Re: MSU’s next head coach
Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:06 pm
Ash started out very good, and very strong, and then damn near drug the program into the depths of mediocrity again.
I am glad Choate and the cats are 4-0 but compare the grizzlies teams from Ash’s era vs the Choate era and Choate had easier teams. Not knocking Choate at all just want to see more from him in the future to say he has done more than Ash’s teams who won conference championships.
That is the fundamental difference between them. How many of the last four Cat-Griz games does anyone really think Ash would have won.catfisherman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:41 pmI like Choate but what in his record besides beating Missoula 4 years in a row has shown us he is better than Ash? The 2010-2012 Ash teams were pretty good
While it is true that um hasn't had dominating teams recently, Choate coached teams did keep um from reaching the playoffs three straight years, beat the number 3 ranked griz in the fourth year, and kept them from claiming a Big Sky title. I'm looking forward to watching future Choate coached teams win championships. Choate teams have already gone deeper in the playoffs than all those Ash coached teams. Oh, and it it wasn't for one missed block against ND last season, the Cats would have won the Big Sky.catfisherman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:06 pmI am glad Choate and the cats are 4-0 but compare the grizzlies teams from Ash’s era vs the Choate era and Choate had easier teams. Not knocking Choate at all just want to see more from him in the future to say he has done more than Ash’s teams who won conference championships.
As I said in another post: how many of the last four Cat-griz games would Ash have won? Also, who cares if you win a conference championship as long as you make the playoffs (it would be nice but ultimately isn't that big of a deal). In 9 seasons Ash won 2 playoff games. Choate has won 3 in four seasons.AFCAT wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:15 pmWhile it is true that um hasn't had dominating teams recently, Choate coached teams did keep um from reaching the playoffs three straight years, beat the number 3 ranked griz in the fourth year, and kept them from claiming a Big Sky title. I'm looking forward to watching future Choate coached teams win championships. Choate teams have already gone deeper in the playoffs than all those Ash coached teams.catfisherman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:06 pmI am glad Choate and the cats are 4-0 but compare the grizzlies teams from Ash’s era vs the Choate era and Choate had easier teams. Not knocking Choate at all just want to see more from him in the future to say he has done more than Ash’s teams who won conference championships.
I just want to make my point that I’m not advocating for having a coach just like Ash again if Choate leaves but I am trying to respond to a previous post that said that each coach has been better than the last one they replaced. I personally don’t think what Choate has done in his 4 years has been better than what Ash accomplished in the early 2010’s, although last year’s Cat/griz blowout game puts him close.coloradocat wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:13 pmThat is the fundamental difference between them. How many of the last four Cat-Griz games does anyone really think Ash would have won.catfisherman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:41 pmI like Choate but what in his record besides beating Missoula 4 years in a row has shown us he is better than Ash? The 2010-2012 Ash teams were pretty good
Choate also understands the importance of balance. There were some fun years under Ash but his philosophy got out of hand at the end. There were FIVE games in his last two years where we scored 40+ and lost. That destroys team cohesion and culture which led to his (and the team's) downfall.
You quoted this before I edited/added the last part of my comment. The Cats were one missed block against UND from winning the Big Sky last season.coloradocat wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:18 pmAs I said in another post: how many of the last four Cat-griz games would Ash have won? Also, who cares if you win a conference championship as long as you make the playoffs (it would be nice but ultimately isn't that big of a deal). In 9 seasons Ash won 2 playoff games. Choate has won 3 in four seasons.AFCAT wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:15 pmWhile it is true that um hasn't had dominating teams recently, Choate coached teams did keep um from reaching the playoffs three straight years, beat the number 3 ranked griz in the fourth year, and kept them from claiming a Big Sky title. I'm looking forward to watching future Choate coached teams win championships. Choate teams have already gone deeper in the playoffs than all those Ash coached teams.catfisherman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:06 pmI am glad Choate and the cats are 4-0 but compare the grizzlies teams from Ash’s era vs the Choate era and Choate had easier teams. Not knocking Choate at all just want to see more from him in the future to say he has done more than Ash’s teams who won conference championships.
What makes what he's done not better than Ash? Ash had the number 1 team in the nation one year, then that team got stomped by the Griz. That same team didn't make any type of playoff run. None of his teams made any type of playoff run. Winning conference championships and being top 10 a lot doesn't mean anything if you choke in late November and December. I'd rather go 6-2 in conference play and be in the semis every year than go 8-0, 7-1 and win the conference and exit in the quarters. Plus Choate coaches a team, not an offense and a defense separately.catfisherman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:20 pmI just want to make my point that I’m not advocating for having a coach just like Ash again if Choate leaves but I am trying to respond to a previous post that said that each coach has been better than the last one they replaced. I personally don’t think what Choate has done in his 4 years has been better than what Ash accomplished in the early 2010’s, although last year’s Cat/griz blowout game puts him close.coloradocat wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:13 pmThat is the fundamental difference between them. How many of the last four Cat-Griz games does anyone really think Ash would have won.catfisherman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:41 pmI like Choate but what in his record besides beating Missoula 4 years in a row has shown us he is better than Ash? The 2010-2012 Ash teams were pretty good
Choate also understands the importance of balance. There were some fun years under Ash but his philosophy got out of hand at the end. There were FIVE games in his last two years where we scored 40+ and lost. That destroys team cohesion and culture which led to his (and the team's) downfall.
I disagree, yes the last few years of Ash the defense was terrible but people forget how good the Cats defense was in his early years Minter, Owens, Ogden, etc they had gritBleedingBLue wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:16 pmNot to mention Choate, you know, took the team to the SEMIFINALS! An ash coached team would have lost to AP last year, especially if it was a team in the last 4 years of his tenure. That game took heart, guts, and a whole lot of defensive grit to win. Not something Ash's teams had.
I would too, but I am just saying Choate needs to do it more than once to convince me, I think he can do it but he hasn’t yet. I just want more to judge him by.BleedingBLue wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:29 pmWhat makes what he's done not better than Ash? Ash had the number 1 team in the nation one year, then that team got stomped by the Griz. That same team didn't make any type of playoff run. None of his teams made any type of playoff run. Winning conference championships and being top 10 a lot doesn't mean anything if you choke in late November and December. I'd rather go 6-2 in conference play and be in the semis every year than go 8-0, 7-1 and win the conference and exit in the quarters. Plus Choate coaches a team, not an offense and a defense separately.catfisherman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:20 pmI just want to make my point that I’m not advocating for having a coach just like Ash again if Choate leaves but I am trying to respond to a previous post that said that each coach has been better than the last one they replaced. I personally don’t think what Choate has done in his 4 years has been better than what Ash accomplished in the early 2010’s, although last year’s Cat/griz blowout game puts him close.coloradocat wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:13 pmThat is the fundamental difference between them. How many of the last four Cat-Griz games does anyone really think Ash would have won.catfisherman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:41 pmI like Choate but what in his record besides beating Missoula 4 years in a row has shown us he is better than Ash? The 2010-2012 Ash teams were pretty good
Choate also understands the importance of balance. There were some fun years under Ash but his philosophy got out of hand at the end. There were FIVE games in his last two years where we scored 40+ and lost. That destroys team cohesion and culture which led to his (and the team's) downfall.
Ash teams weren’t tough and that’s all on him. They played how they were coached. They gave up and threw in the towel quite regularly his last couple years at the helm. They were flashy but lacked the toughness that’s needed to be successful as the season wears on.catfisherman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:36 pmI would too, but I am just saying Choate needs to do it more than once to convince me, I think he can do it but he hasn’t yet. I just want more to judge him by.BleedingBLue wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:29 pmWhat makes what he's done not better than Ash? Ash had the number 1 team in the nation one year, then that team got stomped by the Griz. That same team didn't make any type of playoff run. None of his teams made any type of playoff run. Winning conference championships and being top 10 a lot doesn't mean anything if you choke in late November and December. I'd rather go 6-2 in conference play and be in the semis every year than go 8-0, 7-1 and win the conference and exit in the quarters. Plus Choate coaches a team, not an offense and a defense separately.catfisherman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:20 pmI just want to make my point that I’m not advocating for having a coach just like Ash again if Choate leaves but I am trying to respond to a previous post that said that each coach has been better than the last one they replaced. I personally don’t think what Choate has done in his 4 years has been better than what Ash accomplished in the early 2010’s, although last year’s Cat/griz blowout game puts him close.coloradocat wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:13 pmThat is the fundamental difference between them. How many of the last four Cat-Griz games does anyone really think Ash would have won.catfisherman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:41 pmI like Choate but what in his record besides beating Missoula 4 years in a row has shown us he is better than Ash? The 2010-2012 Ash teams were pretty good
Choate also understands the importance of balance. There were some fun years under Ash but his philosophy got out of hand at the end. There were FIVE games in his last two years where we scored 40+ and lost. That destroys team cohesion and culture which led to his (and the team's) downfall.
Ash also got byes because he won conference championships. I don't think its really fair to count a win against a really bad 6-5 UIW team in the play in round as equivalent to losing to the eventual finalist.coloradocat wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:18 pmAs I said in another post: how many of the last four Cat-griz games would Ash have won? Also, who cares if you win a conference championship as long as you make the playoffs (it would be nice but ultimately isn't that big of a deal). In 9 seasons Ash won 2 playoff games. Choate has won 3 in four seasons.AFCAT wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:15 pmWhile it is true that um hasn't had dominating teams recently, Choate coached teams did keep um from reaching the playoffs three straight years, beat the number 3 ranked griz in the fourth year, and kept them from claiming a Big Sky title. I'm looking forward to watching future Choate coached teams win championships. Choate teams have already gone deeper in the playoffs than all those Ash coached teams.catfisherman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:06 pmI am glad Choate and the cats are 4-0 but compare the grizzlies teams from Ash’s era vs the Choate era and Choate had easier teams. Not knocking Choate at all just want to see more from him in the future to say he has done more than Ash’s teams who won conference championships.
I'm kind of scratching my head here. Didn't we get a bye last year? And beat 2 teams that were not little sisters of the poor? 2, in 1 playoff. We beat AP in the quarters, therefore top 8 team. And I remember a lot of posters being super worried about their QB going into that game. Sac State couldn't do anything against him. We shut him down.onceacat wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:29 pmAsh also got byes because he won conference championships. I don't think its really fair to count a win against a really bad 6-5 UIW team in the play in round as equivalent to losing to the eventual finalist.coloradocat wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:18 pmAs I said in another post: how many of the last four Cat-griz games would Ash have won? Also, who cares if you win a conference championship as long as you make the playoffs (it would be nice but ultimately isn't that big of a deal). In 9 seasons Ash won 2 playoff games. Choate has won 3 in four seasons.AFCAT wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:15 pmWhile it is true that um hasn't had dominating teams recently, Choate coached teams did keep um from reaching the playoffs three straight years, beat the number 3 ranked griz in the fourth year, and kept them from claiming a Big Sky title. I'm looking forward to watching future Choate coached teams win championships. Choate teams have already gone deeper in the playoffs than all those Ash coached teams.catfisherman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:06 pmI am glad Choate and the cats are 4-0 but compare the grizzlies teams from Ash’s era vs the Choate era and Choate had easier teams. Not knocking Choate at all just want to see more from him in the future to say he has done more than Ash’s teams who won conference championships.
Again, it shouldn't be a knock on Choate, but you shouldn't get participation points for beating up on the little sisters of the poor either.
I think several posters have put it well: Choate has built the most well rounded, most complete program to the eye test. But I think a lot of us would like to see 2 things: 1) proof that we can beat Top 10 teams that aren't the Griz 2) At least hang with NDSU.
One other thing that sort of gets in my craw: I'm really sick and tired of hearing that Denarius McGhee, Cody Kirk, Trey Robinson, Zach Minter, Mike Person, Alex Singleton, Jody Owens and so on lack toughness, character, and grit because they were coached because they were coached by Ash.
Thats a load of BS.
We also pummeled SEMO. I don’t think they were top 8 at the time but they did have a better ranking than us if I recall correctly. And of course the chicken littles invoked the never-beat-a-ranked-team-who’s-not-the-griz canard.BleedingBLue wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:52 pmI'm kind of scratching my head here. Didn't we get a bye last year? And beat 2 teams that were not little sisters of the poor? 2, in 1 playoff. We beat AP in the quarters, therefore top 8 team. And I remember a lot of posters being super worried about their QB going into that game. Sac State couldn't do anything against him. We shut him down.onceacat wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:29 pmAsh also got byes because he won conference championships. I don't think its really fair to count a win against a really bad 6-5 UIW team in the play in round as equivalent to losing to the eventual finalist.coloradocat wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:18 pmAs I said in another post: how many of the last four Cat-griz games would Ash have won? Also, who cares if you win a conference championship as long as you make the playoffs (it would be nice but ultimately isn't that big of a deal). In 9 seasons Ash won 2 playoff games. Choate has won 3 in four seasons.AFCAT wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:15 pmWhile it is true that um hasn't had dominating teams recently, Choate coached teams did keep um from reaching the playoffs three straight years, beat the number 3 ranked griz in the fourth year, and kept them from claiming a Big Sky title. I'm looking forward to watching future Choate coached teams win championships. Choate teams have already gone deeper in the playoffs than all those Ash coached teams.catfisherman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:06 pmI am glad Choate and the cats are 4-0 but compare the grizzlies teams from Ash’s era vs the Choate era and Choate had easier teams. Not knocking Choate at all just want to see more from him in the future to say he has done more than Ash’s teams who won conference championships.
Again, it shouldn't be a knock on Choate, but you shouldn't get participation points for beating up on the little sisters of the poor either.
I think several posters have put it well: Choate has built the most well rounded, most complete program to the eye test. But I think a lot of us would like to see 2 things: 1) proof that we can beat Top 10 teams that aren't the Griz 2) At least hang with NDSU.
One other thing that sort of gets in my craw: I'm really sick and tired of hearing that Denarius McGhee, Cody Kirk, Trey Robinson, Zach Minter, Mike Person, Alex Singleton, Jody Owens and so on lack toughness, character, and grit because they were coached because they were coached by Ash.
Thats a load of BS.
Also when I mentioned grit and toughness I wasn't saying nobody on those teams were tough. The guys you mentioned, absolutely tough as nails and full of grit. Choate has had a team of those guys for 4 years. A whole team. Every guy on D, every guy on O. That never happened with Ash.
Yes, we got a bye last year. And Ash got 3 byes. So Ash is 2-3 in "real" playoff games and Choate is 1-2. (Although Ash did lose that SDSU play-in game).BleedingBLue wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:52 pmI'm kind of scratching my head here. Didn't we get a bye last year? And beat 2 teams that were not little sisters of the poor? 2, in 1 playoff. We beat AP in the quarters, therefore top 8 team. And I remember a lot of posters being super worried about their QB going into that game. Sac State couldn't do anything against him. We shut him down.onceacat wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:29 pmAsh also got byes because he won conference championships. I don't think its really fair to count a win against a really bad 6-5 UIW team in the play in round as equivalent to losing to the eventual finalist.coloradocat wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:18 pmAs I said in another post: how many of the last four Cat-griz games would Ash have won? Also, who cares if you win a conference championship as long as you make the playoffs (it would be nice but ultimately isn't that big of a deal). In 9 seasons Ash won 2 playoff games. Choate has won 3 in four seasons.AFCAT wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:15 pmWhile it is true that um hasn't had dominating teams recently, Choate coached teams did keep um from reaching the playoffs three straight years, beat the number 3 ranked griz in the fourth year, and kept them from claiming a Big Sky title. I'm looking forward to watching future Choate coached teams win championships. Choate teams have already gone deeper in the playoffs than all those Ash coached teams.catfisherman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:06 pmI am glad Choate and the cats are 4-0 but compare the grizzlies teams from Ash’s era vs the Choate era and Choate had easier teams. Not knocking Choate at all just want to see more from him in the future to say he has done more than Ash’s teams who won conference championships.
Again, it shouldn't be a knock on Choate, but you shouldn't get participation points for beating up on the little sisters of the poor either.
I think several posters have put it well: Choate has built the most well rounded, most complete program to the eye test. But I think a lot of us would like to see 2 things: 1) proof that we can beat Top 10 teams that aren't the Griz 2) At least hang with NDSU.
One other thing that sort of gets in my craw: I'm really sick and tired of hearing that Denarius McGhee, Cody Kirk, Trey Robinson, Zach Minter, Mike Person, Alex Singleton, Jody Owens and so on lack toughness, character, and grit because they were coached because they were coached by Ash.
Thats a load of BS.
Also when I mentioned grit and toughness I wasn't saying nobody on those teams were tough. The guys you mentioned, absolutely tough as nails and full of grit. Choate has had a team of those guys for 4 years. A whole team. Every guy on D, every guy on O. That never happened with Ash.
SEMO was #12 at the time.Cledus wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:25 pmWe also pummeled SEMO. I don’t think they were top 8 at the time but they did have a better ranking than us if I recall correctly. And of course the chicken littles invoked the never-beat-a-ranked-team-who’s-not-the-griz canard.BleedingBLue wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:52 pmI'm kind of scratching my head here. Didn't we get a bye last year? And beat 2 teams that were not little sisters of the poor? 2, in 1 playoff. We beat AP in the quarters, therefore top 8 team. And I remember a lot of posters being super worried about their QB going into that game. Sac State couldn't do anything against him. We shut him down.onceacat wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:29 pmAsh also got byes because he won conference championships. I don't think its really fair to count a win against a really bad 6-5 UIW team in the play in round as equivalent to losing to the eventual finalist.coloradocat wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:18 pmAs I said in another post: how many of the last four Cat-griz games would Ash have won? Also, who cares if you win a conference championship as long as you make the playoffs (it would be nice but ultimately isn't that big of a deal). In 9 seasons Ash won 2 playoff games. Choate has won 3 in four seasons.AFCAT wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:15 pmWhile it is true that um hasn't had dominating teams recently, Choate coached teams did keep um from reaching the playoffs three straight years, beat the number 3 ranked griz in the fourth year, and kept them from claiming a Big Sky title. I'm looking forward to watching future Choate coached teams win championships. Choate teams have already gone deeper in the playoffs than all those Ash coached teams.catfisherman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:06 pmI am glad Choate and the cats are 4-0 but compare the grizzlies teams from Ash’s era vs the Choate era and Choate had easier teams. Not knocking Choate at all just want to see more from him in the future to say he has done more than Ash’s teams who won conference championships.
Again, it shouldn't be a knock on Choate, but you shouldn't get participation points for beating up on the little sisters of the poor either.
I think several posters have put it well: Choate has built the most well rounded, most complete program to the eye test. But I think a lot of us would like to see 2 things: 1) proof that we can beat Top 10 teams that aren't the Griz 2) At least hang with NDSU.
One other thing that sort of gets in my craw: I'm really sick and tired of hearing that Denarius McGhee, Cody Kirk, Trey Robinson, Zach Minter, Mike Person, Alex Singleton, Jody Owens and so on lack toughness, character, and grit because they were coached because they were coached by Ash.
Thats a load of BS.
Also when I mentioned grit and toughness I wasn't saying nobody on those teams were tough. The guys you mentioned, absolutely tough as nails and full of grit. Choate has had a team of those guys for 4 years. A whole team. Every guy on D, every guy on O. That never happened with Ash.