MSU’s next head coach

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kennethnoisewater
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Re: MSU’s next head coach

Post by kennethnoisewater » Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:48 pm

onceacat wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:34 pm
kennethnoisewater wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:34 pm
catfisherman wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:41 pm
I like Choate but what in his record besides beating Missoula 4 years in a row has shown us he is better than Ash? The 2010-2012 Ash teams were pretty good
If Ash had left in 2013 or so, he might be remembered more fondly. He won very few games his team wasn't favored in. That's great that the Bobcats were heavily favored, and he deserves credit for that, but at some point you have to upset somebody. His last couple years, the culture was not good. He had a good run and I'm thankful for the contributions he made to the program, but you can't dismiss the fact that Choate won some playoff games AND beat the Griz all four years. To me, that makes him very clearly a better coach than Ash. That's like saying "take away all those championships and MVP's and Michael Jordan really wasn't all that great of a player". That's literally what made him great. The fact that Choate won the big games Ash couldn't makes him unquestionably better IMO.
I agree 100% about the Griz games. What games other than that were the Cats underdogs? I don’t remember the odds off the top of my head, but the Cats were probably 7 point favorites against UIW, Albany, and APSU. Those 3 teams had a combined record of 26-14. Albany was ranked #25 coming into the game, APSU was ranked 18 going into the playoffs.

I don’t mean that as a knock...just an observation.

Are there any Choate era wins over a Top 10 team? (Honest question,I’m not sure) anyone not UM, that is?

I’m 100% in on Choate for all the reasons you listed, but I’m waiting for the sort of big upset before I’m willing to say his on field performance is better than Ash. Or a competitive game with NDSU or JMU.
I don't have specifics off the top of my head, but I can't think of all that many big games that Ash won. EWU in Cheney in what, 2011? That was a big one. But they squeaked by URI in the playoffs thanks to a missed kick and didn't look great against anybody else in the playoffs. It just seemed like his teams were worse in November and December. I will admit Choate's progress has been a little slow (mostly due to the lack of a great QB the first few years), and that his record against UM makes that look better, but give me Choate any day. Plus I think the OP is cherry picking a great three year run, and that's not a very accurate representation of Ash's tenure. If he'd have kept that going for another few years, he'd still be in Bozeman. But it has to reflect on him that he couldn't maintain that. And I really like Ash, I just like Choate that much more.


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Re: MSU’s next head coach

Post by vike_king » Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:53 pm

Kane


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Re: MSU’s next head coach

Post by bob12 » Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:43 pm

Ash showed up with a loaded cupboard, added some new pots and pans right away. He then proceeded to make steaks and scrambled eggs successfully. Once he was asked to make a prime rib or an omelet, he fumbled around like he didn't know what he was doing. Good line cook, not a chef.

In all seriousness though, Ash was basically hired to clean up a program, that while very talented lacked in a lot of things academically and socially. He was the right man for the right job at that time. He was also very successful for the most part. I enjoyed his time here but I was always frustrated by a lot of his in game decisions. The last game he coached, he looked like a man that knew his time was up. I don't want someone that had already accepted defeat. Choate doesn't look like that type of person and so I hope we keep him. If he is given the opportunity, that's amazing for him and his family. It also doesn't set us back. He has laid a great foundation that was also aided by President Cruzado and the entire administration. Let's stop cleaving everyone's accomplishments or lack thereof.



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Re: MSU’s next head coach

Post by MSU01 » Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:34 am

vike_king wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:53 pm
Kane
There are a lot of parallels between Kane and Danny Sprinkle, who appears to have been a slam-dunk of a hire for the men's basketball program and was clearly ready to step up from assistant to head coach at the time he was hired. I expect and hope that a national search would take place if Coach Choate does leave, but it makes so much sense to maintain continuity in the program at this time by promoting from within, and Kane to me is the clear choice if that's the direction they go in.

My apologies for derailing this thread from the 247th rehashing of Rob Ash's career at MSU.


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Re: MSU’s next head coach

Post by bobcat99 » Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:48 am

Apparently all of us have forgotten that Choate had to build the program up again, because of Ash.

Again, Ash started good, ended terribly.



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Re: MSU’s next head coach

Post by bobcat99 » Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:50 am

onceacat wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:29 pm
coloradocat wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:18 pm
AFCAT wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:15 pm
catfisherman wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:06 pm
AFCAT wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:55 pm
Ash 2-7, Choate 4-0
I am glad Choate and the cats are 4-0 but compare the grizzlies teams from Ash’s era vs the Choate era and Choate had easier teams. Not knocking Choate at all just want to see more from him in the future to say he has done more than Ash’s teams who won conference championships.
While it is true that um hasn't had dominating teams recently, Choate coached teams did keep um from reaching the playoffs three straight years, beat the number 3 ranked griz in the fourth year, and kept them from claiming a Big Sky title. I'm looking forward to watching future Choate coached teams win championships. Choate teams have already gone deeper in the playoffs than all those Ash coached teams.
As I said in another post: how many of the last four Cat-griz games would Ash have won? Also, who cares if you win a conference championship as long as you make the playoffs (it would be nice but ultimately isn't that big of a deal). In 9 seasons Ash won 2 playoff games. Choate has won 3 in four seasons.
Ash also got byes because he won conference championships. I don't think its really fair to count a win against a really bad 6-5 UIW team in the play in round as equivalent to losing to the eventual finalist.

Again, it shouldn't be a knock on Choate, but you shouldn't get participation points for beating up on the little sisters of the poor either.

I think several posters have put it well: Choate has built the most well rounded, most complete program to the eye test. But I think a lot of us would like to see 2 things: 1) proof that we can beat Top 10 teams that aren't the Griz 2) At least hang with NDSU.

One other thing that sort of gets in my craw: I'm really sick and tired of hearing that Denarius McGhee, Cody Kirk, Trey Robinson, Zach Minter, Mike Person, Alex Singleton, Jody Owens and so on lack toughness, character, and grit because they were coached because they were coached by Ash.

Thats a load of BS.
Those individuals were great. Tough players that anybody would’ve taken. But as a team, they just weren’t. Hell, Ash didn’t even have his teams doing conditioning! Ask Colter Nuanez! By the end of his tenure with Cramsey, they figured that practicing the offense was enough running.



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Re: MSU’s next head coach

Post by gtapp » Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:52 am

I loved Ash but another way to look at this is after having won a couple of conference titles and being ranked number one in the nation on I think a couple of occasions Ash never received an offer to move up in the coaching ranks (at least that we know of). Choate's highest finish is third and he is a finalist for a good FBS job. There is something to said about that.


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Re: MSU’s next head coach

Post by onceacat » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:09 am

gtapp wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:52 am
I loved Ash but another way to look at this is after having won a couple of conference titles and being ranked number one in the nation on I think a couple of occasions Ash never received an offer to move up in the coaching ranks (at least that we know of). Choate's highest finish is third and he is a finalist for a good FBS job. There is something to said about that.
I think that’s 100% fair...although conditioned a little. Choate is being considered for a job in his old coaching tree where he has deep roots, both with abSU & Chris Petersen. He’s not really being considered solely on the basis of his MSU performance.

Hey, if I was picking one of the two, I would 100% go with Choate, because we know how Ash plateaued & Choate still has upside. I just don’t like the way that posters are trashing a very successful coach & questioning the toughness and character of some of the greatest BobcaTA in history.



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Re: MSU’s next head coach

Post by iaafan » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:57 am

gtapp wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:52 am
I loved Ash but another way to look at this is after having won a couple of conference titles and being ranked number one in the nation on I think a couple of occasions Ash never received an offer to move up in the coaching ranks (at least that we know of). Choate's highest finish is third and he is a finalist for a good FBS job. There is something to said about that.
I think Ash was too old in the eyes of FBS programs to be considered. He also didn't have the ties Choate has at BSU.



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Re: MSU’s next head coach

Post by iaafan » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:08 am

kennethnoisewater wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:48 pm
onceacat wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:34 pm
kennethnoisewater wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:34 pm
catfisherman wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:41 pm
I like Choate but what in his record besides beating Missoula 4 years in a row has shown us he is better than Ash? The 2010-2012 Ash teams were pretty good
If Ash had left in 2013 or so, he might be remembered more fondly. He won very few games his team wasn't favored in. That's great that the Bobcats were heavily favored, and he deserves credit for that, but at some point you have to upset somebody. His last couple years, the culture was not good. He had a good run and I'm thankful for the contributions he made to the program, but you can't dismiss the fact that Choate won some playoff games AND beat the Griz all four years. To me, that makes him very clearly a better coach than Ash. That's like saying "take away all those championships and MVP's and Michael Jordan really wasn't all that great of a player". That's literally what made him great. The fact that Choate won the big games Ash couldn't makes him unquestionably better IMO.
I agree 100% about the Griz games. What games other than that were the Cats underdogs? I don’t remember the odds off the top of my head, but the Cats were probably 7 point favorites against UIW, Albany, and APSU. Those 3 teams had a combined record of 26-14. Albany was ranked #25 coming into the game, APSU was ranked 18 going into the playoffs.

I don’t mean that as a knock...just an observation.

Are there any Choate era wins over a Top 10 team? (Honest question,I’m not sure) anyone not UM, that is?

I’m 100% in on Choate for all the reasons you listed, but I’m waiting for the sort of big upset before I’m willing to say his on field performance is better than Ash. Or a competitive game with NDSU or JMU.
I don't have specifics off the top of my head, but I can't think of all that many big games that Ash won. EWU in Cheney in what, 2011? That was a big one. But they squeaked by URI in the playoffs thanks to a missed kick and didn't look great against anybody else in the playoffs. It just seemed like his teams were worse in November and December. I will admit Choate's progress has been a little slow (mostly due to the lack of a great QB the first few years), and that his record against UM makes that look better, but give me Choate any day. Plus I think the OP is cherry picking a great three year run, and that's not a very accurate representation of Ash's tenure. If he'd have kept that going for another few years, he'd still be in Bozeman. But it has to reflect on him that he couldn't maintain that. And I really like Ash, I just like Choate that much more.
Ash's teams started out well against good competition. Beat EWU in 2010 by a lot and EWU went on to win national championship. Beat EWU again in 2011. Damn near beat Wash. State in 2010 gave Utah a decent game in 2011 and nearly beat SMU in 2013. I guess one area Ash did better is vs. FBS teams, in that they almost won if that counts for anything. Choate's teams have been smoked both times. Wazzu 31-0 and TT 45-10.

I think Ash was just satisfied with what he had done at MSU after his first three years, which was one of the best runs in program history. I give McGhee a lot of credit for that. He was one tough SOB and a great leader, organizer of men.



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Re: MSU’s next head coach

Post by bobcat99 » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:19 am

onceacat wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:09 am
gtapp wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:52 am
I loved Ash but another way to look at this is after having won a couple of conference titles and being ranked number one in the nation on I think a couple of occasions Ash never received an offer to move up in the coaching ranks (at least that we know of). Choate's highest finish is third and he is a finalist for a good FBS job. There is something to said about that.
I think that’s 100% fair...although conditioned a little. Choate is being considered for a job in his old coaching tree where he has deep roots, both with abSU & Chris Petersen. He’s not really being considered solely on the basis of his MSU performance.

Hey, if I was picking one of the two, I would 100% go with Choate, because we know how Ash plateaued & Choate still has upside. I just don’t like the way that posters are trashing a very successful coach & questioning the toughness and character of some of the greatest BobcaTA in history.
Ash has earned his criticism. Between how he let the program degrade, his more than questionable hiring(s) of his son, and a few more issues, there’s a lot there.

Nobody is questioning the toughness and character of the players you’re suggesting. Saying the team wasn’t tough /=/ certain players weren’t tough.



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Re: MSU’s next head coach

Post by vike_king » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:41 am

MSU01 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:34 am
vike_king wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:53 pm
Kane
There are a lot of parallels between Kane and Danny Sprinkle, who appears to have been a slam-dunk of a hire for the men's basketball program and was clearly ready to step up from assistant to head coach at the time he was hired. I expect and hope that a national search would take place if Coach Choate does leave, but it makes so much sense to maintain continuity in the program at this time by promoting from within, and Kane to me is the clear choice if that's the direction they go in.

My apologies for derailing this thread from the 247th rehashing of Rob Ash's career at MSU.
No apologies needed, I was trying to get this thread back on track too. (love the sarcasm by the way)


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Re: MSU’s next head coach

Post by CelticCat » Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:16 am

bobcat99 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:19 am
onceacat wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:09 am
gtapp wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:52 am
I loved Ash but another way to look at this is after having won a couple of conference titles and being ranked number one in the nation on I think a couple of occasions Ash never received an offer to move up in the coaching ranks (at least that we know of). Choate's highest finish is third and he is a finalist for a good FBS job. There is something to said about that.
I think that’s 100% fair...although conditioned a little. Choate is being considered for a job in his old coaching tree where he has deep roots, both with abSU & Chris Petersen. He’s not really being considered solely on the basis of his MSU performance.

Hey, if I was picking one of the two, I would 100% go with Choate, because we know how Ash plateaued & Choate still has upside. I just don’t like the way that posters are trashing a very successful coach & questioning the toughness and character of some of the greatest BobcaTA in history.
Ash has earned his criticism. Between how he let the program degrade, his more than questionable hiring(s) of his son, and a few more issues, there’s a lot there.

Nobody is questioning the toughness and character of the players you’re suggesting. Saying the team wasn’t tough /=/ certain players weren’t tough.
What you're not saying is that yes the culture did degrade, but it degraded from highs that none of us had seen since the 84. Also the program was much MUCH worse shape when Ash took over than when Choate did (mean Ash left it better than when he took over). We had a pretty awful team in 2015 and the culture was in the gutter, but we also built the endzone seating and turf during his time. It's a fair criticism to say how it ended, but you need to acknowledge just how good things were before that IMO.

Ash's biggest strength was hiring assistance coaches. How many assistant coaches left for better jobs during Ash's return? It was quite a bit.


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Re: MSU’s next head coach

Post by kennethnoisewater » Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:27 am

CelticCat wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:16 am
bobcat99 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:19 am
onceacat wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:09 am
gtapp wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:52 am
I loved Ash but another way to look at this is after having won a couple of conference titles and being ranked number one in the nation on I think a couple of occasions Ash never received an offer to move up in the coaching ranks (at least that we know of). Choate's highest finish is third and he is a finalist for a good FBS job. There is something to said about that.
I think that’s 100% fair...although conditioned a little. Choate is being considered for a job in his old coaching tree where he has deep roots, both with abSU & Chris Petersen. He’s not really being considered solely on the basis of his MSU performance.

Hey, if I was picking one of the two, I would 100% go with Choate, because we know how Ash plateaued & Choate still has upside. I just don’t like the way that posters are trashing a very successful coach & questioning the toughness and character of some of the greatest BobcaTA in history.
Ash has earned his criticism. Between how he let the program degrade, his more than questionable hiring(s) of his son, and a few more issues, there’s a lot there.

Nobody is questioning the toughness and character of the players you’re suggesting. Saying the team wasn’t tough /=/ certain players weren’t tough.
What you're not saying is that yes the culture did degrade, but it degraded from highs that none of us had seen since the 84. Also the program was much MUCH worse shape when Ash took over than when Choate did (mean Ash left it better than when he took over). We had a pretty awful team in 2015 and the culture was in the gutter, but we also built the endzone seating and turf during his time. It's a fair criticism to say how it ended, but you need to acknowledge just how good things were before that IMO.

Ash's biggest strength was hiring assistance coaches. How many assistant coaches left for better jobs during Ash's return? It was quite a bit.
I'd agree with this, at least that it was one of his greatest strengths. But simultaneously it seemed like not being able to get rid of bad assistants was one of his downfalls (most notably Jamie Marshall). Choate has done a good job (maybe too good at times) of getting rid of guys that weren't pulling their weight, even if he was tight with them.


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Re: MSU’s next head coach

Post by coloradocat » Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:27 am

CelticCat wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:16 am
bobcat99 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:19 am
onceacat wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:09 am
gtapp wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:52 am
I loved Ash but another way to look at this is after having won a couple of conference titles and being ranked number one in the nation on I think a couple of occasions Ash never received an offer to move up in the coaching ranks (at least that we know of). Choate's highest finish is third and he is a finalist for a good FBS job. There is something to said about that.
I think that’s 100% fair...although conditioned a little. Choate is being considered for a job in his old coaching tree where he has deep roots, both with abSU & Chris Petersen. He’s not really being considered solely on the basis of his MSU performance.

Hey, if I was picking one of the two, I would 100% go with Choate, because we know how Ash plateaued & Choate still has upside. I just don’t like the way that posters are trashing a very successful coach & questioning the toughness and character of some of the greatest BobcaTA in history.
Ash has earned his criticism. Between how he let the program degrade, his more than questionable hiring(s) of his son, and a few more issues, there’s a lot there.

Nobody is questioning the toughness and character of the players you’re suggesting. Saying the team wasn’t tough /=/ certain players weren’t tough.
What you're not saying is that yes the culture did degrade, but it degraded from highs that none of us had seen since the 84. Also the program was much MUCH worse shape when Ash took over than when Choate did (mean Ash left it better than when he took over). We had a pretty awful team in 2015 and the culture was in the gutter, but we also built the endzone seating and turf during his time. It's a fair criticism to say how it ended, but you need to acknowledge just how good things were before that IMO.

Ash's biggest strength was hiring assistance coaches. How many assistant coaches left for better jobs during Ash's return? It was quite a bit.
It would be nice to have a coaching change where the outgoing coach doesn't leave the program in some degree of disarray.

Timing is probably the only reason not to compare Choate and Ash just yet (unless Choate leaves this weekend). At the comparable point in Ash's tenure he was just hitting his peak and nobody thought things would sink as low as they did. I feel like Choate is different and that if we somehow got him to stick around for another 4-5 years he wouldn't let the program fall apart, but you never know. The biggest reason most of us are so hard on Ash is due to his last couple years and his general lack of enthusiasm (especially when it came to Cat-griz). When you contrast that with Choate's personality and Cat-griz success it's very understandable that every coaching thread becomes an Ash hate-fest.


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Re: MSU’s next head coach

Post by coloradocat » Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:47 am

How about these MWVC coordinators as candidates:

Jason Eck - SDSU OC/OL (MSU ties)
David Braun - NDSU DC
Jeremiah Johnson - UNI DC

I know we have Kane already as a top candidate for HC but these two guys look good.


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Re: MSU’s next head coach

Post by bobcat99 » Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:58 am

CelticCat wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:16 am
bobcat99 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:19 am
onceacat wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:09 am
gtapp wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:52 am
I loved Ash but another way to look at this is after having won a couple of conference titles and being ranked number one in the nation on I think a couple of occasions Ash never received an offer to move up in the coaching ranks (at least that we know of). Choate's highest finish is third and he is a finalist for a good FBS job. There is something to said about that.
I think that’s 100% fair...although conditioned a little. Choate is being considered for a job in his old coaching tree where he has deep roots, both with abSU & Chris Petersen. He’s not really being considered solely on the basis of his MSU performance.

Hey, if I was picking one of the two, I would 100% go with Choate, because we know how Ash plateaued & Choate still has upside. I just don’t like the way that posters are trashing a very successful coach & questioning the toughness and character of some of the greatest BobcaTA in history.
Ash has earned his criticism. Between how he let the program degrade, his more than questionable hiring(s) of his son, and a few more issues, there’s a lot there.

Nobody is questioning the toughness and character of the players you’re suggesting. Saying the team wasn’t tough /=/ certain players weren’t tough.
What you're not saying is that yes the culture did degrade, but it degraded from highs that none of us had seen since the 84. Also the program was much MUCH worse shape when Ash took over than when Choate did (mean Ash left it better than when he took over). We had a pretty awful team in 2015 and the culture was in the gutter, but we also built the endzone seating and turf during his time. It's a fair criticism to say how it ended, but you need to acknowledge just how good things were before that IMO.

Ash's biggest strength was hiring assistance coaches. How many assistant coaches left for better jobs during Ash's return? It was quite a bit.
Ash had good moments, but good coaches don’t leave a program in the condition that he did. I’m not positive he left it in a better place...that could be a interesting discussion for another thread.



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Re: MSU’s next head coach

Post by cats2506 » Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:29 pm

bobcat99 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:58 am
CelticCat wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:16 am
bobcat99 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:19 am
onceacat wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:09 am
gtapp wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:52 am
I loved Ash but another way to look at this is after having won a couple of conference titles and being ranked number one in the nation on I think a couple of occasions Ash never received an offer to move up in the coaching ranks (at least that we know of). Choate's highest finish is third and he is a finalist for a good FBS job. There is something to said about that.
I think that’s 100% fair...although conditioned a little. Choate is being considered for a job in his old coaching tree where he has deep roots, both with abSU & Chris Petersen. He’s not really being considered solely on the basis of his MSU performance.

Hey, if I was picking one of the two, I would 100% go with Choate, because we know how Ash plateaued & Choate still has upside. I just don’t like the way that posters are trashing a very successful coach & questioning the toughness and character of some of the greatest BobcaTA in history.
Ash has earned his criticism. Between how he let the program degrade, his more than questionable hiring(s) of his son, and a few more issues, there’s a lot there.

Nobody is questioning the toughness and character of the players you’re suggesting. Saying the team wasn’t tough /=/ certain players weren’t tough.
What you're not saying is that yes the culture did degrade, but it degraded from highs that none of us had seen since the 84. Also the program was much MUCH worse shape when Ash took over than when Choate did (mean Ash left it better than when he took over). We had a pretty awful team in 2015 and the culture was in the gutter, but we also built the endzone seating and turf during his time. It's a fair criticism to say how it ended, but you need to acknowledge just how good things were before that IMO.

Ash's biggest strength was hiring assistance coaches. How many assistant coaches left for better jobs during Ash's return? It was quite a bit.
Ash had good moments, but good coaches don’t leave a program in the condition that he did. I’m not positive he left it in a better place...that could be a interesting discussion for another thread.
Ash got a program that had gone to the quarterfinals the year before, it had academic and cultural problems. He left a program that was 6-5, was sound academically but had a different type of cultural problem. In that respect I call it a wash.

I don't think there was as much talent on the team that Ash left as there was on the one he received. So looking at it that way I think the program went downhill under Ash.


PlayerRep wrote:The point is not the record of the teams UM beat, it's the quality and record of the teams UM almost beat.

AFCAT
BobcatNation Hall of Famer
Posts: 3438
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:25 pm

Re: MSU’s next head coach

Post by AFCAT » Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:34 pm

cats2506 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:29 pm
bobcat99 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:58 am
CelticCat wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:16 am
bobcat99 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:19 am
onceacat wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:09 am
gtapp wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:52 am
I loved Ash but another way to look at this is after having won a couple of conference titles and being ranked number one in the nation on I think a couple of occasions Ash never received an offer to move up in the coaching ranks (at least that we know of). Choate's highest finish is third and he is a finalist for a good FBS job. There is something to said about that.
I think that’s 100% fair...although conditioned a little. Choate is being considered for a job in his old coaching tree where he has deep roots, both with abSU & Chris Petersen. He’s not really being considered solely on the basis of his MSU performance.

Hey, if I was picking one of the two, I would 100% go with Choate, because we know how Ash plateaued & Choate still has upside. I just don’t like the way that posters are trashing a very successful coach & questioning the toughness and character of some of the greatest BobcaTA in history.
Ash has earned his criticism. Between how he let the program degrade, his more than questionable hiring(s) of his son, and a few more issues, there’s a lot there.

Nobody is questioning the toughness and character of the players you’re suggesting. Saying the team wasn’t tough /=/ certain players weren’t tough.
What you're not saying is that yes the culture did degrade, but it degraded from highs that none of us had seen since the 84. Also the program was much MUCH worse shape when Ash took over than when Choate did (mean Ash left it better than when he took over). We had a pretty awful team in 2015 and the culture was in the gutter, but we also built the endzone seating and turf during his time. It's a fair criticism to say how it ended, but you need to acknowledge just how good things were before that IMO.

Ash's biggest strength was hiring assistance coaches. How many assistant coaches left for better jobs during Ash's return? It was quite a bit.
Ash had good moments, but good coaches don’t leave a program in the condition that he did. I’m not positive he left it in a better place...that could be a interesting discussion for another thread.
Ash got a program that had gone to the quarterfinals the year before, it had academic and cultural problems. He left a program that was 6-5, was sound academically but had a different type of cultural problem. In that respect I call it a wash.

I don't think there was as much talent on the team that Ash left as there was on the one he received. So looking at it that way I think the program went downhill under Ash.
Minor correction. Ash was 5-6 his final year.


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cats2506
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Re: MSU’s next head coach

Post by cats2506 » Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:35 pm

AFCAT wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:34 pm
cats2506 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:29 pm
bobcat99 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:58 am
CelticCat wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:16 am
bobcat99 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:19 am
onceacat wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:09 am
gtapp wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:52 am
I loved Ash but another way to look at this is after having won a couple of conference titles and being ranked number one in the nation on I think a couple of occasions Ash never received an offer to move up in the coaching ranks (at least that we know of). Choate's highest finish is third and he is a finalist for a good FBS job. There is something to said about that.
I think that’s 100% fair...although conditioned a little. Choate is being considered for a job in his old coaching tree where he has deep roots, both with abSU & Chris Petersen. He’s not really being considered solely on the basis of his MSU performance.

Hey, if I was picking one of the two, I would 100% go with Choate, because we know how Ash plateaued & Choate still has upside. I just don’t like the way that posters are trashing a very successful coach & questioning the toughness and character of some of the greatest BobcaTA in history.
Ash has earned his criticism. Between how he let the program degrade, his more than questionable hiring(s) of his son, and a few more issues, there’s a lot there.

Nobody is questioning the toughness and character of the players you’re suggesting. Saying the team wasn’t tough /=/ certain players weren’t tough.
What you're not saying is that yes the culture did degrade, but it degraded from highs that none of us had seen since the 84. Also the program was much MUCH worse shape when Ash took over than when Choate did (mean Ash left it better than when he took over). We had a pretty awful team in 2015 and the culture was in the gutter, but we also built the endzone seating and turf during his time. It's a fair criticism to say how it ended, but you need to acknowledge just how good things were before that IMO.

Ash's biggest strength was hiring assistance coaches. How many assistant coaches left for better jobs during Ash's return? It was quite a bit.
Ash had good moments, but good coaches don’t leave a program in the condition that he did. I’m not positive he left it in a better place...that could be a interesting discussion for another thread.
Ash got a program that had gone to the quarterfinals the year before, it had academic and cultural problems. He left a program that was 6-5, was sound academically but had a different type of cultural problem. In that respect I call it a wash.

I don't think there was as much talent on the team that Ash left as there was on the one he received. So looking at it that way I think the program went downhill under Ash.
Minor correction. Ash was 5-6 his final year.
I knew that, just a little dyslexic today I guess


PlayerRep wrote:The point is not the record of the teams UM beat, it's the quality and record of the teams UM almost beat.

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