MSU response

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catatac
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Re: MSU response

Post by catatac » Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:45 pm

MSU01 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:06 pm
catatac wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:21 pm
TIrwin24 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:14 pm
iaafan wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:03 am
TIrwin24 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:29 am
The thing I don't get, is during 2009 the H1N1 virus circulated the world and was extremely problematic for younger adults. The older population had pre-existing immunities and weren't as susceptible.

I was a senior at MSU in 2009 and nothing changed...Not one iota. Hell, it was barely talked about in the public setting.

Now, we have a virus that has caused similar numbers of deaths worldwide to H1N1, primarily in the older population and everybody is going ****** crazy about being in danger, and everyone could possibly die. The numbers don't back this theory, but the fear mob and the MSM continue to push the narrative. The Big Sky Conference and sadly, the MSU administration has bought in to the fear, hook, line and sinker.

Embarrassing
Not sure where you got those numbers, but the death count is not similar. Covid is closing in on 180,000 in the US, while H1N1 was 12,469. Worldwide the death toll from Covid stands at 792,000, while H1N1 had a range of 151,700 to 575,400.
CDC

I took the higher of the H1N1 death count because, it seems like it'd be a more apples/apples comparison.

If you look at the numbers from the CDC, you'll see that anyone aged 0-24 is basically a flat line just above zero. Everyone should know and acknowledge by now that co-morbidities and vitamin D deficiency are the leading cause of Covid-related death, especially if you're 55+.

Since the media is enamored with the case count, you also should recognize that H1N1 had over 60 million US cases. Covid is just over 5 million.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covi ... #AgeAndSex
Good info. I'll also point out the average age of people who die from Covid is about 78 years old. Anybody care to guess what the average life span is for the average person? Ya, about 78 years.

Old people die.
The median death age is 78, not the average (mean). Two very different things with very different interpretations. 25% of the COVID deaths so far have been people under 67, so plenty of people are dying from this who aren't elderly.
Thank you for the correction, I probably misread the article that talked about that. I asked this in another thread but do you know if there is any hard data out there that shows how many healthy, relatively younger people have succumbed to the disease? Someone speculated that it was probably the same as the flu but I'd really love to see that data. I was trying to find it on Worldometers but not seeing it.


Great time to be a BOBCAT!

TomCat88
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Re: MSU response

Post by TomCat88 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:21 pm

catatac wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:43 pm
TIrwin24 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:59 pm
iaafan wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:39 pm


It is important to recognize that the case count was 60 million for H1N1 and for Covid it's just over 5 million. This is certainly something to keep an eye on.

Another important statistical thing about these two sets of numbers is that the H1N1 death count range was determined in 2012. Three years after it made its rounds. The range is based on models. The worldwide high number is the far end of the range of models. The actual counted deaths is closer to the 151,700 figure, but deaths over average around the globe make it possible that 575,400 died. The 792,000 is the actual counted deaths for Covid. When all is said and done (three? years from now) and everything's been analyzed you can feel pretty safe in assuming that the high range for Covid is going to be around 2 million worldwide.

In the USA Covid is nearly 180,000 deaths, compared to the H1N1 final number of 12,469. The US number is already significantly higher than H1N1, so you'd have to agree that Covid is significantly more deadly than H1N1. Covid is obviously going to go higher, probably will reach at least 200,000, but the high range (based on deaths over average) is going to be at least 300,000. So there's really no comparison.

You stated that everyone is going crazy about being in danger, and everyone could possibly die. I've been following this closely and have yet to hear anyone saying anything even remotely close to that. The most any model showed dying was 2-3 million, which isn't even 1% of the US population and nothing near everyone dying. What people are going crazy about is the unwillingness of the president, some governors, and other political figures not taking this seriously and prolonging it unnecessarily. We could we be past this by now (see Spain, Italy, England, Germany, Japan, France, S. Korea), but it continues to drag on in the USA unlike hardly any other countries. Only Brazil and India compare to the USA. I'd like to think we're a lot more well developed than Brazil, but I'm not sure we are anymore. India has about fives as many people as the US, so their numbers are much less than ours per capita.
I used the higher of the ranges because I firmly believe that Covid death counts are inflated substantially. The causes of death are rarely due to Covid, yet, they are being listed as a "Covid death" if they test positive. In my mind, that is seriously f'ed up and misleading on a tremendous scale.

People are going crazy about being in danger! If they aren't, why did most major conferences cancel sports?!? Why is the mainstream media from both sides of the isle still droning on about "covid cases?" This thing is a super-sensationalized nothing burger. Now, I do know that some people have been affected, and that is terrible, however, I don't think that college, and all other school levels should be cancelled. It's complete overkill (no pun intended).
1000%. That's not even in question any more. People that die for any reason and also happen to test positive for Covid are getting Covid listed as the CAUSE of death when it is absolutely not causing the death in a lot of cases. That is messed up. People counter with, well there are also a bunch of deaths of old people that didn't get tested and they likely would have had Covid... which is true. Again though... the vast, vast majority of these are elderly people or people with underlying conditions.
Absolutely not. Covid deaths are counted in the same way as flu, pneumonia or any other disease. Deaths due to Covid are at least 50,000 higher than the number being reported. It’s very simple to figure this out. It’s called “deaths over the average” The only way this isn’t true is if there’s some other unknown disease out there that’s killing around 50,000 or more people.


MSU - 14 team National Champions (most recent 2011); 52 individual National Champions (most recent 2017).
toM StUber

onceacat
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Posts: 1789
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:35 pm

Re: MSU response

Post by onceacat » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:53 pm

TomCat88 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:21 pm
catatac wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:43 pm
TIrwin24 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:59 pm
iaafan wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:39 pm


It is important to recognize that the case count was 60 million for H1N1 and for Covid it's just over 5 million. This is certainly something to keep an eye on.

Another important statistical thing about these two sets of numbers is that the H1N1 death count range was determined in 2012. Three years after it made its rounds. The range is based on models. The worldwide high number is the far end of the range of models. The actual counted deaths is closer to the 151,700 figure, but deaths over average around the globe make it possible that 575,400 died. The 792,000 is the actual counted deaths for Covid. When all is said and done (three? years from now) and everything's been analyzed you can feel pretty safe in assuming that the high range for Covid is going to be around 2 million worldwide.

In the USA Covid is nearly 180,000 deaths, compared to the H1N1 final number of 12,469. The US number is already significantly higher than H1N1, so you'd have to agree that Covid is significantly more deadly than H1N1. Covid is obviously going to go higher, probably will reach at least 200,000, but the high range (based on deaths over average) is going to be at least 300,000. So there's really no comparison.

You stated that everyone is going crazy about being in danger, and everyone could possibly die. I've been following this closely and have yet to hear anyone saying anything even remotely close to that. The most any model showed dying was 2-3 million, which isn't even 1% of the US population and nothing near everyone dying. What people are going crazy about is the unwillingness of the president, some governors, and other political figures not taking this seriously and prolonging it unnecessarily. We could we be past this by now (see Spain, Italy, England, Germany, Japan, France, S. Korea), but it continues to drag on in the USA unlike hardly any other countries. Only Brazil and India compare to the USA. I'd like to think we're a lot more well developed than Brazil, but I'm not sure we are anymore. India has about fives as many people as the US, so their numbers are much less than ours per capita.
I used the higher of the ranges because I firmly believe that Covid death counts are inflated substantially. The causes of death are rarely due to Covid, yet, they are being listed as a "Covid death" if they test positive. In my mind, that is seriously f'ed up and misleading on a tremendous scale.

People are going crazy about being in danger! If they aren't, why did most major conferences cancel sports?!? Why is the mainstream media from both sides of the isle still droning on about "covid cases?" This thing is a super-sensationalized nothing burger. Now, I do know that some people have been affected, and that is terrible, however, I don't think that college, and all other school levels should be cancelled. It's complete overkill (no pun intended).
1000%. That's not even in question any more. People that die for any reason and also happen to test positive for Covid are getting Covid listed as the CAUSE of death when it is absolutely not causing the death in a lot of cases. That is messed up. People counter with, well there are also a bunch of deaths of old people that didn't get tested and they likely would have had Covid... which is true. Again though... the vast, vast majority of these are elderly people or people with underlying conditions.
Absolutely not. Covid deaths are counted in the same way as flu, pneumonia or any other disease. Deaths due to Covid are at least 50,000 higher than the number being reported. It’s very simple to figure this out. It’s called “deaths over the average” The only way this isn’t true is if there’s some other unknown disease out there that’s killing around 50,000 or more people.
Yeah, its really weird that people keep repeating this lie. We know with 100% certainty that Covid deaths are undercounted, even if there are a handful of people who were misclassified. Its not even in question, except that some folks who've been politicizing this for the last 6 months are trying to convince you that 170,000 "excess" deaths are no big deal.

One death is a tragedy. 170,000 deaths is a statistic.



onceacat
1st Team All-BobcatNation
Posts: 1789
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:35 pm

Re: MSU response

Post by onceacat » Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:04 pm

iaafan wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:09 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:38 pm
CelticCat wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:39 am
TIrwin24 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:29 am
The thing I don't get, is during 2009 the H1N1 virus circulated the world and was extremely problematic for younger adults. The older population had pre-existing immunities and weren't as susceptible.

I was a senior at MSU in 2009 and nothing changed...Not one iota. Hell, it was barely talked about in the public setting.

Now, we have a virus that has caused similar numbers of deaths worldwide to H1N1, primarily in the older population and everybody is going ****** crazy about being in danger, and everyone could possibly die. The numbers don't back this theory, but the fear mob and the MSM continue to push the narrative. The Big Sky Conference and sadly, the MSU administration has bought in to the fear, hook, line and sinker.

Embarrassing
Do you really think the people in charge for the conference and each school just sat around and watched the news and based all their decisions on that?
It wasn’t a consensus. The powers that be were way more concerned about the public perception than they were the risk of the virus. I know with 100% certainty our AD and our head football coach wanted fall football. They even thought they could do it with fans. I’m told UM was in the same boat.

It sucks to see schools have to make these decisions, even if it goes against their own personal feelings. It’s the same reason my confidence level is very low for spring ball.
That's the first I've heard of that. I didn't get that from any of the interviews I read or saw, but maybe our coach and AD were just giving it lip service. Choate seems to always speak his mind, but maybe that only goes so far. I'm sure if Cruzado was one of the people that weighed in for MSU and she wasn't for playing, then Choate would almost have to stand down. Cat is out of the bag now though. Hopefully there isn't a rift between our two highest paid MSU employees. Both are extremely successful, so it'd be a shame if they're butting heads. Nonetheless, thanks for the information. Very interesting.
Montana arguably has numbers that could support some level of football and, possible, depending on what trends look like in the next couple of weeks, put some fans in the stands.

Utah, California, Arizona, and Idaho do not. Washington, Oregon, and Colorado are somewhere in the middle.

The White House issued guidance back in April for when we could go back to sports. We aren't anywhere close to that. So we don't get sports.

Its like if a kid on the team refused to hit the weight room in the summer & showed up for fall practice fat & out of shape with a whole bunch of failed classes. 100% of BN would expect Choate to cut the kid.

The US collectively decided to drink beer & party in the offseason. We as a country showed up fat & out of shape with Fs in every single class.

Now, we are whining because we were too lazy & undisciplined to meet the basic rules for staying on the team.

What did we expect?



iaafan
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 5543
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 12:44 pm

Re: MSU response

Post by iaafan » Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:46 am

onceacat wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:04 pm
iaafan wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:09 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:38 pm
CelticCat wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:39 am
TIrwin24 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:29 am
The thing I don't get, is during 2009 the H1N1 virus circulated the world and was extremely problematic for younger adults. The older population had pre-existing immunities and weren't as susceptible.

I was a senior at MSU in 2009 and nothing changed...Not one iota. Hell, it was barely talked about in the public setting.

Now, we have a virus that has caused similar numbers of deaths worldwide to H1N1, primarily in the older population and everybody is going ****** crazy about being in danger, and everyone could possibly die. The numbers don't back this theory, but the fear mob and the MSM continue to push the narrative. The Big Sky Conference and sadly, the MSU administration has bought in to the fear, hook, line and sinker.

Embarrassing
Do you really think the people in charge for the conference and each school just sat around and watched the news and based all their decisions on that?
It wasn’t a consensus. The powers that be were way more concerned about the public perception than they were the risk of the virus. I know with 100% certainty our AD and our head football coach wanted fall football. They even thought they could do it with fans. I’m told UM was in the same boat.

It sucks to see schools have to make these decisions, even if it goes against their own personal feelings. It’s the same reason my confidence level is very low for spring ball.
That's the first I've heard of that. I didn't get that from any of the interviews I read or saw, but maybe our coach and AD were just giving it lip service. Choate seems to always speak his mind, but maybe that only goes so far. I'm sure if Cruzado was one of the people that weighed in for MSU and she wasn't for playing, then Choate would almost have to stand down. Cat is out of the bag now though. Hopefully there isn't a rift between our two highest paid MSU employees. Both are extremely successful, so it'd be a shame if they're butting heads. Nonetheless, thanks for the information. Very interesting.
Montana arguably has numbers that could support some level of football and, possible, depending on what trends look like in the next couple of weeks, put some fans in the stands.

Utah, California, Arizona, and Idaho do not. Washington, Oregon, and Colorado are somewhere in the middle.

The White House issued guidance back in April for when we could go back to sports. We aren't anywhere close to that. So we don't get sports.

Its like if a kid on the team refused to hit the weight room in the summer & showed up for fall practice fat & out of shape with a whole bunch of failed classes. 100% of BN would expect Choate to cut the kid.

The US collectively decided to drink beer & party in the offseason. We as a country showed up fat & out of shape with Fs in every single class.

Now, we are whining because we were too lazy & undisciplined to meet the basic rules for staying on the team.

What did we expect?
Great synopsis. Sums it up perfectly. I'm not expecting much going forward.



MSU01
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 4218
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:21 pm

Re: MSU response

Post by MSU01 » Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:11 am

catatac wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:45 pm
MSU01 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:06 pm
catatac wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:21 pm
TIrwin24 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:14 pm
iaafan wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:03 am
TIrwin24 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:29 am
The thing I don't get, is during 2009 the H1N1 virus circulated the world and was extremely problematic for younger adults. The older population had pre-existing immunities and weren't as susceptible.

I was a senior at MSU in 2009 and nothing changed...Not one iota. Hell, it was barely talked about in the public setting.

Now, we have a virus that has caused similar numbers of deaths worldwide to H1N1, primarily in the older population and everybody is going ****** crazy about being in danger, and everyone could possibly die. The numbers don't back this theory, but the fear mob and the MSM continue to push the narrative. The Big Sky Conference and sadly, the MSU administration has bought in to the fear, hook, line and sinker.

Embarrassing
Not sure where you got those numbers, but the death count is not similar. Covid is closing in on 180,000 in the US, while H1N1 was 12,469. Worldwide the death toll from Covid stands at 792,000, while H1N1 had a range of 151,700 to 575,400.
CDC

I took the higher of the H1N1 death count because, it seems like it'd be a more apples/apples comparison.

If you look at the numbers from the CDC, you'll see that anyone aged 0-24 is basically a flat line just above zero. Everyone should know and acknowledge by now that co-morbidities and vitamin D deficiency are the leading cause of Covid-related death, especially if you're 55+.

Since the media is enamored with the case count, you also should recognize that H1N1 had over 60 million US cases. Covid is just over 5 million.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covi ... #AgeAndSex
Good info. I'll also point out the average age of people who die from Covid is about 78 years old. Anybody care to guess what the average life span is for the average person? Ya, about 78 years.

Old people die.
The median death age is 78, not the average (mean). Two very different things with very different interpretations. 25% of the COVID deaths so far have been people under 67, so plenty of people are dying from this who aren't elderly.
Thank you for the correction, I probably misread the article that talked about that. I asked this in another thread but do you know if there is any hard data out there that shows how many healthy, relatively younger people have succumbed to the disease? Someone speculated that it was probably the same as the flu but I'd really love to see that data. I was trying to find it on Worldometers but not seeing it.
The data varies a bit depending on which source you use, but most sources have it that around 10% of Covid deaths have been in people under 50. Not sure how many of those had other health issues that played a role - there are certainly plenty of news stories out there about healthy young people dying, but we of course can't make generalizations based on anecdotal evidence like this. Estimated Covid death rates are higher than flu death rates in all age groups, so people equating the two are wrong to do so.


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bobcat99
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Posts: 3821
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:11 am

Re: MSU response

Post by bobcat99 » Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:41 pm

onceacat wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:53 pm
TomCat88 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:21 pm
catatac wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:43 pm
TIrwin24 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:59 pm
iaafan wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:39 pm


It is important to recognize that the case count was 60 million for H1N1 and for Covid it's just over 5 million. This is certainly something to keep an eye on.

Another important statistical thing about these two sets of numbers is that the H1N1 death count range was determined in 2012. Three years after it made its rounds. The range is based on models. The worldwide high number is the far end of the range of models. The actual counted deaths is closer to the 151,700 figure, but deaths over average around the globe make it possible that 575,400 died. The 792,000 is the actual counted deaths for Covid. When all is said and done (three? years from now) and everything's been analyzed you can feel pretty safe in assuming that the high range for Covid is going to be around 2 million worldwide.

In the USA Covid is nearly 180,000 deaths, compared to the H1N1 final number of 12,469. The US number is already significantly higher than H1N1, so you'd have to agree that Covid is significantly more deadly than H1N1. Covid is obviously going to go higher, probably will reach at least 200,000, but the high range (based on deaths over average) is going to be at least 300,000. So there's really no comparison.

You stated that everyone is going crazy about being in danger, and everyone could possibly die. I've been following this closely and have yet to hear anyone saying anything even remotely close to that. The most any model showed dying was 2-3 million, which isn't even 1% of the US population and nothing near everyone dying. What people are going crazy about is the unwillingness of the president, some governors, and other political figures not taking this seriously and prolonging it unnecessarily. We could we be past this by now (see Spain, Italy, England, Germany, Japan, France, S. Korea), but it continues to drag on in the USA unlike hardly any other countries. Only Brazil and India compare to the USA. I'd like to think we're a lot more well developed than Brazil, but I'm not sure we are anymore. India has about fives as many people as the US, so their numbers are much less than ours per capita.
I used the higher of the ranges because I firmly believe that Covid death counts are inflated substantially. The causes of death are rarely due to Covid, yet, they are being listed as a "Covid death" if they test positive. In my mind, that is seriously f'ed up and misleading on a tremendous scale.

People are going crazy about being in danger! If they aren't, why did most major conferences cancel sports?!? Why is the mainstream media from both sides of the isle still droning on about "covid cases?" This thing is a super-sensationalized nothing burger. Now, I do know that some people have been affected, and that is terrible, however, I don't think that college, and all other school levels should be cancelled. It's complete overkill (no pun intended).
1000%. That's not even in question any more. People that die for any reason and also happen to test positive for Covid are getting Covid listed as the CAUSE of death when it is absolutely not causing the death in a lot of cases. That is messed up. People counter with, well there are also a bunch of deaths of old people that didn't get tested and they likely would have had Covid... which is true. Again though... the vast, vast majority of these are elderly people or people with underlying conditions.
Absolutely not. Covid deaths are counted in the same way as flu, pneumonia or any other disease. Deaths due to Covid are at least 50,000 higher than the number being reported. It’s very simple to figure this out. It’s called “deaths over the average” The only way this isn’t true is if there’s some other unknown disease out there that’s killing around 50,000 or more people.
Yeah, its really weird that people keep repeating this lie. We know with 100% certainty that Covid deaths are undercounted, even if there are a handful of people who were misclassified. Its not even in question, except that some folks who've been politicizing this for the last 6 months are trying to convince you that 170,000 "excess" deaths are no big deal.

One death is a tragedy. 170,000 deaths is a statistic.
https://t.co/z1zUc0EtZm

"Just a handful".

What I linked should go to a video from a county update on the Covid.

I'll paraphrase for those who don't want to listen.

"Any death certificate that has Covid-19 on it somewhere is counted."

"If anybody has died but Covid-19 is not on the death certificate, but has tested positive for Covid-19 within a certain time frame, they also are counted as a positive Covid-19 death."

What they're saying is that it doesn't matter what you die from, if you had Covid, they're saying that's what you died from. If you pay any attention at all, you can see it's not just a handful of cases here and there, it's POLICY.



BleedingBLue
Member # Retired
Posts: 2991
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:00 pm

Re: MSU response

Post by BleedingBLue » Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:57 pm

The NCAA approved the additional year of eligibility and the additional year in which to complete it. A spokesperson did address the scholarship issue and said it's something that they will have to discuss. It may be more scholarships and it may work itself out with attrition.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.c ... atform=amp



onceacat
1st Team All-BobcatNation
Posts: 1789
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:35 pm

Re: MSU response

Post by onceacat » Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:23 pm

bobcat99 wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:41 pm
onceacat wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:53 pm
TomCat88 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:21 pm
catatac wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:43 pm
TIrwin24 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:59 pm
iaafan wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:39 pm


It is important to recognize that the case count was 60 million for H1N1 and for Covid it's just over 5 million. This is certainly something to keep an eye on.

Another important statistical thing about these two sets of numbers is that the H1N1 death count range was determined in 2012. Three years after it made its rounds. The range is based on models. The worldwide high number is the far end of the range of models. The actual counted deaths is closer to the 151,700 figure, but deaths over average around the globe make it possible that 575,400 died. The 792,000 is the actual counted deaths for Covid. When all is said and done (three? years from now) and everything's been analyzed you can feel pretty safe in assuming that the high range for Covid is going to be around 2 million worldwide.

In the USA Covid is nearly 180,000 deaths, compared to the H1N1 final number of 12,469. The US number is already significantly higher than H1N1, so you'd have to agree that Covid is significantly more deadly than H1N1. Covid is obviously going to go higher, probably will reach at least 200,000, but the high range (based on deaths over average) is going to be at least 300,000. So there's really no comparison.

You stated that everyone is going crazy about being in danger, and everyone could possibly die. I've been following this closely and have yet to hear anyone saying anything even remotely close to that. The most any model showed dying was 2-3 million, which isn't even 1% of the US population and nothing near everyone dying. What people are going crazy about is the unwillingness of the president, some governors, and other political figures not taking this seriously and prolonging it unnecessarily. We could we be past this by now (see Spain, Italy, England, Germany, Japan, France, S. Korea), but it continues to drag on in the USA unlike hardly any other countries. Only Brazil and India compare to the USA. I'd like to think we're a lot more well developed than Brazil, but I'm not sure we are anymore. India has about fives as many people as the US, so their numbers are much less than ours per capita.
I used the higher of the ranges because I firmly believe that Covid death counts are inflated substantially. The causes of death are rarely due to Covid, yet, they are being listed as a "Covid death" if they test positive. In my mind, that is seriously f'ed up and misleading on a tremendous scale.

People are going crazy about being in danger! If they aren't, why did most major conferences cancel sports?!? Why is the mainstream media from both sides of the isle still droning on about "covid cases?" This thing is a super-sensationalized nothing burger. Now, I do know that some people have been affected, and that is terrible, however, I don't think that college, and all other school levels should be cancelled. It's complete overkill (no pun intended).
1000%. That's not even in question any more. People that die for any reason and also happen to test positive for Covid are getting Covid listed as the CAUSE of death when it is absolutely not causing the death in a lot of cases. That is messed up. People counter with, well there are also a bunch of deaths of old people that didn't get tested and they likely would have had Covid... which is true. Again though... the vast, vast majority of these are elderly people or people with underlying conditions.
Absolutely not. Covid deaths are counted in the same way as flu, pneumonia or any other disease. Deaths due to Covid are at least 50,000 higher than the number being reported. It’s very simple to figure this out. It’s called “deaths over the average” The only way this isn’t true is if there’s some other unknown disease out there that’s killing around 50,000 or more people.
Yeah, its really weird that people keep repeating this lie. We know with 100% certainty that Covid deaths are undercounted, even if there are a handful of people who were misclassified. Its not even in question, except that some folks who've been politicizing this for the last 6 months are trying to convince you that 170,000 "excess" deaths are no big deal.

One death is a tragedy. 170,000 deaths is a statistic.
https://t.co/z1zUc0EtZm

"Just a handful".

What I linked should go to a video from a county update on the Covid.

I'll paraphrase for those who don't want to listen.

"Any death certificate that has Covid-19 on it somewhere is counted."

"If anybody has died but Covid-19 is not on the death certificate, but has tested positive for Covid-19 within a certain time frame, they also are counted as a positive Covid-19 death."

What they're saying is that it doesn't matter what you die from, if you had Covid, they're saying that's what you died from. If you pay any attention at all, you can see it's not just a handful of cases here and there, it's POLICY.
Tom had a very succinct explanation. I'm not sure why you continually disregard regard it, but I'm guessing you are being deliberately obtuse.

Covid deaths are being counted the SAME WAY we have ALWAYS counted flu deaths.

Yes, there are some people who have a positive covid test but probably died of some other thing. When you've counted to 170,000 dead bodies, there are going to be some mistakes. Seriously, what's your best guess at the overcount in that 170,000? 1,000? 5,000? 10,000? Regardless, its immaterial to the overall number. You are getting totally rabbit holed into a rounding error non-issue.

ESPECIALLY when we can compare the deaths in a typical year between Feb1 and Aug 20. That number is well over 200,000. So yeah, I'll agree with you that there are some non-Covid cases being counted as Covid deaths incorrectly. But even if there are 20,000 improperly counted, the evidence is crystal clear that 40,000 are undercounted.

For crying out loud, MSU is supposed to be the STEM school...and people on this board are struggling with HS level stats.



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Re: MSU response

Post by ilovethecats » Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:28 am

iaafan wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:09 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:38 pm
CelticCat wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:39 am
TIrwin24 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:29 am
The thing I don't get, is during 2009 the H1N1 virus circulated the world and was extremely problematic for younger adults. The older population had pre-existing immunities and weren't as susceptible.

I was a senior at MSU in 2009 and nothing changed...Not one iota. Hell, it was barely talked about in the public setting.

Now, we have a virus that has caused similar numbers of deaths worldwide to H1N1, primarily in the older population and everybody is going ****** crazy about being in danger, and everyone could possibly die. The numbers don't back this theory, but the fear mob and the MSM continue to push the narrative. The Big Sky Conference and sadly, the MSU administration has bought in to the fear, hook, line and sinker.

Embarrassing
Do you really think the people in charge for the conference and each school just sat around and watched the news and based all their decisions on that?
It wasn’t a consensus. The powers that be were way more concerned about the public perception than they were the risk of the virus. I know with 100% certainty our AD and our head football coach wanted fall football. They even thought they could do it with fans. I’m told UM was in the same boat.

It sucks to see schools have to make these decisions, even if it goes against their own personal feelings. It’s the same reason my confidence level is very low for spring ball.
That's the first I've heard of that. I didn't get that from any of the interviews I read or saw, but maybe our coach and AD were just giving it lip service. Choate seems to always speak his mind, but maybe that only goes so far. I'm sure if Cruzado was one of the people that weighed in for MSU and she wasn't for playing, then Choate would almost have to stand down. Cat is out of the bag now though. Hopefully there isn't a rift between our two highest paid MSU employees. Both are extremely successful, so it'd be a shame if they're butting heads. Nonetheless, thanks for the information. Very interesting.
I can’t speak on any of that as I don’t know what relationships they have. I’ll say from what I’ve seen, president, AD, and head coach have an amazing working relationship. I assume they all like each other, but like I said, who knows.

It’s important to note that just because people may disagree, that doesn’t have to mean their butting heads or there’s a rift. It might just mean they disagree. In this case, I’m not even sure they all disagreed. In the current climate, people’s hands are tied.

All I know is what I said. I know for certain these guys wanted football and thought it could happen. No one seems super confident in spring ball that I can tell but who knows; it’s August.



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Re: MSU response

Post by bobcat99 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:05 am

If we were scheduled to play like we should be, we'd be on prime time television.

Not playing is a mistake.

MSU can take in students from all across the country, but we can't play football? That's a bunch of BS.



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Re: MSU response

Post by ilovethecats » Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:38 am

bobcat99 wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:05 am
If we were scheduled to play like we should be, we'd be on prime time television.

Not playing is a mistake.

MSU can take in students from all across the country, but we can't play football? That's a bunch of BS.
You'll drive yourself bananas trying to make sense of the "rules" for our "safety".

We obviously have people on very opposite ends of the spectrum. That has been clear from day one. I've asked those on the other side of the coin some questions but can never figure it out.

Why can we pack 3,000 kids in the dorms but football is not safe?
Why can high school kids go to class all week but they can't cheer on those classmates at a football game?
Why were demonstrations deemed ok but funerals and weddings were not?
Why were liquor stores considered "essential" but small businesses were forced to shut down?
Why were masks not required right away? Our brightest minds really didn't know that masks could prevent spread? That's scary.
If masks are as effective as we believe, why do some businesses remained closed or with limitations?
Why are businesses and schools allowed to be open now when we have more cases than we did in April and May?
If the asymptomatic people are major spreaders, why have they again stopped testing asymptomatic people?
Why do we put so much faith in testing numbers when there have been so many testing issues?
Why are bars and restaurants forced to close early? Is Covid more prevalent after midnight?
Why are masks required when entering a bar or restaurant but only from the door to the table? Is that truly the danger zone?
Why have we not seen a crazy amount of cases in mega stores like Walmart and Costco? How are they avoiding such a dire situation?
How are athletes in the ACC, SEC and Big12 still practicing 2 weeks after deciding to try and play this fall?
How did the MLB avoid a complete shutdown after many positive cases? What are they doing to keep playing?

I'm not looking for actual answers because there obviously isn't any. Just questions I ponder every day while this entire circus unfolds. :lol:



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Re: MSU response

Post by CelticCat » Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:10 pm

Well in regards to bars closing early, I've read somewhere that alcohol lowers your inhibitions and decision making abilities. I don't know though, could be fake news.


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ilovethecats
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Re: MSU response

Post by ilovethecats » Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:09 am

CelticCat wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:10 pm
Well in regards to bars closing early, I've read somewhere that alcohol lowers your inhibitions and decision making abilities. I don't know though, could be fake news.
I don't know enough about it. Does alcohol just do that from midnight to 1:30am or can it have that effect from 8:00am when bars open until midnight as well?

I might have to test it out. I'm rarely out past midnight anyway so it'd be great to learn I'm immune from lower inhibitions and bad decisions if true. \:D/



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Re: MSU response

Post by iaafan » Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:19 am

CelticCat wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:10 pm
Well in regards to bars closing early, I've read somewhere that alcohol lowers your inhibitions and decision making abilities. I don't know though, could be fake news.
I won’t be obtuse. Yes, the people out drinking late at night tend to be younger and more active, therefore more likely to spread germs.



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Re: MSU response

Post by The Butcher » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:07 am

CelticCat wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:10 pm
Well in regards to bars closing early, I've read somewhere that alcohol lowers your inhibitions and decision making abilities. I don't know though, could be fake news.
I think that is fake news. I CANNOT REMEMBER ever making a bad decision after midnight while getting my drink on at the bar. :wink:



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Re: MSU response

Post by onceacat » Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:43 pm

ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:38 am
bobcat99 wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:05 am
If we were scheduled to play like we should be, we'd be on prime time television.

Not playing is a mistake.

MSU can take in students from all across the country, but we can't play football? That's a bunch of BS.
You'll drive yourself bananas trying to make sense of the "rules" for our "safety".

We obviously have people on very opposite ends of the spectrum. That has been clear from day one. I've asked those on the other side of the coin some questions but can never figure it out.

Why can we pack 3,000 kids in the dorms but football is not safe?
Why can high school kids go to class all week but they can't cheer on those classmates at a football game?
Why were demonstrations deemed ok but funerals and weddings were not?
Why were liquor stores considered "essential" but small businesses were forced to shut down?
Why were masks not required right away? Our brightest minds really didn't know that masks could prevent spread? That's scary.
If masks are as effective as we believe, why do some businesses remained closed or with limitations?
Why are businesses and schools allowed to be open now when we have more cases than we did in April and May?
If the asymptomatic people are major spreaders, why have they again stopped testing asymptomatic people?
Why do we put so much faith in testing numbers when there have been so many testing issues?
Why are bars and restaurants forced to close early? Is Covid more prevalent after midnight?
Why are masks required when entering a bar or restaurant but only from the door to the table? Is that truly the danger zone?
Why have we not seen a crazy amount of cases in mega stores like Walmart and Costco? How are they avoiding such a dire situation?
How are athletes in the ACC, SEC and Big12 still practicing 2 weeks after deciding to try and play this fall?
How did the MLB avoid a complete shutdown after many positive cases? What are they doing to keep playing?

I'm not looking for actual answers because there obviously isn't any. Just questions I ponder every day while this entire circus unfolds. :lol:
All those answers & more have been given if you’ve made a good faith effort to listen.



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Re: MSU response

Post by ilovethecats » Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:55 pm

onceacat wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:43 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:38 am
bobcat99 wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:05 am
If we were scheduled to play like we should be, we'd be on prime time television.

Not playing is a mistake.

MSU can take in students from all across the country, but we can't play football? That's a bunch of BS.
You'll drive yourself bananas trying to make sense of the "rules" for our "safety".

We obviously have people on very opposite ends of the spectrum. That has been clear from day one. I've asked those on the other side of the coin some questions but can never figure it out.

Why can we pack 3,000 kids in the dorms but football is not safe?
Why can high school kids go to class all week but they can't cheer on those classmates at a football game?
Why were demonstrations deemed ok but funerals and weddings were not?
Why were liquor stores considered "essential" but small businesses were forced to shut down?
Why were masks not required right away? Our brightest minds really didn't know that masks could prevent spread? That's scary.
If masks are as effective as we believe, why do some businesses remained closed or with limitations?
Why are businesses and schools allowed to be open now when we have more cases than we did in April and May?
If the asymptomatic people are major spreaders, why have they again stopped testing asymptomatic people?
Why do we put so much faith in testing numbers when there have been so many testing issues?
Why are bars and restaurants forced to close early? Is Covid more prevalent after midnight?
Why are masks required when entering a bar or restaurant but only from the door to the table? Is that truly the danger zone?
Why have we not seen a crazy amount of cases in mega stores like Walmart and Costco? How are they avoiding such a dire situation?
How are athletes in the ACC, SEC and Big12 still practicing 2 weeks after deciding to try and play this fall?
How did the MLB avoid a complete shutdown after many positive cases? What are they doing to keep playing?

I'm not looking for actual answers because there obviously isn't any. Just questions I ponder every day while this entire circus unfolds. :lol:
All those answers & more have been given if you’ve made a good faith effort to listen.
Wow really? I feel like I've had a lot of conversations about some of these topics and don't recall hearing any good reason.

Honestly, I don't recall a single answer to any of those questions. But by all means, I'm all ears. So far, pretty much all I have heard in regards to all these questions is that it's because we were told to do something so it's our responsibility to listen. That works for some, but for me it's not a great answer.

I'm DYING to hear why a mask from a door to a table or a bar before taking it off and having a great time with friends for hours keeps me way safer. Apparently that was answered and I missed it. :-k



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Re: MSU response

Post by CelticCat » Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:07 pm

ilovethecats wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:55 pm
onceacat wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:43 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:38 am
bobcat99 wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:05 am
If we were scheduled to play like we should be, we'd be on prime time television.

Not playing is a mistake.

MSU can take in students from all across the country, but we can't play football? That's a bunch of BS.
You'll drive yourself bananas trying to make sense of the "rules" for our "safety".

We obviously have people on very opposite ends of the spectrum. That has been clear from day one. I've asked those on the other side of the coin some questions but can never figure it out.

Why can we pack 3,000 kids in the dorms but football is not safe?
Why can high school kids go to class all week but they can't cheer on those classmates at a football game?
Why were demonstrations deemed ok but funerals and weddings were not?
Why were liquor stores considered "essential" but small businesses were forced to shut down?
Why were masks not required right away? Our brightest minds really didn't know that masks could prevent spread? That's scary.
If masks are as effective as we believe, why do some businesses remained closed or with limitations?
Why are businesses and schools allowed to be open now when we have more cases than we did in April and May?
If the asymptomatic people are major spreaders, why have they again stopped testing asymptomatic people?
Why do we put so much faith in testing numbers when there have been so many testing issues?
Why are bars and restaurants forced to close early? Is Covid more prevalent after midnight?
Why are masks required when entering a bar or restaurant but only from the door to the table? Is that truly the danger zone?
Why have we not seen a crazy amount of cases in mega stores like Walmart and Costco? How are they avoiding such a dire situation?
How are athletes in the ACC, SEC and Big12 still practicing 2 weeks after deciding to try and play this fall?
How did the MLB avoid a complete shutdown after many positive cases? What are they doing to keep playing?

I'm not looking for actual answers because there obviously isn't any. Just questions I ponder every day while this entire circus unfolds. :lol:
All those answers & more have been given if you’ve made a good faith effort to listen.
Wow really? I feel like I've had a lot of conversations about some of these topics and don't recall hearing any good reason.

Honestly, I don't recall a single answer to any of those questions. But by all means, I'm all ears. So far, pretty much all I have heard in regards to all these questions is that it's because we were told to do something so it's our responsibility to listen. That works for some, but for me it's not a great answer.

I'm DYING to hear why a mask from a door to a table or a bar before taking it off and having a great time with friends for hours keeps me way safer. Apparently that was answered and I missed it. :-k
It doesn't if you behave the way you normally would once inside the bar. Once inside you still need to practice social distancing (spread out tables), which is why restaurants have decreased maximum occupants. If people go into a bar, wear their mask to the table, but then take it off and proceed to behave like they always have, chatting up strangers, well the masks at that point were just a ticket to entry and nothing more. If you go with someone you've been quarantining with, find a secluded table (preferably outside), trust that the establishment has taken appropriate sanitation measures, you should be able to take your mask off (put it back on when the server comes over, and they are wearing theirs), stay at your table, eat your food and drink you drink, it shouldn't be that much higher of a risk than getting takeout. The problem is, I don't trust other patrons or restaurants to do all of this, hence I haven't sat down at a restaurant since Covid, although I did go into an empty brewery and had a beer with literally no one else in there except my wife and I.

Long story short, it can be done relatively safely but everyone needs to play ball, and at this point I have zero faith that people will.


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Re: MSU response

Post by ilovethecats » Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:22 pm

CelticCat wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:07 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:55 pm
onceacat wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:43 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:38 am
bobcat99 wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:05 am
If we were scheduled to play like we should be, we'd be on prime time television.

Not playing is a mistake.

MSU can take in students from all across the country, but we can't play football? That's a bunch of BS.
You'll drive yourself bananas trying to make sense of the "rules" for our "safety".

We obviously have people on very opposite ends of the spectrum. That has been clear from day one. I've asked those on the other side of the coin some questions but can never figure it out.

Why can we pack 3,000 kids in the dorms but football is not safe?
Why can high school kids go to class all week but they can't cheer on those classmates at a football game?
Why were demonstrations deemed ok but funerals and weddings were not?
Why were liquor stores considered "essential" but small businesses were forced to shut down?
Why were masks not required right away? Our brightest minds really didn't know that masks could prevent spread? That's scary.
If masks are as effective as we believe, why do some businesses remained closed or with limitations?
Why are businesses and schools allowed to be open now when we have more cases than we did in April and May?
If the asymptomatic people are major spreaders, why have they again stopped testing asymptomatic people?
Why do we put so much faith in testing numbers when there have been so many testing issues?
Why are bars and restaurants forced to close early? Is Covid more prevalent after midnight?
Why are masks required when entering a bar or restaurant but only from the door to the table? Is that truly the danger zone?
Why have we not seen a crazy amount of cases in mega stores like Walmart and Costco? How are they avoiding such a dire situation?
How are athletes in the ACC, SEC and Big12 still practicing 2 weeks after deciding to try and play this fall?
How did the MLB avoid a complete shutdown after many positive cases? What are they doing to keep playing?

I'm not looking for actual answers because there obviously isn't any. Just questions I ponder every day while this entire circus unfolds. :lol:
All those answers & more have been given if you’ve made a good faith effort to listen.
Wow really? I feel like I've had a lot of conversations about some of these topics and don't recall hearing any good reason.

Honestly, I don't recall a single answer to any of those questions. But by all means, I'm all ears. So far, pretty much all I have heard in regards to all these questions is that it's because we were told to do something so it's our responsibility to listen. That works for some, but for me it's not a great answer.

I'm DYING to hear why a mask from a door to a table or a bar before taking it off and having a great time with friends for hours keeps me way safer. Apparently that was answered and I missed it. :-k
It doesn't if you behave the way you normally would once inside the bar. Once inside you still need to practice social distancing (spread out tables), which is why restaurants have decreased maximum occupants. If people go into a bar, wear their mask to the table, but then take it off and proceed to behave like they always have, chatting up strangers, well the masks at that point were just a ticket to entry and nothing more. If you go with someone you've been quarantining with, find a secluded table (preferably outside), trust that the establishment has taken appropriate sanitation measures, you should be able to take your mask off (put it back on when the server comes over, and they are wearing theirs), stay at your table, eat your food and drink you drink, it shouldn't be that much higher of a risk than getting takeout. The problem is, I don't trust other patrons or restaurants to do all of this, hence I haven't sat down at a restaurant since Covid, although I did go into an empty brewery and had a beer with literally no one else in there except my wife and I.

Long story short, it can be done relatively safely but everyone needs to play ball, and at this point I have zero faith that people will.
I've eaten out probably 100 times since covid started. Been to all kinds of breweries as well. I think for the most part people are playing along and doing what you described. Though I never see people putting their masks on once their seated, even when servers are present.

We can have tables up to 12 now in Bozeman and people are definitely dining with friends for sure. I've just always found the mask aspect in restaurants funny is all. Like the 20 feet from the door to your table is some kind of danger zone.

I also find it funny that you can start partying at a bar at 8am and get 16 hours of drinking in if you choose, but those extra two hours are too dangerous. You know, inhibitions and what not. :wink:

Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer to play by the rules if it means these places get to stay open. Many got absolutely destroyed being forced to shut down. So I'm being good and doing what is asked. But it doesn't mean I have to take every precaution as gospel. I can still use some common sense, and play by the rules at the same time.



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