summer months. Those all had to go through a rigorous review to meet NCAA protocol…they do here in Bozeman anyway. And yes boosters have been able to help with summer school fees and costs for many years again all applied to educational needs. And yes FCOA is something that should be pursued to help athletes. And certainly some level of compensation may be worthy for kids. But how much is that….is it a few thousand, is it millions, is in tens of millions, is it “the skies the limit”? Will college sports become like semi-pro, minor league or farm teams? Why have any scholarship limits now? What is the definition of amateur sports in the new world? Can a team that doesn’t foster business opportunities in NIL even compete in the new world and can colleges create new methods to harness marketing their kids and conversely get a piece of the action to help fund athletics too (kinda like sports agents to the pros)? What is the liability for ruining reputation and damage to NIL?

I am not saying I am against this change…..I am saying that we are entering a new era in college athletics and for the size of some of the dollars being discussed it will create scenarios we don’t envision now. You may be perfectly happy with it…great



bobcat99
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Posts: 4415
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:11 am

Re: Paying athletes....

Post by bobcat99 » Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:31 am

BobcatDel wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:16 am
bobcat99 wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:00 am
BobcatDel wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:40 pm
bobcat99 wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:11 am
Montanabob wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:59 am
So one athlete just got $2 million for NIL. Explain to me how it's not pay to play
A little context is needed here.

Hercy Miller got a $2 million deal over 4 years. Who is Hercy Miller? He’s the son of Master P. To some of you, that means nothing. But he’s a pretty famous rapper and producer, worth a few hundred mil. That is why Hercy is getting the deal, which isn’t from the school. It’s from a company that as far as I know, has no connection to the school.

So you tell me, how is this pay for play? Bc the deal is mainly bc of who the kids dad is.
In the Miller case perhaps it is or perhaps it is not. I don’t know. But several of the other examples popping up and earnings approaching $million being quoted border on pay for play. Kids have developed name recognition starting with their college athletics through a university and have built “followings” from that exposure. Schools can and some “will” promise or develop pipelines to draw kids promising they will enhance their images and value. Whether you call that pay for play or not, they will use the promise of financial incentives or potential earnings to lure kids.

It is just too early in the game for me to predict all the scenarios that may happen…..but when you start talking money at these levels some strange things happen…unforeseen schemes. Creative minds will garner ideas and implement plans to make money we probably don’t foresee today and lure kids to your university.

Some of the numbers being quoted in Newsweek were interesting…. Describing what followers on different social media platforms were worth. All kinds of scenarios can be thought of. A negative example….. Can some of the focus on promoting themselves or maintaining a social media image take away from a college athletes training time, alter on-the-court behavior or appearance, or lower meeting educational expectations. If it does in a negative way and a kid gets benched, is the coach liable for reducing his/her playing time thus impacting social media value and can the athlete….she/he sue the school for value impact?

I know Congress said they would work with the NCAA to draft a set of workable rules to guide programs….but from everything I am seeing the train is well down the tracks and moving quickly in a lot of areas.
Schools have promised athletes good jobs because of the connections at the school. So now they’ll promote possible NIL contracts bc of connections and that’s pay for play? That logic doesn’t hold up to me.

You’re also way off base on thinking the colleges make them popular, and make them known. They help in that regard, but a lot of these athletes are well known commodities before college. Take that gymnast from LSU, she doesn’t have a million followers because she goes to LSU, she has those followers for a few other reasons, all having to do with herself. Why shouldn’t she be allowed to profit off of that, if she wants to?

At the end of the day, universities have made big business out of college football. Coaching staffs cost tens of millions a year. Hundreds of millions in facilities. BILLIONS in revenue. And we don’t think the main people involved should be able to make money? What a crock of ****** that is. People here are quick to spout “jimmies and joes, not X’s and O’s“, but apparently that doesn’t count when it comes to profiting, right?
For us ignorant types…what do you mean “jimmies and Joe’s”?

So you think “most” of the universities in the NCAA make “billions” in revenue? Interesting perspective. Most of the programs I know, at least at our level, make barely enough to fund the athletic departments to keep the rest of the kids on the court in uniforms. Look at all the schools, even some Power 5 conferences, dropping other sports programs during this Covid crisis…that tells you revenues are not large enough across the spectrum to pay to continue participation. Lot of those new buildings I am familiar with come on the backs of private wealthy donors or local special taxation benefits and not university athletic revenues…..of course success on the court or field tends to open up the pocket books.

So you think Dunne would be popular as she is without a platform like LSU? Another interesting perspective. She is undoubtedly a great athlete on her own. Guess she could have participated in some exclusive gymnastic club and skipped college and tried to build her popularity that way. She could have had a marketing campaign to convince everyone she was good, really really good even though she may not have had the same level of competition to compete against to showcase her skills. She could have sought out private sponsors while at the private club until she reached a level to make the Olympic trials without competing against NCAA talent. But yeah guess this dumb old country kid thinks LSU kinda helps her showcase her skill set against the top competition in the country on national TV at times and does help her build her popularity even more. Oh well..just ignorant I guess.

There certainly are schools in the upper echelon that are very wealthy as you note and they will certainly have a new way in to recruiting kids. Take the University of Texas. I don’t know of any other school that has their own TV Network….maybe they are out there. But what an advantage to tell a kid in any sport…golf, tennis, volleyball, dumpster diving…etc. that you are guaranteed National and regional TV exposure to help you with branding and selling your image. You don’t think that is bordering on “pay to play”?

Yep. Paying kids $30 to 80,000 scholarships (at least within scholarship limits) has always been done and is certainly more than I was paid to go to school. And yes schools have helped kids get summer jobs to help during summer months. Those all had to go through a rigorous review to meet NCAA protocol…they do here in Bozeman anyway. And yes boosters have been able to help with summer school fees and costs for many years again all applied to educational needs. And yes FCOA is something that should be pursued to help athletes. And certainly some level of compensation may be worthy for kids. But how much is that….is it a few thousand, is it millions, is in tens of millions, is it “the skies the limit”? Will college sports become like semi-pro, minor league or farm teams? Why have any scholarship limits now? What is the definition of amateur sports in the new world? Can a team that doesn’t foster business opportunities in NIL even compete in the new world and can colleges create new methods to harness marketing their kids and conversely get a piece of the action to help fund athletics too (kinda like sports agents to the pros)? What is the liability for ruining reputation and damage to NIL?

I am not saying I am against this change…..I am saying that we are entering a new era in college athletics and for the size of some of the dollars being discussed it will create scenarios we don’t envision now. You may be perfectly happy with it…great
Jimmies and Joe’s are the players. The idea behind what I quoted is that having good players is more important than scheme, and it’s correct.

Billions in revenue is in regard to the whole of college football.

Dunne is probably a good gymnast. But with all due respect to her and LSU, that ain’t the only reason she’s very popular. She’s helping LSU as much or more in terms of attention than they are helping her.

I think Justice Kavanaugh framed it perfectly regarding the NCAA and paying student athletes.

“Nowhere else in America can businesses get away with agreeing not to pay their workers a fair market rate on the theory that their product is defined by not paying their workers a fair market rate," Kavanaugh wrote. "And under ordinary principles of antitrust law, it is not evident why college sports should be any different.

"The NCAA is not above the law."

Btw, what’s the problem with pay for play? I get paid for the work I do. I’m assuming you do too. Thinking that sports in modern day college, especially for the major men’s sports, is anything but work, is naive. Players can hardly have summer jobs (if you miss the “voluntary” workouts, all of a sudden you’re down the depth chart), they have a full time job during school between practice and school.



onceacat
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Posts: 3615
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:35 pm

Re: Paying athletes....

Post by onceacat » Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:56 pm

bobcat99 wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:31 am
BobcatDel wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:16 am
bobcat99 wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:00 am
BobcatDel wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:40 pm
bobcat99 wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:11 am
Montanabob wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:59 am
So one athlete just got $2 million for NIL. Explain to me how it's not pay to play
A little context is needed here.

Hercy Miller got a $2 million deal over 4 years. Who is Hercy Miller? He’s the son of Master P. To some of you, that means nothing. But he’s a pretty famous rapper and producer, worth a few hundred mil. That is why Hercy is getting the deal, which isn’t from the school. It’s from a company that as far as I know, has no connection to the school.

So you tell me, how is this pay for play? Bc the deal is mainly bc of who the kids dad is.
In the Miller case perhaps it is or perhaps it is not. I don’t know. But several of the other examples popping up and earnings approaching $million being quoted border on pay for play. Kids have developed name recognition starting with their college athletics through a university and have built “followings” from that exposure. Schools can and some “will” promise or develop pipelines to draw kids promising they will enhance their images and value. Whether you call that pay for play or not, they will use the promise of financial incentives or potential earnings to lure kids.

It is just too early in the game for me to predict all the scenarios that may happen…..but when you start talking money at these levels some strange things happen…unforeseen schemes. Creative minds will garner ideas and implement plans to make money we probably don’t foresee today and lure kids to your university.

Some of the numbers being quoted in Newsweek were interesting…. Describing what followers on different social media platforms were worth. All kinds of scenarios can be thought of. A negative example….. Can some of the focus on promoting themselves or maintaining a social media image take away from a college athletes training time, alter on-the-court behavior or appearance, or lower meeting educational expectations. If it does in a negative way and a kid gets benched, is the coach liable for reducing his/her playing time thus impacting social media value and can the athlete….she/he sue the school for value impact?

I know Congress said they would work with the NCAA to draft a set of workable rules to guide programs….but from everything I am seeing the train is well down the tracks and moving quickly in a lot of areas.
Schools have promised athletes good jobs because of the connections at the school. So now they’ll promote possible NIL contracts bc of connections and that’s pay for play? That logic doesn’t hold up to me.

You’re also way off base on thinking the colleges make them popular, and make them known. They help in that regard, but a lot of these athletes are well known commodities before college. Take that gymnast from LSU, she doesn’t have a million followers because she goes to LSU, she has those followers for a few other reasons, all having to do with herself. Why shouldn’t she be allowed to profit off of that, if she wants to?

At the end of the day, universities have made big business out of college football. Coaching staffs cost tens of millions a year. Hundreds of millions in facilities. BILLIONS in revenue. And we don’t think the main people involved should be able to make money? What a crock of ****** that is. People here are quick to spout “jimmies and joes, not X’s and O’s“, but apparently that doesn’t count when it comes to profiting, right?
For us ignorant types…what do you mean “jimmies and Joe’s”?

So you think “most” of the universities in the NCAA make “billions” in revenue? Interesting perspective. Most of the programs I know, at least at our level, make barely enough to fund the athletic departments to keep the rest of the kids on the court in uniforms. Look at all the schools, even some Power 5 conferences, dropping other sports programs during this Covid crisis…that tells you revenues are not large enough across the spectrum to pay to continue participation. Lot of those new buildings I am familiar with come on the backs of private wealthy donors or local special taxation benefits and not university athletic revenues…..of course success on the court or field tends to open up the pocket books.

So you think Dunne would be popular as she is without a platform like LSU? Another interesting perspective. She is undoubtedly a great athlete on her own. Guess she could have participated in some exclusive gymnastic club and skipped college and tried to build her popularity that way. She could have had a marketing campaign to convince everyone she was good, really really good even though she may not have had the same level of competition to compete against to showcase her skills. She could have sought out private sponsors while at the private club until she reached a level to make the Olympic trials without competing against NCAA talent. But yeah guess this dumb old country kid thinks LSU kinda helps her showcase her skill set against the top competition in the country on national TV at times and does help her build her popularity even more. Oh well..just ignorant I guess.

There certainly are schools in the upper echelon that are very wealthy as you note and they will certainly have a new way in to recruiting kids. Take the University of Texas. I don’t know of any other school that has their own TV Network….maybe they are out there. But what an advantage to tell a kid in any sport…golf, tennis, volleyball, dumpster diving…etc. that you are guaranteed National and regional TV exposure to help you with branding and selling your image. You don’t think that is bordering on “pay to play”?

Yep. Paying kids $30 to 80,000 scholarships (at least within scholarship limits) has always been done and is certainly more than I was paid to go to school. And yes schools have helped kids get summer jobs to help during summer months. Those all had to go through a rigorous review to meet NCAA protocol…they do here in Bozeman anyway. And yes boosters have been able to help with summer school fees and costs for many years again all applied to educational needs. And yes FCOA is something that should be pursued to help athletes. And certainly some level of compensation may be worthy for kids. But how much is that….is it a few thousand, is it millions, is in tens of millions, is it “the skies the limit”? Will college sports become like semi-pro, minor league or farm teams? Why have any scholarship limits now? What is the definition of amateur sports in the new world? Can a team that doesn’t foster business opportunities in NIL even compete in the new world and can colleges create new methods to harness marketing their kids and conversely get a piece of the action to help fund athletics too (kinda like sports agents to the pros)? What is the liability for ruining reputation and damage to NIL?

I am not saying I am against this change…..I am saying that we are entering a new era in college athletics and for the size of some of the dollars being discussed it will create scenarios we don’t envision now. You may be perfectly happy with it…great
Jimmies and Joe’s are the players. The idea behind what I quoted is that having good players is more important than scheme, and it’s correct.

Billions in revenue is in regard to the whole of college football.

Dunne is probably a good gymnast. But with all due respect to her and LSU, that ain’t the only reason she’s very popular. She’s helping LSU as much or more in terms of attention than they are helping her.

I think Justice Kavanaugh framed it perfectly regarding the NCAA and paying student athletes.

“Nowhere else in America can businesses get away with agreeing not to pay their workers a fair market rate on the theory that their product is defined by not paying their workers a fair market rate," Kavanaugh wrote. "And under ordinary principles of antitrust law, it is not evident why college sports should be any different.

"The NCAA is not above the law."

Btw, what’s the problem with pay for play? I get paid for the work I do. I’m assuming you do too. Thinking that sports in modern day college, especially for the major men’s sports, is anything but work, is naive. Players can hardly have summer jobs (if you miss the “voluntary” workouts, all of a sudden you’re down the depth chart), they have a full time job during school between practice and school.
Right!? I mean, even Olympic athletes get paid these days. NCAA athletes are LITERALLY the only ones who don't (other than the cost of education over 5 years). PLUS the NCAA uses the images of athletes (remember the Ed O'Bannon case?) to make billions on licensing deals...AND at the same time prohibits the athletes from doing so.

Of course, the NBA & NFL help out by agreeing to force students to play a minimum number of years in the free franchise system so that the NFL/NBA can take advantage of taxpayer subsidies for their farm programs (because apparently milking taxpayers for stadiums isn't really enough....)

In reality, what this really does is shines a spotlight on the corrupt deal between professional sports and their unpaid farm systems...and, damn, is it UGLY.



User avatar
AFCAT
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 9170
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:25 pm

Re: Paying athletes....

Post by AFCAT » Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:06 pm

onceacat wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:56 pm
bobcat99 wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:31 am
BobcatDel wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:16 am
bobcat99 wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:00 am
BobcatDel wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:40 pm
bobcat99 wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:11 am
Montanabob wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:59 am
So one athlete just got $2 million for NIL. Explain to me how it's not pay to play
A little context is needed here.

Hercy Miller got a $2 million deal over 4 years. Who is Hercy Miller? He’s the son of Master P. To some of you, that means nothing. But he’s a pretty famous rapper and producer, worth a few hundred mil. That is why Hercy is getting the deal, which isn’t from the school. It’s from a company that as far as I know, has no connection to the school.

So you tell me, how is this pay for play? Bc the deal is mainly bc of who the kids dad is.
In the Miller case perhaps it is or perhaps it is not. I don’t know. But several of the other examples popping up and earnings approaching $million being quoted border on pay for play. Kids have developed name recognition starting with their college athletics through a university and have built “followings” from that exposure. Schools can and some “will” promise or develop pipelines to draw kids promising they will enhance their images and value. Whether you call that pay for play or not, they will use the promise of financial incentives or potential earnings to lure kids.

It is just too early in the game for me to predict all the scenarios that may happen…..but when you start talking money at these levels some strange things happen…unforeseen schemes. Creative minds will garner ideas and implement plans to make money we probably don’t foresee today and lure kids to your university.

Some of the numbers being quoted in Newsweek were interesting…. Describing what followers on different social media platforms were worth. All kinds of scenarios can be thought of. A negative example….. Can some of the focus on promoting themselves or maintaining a social media image take away from a college athletes training time, alter on-the-court behavior or appearance, or lower meeting educational expectations. If it does in a negative way and a kid gets benched, is the coach liable for reducing his/her playing time thus impacting social media value and can the athlete….she/he sue the school for value impact?

I know Congress said they would work with the NCAA to draft a set of workable rules to guide programs….but from everything I am seeing the train is well down the tracks and moving quickly in a lot of areas.
Schools have promised athletes good jobs because of the connections at the school. So now they’ll promote possible NIL contracts bc of connections and that’s pay for play? That logic doesn’t hold up to me.

You’re also way off base on thinking the colleges make them popular, and make them known. They help in that regard, but a lot of these athletes are well known commodities before college. Take that gymnast from LSU, she doesn’t have a million followers because she goes to LSU, she has those followers for a few other reasons, all having to do with herself. Why shouldn’t she be allowed to profit off of that, if she wants to?

At the end of the day, universities have made big business out of college football. Coaching staffs cost tens of millions a year. Hundreds of millions in facilities. BILLIONS in revenue. And we don’t think the main people involved should be able to make money? What a crock of ****** that is. People here are quick to spout “jimmies and joes, not X’s and O’s“, but apparently that doesn’t count when it comes to profiting, right?
For us ignorant types…what do you mean “jimmies and Joe’s”?

So you think “most” of the universities in the NCAA make “billions” in revenue? Interesting perspective. Most of the programs I know, at least at our level, make barely enough to fund the athletic departments to keep the rest of the kids on the court in uniforms. Look at all the schools, even some Power 5 conferences, dropping other sports programs during this Covid crisis…that tells you revenues are not large enough across the spectrum to pay to continue participation. Lot of those new buildings I am familiar with come on the backs of private wealthy donors or local special taxation benefits and not university athletic revenues…..of course success on the court or field tends to open up the pocket books.

So you think Dunne would be popular as she is without a platform like LSU? Another interesting perspective. She is undoubtedly a great athlete on her own. Guess she could have participated in some exclusive gymnastic club and skipped college and tried to build her popularity that way. She could have had a marketing campaign to convince everyone she was good, really really good even though she may not have had the same level of competition to compete against to showcase her skills. She could have sought out private sponsors while at the private club until she reached a level to make the Olympic trials without competing against NCAA talent. But yeah guess this dumb old country kid thinks LSU kinda helps her showcase her skill set against the top competition in the country on national TV at times and does help her build her popularity even more. Oh well..just ignorant I guess.

There certainly are schools in the upper echelon that are very wealthy as you note and they will certainly have a new way in to recruiting kids. Take the University of Texas. I don’t know of any other school that has their own TV Network….maybe they are out there. But what an advantage to tell a kid in any sport…golf, tennis, volleyball, dumpster diving…etc. that you are guaranteed National and regional TV exposure to help you with branding and selling your image. You don’t think that is bordering on “pay to play”?

Yep. Paying kids $30 to 80,000 scholarships (at least within scholarship limits) has always been done and is certainly more than I was paid to go to school. And yes schools have helped kids get summer jobs to help during summer months. Those all had to go through a rigorous review to meet NCAA protocol…they do here in Bozeman anyway. And yes boosters have been able to help with summer school fees and costs for many years again all applied to educational needs. And yes FCOA is something that should be pursued to help athletes. And certainly some level of compensation may be worthy for kids. But how much is that….is it a few thousand, is it millions, is in tens of millions, is it “the skies the limit”? Will college sports become like semi-pro, minor league or farm teams? Why have any scholarship limits now? What is the definition of amateur sports in the new world? Can a team that doesn’t foster business opportunities in NIL even compete in the new world and can colleges create new methods to harness marketing their kids and conversely get a piece of the action to help fund athletics too (kinda like sports agents to the pros)? What is the liability for ruining reputation and damage to NIL?

I am not saying I am against this change…..I am saying that we are entering a new era in college athletics and for the size of some of the dollars being discussed it will create scenarios we don’t envision now. You may be perfectly happy with it…great
Jimmies and Joe’s are the players. The idea behind what I quoted is that having good players is more important than scheme, and it’s correct.

Billions in revenue is in regard to the whole of college football.

Dunne is probably a good gymnast. But with all due respect to her and LSU, that ain’t the only reason she’s very popular. She’s helping LSU as much or more in terms of attention than they are helping her.

I think Justice Kavanaugh framed it perfectly regarding the NCAA and paying student athletes.

“Nowhere else in America can businesses get away with agreeing not to pay their workers a fair market rate on the theory that their product is defined by not paying their workers a fair market rate," Kavanaugh wrote. "And under ordinary principles of antitrust law, it is not evident why college sports should be any different.

"The NCAA is not above the law."

Btw, what’s the problem with pay for play? I get paid for the work I do. I’m assuming you do too. Thinking that sports in modern day college, especially for the major men’s sports, is anything but work, is naive. Players can hardly have summer jobs (if you miss the “voluntary” workouts, all of a sudden you’re down the depth chart), they have a full time job during school between practice and school.
Right!? I mean, even Olympic athletes get paid these days. NCAA athletes are LITERALLY the only ones who don't (other than the cost of education over 5 years). PLUS the NCAA uses the images of athletes (remember the Ed O'Bannon case?) to make billions on licensing deals...AND at the same time prohibits the athletes from doing so.

Of course, the NBA & NFL help out by agreeing to force students to play a minimum number of years in the free franchise system so that the NFL/NBA can take advantage of taxpayer subsidies for their farm programs (because apparently milking taxpayers for stadiums isn't really enough....)

In reality, what this really does is shines a spotlight on the corrupt deal between professional sports and their unpaid farm systems...and, damn, is it UGLY.
The NFL and NBA don’t force players to go to college before playing in their leagues. I don’t think you are going to find many high school players NFL ready anyway. I believe NBA players only need to be 19 years old to play in the league. I can’t remember the exact number of years out of high school a player has to be to join an NFL team, but it’s only two or three, no college required but definitely recommended.

I agree with the rest though.

Oh, I doubt we will ever see the NFL pony up any cash to universities. The NFL is so money hungry they charged the DoD for all those Support the Troops events at NFL stadiums.


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bobcat99
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 4415
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:11 am

Re: Paying athletes....

Post by bobcat99 » Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:33 am

AFCAT wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:06 pm
onceacat wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:56 pm
bobcat99 wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:31 am
BobcatDel wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:16 am
bobcat99 wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:00 am
BobcatDel wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:40 pm
bobcat99 wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:11 am
Montanabob wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:59 am
So one athlete just got $2 million for NIL. Explain to me how it's not pay to play
A little context is needed here.

Hercy Miller got a $2 million deal over 4 years. Who is Hercy Miller? He’s the son of Master P. To some of you, that means nothing. But he’s a pretty famous rapper and producer, worth a few hundred mil. That is why Hercy is getting the deal, which isn’t from the school. It’s from a company that as far as I know, has no connection to the school.

So you tell me, how is this pay for play? Bc the deal is mainly bc of who the kids dad is.
In the Miller case perhaps it is or perhaps it is not. I don’t know. But several of the other examples popping up and earnings approaching $million being quoted border on pay for play. Kids have developed name recognition starting with their college athletics through a university and have built “followings” from that exposure. Schools can and some “will” promise or develop pipelines to draw kids promising they will enhance their images and value. Whether you call that pay for play or not, they will use the promise of financial incentives or potential earnings to lure kids.

It is just too early in the game for me to predict all the scenarios that may happen…..but when you start talking money at these levels some strange things happen…unforeseen schemes. Creative minds will garner ideas and implement plans to make money we probably don’t foresee today and lure kids to your university.

Some of the numbers being quoted in Newsweek were interesting…. Describing what followers on different social media platforms were worth. All kinds of scenarios can be thought of. A negative example….. Can some of the focus on promoting themselves or maintaining a social media image take away from a college athletes training time, alter on-the-court behavior or appearance, or lower meeting educational expectations. If it does in a negative way and a kid gets benched, is the coach liable for reducing his/her playing time thus impacting social media value and can the athlete….she/he sue the school for value impact?

I know Congress said they would work with the NCAA to draft a set of workable rules to guide programs….but from everything I am seeing the train is well down the tracks and moving quickly in a lot of areas.
Schools have promised athletes good jobs because of the connections at the school. So now they’ll promote possible NIL contracts bc of connections and that’s pay for play? That logic doesn’t hold up to me.

You’re also way off base on thinking the colleges make them popular, and make them known. They help in that regard, but a lot of these athletes are well known commodities before college. Take that gymnast from LSU, she doesn’t have a million followers because she goes to LSU, she has those followers for a few other reasons, all having to do with herself. Why shouldn’t she be allowed to profit off of that, if she wants to?

At the end of the day, universities have made big business out of college football. Coaching staffs cost tens of millions a year. Hundreds of millions in facilities. BILLIONS in revenue. And we don’t think the main people involved should be able to make money? What a crock of ****** that is. People here are quick to spout “jimmies and joes, not X’s and O’s“, but apparently that doesn’t count when it comes to profiting, right?
For us ignorant types…what do you mean “jimmies and Joe’s”?

So you think “most” of the universities in the NCAA make “billions” in revenue? Interesting perspective. Most of the programs I know, at least at our level, make barely enough to fund the athletic departments to keep the rest of the kids on the court in uniforms. Look at all the schools, even some Power 5 conferences, dropping other sports programs during this Covid crisis…that tells you revenues are not large enough across the spectrum to pay to continue participation. Lot of those new buildings I am familiar with come on the backs of private wealthy donors or local special taxation benefits and not university athletic revenues…..of course success on the court or field tends to open up the pocket books.

So you think Dunne would be popular as she is without a platform like LSU? Another interesting perspective. She is undoubtedly a great athlete on her own. Guess she could have participated in some exclusive gymnastic club and skipped college and tried to build her popularity that way. She could have had a marketing campaign to convince everyone she was good, really really good even though she may not have had the same level of competition to compete against to showcase her skills. She could have sought out private sponsors while at the private club until she reached a level to make the Olympic trials without competing against NCAA talent. But yeah guess this dumb old country kid thinks LSU kinda helps her showcase her skill set against the top competition in the country on national TV at times and does help her build her popularity even more. Oh well..just ignorant I guess.

There certainly are schools in the upper echelon that are very wealthy as you note and they will certainly have a new way in to recruiting kids. Take the University of Texas. I don’t know of any other school that has their own TV Network….maybe they are out there. But what an advantage to tell a kid in any sport…golf, tennis, volleyball, dumpster diving…etc. that you are guaranteed National and regional TV exposure to help you with branding and selling your image. You don’t think that is bordering on “pay to play”?

Yep. Paying kids $30 to 80,000 scholarships (at least within scholarship limits) has always been done and is certainly more than I was paid to go to school. And yes schools have helped kids get summer jobs to help during summer months. Those all had to go through a rigorous review to meet NCAA protocol…they do here in Bozeman anyway. And yes boosters have been able to help with summer school fees and costs for many years again all applied to educational needs. And yes FCOA is something that should be pursued to help athletes. And certainly some level of compensation may be worthy for kids. But how much is that….is it a few thousand, is it millions, is in tens of millions, is it “the skies the limit”? Will college sports become like semi-pro, minor league or farm teams? Why have any scholarship limits now? What is the definition of amateur sports in the new world? Can a team that doesn’t foster business opportunities in NIL even compete in the new world and can colleges create new methods to harness marketing their kids and conversely get a piece of the action to help fund athletics too (kinda like sports agents to the pros)? What is the liability for ruining reputation and damage to NIL?

I am not saying I am against this change…..I am saying that we are entering a new era in college athletics and for the size of some of the dollars being discussed it will create scenarios we don’t envision now. You may be perfectly happy with it…great
Jimmies and Joe’s are the players. The idea behind what I quoted is that having good players is more important than scheme, and it’s correct.

Billions in revenue is in regard to the whole of college football.

Dunne is probably a good gymnast. But with all due respect to her and LSU, that ain’t the only reason she’s very popular. She’s helping LSU as much or more in terms of attention than they are helping her.

I think Justice Kavanaugh framed it perfectly regarding the NCAA and paying student athletes.

“Nowhere else in America can businesses get away with agreeing not to pay their workers a fair market rate on the theory that their product is defined by not paying their workers a fair market rate," Kavanaugh wrote. "And under ordinary principles of antitrust law, it is not evident why college sports should be any different.

"The NCAA is not above the law."

Btw, what’s the problem with pay for play? I get paid for the work I do. I’m assuming you do too. Thinking that sports in modern day college, especially for the major men’s sports, is anything but work, is naive. Players can hardly have summer jobs (if you miss the “voluntary” workouts, all of a sudden you’re down the depth chart), they have a full time job during school between practice and school.
Right!? I mean, even Olympic athletes get paid these days. NCAA athletes are LITERALLY the only ones who don't (other than the cost of education over 5 years). PLUS the NCAA uses the images of athletes (remember the Ed O'Bannon case?) to make billions on licensing deals...AND at the same time prohibits the athletes from doing so.

Of course, the NBA & NFL help out by agreeing to force students to play a minimum number of years in the free franchise system so that the NFL/NBA can take advantage of taxpayer subsidies for their farm programs (because apparently milking taxpayers for stadiums isn't really enough....)

In reality, what this really does is shines a spotlight on the corrupt deal between professional sports and their unpaid farm systems...and, damn, is it UGLY.
The NFL and NBA don’t force players to go to college before playing in their leagues. I don’t think you are going to find many high school players NFL ready anyway. I believe NBA players only need to be 19 years old to play in the league. I can’t remember the exact number of years out of high school a player has to be to join an NFL team, but it’s only two or three, no college required but definitely recommended.

I agree with the rest though.

Oh, I doubt we will ever see the NFL pony up any cash to universities. The NFL is so money hungry they charged the DoD for all those Support the Troops events at NFL stadiums.
The NFL essentially does force players to go to college. You just be 3 years removed from HS to enter the NFL, and seeing as how there aren’t really any other adequate avenues to play and develop, they gotta go to college. I don’t have a problem with it, 99.9% aren’t mentally or physically mature enough to play in the NFL out of HS, but let’s call a spade a spade. They have no other realistic options.

The NBA has seen some changes as of late, especially as their are adequate avenues that aren’t college. Some have gone to play in Australia, China, Europe, as the NBA requires one year post HS before anybody can play. So players are forced to go somewhere else, and usually that is a university.



User avatar
AFCAT
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 9170
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:25 pm

Re: Paying athletes....

Post by AFCAT » Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:24 am

bobcat99 wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:33 am
AFCAT wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:06 pm
onceacat wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:56 pm
bobcat99 wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:31 am
BobcatDel wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:16 am
bobcat99 wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:00 am
BobcatDel wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:40 pm
bobcat99 wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:11 am
Montanabob wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:59 am
So one athlete just got $2 million for NIL. Explain to me how it's not pay to play
A little context is needed here.

Hercy Miller got a $2 million deal over 4 years. Who is Hercy Miller? He’s the son of Master P. To some of you, that means nothing. But he’s a pretty famous rapper and producer, worth a few hundred mil. That is why Hercy is getting the deal, which isn’t from the school. It’s from a company that as far as I know, has no connection to the school.

So you tell me, how is this pay for play? Bc the deal is mainly bc of who the kids dad is.
In the Miller case perhaps it is or perhaps it is not. I don’t know. But several of the other examples popping up and earnings approaching $million being quoted border on pay for play. Kids have developed name recognition starting with their college athletics through a university and have built “followings” from that exposure. Schools can and some “will” promise or develop pipelines to draw kids promising they will enhance their images and value. Whether you call that pay for play or not, they will use the promise of financial incentives or potential earnings to lure kids.

It is just too early in the game for me to predict all the scenarios that may happen…..but when you start talking money at these levels some strange things happen…unforeseen schemes. Creative minds will garner ideas and implement plans to make money we probably don’t foresee today and lure kids to your university.

Some of the numbers being quoted in Newsweek were interesting…. Describing what followers on different social media platforms were worth. All kinds of scenarios can be thought of. A negative example….. Can some of the focus on promoting themselves or maintaining a social media image take away from a college athletes training time, alter on-the-court behavior or appearance, or lower meeting educational expectations. If it does in a negative way and a kid gets benched, is the coach liable for reducing his/her playing time thus impacting social media value and can the athlete….she/he sue the school for value impact?

I know Congress said they would work with the NCAA to draft a set of workable rules to guide programs….but from everything I am seeing the train is well down the tracks and moving quickly in a lot of areas.
Schools have promised athletes good jobs because of the connections at the school. So now they’ll promote possible NIL contracts bc of connections and that’s pay for play? That logic doesn’t hold up to me.

You’re also way off base on thinking the colleges make them popular, and make them known. They help in that regard, but a lot of these athletes are well known commodities before college. Take that gymnast from LSU, she doesn’t have a million followers because she goes to LSU, she has those followers for a few other reasons, all having to do with herself. Why shouldn’t she be allowed to profit off of that, if she wants to?

At the end of the day, universities have made big business out of college football. Coaching staffs cost tens of millions a year. Hundreds of millions in facilities. BILLIONS in revenue. And we don’t think the main people involved should be able to make money? What a crock of ****** that is. People here are quick to spout “jimmies and joes, not X’s and O’s“, but apparently that doesn’t count when it comes to profiting, right?
For us ignorant types…what do you mean “jimmies and Joe’s”?

So you think “most” of the universities in the NCAA make “billions” in revenue? Interesting perspective. Most of the programs I know, at least at our level, make barely enough to fund the athletic departments to keep the rest of the kids on the court in uniforms. Look at all the schools, even some Power 5 conferences, dropping other sports programs during this Covid crisis…that tells you revenues are not large enough across the spectrum to pay to continue participation. Lot of those new buildings I am familiar with come on the backs of private wealthy donors or local special taxation benefits and not university athletic revenues…..of course success on the court or field tends to open up the pocket books.

So you think Dunne would be popular as she is without a platform like LSU? Another interesting perspective. She is undoubtedly a great athlete on her own. Guess she could have participated in some exclusive gymnastic club and skipped college and tried to build her popularity that way. She could have had a marketing campaign to convince everyone she was good, really really good even though she may not have had the same level of competition to compete against to showcase her skills. She could have sought out private sponsors while at the private club until she reached a level to make the Olympic trials without competing against NCAA talent. But yeah guess this dumb old country kid thinks LSU kinda helps her showcase her skill set against the top competition in the country on national TV at times and does help her build her popularity even more. Oh well..just ignorant I guess.

There certainly are schools in the upper echelon that are very wealthy as you note and they will certainly have a new way in to recruiting kids. Take the University of Texas. I don’t know of any other school that has their own TV Network….maybe they are out there. But what an advantage to tell a kid in any sport…golf, tennis, volleyball, dumpster diving…etc. that you are guaranteed National and regional TV exposure to help you with branding and selling your image. You don’t think that is bordering on “pay to play”?

Yep. Paying kids $30 to 80,000 scholarships (at least within scholarship limits) has always been done and is certainly more than I was paid to go to school. And yes schools have helped kids get summer jobs to help during summer months. Those all had to go through a rigorous review to meet NCAA protocol…they do here in Bozeman anyway. And yes boosters have been able to help with summer school fees and costs for many years again all applied to educational needs. And yes FCOA is something that should be pursued to help athletes. And certainly some level of compensation may be worthy for kids. But how much is that….is it a few thousand, is it millions, is in tens of millions, is it “the skies the limit”? Will college sports become like semi-pro, minor league or farm teams? Why have any scholarship limits now? What is the definition of amateur sports in the new world? Can a team that doesn’t foster business opportunities in NIL even compete in the new world and can colleges create new methods to harness marketing their kids and conversely get a piece of the action to help fund athletics too (kinda like sports agents to the pros)? What is the liability for ruining reputation and damage to NIL?

I am not saying I am against this change…..I am saying that we are entering a new era in college athletics and for the size of some of the dollars being discussed it will create scenarios we don’t envision now. You may be perfectly happy with it…great
Jimmies and Joe’s are the players. The idea behind what I quoted is that having good players is more important than scheme, and it’s correct.

Billions in revenue is in regard to the whole of college football.

Dunne is probably a good gymnast. But with all due respect to her and LSU, that ain’t the only reason she’s very popular. She’s helping LSU as much or more in terms of attention than they are helping her.

I think Justice Kavanaugh framed it perfectly regarding the NCAA and paying student athletes.

“Nowhere else in America can businesses get away with agreeing not to pay their workers a fair market rate on the theory that their product is defined by not paying their workers a fair market rate," Kavanaugh wrote. "And under ordinary principles of antitrust law, it is not evident why college sports should be any different.

"The NCAA is not above the law."

Btw, what’s the problem with pay for play? I get paid for the work I do. I’m assuming you do too. Thinking that sports in modern day college, especially for the major men’s sports, is anything but work, is naive. Players can hardly have summer jobs (if you miss the “voluntary” workouts, all of a sudden you’re down the depth chart), they have a full time job during school between practice and school.
Right!? I mean, even Olympic athletes get paid these days. NCAA athletes are LITERALLY the only ones who don't (other than the cost of education over 5 years). PLUS the NCAA uses the images of athletes (remember the Ed O'Bannon case?) to make billions on licensing deals...AND at the same time prohibits the athletes from doing so.

Of course, the NBA & NFL help out by agreeing to force students to play a minimum number of years in the free franchise system so that the NFL/NBA can take advantage of taxpayer subsidies for their farm programs (because apparently milking taxpayers for stadiums isn't really enough....)

In reality, what this really does is shines a spotlight on the corrupt deal between professional sports and their unpaid farm systems...and, damn, is it UGLY.
The NFL and NBA don’t force players to go to college before playing in their leagues. I don’t think you are going to find many high school players NFL ready anyway. I believe NBA players only need to be 19 years old to play in the league. I can’t remember the exact number of years out of high school a player has to be to join an NFL team, but it’s only two or three, no college required but definitely recommended.

I agree with the rest though.

Oh, I doubt we will ever see the NFL pony up any cash to universities. The NFL is so money hungry they charged the DoD for all those Support the Troops events at NFL stadiums.
The NFL essentially does force players to go to college. You just be 3 years removed from HS to enter the NFL, and seeing as how there aren’t really any other adequate avenues to play and develop, they gotta go to college. I don’t have a problem with it, 99.9% aren’t mentally or physically mature enough to play in the NFL out of HS, but let’s call a spade a spade. They have no other realistic options.

The NBA has seen some changes as of late, especially as their are adequate avenues that aren’t college. Some have gone to play in Australia, China, Europe, as the NBA requires one year post HS before anybody can play. So players are forced to go somewhere else, and usually that is a university.
I disagree, the NFL doesn't force anyone. People choose to go to college because that's the best route and the most common route people use to get to the NFL. There is the semi-pro ball route and some players have even come from overseas rugby teams. Now, I believe college is essentially the absolute best route to the NFL if a player realistically has any chance at a career, but there is free will involved too and nobody is forced to go to college. Trey Lance is the most recent example of a guy that didn't even play three years of college ball and made it to the NFL, although he may be three years removed from High School. Time will tell how critical the arbitrary 3-years after high school rule and limited college experience is to his NFL development.

The current NBA standard is 19 years old but history has shown us that players (Kobe Bryant, Moses Malone, LeBron James, and others) with superior skills from High School can definitely make the leap to the NBA. That's a rule that should probably change.


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bobcat99
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Re: Paying athletes....

Post by bobcat99 » Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:46 pm

AFCAT wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:24 am
bobcat99 wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:33 am
AFCAT wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:06 pm
onceacat wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:56 pm
bobcat99 wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:31 am
BobcatDel wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:16 am
bobcat99 wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:00 am
BobcatDel wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:40 pm
bobcat99 wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:11 am
Montanabob wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:59 am
So one athlete just got $2 million for NIL. Explain to me how it's not pay to play
A little context is needed here.

Hercy Miller got a $2 million deal over 4 years. Who is Hercy Miller? He’s the son of Master P. To some of you, that means nothing. But he’s a pretty famous rapper and producer, worth a few hundred mil. That is why Hercy is getting the deal, which isn’t from the school. It’s from a company that as far as I know, has no connection to the school.

So you tell me, how is this pay for play? Bc the deal is mainly bc of who the kids dad is.
In the Miller case perhaps it is or perhaps it is not. I don’t know. But several of the other examples popping up and earnings approaching $million being quoted border on pay for play. Kids have developed name recognition starting with their college athletics through a university and have built “followings” from that exposure. Schools can and some “will” promise or develop pipelines to draw kids promising they will enhance their images and value. Whether you call that pay for play or not, they will use the promise of financial incentives or potential earnings to lure kids.

It is just too early in the game for me to predict all the scenarios that may happen…..but when you start talking money at these levels some strange things happen…unforeseen schemes. Creative minds will garner ideas and implement plans to make money we probably don’t foresee today and lure kids to your university.

Some of the numbers being quoted in Newsweek were interesting…. Describing what followers on different social media platforms were worth. All kinds of scenarios can be thought of. A negative example….. Can some of the focus on promoting themselves or maintaining a social media image take away from a college athletes training time, alter on-the-court behavior or appearance, or lower meeting educational expectations. If it does in a negative way and a kid gets benched, is the coach liable for reducing his/her playing time thus impacting social media value and can the athlete….she/he sue the school for value impact?

I know Congress said they would work with the NCAA to draft a set of workable rules to guide programs….but from everything I am seeing the train is well down the tracks and moving quickly in a lot of areas.
Schools have promised athletes good jobs because of the connections at the school. So now they’ll promote possible NIL contracts bc of connections and that’s pay for play? That logic doesn’t hold up to me.

You’re also way off base on thinking the colleges make them popular, and make them known. They help in that regard, but a lot of these athletes are well known commodities before college. Take that gymnast from LSU, she doesn’t have a million followers because she goes to LSU, she has those followers for a few other reasons, all having to do with herself. Why shouldn’t she be allowed to profit off of that, if she wants to?

At the end of the day, universities have made big business out of college football. Coaching staffs cost tens of millions a year. Hundreds of millions in facilities. BILLIONS in revenue. And we don’t think the main people involved should be able to make money? What a crock of ****** that is. People here are quick to spout “jimmies and joes, not X’s and O’s“, but apparently that doesn’t count when it comes to profiting, right?
For us ignorant types…what do you mean “jimmies and Joe’s”?

So you think “most” of the universities in the NCAA make “billions” in revenue? Interesting perspective. Most of the programs I know, at least at our level, make barely enough to fund the athletic departments to keep the rest of the kids on the court in uniforms. Look at all the schools, even some Power 5 conferences, dropping other sports programs during this Covid crisis…that tells you revenues are not large enough across the spectrum to pay to continue participation. Lot of those new buildings I am familiar with come on the backs of private wealthy donors or local special taxation benefits and not university athletic revenues…..of course success on the court or field tends to open up the pocket books.

So you think Dunne would be popular as she is without a platform like LSU? Another interesting perspective. She is undoubtedly a great athlete on her own. Guess she could have participated in some exclusive gymnastic club and skipped college and tried to build her popularity that way. She could have had a marketing campaign to convince everyone she was good, really really good even though she may not have had the same level of competition to compete against to showcase her skills. She could have sought out private sponsors while at the private club until she reached a level to make the Olympic trials without competing against NCAA talent. But yeah guess this dumb old country kid thinks LSU kinda helps her showcase her skill set against the top competition in the country on national TV at times and does help her build her popularity even more. Oh well..just ignorant I guess.

There certainly are schools in the upper echelon that are very wealthy as you note and they will certainly have a new way in to recruiting kids. Take the University of Texas. I don’t know of any other school that has their own TV Network….maybe they are out there. But what an advantage to tell a kid in any sport…golf, tennis, volleyball, dumpster diving…etc. that you are guaranteed National and regional TV exposure to help you with branding and selling your image. You don’t think that is bordering on “pay to play”?

Yep. Paying kids $30 to 80,000 scholarships (at least within scholarship limits) has always been done and is certainly more than I was paid to go to school. And yes schools have helped kids get summer jobs to help during summer months. Those all had to go through a rigorous review to meet NCAA protocol…they do here in Bozeman anyway. And yes boosters have been able to help with summer school fees and costs for many years again all applied to educational needs. And yes FCOA is something that should be pursued to help athletes. And certainly some level of compensation may be worthy for kids. But how much is that….is it a few thousand, is it millions, is in tens of millions, is it “the skies the limit”? Will college sports become like semi-pro, minor league or farm teams? Why have any scholarship limits now? What is the definition of amateur sports in the new world? Can a team that doesn’t foster business opportunities in NIL even compete in the new world and can colleges create new methods to harness marketing their kids and conversely get a piece of the action to help fund athletics too (kinda like sports agents to the pros)? What is the liability for ruining reputation and damage to NIL?

I am not saying I am against this change…..I am saying that we are entering a new era in college athletics and for the size of some of the dollars being discussed it will create scenarios we don’t envision now. You may be perfectly happy with it…great
Jimmies and Joe’s are the players. The idea behind what I quoted is that having good players is more important than scheme, and it’s correct.

Billions in revenue is in regard to the whole of college football.

Dunne is probably a good gymnast. But with all due respect to her and LSU, that ain’t the only reason she’s very popular. She’s helping LSU as much or more in terms of attention than they are helping her.

I think Justice Kavanaugh framed it perfectly regarding the NCAA and paying student athletes.

“Nowhere else in America can businesses get away with agreeing not to pay their workers a fair market rate on the theory that their product is defined by not paying their workers a fair market rate," Kavanaugh wrote. "And under ordinary principles of antitrust law, it is not evident why college sports should be any different.

"The NCAA is not above the law."

Btw, what’s the problem with pay for play? I get paid for the work I do. I’m assuming you do too. Thinking that sports in modern day college, especially for the major men’s sports, is anything but work, is naive. Players can hardly have summer jobs (if you miss the “voluntary” workouts, all of a sudden you’re down the depth chart), they have a full time job during school between practice and school.
Right!? I mean, even Olympic athletes get paid these days. NCAA athletes are LITERALLY the only ones who don't (other than the cost of education over 5 years). PLUS the NCAA uses the images of athletes (remember the Ed O'Bannon case?) to make billions on licensing deals...AND at the same time prohibits the athletes from doing so.

Of course, the NBA & NFL help out by agreeing to force students to play a minimum number of years in the free franchise system so that the NFL/NBA can take advantage of taxpayer subsidies for their farm programs (because apparently milking taxpayers for stadiums isn't really enough....)

In reality, what this really does is shines a spotlight on the corrupt deal between professional sports and their unpaid farm systems...and, damn, is it UGLY.
The NFL and NBA don’t force players to go to college before playing in their leagues. I don’t think you are going to find many high school players NFL ready anyway. I believe NBA players only need to be 19 years old to play in the league. I can’t remember the exact number of years out of high school a player has to be to join an NFL team, but it’s only two or three, no college required but definitely recommended.

I agree with the rest though.

Oh, I doubt we will ever see the NFL pony up any cash to universities. The NFL is so money hungry they charged the DoD for all those Support the Troops events at NFL stadiums.
The NFL essentially does force players to go to college. You just be 3 years removed from HS to enter the NFL, and seeing as how there aren’t really any other adequate avenues to play and develop, they gotta go to college. I don’t have a problem with it, 99.9% aren’t mentally or physically mature enough to play in the NFL out of HS, but let’s call a spade a spade. They have no other realistic options.

The NBA has seen some changes as of late, especially as their are adequate avenues that aren’t college. Some have gone to play in Australia, China, Europe, as the NBA requires one year post HS before anybody can play. So players are forced to go somewhere else, and usually that is a university.
I disagree, the NFL doesn't force anyone. People choose to go to college because that's the best route and the most common route people use to get to the NFL. There is the semi-pro ball route and some players have even come from overseas rugby teams. Now, I believe college is essentially the absolute best route to the NFL if a player realistically has any chance at a career, but there is free will involved too and nobody is forced to go to college. Trey Lance is the most recent example of a guy that didn't even play three years of college ball and made it to the NFL, although he may be three years removed from High School. Time will tell how critical the arbitrary 3-years after high school rule and limited college experience is to his NFL development.

The current NBA standard is 19 years old but history has shown us that players (Kobe Bryant, Moses Malone, LeBron James, and others) with superior skills from High School can definitely make the leap to the NBA. That's a rule that should probably change.
Let’s say I’m a company that makes X. I’m really good at making X. Company A is the biggest and only company that buys my product. They want my product to be sourced with chemical D. Now I can do that, but it takes longer. I could make it with Chemical B, and it’s still a fine product, but there’s a good chance Company A will reject that product because of their standards. If I want to sell to them, and there are no other companies in this industry that are profitable, I am essentially forced to make it with Chemical B because that’s what they want.

Name one player that player Semi Pro that didn’t play college football that played in the NFL. Almost every rugby to NFL player has been a punter, the position players have been very bad.

Trey Lance is an example of why college development is important. Nobody in the FBS wanted him as a QB. Why would the NFL? Sure he only played two years, but he was in the weight room and practice for 3. He developed physically and mentally against people his own age.



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Re: Paying athletes....

Post by AFCAT » Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:57 pm

Just one? Efe Obada - Carolina Panthers. I know you like to have the last word, so I'll let you have it. I won't force you though.


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bobcat99
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Re: Paying athletes....

Post by bobcat99 » Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:03 pm

AFCAT wrote:
Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:57 pm
Just one? Efe Obada - Carolina Panthers. I know you like to have the last word, so I'll let you have it. I won't force you though.
Not sure that a professional European league would be the same as Semi-Pro, but I’ll give it to you. Congratulations, you found one!

Not sure why the dig at me, I don’t think I was being rude towards you. Sorry if I was, was not intentional.



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Re: Paying athletes....

Post by PapaG » Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:23 pm

Surprise surprise, The U is way ahead of NIL contracts for players. My idea of paying a male and female MSU athlete $500 to promote this website as an influencer is looking more realistic each day. What’s stopping Phil Knight from paying Oregon Duck players $2000 to $10,000/month to promote Nike?

https://www.espn.com/college-football/s ... cholarship


The owner of a Florida-based chain of mixed martial arts gyms unveiled big plans Tuesday to try to help Miami Hurricanes football players take advantage of new rules that allow them to make money.

Dan Lambert, the owner of American Top Team and a longtime Miami football fan, has offered each scholarship player on the Miami football team a monthly payment of $500 this year to advertise his gyms on social media. American Top Team is the home training facility for more than two dozen professional fighters, including Jorge Masvidal and Amanda Nunes.

Lambert's offer to the Hurricanes -- which could add up to as much as $540,000 this year -- is the largest reported sum for a college sports endorsement deal since new state laws and NCAA rules opened the doors for players to make money last week.


Seattle to Billings to Missoula to Bozeman to Portland to Billings

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PapaG
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Re: Paying athletes....

Post by PapaG » Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:37 pm

bobcat99 wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:00 am
BobcatDel wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:40 pm
bobcat99 wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:11 am
Montanabob wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:59 am
So one athlete just got $2 million for NIL. Explain to me how it's not pay to play
A little context is needed here.

Hercy Miller got a $2 million deal over 4 years. Who is Hercy Miller? He’s the son of Master P. To some of you, that means nothing. But he’s a pretty famous rapper and producer, worth a few hundred mil. That is why Hercy is getting the deal, which isn’t from the school. It’s from a company that as far as I know, has no connection to the school.

So you tell me, how is this pay for play? Bc the deal is mainly bc of who the kids dad is.
In the Miller case perhaps it is or perhaps it is not. I don’t know. But several of the other examples popping up and earnings approaching $million being quoted border on pay for play. Kids have developed name recognition starting with their college athletics through a university and have built “followings” from that exposure. Schools can and some “will” promise or develop pipelines to draw kids promising they will enhance their images and value. Whether you call that pay for play or not, they will use the promise of financial incentives or potential earnings to lure kids.

It is just too early in the game for me to predict all the scenarios that may happen…..but when you start talking money at these levels some strange things happen…unforeseen schemes. Creative minds will garner ideas and implement plans to make money we probably don’t foresee today and lure kids to your university.

Some of the numbers being quoted in Newsweek were interesting…. Describing what followers on different social media platforms were worth. All kinds of scenarios can be thought of. A negative example….. Can some of the focus on promoting themselves or maintaining a social media image take away from a college athletes training time, alter on-the-court behavior or appearance, or lower meeting educational expectations. If it does in a negative way and a kid gets benched, is the coach liable for reducing his/her playing time thus impacting social media value and can the athlete….she/he sue the school for value impact?

I know Congress said they would work with the NCAA to draft a set of workable rules to guide programs….but from everything I am seeing the train is well down the tracks and moving quickly in a lot of areas.
Schools have promised athletes good jobs because of the connections at the school. So now they’ll promote possible NIL contracts bc of connections and that’s pay for play? That logic doesn’t hold up to me.

You’re also way off base on thinking the colleges make them popular, and make them known. They help in that regard, but a lot of these athletes are well known commodities before college. Take that gymnast from LSU, she doesn’t have a million followers because she goes to LSU, she has those followers for a few other reasons, all having to do with herself. Why shouldn’t she be allowed to profit off of that, if she wants to?

At the end of the day, universities have made big business out of college football. Coaching staffs cost tens of millions a year. Hundreds of millions in facilities. BILLIONS in revenue. And we don’t think the main people involved should be able to make money? What a crock of ****** that is. People here are quick to spout “jimmies and joes, not X’s and O’s“, but apparently that doesn’t count when it comes to profiting, right?
If I’m an attractive male or female student-athlete and now can be paid why not set up a PG-13 or R-rated onlyfans accounts and make some money off of it? Even MA if the student-athlete wants to do so and they deserve the money. I’m happy this NIL rule passed because there are no bigger influencers on a campus like MSU than the ones who play sports.

My uncle started at point guard for the Bobcats for three years and made a buzzer-beater to beat the Griz and that’s why I grew up a Bobcat fan. It had nothing to with academics, Bozeman just felt like home because of all the games my Griz dad too me to there while growing up in Billings.
Last edited by PapaG on Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Seattle to Billings to Missoula to Bozeman to Portland to Billings

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Re: Paying athletes....

Post by HelenaCat95 » Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:40 pm

Let's come up with who we think should "endorse" what local product. I'll start:
Lewis Kidd and Tui - Storm Castle and/or Ford/Ram/Chevy Truck dealer
Chase Benson - The Pitt
Troy Anderson - (anything he wants to)

Who you got?



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