MSU’s next head coach

[bobcat99]

Ash started out very good, and very strong, and then damn near drug the program into the depths of mediocrity again.

[catfisherman]

Ash 2-7, Choate 4-0

I am glad Choate and the cats are 4-0 but compare the grizzlies teams from Ash’s era vs the Choate era and Choate had easier teams. Not knocking Choate at all just want to see more from him in the future to say he has done more than Ash’s teams who won conference championships.

[coloradocat]

I like Choate but what in his record besides beating Missoula 4 years in a row has shown us he is better than Ash? The 2010-2012 Ash teams were pretty good

That is the fundamental difference between them. How many of the last four Cat-Griz games does anyone really think Ash would have won.

Choate also understands the importance of balance. There were some fun years under Ash but his philosophy got out of hand at the end. There were FIVE games in his last two years where we scored 40+ and lost. That destroys team cohesion and culture which led to his (and the team's) downfall.

[AFCAT]

Ash 2-7, Choate 4-0

I am glad Choate and the cats are 4-0 but compare the grizzlies teams from Ash’s era vs the Choate era and Choate had easier teams. Not knocking Choate at all just want to see more from him in the future to say he has done more than Ash’s teams who won conference championships.

While it is true that um hasn't had dominating teams recently, Choate coached teams did keep um from reaching the playoffs three straight years, beat the number 3 ranked griz in the fourth year, and kept them from claiming a Big Sky title. I'm looking forward to watching future Choate coached teams win championships. Choate teams have already gone deeper in the playoffs than all those Ash coached teams. Oh, and it it wasn't for one missed block against ND last season, the Cats would have won the Big Sky.

[BleedingBLue]

Not to mention Choate, you know, took the team to the SEMIFINALS! An ash coached team would have lost to AP last year, especially if it was a team in the last 4 years of his tenure. That game took heart, guts, and a whole lot of defensive grit to win. Not something Ash's teams had.

[coloradocat]

Ash 2-7, Choate 4-0

I am glad Choate and the cats are 4-0 but compare the grizzlies teams from Ash’s era vs the Choate era and Choate had easier teams. Not knocking Choate at all just want to see more from him in the future to say he has done more than Ash’s teams who won conference championships.

While it is true that um hasn't had dominating teams recently, Choate coached teams did keep um from reaching the playoffs three straight years, beat the number 3 ranked griz in the fourth year, and kept them from claiming a Big Sky title. I'm looking forward to watching future Choate coached teams win championships. Choate teams have already gone deeper in the playoffs than all those Ash coached teams.

As I said in another post: how many of the last four Cat-griz games would Ash have won? Also, who cares if you win a conference championship as long as you make the playoffs (it would be nice but ultimately isn't that big of a deal). In 9 seasons Ash won 2 playoff games. Choate has won 3 in four seasons.

[catfisherman]

I like Choate but what in his record besides beating Missoula 4 years in a row has shown us he is better than Ash? The 2010-2012 Ash teams were pretty good

That is the fundamental difference between them. How many of the last four Cat-Griz games does anyone really think Ash would have won.

Choate also understands the importance of balance. There were some fun years under Ash but his philosophy got out of hand at the end. There were FIVE games in his last two years where we scored 40+ and lost. That destroys team cohesion and culture which led to his (and the team's) downfall.

I just want to make my point that I’m not advocating for having a coach just like Ash again if Choate leaves but I am trying to respond to a previous post that said that each coach has been better than the last one they replaced. I personally don’t think what Choate has done in his 4 years has been better than what Ash accomplished in the early 2010’s, although last year’s Cat/griz blowout game puts him close.

[AFCAT]

Ash 2-7, Choate 4-0

I am glad Choate and the cats are 4-0 but compare the grizzlies teams from Ash’s era vs the Choate era and Choate had easier teams. Not knocking Choate at all just want to see more from him in the future to say he has done more than Ash’s teams who won conference championships.

While it is true that um hasn't had dominating teams recently, Choate coached teams did keep um from reaching the playoffs three straight years, beat the number 3 ranked griz in the fourth year, and kept them from claiming a Big Sky title. I'm looking forward to watching future Choate coached teams win championships. Choate teams have already gone deeper in the playoffs than all those Ash coached teams.

As I said in another post: how many of the last four Cat-griz games would Ash have won? Also, who cares if you win a conference championship as long as you make the playoffs (it would be nice but ultimately isn't that big of a deal). In 9 seasons Ash won 2 playoff games. Choate has won 3 in four seasons.

You quoted this before I edited/added the last part of my comment. The Cats were one missed block against UND from winning the Big Sky last season.

[BleedingBLue]

I like Choate but what in his record besides beating Missoula 4 years in a row has shown us he is better than Ash? The 2010-2012 Ash teams were pretty good

That is the fundamental difference between them. How many of the last four Cat-Griz games does anyone really think Ash would have won.

Choate also understands the importance of balance. There were some fun years under Ash but his philosophy got out of hand at the end. There were FIVE games in his last two years where we scored 40+ and lost. That destroys team cohesion and culture which led to his (and the team's) downfall.

I just want to make my point that I’m not advocating for having a coach just like Ash again if Choate leaves but I am trying to respond to a previous post that said that each coach has been better than the last one they replaced. I personally don’t think what Choate has done in his 4 years has been better than what Ash accomplished in the early 2010’s, although last year’s Cat/griz blowout game puts him close.

What makes what he's done not better than Ash? Ash had the number 1 team in the nation one year, then that team got stomped by the Griz. That same team didn't make any type of playoff run. None of his teams made any type of playoff run. Winning conference championships and being top 10 a lot doesn't mean anything if you choke in late November and December. I'd rather go 6-2 in conference play and be in the semis every year than go 8-0, 7-1 and win the conference and exit in the quarters. Plus Choate coaches a team, not an offense and a defense separately.

[catfisherman]

Not to mention Choate, you know, took the team to the SEMIFINALS! An ash coached team would have lost to AP last year, especially if it was a team in the last 4 years of his tenure. That game took heart, guts, and a whole lot of defensive grit to win. Not something Ash's teams had.

I disagree, yes the last few years of Ash the defense was terrible but people forget how good the Cats defense was in his early years Minter, Owens, Ogden, etc they had grit

[catfisherman]

I like Choate but what in his record besides beating Missoula 4 years in a row has shown us he is better than Ash? The 2010-2012 Ash teams were pretty good

That is the fundamental difference between them. How many of the last four Cat-Griz games does anyone really think Ash would have won.

Choate also understands the importance of balance. There were some fun years under Ash but his philosophy got out of hand at the end. There were FIVE games in his last two years where we scored 40+ and lost. That destroys team cohesion and culture which led to his (and the team's) downfall.

I just want to make my point that I’m not advocating for having a coach just like Ash again if Choate leaves but I am trying to respond to a previous post that said that each coach has been better than the last one they replaced. I personally don’t think what Choate has done in his 4 years has been better than what Ash accomplished in the early 2010’s, although last year’s Cat/griz blowout game puts him close.

What makes what he's done not better than Ash? Ash had the number 1 team in the nation one year, then that team got stomped by the Griz. That same team didn't make any type of playoff run. None of his teams made any type of playoff run. Winning conference championships and being top 10 a lot doesn't mean anything if you choke in late November and December. I'd rather go 6-2 in conference play and be in the semis every year than go 8-0, 7-1 and win the conference and exit in the quarters. Plus Choate coaches a team, not an offense and a defense separately.

I would too, but I am just saying Choate needs to do it more than once to convince me, I think he can do it but he hasn’t yet. I just want more to judge him by.

[GoldstoneCat]

Look, I'm a big of an Ash guy as there is, and i think he did great things here. Choate has built depth our prior teams never had. I think these most recent teams are more complete than those under ash, but would be hard to argue that ash and his staffs had a better handle/ feel for the quarterback position. That's the hole in choate's resume to me. I still don't know that we're equipped to win the big one at that position, 5 years on. But I'm so impressed and a complete believer in the physical run game and i was a spread guy. This philosophy plays anywhere, in any weather, in any environment. If choate moves on i hope we continue on this path, with improvement at QB.

[Cledus]

I like Choate but what in his record besides beating Missoula 4 years in a row has shown us he is better than Ash? The 2010-2012 Ash teams were pretty good

That is the fundamental difference between them. How many of the last four Cat-Griz games does anyone really think Ash would have won.

Choate also understands the importance of balance. There were some fun years under Ash but his philosophy got out of hand at the end. There were FIVE games in his last two years where we scored 40+ and lost. That destroys team cohesion and culture which led to his (and the team's) downfall.

I just want to make my point that I’m not advocating for having a coach just like Ash again if Choate leaves but I am trying to respond to a previous post that said that each coach has been better than the last one they replaced. I personally don’t think what Choate has done in his 4 years has been better than what Ash accomplished in the early 2010’s, although last year’s Cat/griz blowout game puts him close.

What makes what he's done not better than Ash? Ash had the number 1 team in the nation one year, then that team got stomped by the Griz. That same team didn't make any type of playoff run. None of his teams made any type of playoff run. Winning conference championships and being top 10 a lot doesn't mean anything if you choke in late November and December. I'd rather go 6-2 in conference play and be in the semis every year than go 8-0, 7-1 and win the conference and exit in the quarters. Plus Choate coaches a team, not an offense and a defense separately.

I would too, but I am just saying Choate needs to do it more than once to convince me, I think he can do it but he hasn’t yet. I just want more to judge him by.

Ash teams weren’t tough and that’s all on him. They played how they were coached. They gave up and threw in the towel quite regularly his last couple years at the helm. They were flashy but lacked the toughness that’s needed to be successful as the season wears on.

[onceacat]

Ash 2-7, Choate 4-0

I am glad Choate and the cats are 4-0 but compare the grizzlies teams from Ash’s era vs the Choate era and Choate had easier teams. Not knocking Choate at all just want to see more from him in the future to say he has done more than Ash’s teams who won conference championships.

While it is true that um hasn't had dominating teams recently, Choate coached teams did keep um from reaching the playoffs three straight years, beat the number 3 ranked griz in the fourth year, and kept them from claiming a Big Sky title. I'm looking forward to watching future Choate coached teams win championships. Choate teams have already gone deeper in the playoffs than all those Ash coached teams.

As I said in another post: how many of the last four Cat-griz games would Ash have won? Also, who cares if you win a conference championship as long as you make the playoffs (it would be nice but ultimately isn't that big of a deal). In 9 seasons Ash won 2 playoff games. Choate has won 3 in four seasons.

Ash also got byes because he won conference championships. I don't think its really fair to count a win against a really bad 6-5 UIW team in the play in round as equivalent to losing to the eventual finalist.

Again, it shouldn't be a knock on Choate, but you shouldn't get participation points for beating up on the little sisters of the poor either.

I think several posters have put it well: Choate has built the most well rounded, most complete program to the eye test. But I think a lot of us would like to see 2 things: 1) proof that we can beat Top 10 teams that aren't the Griz 2) At least hang with NDSU.

One other thing that sort of gets in my craw: I'm really sick and tired of hearing that Denarius McGhee, Cody Kirk, Trey Robinson, Zach Minter, Mike Person, Alex Singleton, Jody Owens and so on lack toughness, character, and grit because they were coached because they were coached by Ash.

Thats a load of BS.

[onceacat]

Also, Choate got Bob Stitt fired, for which all of Montana football can be thankful!

[BleedingBLue]

Ash 2-7, Choate 4-0

I am glad Choate and the cats are 4-0 but compare the grizzlies teams from Ash’s era vs the Choate era and Choate had easier teams. Not knocking Choate at all just want to see more from him in the future to say he has done more than Ash’s teams who won conference championships.

While it is true that um hasn't had dominating teams recently, Choate coached teams did keep um from reaching the playoffs three straight years, beat the number 3 ranked griz in the fourth year, and kept them from claiming a Big Sky title. I'm looking forward to watching future Choate coached teams win championships. Choate teams have already gone deeper in the playoffs than all those Ash coached teams.

As I said in another post: how many of the last four Cat-griz games would Ash have won? Also, who cares if you win a conference championship as long as you make the playoffs (it would be nice but ultimately isn't that big of a deal). In 9 seasons Ash won 2 playoff games. Choate has won 3 in four seasons.

Ash also got byes because he won conference championships. I don't think its really fair to count a win against a really bad 6-5 UIW team in the play in round as equivalent to losing to the eventual finalist.

Again, it shouldn't be a knock on Choate, but you shouldn't get participation points for beating up on the little sisters of the poor either.

I think several posters have put it well: Choate has built the most well rounded, most complete program to the eye test. But I think a lot of us would like to see 2 things: 1) proof that we can beat Top 10 teams that aren't the Griz 2) At least hang with NDSU.

One other thing that sort of gets in my craw: I'm really sick and tired of hearing that Denarius McGhee, Cody Kirk, Trey Robinson, Zach Minter, Mike Person, Alex Singleton, Jody Owens and so on lack toughness, character, and grit because they were coached because they were coached by Ash.

Thats a load of BS.

I'm kind of scratching my head here. Didn't we get a bye last year? And beat 2 teams that were not little sisters of the poor? 2, in 1 playoff. We beat AP in the quarters, therefore top 8 team. And I remember a lot of posters being super worried about their QB going into that game. Sac State couldn't do anything against him. We shut him down.

Also when I mentioned grit and toughness I wasn't saying nobody on those teams were tough. The guys you mentioned, absolutely tough as nails and full of grit. Choate has had a team of those guys for 4 years. A whole team. Every guy on D, every guy on O. That never happened with Ash.

[AFCAT]

Also, Choate got Bob Stitt fired, for which all of Montana football can be thankful!

Hey! Bob Stitt is a genius.

[Cledus]

Ash 2-7, Choate 4-0

I am glad Choate and the cats are 4-0 but compare the grizzlies teams from Ash’s era vs the Choate era and Choate had easier teams. Not knocking Choate at all just want to see more from him in the future to say he has done more than Ash’s teams who won conference championships.

While it is true that um hasn't had dominating teams recently, Choate coached teams did keep um from reaching the playoffs three straight years, beat the number 3 ranked griz in the fourth year, and kept them from claiming a Big Sky title. I'm looking forward to watching future Choate coached teams win championships. Choate teams have already gone deeper in the playoffs than all those Ash coached teams.

As I said in another post: how many of the last four Cat-griz games would Ash have won? Also, who cares if you win a conference championship as long as you make the playoffs (it would be nice but ultimately isn't that big of a deal). In 9 seasons Ash won 2 playoff games. Choate has won 3 in four seasons.

Ash also got byes because he won conference championships. I don't think its really fair to count a win against a really bad 6-5 UIW team in the play in round as equivalent to losing to the eventual finalist.

Again, it shouldn't be a knock on Choate, but you shouldn't get participation points for beating up on the little sisters of the poor either.

I think several posters have put it well: Choate has built the most well rounded, most complete program to the eye test. But I think a lot of us would like to see 2 things: 1) proof that we can beat Top 10 teams that aren't the Griz 2) At least hang with NDSU.

One other thing that sort of gets in my craw: I'm really sick and tired of hearing that Denarius McGhee, Cody Kirk, Trey Robinson, Zach Minter, Mike Person, Alex Singleton, Jody Owens and so on lack toughness, character, and grit because they were coached because they were coached by Ash.

Thats a load of BS.

I'm kind of scratching my head here. Didn't we get a bye last year? And beat 2 teams that were not little sisters of the poor? 2, in 1 playoff. We beat AP in the quarters, therefore top 8 team. And I remember a lot of posters being super worried about their QB going into that game. Sac State couldn't do anything against him. We shut him down.

Also when I mentioned grit and toughness I wasn't saying nobody on those teams were tough. The guys you mentioned, absolutely tough as nails and full of grit. Choate has had a team of those guys for 4 years. A whole team. Every guy on D, every guy on O. That never happened with Ash.

We also pummeled SEMO. I don’t think they were top 8 at the time but they did have a better ranking than us if I recall correctly. And of course the chicken littles invoked the never-beat-a-ranked-team-who’s-not-the-griz canard.

[onceacat]

Ash 2-7, Choate 4-0

I am glad Choate and the cats are 4-0 but compare the grizzlies teams from Ash’s era vs the Choate era and Choate had easier teams. Not knocking Choate at all just want to see more from him in the future to say he has done more than Ash’s teams who won conference championships.

While it is true that um hasn't had dominating teams recently, Choate coached teams did keep um from reaching the playoffs three straight years, beat the number 3 ranked griz in the fourth year, and kept them from claiming a Big Sky title. I'm looking forward to watching future Choate coached teams win championships. Choate teams have already gone deeper in the playoffs than all those Ash coached teams.

As I said in another post: how many of the last four Cat-griz games would Ash have won? Also, who cares if you win a conference championship as long as you make the playoffs (it would be nice but ultimately isn't that big of a deal). In 9 seasons Ash won 2 playoff games. Choate has won 3 in four seasons.

Ash also got byes because he won conference championships. I don't think its really fair to count a win against a really bad 6-5 UIW team in the play in round as equivalent to losing to the eventual finalist.

Again, it shouldn't be a knock on Choate, but you shouldn't get participation points for beating up on the little sisters of the poor either.

I think several posters have put it well: Choate has built the most well rounded, most complete program to the eye test. But I think a lot of us would like to see 2 things: 1) proof that we can beat Top 10 teams that aren't the Griz 2) At least hang with NDSU.

One other thing that sort of gets in my craw: I'm really sick and tired of hearing that Denarius McGhee, Cody Kirk, Trey Robinson, Zach Minter, Mike Person, Alex Singleton, Jody Owens and so on lack toughness, character, and grit because they were coached because they were coached by Ash.

Thats a load of BS.

I'm kind of scratching my head here. Didn't we get a bye last year? And beat 2 teams that were not little sisters of the poor? 2, in 1 playoff. We beat AP in the quarters, therefore top 8 team. And I remember a lot of posters being super worried about their QB going into that game. Sac State couldn't do anything against him. We shut him down.

Also when I mentioned grit and toughness I wasn't saying nobody on those teams were tough. The guys you mentioned, absolutely tough as nails and full of grit. Choate has had a team of those guys for 4 years. A whole team. Every guy on D, every guy on O. That never happened with Ash.

Yes, we got a bye last year. And Ash got 3 byes. So Ash is 2-3 in "real" playoff games and Choate is 1-2. (Although Ash did lose that SDSU play-in game).

My point is simply that when you look at the actual numbers, Choate has a marginally worse record in the playoffs and a worse record in total W/L. Obviously that doesn't tell the whole story, but you have to stretch pretty hard to say that either coach is significantly more impressive than the other.

There are a couple of big caveats: 1) Choates teams have always played best in November. Ash's never did. 2) Choate is 4-0 against the Griz. 3) If Choate takes the Cats to the semis again, his record will be 3-3...which would give him a significant edge. It just hasn't happened yet. I think everyone has already assumed that another trip to the semis is a done deal. And of course 4) APSU was not a good team. Yes, they pulled off the upset at Sac and totally deserve credit for winning a road game. But they would have had a losing record in the Big Sky. They shared a conference championship with SEMO, a team that MSU beat 38-10.

If you are going to compare two things, you set up metrics first, so you know what's important. More or less in order, those on-field metrics for a football coach are:

1) Championships, both conference and national
2) Win Loss Playoffs
3) Win Loss in rivalry games
4) Win/Loss against Top 10 teams
5) Win/Loss vs Top 25 teams
6) Win/Loss everyone else

You can split hairs on how exactly that works out...But Ash wins #1 & #2& #6 Choate CRUSHES #3. And I don't have the time to dig into the rest, but I'm pretty confident that Choate has never beat a Top 10 team (other than the Griz, and I don't want to double count) but I'd guess he wins #5.

What I'm getting at is that in terms of winning football games, the two are pretty well matched...one will beat the other by a hair depending on which metric you prioritize.

If Choate beats NDSU or JMU, thats 100% going to settle the matter. Until then, any claims about Choate being better than Ash are (IMO) entirely based on 'intangibles' like fixing the locker room or how good his press conferences are.

[onceacat]

Ash 2-7, Choate 4-0

I am glad Choate and the cats are 4-0 but compare the grizzlies teams from Ash’s era vs the Choate era and Choate had easier teams. Not knocking Choate at all just want to see more from him in the future to say he has done more than Ash’s teams who won conference championships.

While it is true that um hasn't had dominating teams recently, Choate coached teams did keep um from reaching the playoffs three straight years, beat the number 3 ranked griz in the fourth year, and kept them from claiming a Big Sky title. I'm looking forward to watching future Choate coached teams win championships. Choate teams have already gone deeper in the playoffs than all those Ash coached teams.

As I said in another post: how many of the last four Cat-griz games would Ash have won? Also, who cares if you win a conference championship as long as you make the playoffs (it would be nice but ultimately isn't that big of a deal). In 9 seasons Ash won 2 playoff games. Choate has won 3 in four seasons.

Ash also got byes because he won conference championships. I don't think its really fair to count a win against a really bad 6-5 UIW team in the play in round as equivalent to losing to the eventual finalist.

Again, it shouldn't be a knock on Choate, but you shouldn't get participation points for beating up on the little sisters of the poor either.

I think several posters have put it well: Choate has built the most well rounded, most complete program to the eye test. But I think a lot of us would like to see 2 things: 1) proof that we can beat Top 10 teams that aren't the Griz 2) At least hang with NDSU.

One other thing that sort of gets in my craw: I'm really sick and tired of hearing that Denarius McGhee, Cody Kirk, Trey Robinson, Zach Minter, Mike Person, Alex Singleton, Jody Owens and so on lack toughness, character, and grit because they were coached because they were coached by Ash.

Thats a load of BS.

I'm kind of scratching my head here. Didn't we get a bye last year? And beat 2 teams that were not little sisters of the poor? 2, in 1 playoff. We beat AP in the quarters, therefore top 8 team. And I remember a lot of posters being super worried about their QB going into that game. Sac State couldn't do anything against him. We shut him down.

Also when I mentioned grit and toughness I wasn't saying nobody on those teams were tough. The guys you mentioned, absolutely tough as nails and full of grit. Choate has had a team of those guys for 4 years. A whole team. Every guy on D, every guy on O. That never happened with Ash.

We also pummeled SEMO. I don’t think they were top 8 at the time but they did have a better ranking than us if I recall correctly. And of course the chicken littles invoked the never-beat-a-ranked-team-who’s-not-the-griz canard.

SEMO was #12 at the time.