High school fall sports a go in Montana

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Clinton T
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Re: High school fall sports a go in Montana

Post by Clinton T » Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm

Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
I would have love to have been a fly on the wall in the MHSA meetings on reopening fall sports. I'm sure there was some lively debate! As a young(ish) and healthy educator I am happy to see they made this decision. These kids put in a ton of time training and lifting in the offseason. Not being able to play would be terrible for them. However, (also) as an educator I am scared about what this could do to our schools. I am deeply concerned about the physical and mental health of my students. I keep thinking to myself, "God, if one of my students dies from this crap because they were allowed to play a game..." Then I get thinking about the mental health of my students and staff if a teacher or student dies. I could go on with the what-ifs but I do know it would shake me to my core if I lost a student from something so preventable. Is the risk (potential death) worth the reward (memories, fun, and emotionally health)? I really don't know the answer to that because we don't have a lot of data on teenagers and the virus. When it's all said and done it could be that this virus wasn't particularly bad for adolescents. OR it could be that they are just as susceptible to infection and death as adults. Either way there are risks. Tough decisions. Glad I am not making them.



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The Butcher
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Re: High school fall sports a go in Montana

Post by The Butcher » Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:44 pm

Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
I would have love to have been a fly on the wall in the MHSA meetings on reopening fall sports. I'm sure there was some lively debate! As a young(ish) and healthy educator I am happy to see they made this decision. These kids put in a ton of time training and lifting in the offseason. Not being able to play would be terrible for them. However, (also) as an educator I am scared about what this could do to our schools. I am deeply concerned about the physical and mental health of my students. I keep thinking to myself, "God, if one of my students dies from this crap because they were allowed to play a game..." Then I get thinking about the mental health of my students and staff if a teacher or student dies. I could go on with the what-ifs but I do know it would shake me to my core if I lost a student from something so preventable. Is the risk (potential death) worth the reward (memories, fun, and emotionally health)? I really don't know the answer to that because we don't have a lot of data on teenagers and the virus. When it's all said and done it could be that this virus wasn't particularly bad for adolescents. OR it could be that they are just as susceptible to infection and death as adults. Either way there are risks. Tough decisions. Glad I am not making them.
Do you think about if a parent or grandparent of said athlete dies from this? Imagine the emotional trauma knowing you contracted the virus from a high school competition and someone you loved died from catching it from you. That would be significantly more emotionally damaging in my opinion.
Last edited by The Butcher on Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.



ilovethecats
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Re: High school fall sports a go in Montana

Post by ilovethecats » Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:55 pm

The Butcher wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:44 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
I would have love to have been a fly on the wall in the MHSA meetings on reopening fall sports. I'm sure there was some lively debate! As a young(ish) and healthy educator I am happy to see they made this decision. These kids put in a ton of time training and lifting in the offseason. Not being able to play would be terrible for them. However, (also) as an educator I am scared about what this could do to our schools. I am deeply concerned about the physical and mental health of my students. I keep thinking to myself, "God, if one of my students dies from this crap because they were allowed to play a game..." Then I get thinking about the mental health of my students and staff if a teacher or student dies. I could go on with the what-ifs but I do know it would shake me to my core if I lost a student from something so preventable. Is the risk (potential death) worth the reward (memories, fun, and emotionally health)? I really don't know the answer to that because we don't have a lot of data on teenagers and the virus. When it's all said and done it could be that this virus wasn't particularly bad for adolescents. OR it could be that they are just as susceptible to infection and death as adults. Either way there are risks. Tough decisions. Glad I am not making them.
Do you think about if a parent or grandparent of said athlete dies from this? Imagine the emotional trauma knowing you contracted the virus from a high school competition and someone you loved died from catching it from you. That is would be significantly more emotionally damaging in my opinion.
Would a kid feel better if grandpa died driving to the game? Or choking on a hotdog at the concession stand? Or fell down the bleachers?

I think if a kid loses a family member they’re sad no matter what. Sports are NEVER necessary. Neither is almost anything else. We gotta draw the line somewhere.



onceacat
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Re: High school fall sports a go in Montana

Post by onceacat » Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:43 pm

ilovethecats wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:55 pm
The Butcher wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:44 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
I would have love to have been a fly on the wall in the MHSA meetings on reopening fall sports. I'm sure there was some lively debate! As a young(ish) and healthy educator I am happy to see they made this decision. These kids put in a ton of time training and lifting in the offseason. Not being able to play would be terrible for them. However, (also) as an educator I am scared about what this could do to our schools. I am deeply concerned about the physical and mental health of my students. I keep thinking to myself, "God, if one of my students dies from this crap because they were allowed to play a game..." Then I get thinking about the mental health of my students and staff if a teacher or student dies. I could go on with the what-ifs but I do know it would shake me to my core if I lost a student from something so preventable. Is the risk (potential death) worth the reward (memories, fun, and emotionally health)? I really don't know the answer to that because we don't have a lot of data on teenagers and the virus. When it's all said and done it could be that this virus wasn't particularly bad for adolescents. OR it could be that they are just as susceptible to infection and death as adults. Either way there are risks. Tough decisions. Glad I am not making them.
Do you think about if a parent or grandparent of said athlete dies from this? Imagine the emotional trauma knowing you contracted the virus from a high school competition and someone you loved died from catching it from you. That is would be significantly more emotionally damaging in my opinion.
Would a kid feel better if grandpa died driving to the game? Or choking on a hotdog at the concession stand? Or fell down the bleachers?

I think if a kid loses a family member they’re sad no matter what. Sports are NEVER necessary. Neither is almost anything else. We gotta draw the line somewhere.
Except that 1% of drivers don’t die. 1% of people who eat don’t die from choking. 1% of people don’t fall down the bleachers, let alone 10% of spectators end up in the hospital, let alone die.

The death rate from Covid (1%) is roughly in line with the risk of dying from BASE jumping or being a meth addict.

It’s true, we gotta draw the line somewhere...i guess it just depends on how risky you want things to be.

(BTW both my kids will be devastated if they don’t get to compete in MHSA sanctioned activities AND we have at risk family members. We’ve probably got more skin in this game than 90% of posters on this board)
Last edited by onceacat on Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.



91catAlum
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Re: High school fall sports a go in Montana

Post by 91catAlum » Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:44 pm

The Butcher wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:44 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
I would have love to have been a fly on the wall in the MHSA meetings on reopening fall sports. I'm sure there was some lively debate! As a young(ish) and healthy educator I am happy to see they made this decision. These kids put in a ton of time training and lifting in the offseason. Not being able to play would be terrible for them. However, (also) as an educator I am scared about what this could do to our schools. I am deeply concerned about the physical and mental health of my students. I keep thinking to myself, "God, if one of my students dies from this crap because they were allowed to play a game..." Then I get thinking about the mental health of my students and staff if a teacher or student dies. I could go on with the what-ifs but I do know it would shake me to my core if I lost a student from something so preventable. Is the risk (potential death) worth the reward (memories, fun, and emotionally health)? I really don't know the answer to that because we don't have a lot of data on teenagers and the virus. When it's all said and done it could be that this virus wasn't particularly bad for adolescents. OR it could be that they are just as susceptible to infection and death as adults. Either way there are risks. Tough decisions. Glad I am not making them.
Do you think about if a parent or grandparent of said athlete dies from this? Imagine the emotional trauma knowing you contracted the virus from a high school competition and someone you loved died from catching it from you. That is would be significantly more emotionally damaging in my opinion.
Do you think about the teen suicide rate doubling or tripling when schools don't reopen and sports and all social activities are canceled?
There's a lot more to making these decisions than just covid numbers.


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onceacat
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Posts: 1767
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Re: High school fall sports a go in Montana

Post by onceacat » Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:48 pm

91catAlum wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:44 pm
The Butcher wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:44 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
I would have love to have been a fly on the wall in the MHSA meetings on reopening fall sports. I'm sure there was some lively debate! As a young(ish) and healthy educator I am happy to see they made this decision. These kids put in a ton of time training and lifting in the offseason. Not being able to play would be terrible for them. However, (also) as an educator I am scared about what this could do to our schools. I am deeply concerned about the physical and mental health of my students. I keep thinking to myself, "God, if one of my students dies from this crap because they were allowed to play a game..." Then I get thinking about the mental health of my students and staff if a teacher or student dies. I could go on with the what-ifs but I do know it would shake me to my core if I lost a student from something so preventable. Is the risk (potential death) worth the reward (memories, fun, and emotionally health)? I really don't know the answer to that because we don't have a lot of data on teenagers and the virus. When it's all said and done it could be that this virus wasn't particularly bad for adolescents. OR it could be that they are just as susceptible to infection and death as adults. Either way there are risks. Tough decisions. Glad I am not making them.
Do you think about if a parent or grandparent of said athlete dies from this? Imagine the emotional trauma knowing you contracted the virus from a high school competition and someone you loved died from catching it from you. That is would be significantly more emotionally damaging in my opinion.
Do you think about the teen suicide rate doubling or tripling when schools don't reopen and sports and all social activities are canceled?
There's a lot more to making these decisions than just covid numbers.
Of course that’s important. It’s also a red herring. Literally zero people have said that those things don’t matter.

No. One. Single. Person.



ilovethecats
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Re: High school fall sports a go in Montana

Post by ilovethecats » Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:57 pm

onceacat wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:48 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:44 pm
The Butcher wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:44 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
I would have love to have been a fly on the wall in the MHSA meetings on reopening fall sports. I'm sure there was some lively debate! As a young(ish) and healthy educator I am happy to see they made this decision. These kids put in a ton of time training and lifting in the offseason. Not being able to play would be terrible for them. However, (also) as an educator I am scared about what this could do to our schools. I am deeply concerned about the physical and mental health of my students. I keep thinking to myself, "God, if one of my students dies from this crap because they were allowed to play a game..." Then I get thinking about the mental health of my students and staff if a teacher or student dies. I could go on with the what-ifs but I do know it would shake me to my core if I lost a student from something so preventable. Is the risk (potential death) worth the reward (memories, fun, and emotionally health)? I really don't know the answer to that because we don't have a lot of data on teenagers and the virus. When it's all said and done it could be that this virus wasn't particularly bad for adolescents. OR it could be that they are just as susceptible to infection and death as adults. Either way there are risks. Tough decisions. Glad I am not making them.
Do you think about if a parent or grandparent of said athlete dies from this? Imagine the emotional trauma knowing you contracted the virus from a high school competition and someone you loved died from catching it from you. That is would be significantly more emotionally damaging in my opinion.
Do you think about the teen suicide rate doubling or tripling when schools don't reopen and sports and all social activities are canceled?
There's a lot more to making these decisions than just covid numbers.
Of course that’s important. It’s also a red herring. Literally zero people have said that those things don’t matter.

No. One. Single. Person.
Actions speak louder than words though. Of course no one would be dumb enough to come out and say that out loud. But when we do all the stuff we’re doing to save lives, knowing there will be repercussions such as unemployment, lack of education, increase in domestic violence, increase in homelessness, and an increase in suicide.....it certainly APPEARS that we’re saying the lives and livelihoods of those we’re trying to “save” are more important.



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The Butcher
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Posts: 1983
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Re: High school fall sports a go in Montana

Post by The Butcher » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:00 pm

91catAlum wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:44 pm
The Butcher wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:44 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
I would have love to have been a fly on the wall in the MHSA meetings on reopening fall sports. I'm sure there was some lively debate! As a young(ish) and healthy educator I am happy to see they made this decision. These kids put in a ton of time training and lifting in the offseason. Not being able to play would be terrible for them. However, (also) as an educator I am scared about what this could do to our schools. I am deeply concerned about the physical and mental health of my students. I keep thinking to myself, "God, if one of my students dies from this crap because they were allowed to play a game..." Then I get thinking about the mental health of my students and staff if a teacher or student dies. I could go on with the what-ifs but I do know it would shake me to my core if I lost a student from something so preventable. Is the risk (potential death) worth the reward (memories, fun, and emotionally health)? I really don't know the answer to that because we don't have a lot of data on teenagers and the virus. When it's all said and done it could be that this virus wasn't particularly bad for adolescents. OR it could be that they are just as susceptible to infection and death as adults. Either way there are risks. Tough decisions. Glad I am not making them.
Do you think about if a parent or grandparent of said athlete dies from this? Imagine the emotional trauma knowing you contracted the virus from a high school competition and someone you loved died from catching it from you. That is would be significantly more emotionally damaging in my opinion.
Do you think about the teen suicide rate doubling or tripling when schools don't reopen and sports and all social activities are canceled?
There's a lot more to making these decisions than just covid numbers.
Community mental illness likely has nothing to do with high school athletics.



TomCat88
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Re: High school fall sports a go in Montana

Post by TomCat88 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:11 pm

91catAlum wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:44 pm
The Butcher wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:44 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
I would have love to have been a fly on the wall in the MHSA meetings on reopening fall sports. I'm sure there was some lively debate! As a young(ish) and healthy educator I am happy to see they made this decision. These kids put in a ton of time training and lifting in the offseason. Not being able to play would be terrible for them. However, (also) as an educator I am scared about what this could do to our schools. I am deeply concerned about the physical and mental health of my students. I keep thinking to myself, "God, if one of my students dies from this crap because they were allowed to play a game..." Then I get thinking about the mental health of my students and staff if a teacher or student dies. I could go on with the what-ifs but I do know it would shake me to my core if I lost a student from something so preventable. Is the risk (potential death) worth the reward (memories, fun, and emotionally health)? I really don't know the answer to that because we don't have a lot of data on teenagers and the virus. When it's all said and done it could be that this virus wasn't particularly bad for adolescents. OR it could be that they are just as susceptible to infection and death as adults. Either way there are risks. Tough decisions. Glad I am not making them.
Do you think about if a parent or grandparent of said athlete dies from this? Imagine the emotional trauma knowing you contracted the virus from a high school competition and someone you loved died from catching it from you. That is would be significantly more emotionally damaging in my opinion.
Do you think about the teen suicide rate doubling or tripling when schools don't reopen and sports and all social activities are canceled?
There's a lot more to making these decisions than just covid numbers.
Where did you get those numbers? Scary stuff. About 2,000 teens (15-19) commit suicide per year. But I’ve heard some scary, yet untrue, stuff today. A coworker told me people are trying to legalize pedophilia. Someone else told me there’s been more deaths in America from car wrecks (38,000 annually) than Covid (150,000) this year.

I read that the projection for all suicides this year is a ten percent increase (5,000more than usual). It’s not likely that opening everything back up to eliminate those deaths would offset the lives lost (you’d have to think another 50,000??) due to Covid based on that. A tough decision no doubt. I think if the projection for each was equal that everyone would agree to open the country.


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onceacat
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Posts: 1767
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:35 pm

Re: High school fall sports a go in Montana

Post by onceacat » Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:24 pm

TomCat88 wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:11 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:44 pm
The Butcher wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:44 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
I would have love to have been a fly on the wall in the MHSA meetings on reopening fall sports. I'm sure there was some lively debate! As a young(ish) and healthy educator I am happy to see they made this decision. These kids put in a ton of time training and lifting in the offseason. Not being able to play would be terrible for them. However, (also) as an educator I am scared about what this could do to our schools. I am deeply concerned about the physical and mental health of my students. I keep thinking to myself, "God, if one of my students dies from this crap because they were allowed to play a game..." Then I get thinking about the mental health of my students and staff if a teacher or student dies. I could go on with the what-ifs but I do know it would shake me to my core if I lost a student from something so preventable. Is the risk (potential death) worth the reward (memories, fun, and emotionally health)? I really don't know the answer to that because we don't have a lot of data on teenagers and the virus. When it's all said and done it could be that this virus wasn't particularly bad for adolescents. OR it could be that they are just as susceptible to infection and death as adults. Either way there are risks. Tough decisions. Glad I am not making them.
Do you think about if a parent or grandparent of said athlete dies from this? Imagine the emotional trauma knowing you contracted the virus from a high school competition and someone you loved died from catching it from you. That is would be significantly more emotionally damaging in my opinion.
Do you think about the teen suicide rate doubling or tripling when schools don't reopen and sports and all social activities are canceled?
There's a lot more to making these decisions than just covid numbers.
Where did you get those numbers? Scary stuff. About 2,000 teens (15-19) commit suicide per year. But I’ve heard some scary, yet untrue, stuff today. A coworker told me people are trying to legalize pedophilia. Someone else told me there’s been more deaths in America from car wrecks (38,000 annually) than Covid (150,000) this year.

I read that the projection for all suicides this year is a ten percent increase (5,000more than usual). It’s not likely that opening everything back up to eliminate those deaths would offset the lives lost (you’d have to think another 50,000??) due to Covid based on that. A tough decision no doubt. I think if the projection for each was equal that everyone would agree to open the country.
I think the underlying issue is that some folks are looking for anywhere to blame other than the obvious:

Mental illness & suicides are up because theres a pandemic that our government has totally botched the response too.

Unemployment is through the roof, not because of government mandates, but because there is an uncontrolled pandemic that forces people to stay home until their test results come in, or because a restaurant or bar has been exposed, or because a nursing home gets infected.

Its really easy to test this out: Did places without lockdowns and school closures have the same rates of unemployment and economic collapse? Yep. South Dakota got hit just as hard as Montana, economically speaking, despite not issuing shutdowns. Sweden got hit just as hard as its neighbors. We have actual ongoing experiences.

I don't know about suicides, but we ought to be able to gather the same numbers. Did kids in the Dakotas do better in this than kids in Montana? I'd bet dollars to donuts theres no statistical difference.

The damage comes from the botched response to beating the pandemic. Not from taking reasonable steps to emulate success stories like Germany, Hong Kong, or South Korea.

So, yeah. Put it all in the blender and see what comes out. I'm pretty certain that covid deaths are going to vastly outstrip increased suicides.

(BTW, I think most Montana schools can probably safely open this fall, precisely BECAUSE we went through a shutdown and mask order early on in the pandemic. Theres no way Florida, Texas, or Arizona can do so.)



wapiti
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Posts: 415
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:04 am

Re: High school fall sports a go in Montana

Post by wapiti » Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:48 am

The Butcher wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:44 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
I would have love to have been a fly on the wall in the MHSA meetings on reopening fall sports. I'm sure there was some lively debate! As a young(ish) and healthy educator I am happy to see they made this decision. These kids put in a ton of time training and lifting in the offseason. Not being able to play would be terrible for them. However, (also) as an educator I am scared about what this could do to our schools. I am deeply concerned about the physical and mental health of my students. I keep thinking to myself, "God, if one of my students dies from this crap because they were allowed to play a game..." Then I get thinking about the mental health of my students and staff if a teacher or student dies. I could go on with the what-ifs but I do know it would shake me to my core if I lost a student from something so preventable. Is the risk (potential death) worth the reward (memories, fun, and emotionally health)? I really don't know the answer to that because we don't have a lot of data on teenagers and the virus. When it's all said and done it could be that this virus wasn't particularly bad for adolescents. OR it could be that they are just as susceptible to infection and death as adults. Either way there are risks. Tough decisions. Glad I am not making them.
Do you think about if a parent or grandparent of said athlete dies from this? Imagine the emotional trauma knowing you contracted the virus from a high school competition and someone you loved died from catching it from you. That would be significantly more emotionally damaging in my opinion.
How do you even get out of bed? Getting up and living life is risky. You had better stay in bed or you may die.



wapiti
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Posts: 415
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Re: High school fall sports a go in Montana

Post by wapiti » Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:51 am

onceacat wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:24 pm
TomCat88 wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:11 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:44 pm
The Butcher wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:44 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
I would have love to have been a fly on the wall in the MHSA meetings on reopening fall sports. I'm sure there was some lively debate! As a young(ish) and healthy educator I am happy to see they made this decision. These kids put in a ton of time training and lifting in the offseason. Not being able to play would be terrible for them. However, (also) as an educator I am scared about what this could do to our schools. I am deeply concerned about the physical and mental health of my students. I keep thinking to myself, "God, if one of my students dies from this crap because they were allowed to play a game..." Then I get thinking about the mental health of my students and staff if a teacher or student dies. I could go on with the what-ifs but I do know it would shake me to my core if I lost a student from something so preventable. Is the risk (potential death) worth the reward (memories, fun, and emotionally health)? I really don't know the answer to that because we don't have a lot of data on teenagers and the virus. When it's all said and done it could be that this virus wasn't particularly bad for adolescents. OR it could be that they are just as susceptible to infection and death as adults. Either way there are risks. Tough decisions. Glad I am not making them.
Do you think about if a parent or grandparent of said athlete dies from this? Imagine the emotional trauma knowing you contracted the virus from a high school competition and someone you loved died from catching it from you. That is would be significantly more emotionally damaging in my opinion.
Do you think about the teen suicide rate doubling or tripling when schools don't reopen and sports and all social activities are canceled?
There's a lot more to making these decisions than just covid numbers.
Where did you get those numbers? Scary stuff. About 2,000 teens (15-19) commit suicide per year. But I’ve heard some scary, yet untrue, stuff today. A coworker told me people are trying to legalize pedophilia. Someone else told me there’s been more deaths in America from car wrecks (38,000 annually) than Covid (150,000) this year.

I read that the projection for all suicides this year is a ten percent increase (5,000more than usual). It’s not likely that opening everything back up to eliminate those deaths would offset the lives lost (you’d have to think another 50,000??) due to Covid based on that. A tough decision no doubt. I think if the projection for each was equal that everyone would agree to open the country.
I think the underlying issue is that some folks are looking for anywhere to blame other than the obvious:

Mental illness & suicides are up because theres a pandemic that our government has totally botched the response too.

Unemployment is through the roof, not because of government mandates, but because there is an uncontrolled pandemic that forces people to stay home until their test results come in, or because a restaurant or bar has been exposed, or because a nursing home gets infected.

Its really easy to test this out: Did places without lockdowns and school closures have the same rates of unemployment and economic collapse? Yep. South Dakota got hit just as hard as Montana, economically speaking, despite not issuing shutdowns. Sweden got hit just as hard as its neighbors. We have actual ongoing experiences.

I don't know about suicides, but we ought to be able to gather the same numbers. Did kids in the Dakotas do better in this than kids in Montana? I'd bet dollars to donuts theres no statistical difference.

The damage comes from the botched response to beating the pandemic. Not from taking reasonable steps to emulate success stories like Germany, Hong Kong, or South Korea.

So, yeah. Put it all in the blender and see what comes out. I'm pretty certain that covid deaths are going to vastly outstrip increased suicides.

(BTW, I think most Montana schools can probably safely open this fall, precisely BECAUSE we went through a shutdown and mask order early on in the pandemic. Theres no way Florida, Texas, or Arizona can do so.)
Spot on, but the unemployment numbers are remaining in place because the government is now paying people and extra $600 to not work. For these people to go back to work may very well result in a lower income. The extra unemployment check needs to end so that these people will go find a job.



91catAlum
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Posts: 7129
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Re: High school fall sports a go in Montana

Post by 91catAlum » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:09 am

TomCat88 wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:11 pm
Where did you get those numbers? Scary stuff. About 2,000 teens (15-19) commit suicide per year. But I’ve heard some scary, yet untrue, stuff today. A coworker told me people are trying to legalize pedophilia. Someone else told me there’s been more deaths in America from car wrecks (38,000 annually) than Covid (150,000) this year.

I read that the projection for all suicides this year is a ten percent increase (5,000more than usual). It’s not likely that opening everything back up to eliminate those deaths would offset the lives lost (you’d have to think another 50,000??) due to Covid based on that. A tough decision no doubt. I think if the projection for each was equal that everyone would agree to open the country.
It was just a hypothetical, I have no idea what the actual numbers are (although I wouldn't be surprised at all if the suicide rate was double what it normally is). I was trying to make a point that we might be doing just as much if not more damage by cancelling kids' activities, sports, proms, graduations, and even keeping schools closed in some places. Not just educationally, but mentally and socially. I think we're getting deep enough into the shutdowns (over 4 months now) that these considerations are going to start getting very real, and not just for kids.

From what I've read, suicide attempts are up WAY more than the 10% you stated. Here's an exaple:
An ABC affiliate in California reports that doctors at John Muir Medical Center tell them they have seen more deaths by suicide than COVID-19 during the quarantine.

“The numbers are unprecedented,” said Dr. Michael deBoisblanc, referring to the spike in suicides.

"We've never seen numbers like this, in such a short period of time," deBoisblanc added. "I mean we've seen a year's worth of suicide attempts in the last four weeks."
https://fee.org/articles/a-years-worth- ... lockdowns/


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Re: High school fall sports a go in Montana

Post by BleedingBLue » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:15 am

Everyone who is saying you can't compare covid deaths to increased suicides etc is totally missing the point! Nobody is saying the numbers are going to even out. They are simply saying it's a crappy trade-off for trying (and miserably failing) to shut the country down to control the pandemic. They are unintended consequences that may be avoided going forward by continuing to go on as normal as possible. And it may lead to more covid death. But dying from a virus is a lot different than killing yourself because you lost your job, are a teen who used sports as an outlet for mental issues, and so on and so forth.



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luckyirishguy25
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Re: High school fall sports a go in Montana

Post by luckyirishguy25 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:36 pm

Here's a hypothetical question.

Your kid plays high school sports, they contract Covid from a packed HS gym because everyone was dying for something to do.
A. Your kid spends 0 days in the hospital minimal symptoms, but their best friend dies from Covid. Was it worth it?
B. Your kid spends a week in the hospital with a quick recovery, months/year later lung damage from covid is discovered and they can no longer play sports. Was it worth it?
C. Your kid spends a month in the hospital with damaged lungs that require them to be on oxygen for the rest of their life. Was it worth it?
D. Your kid spends 2 months in the hospital in and out of comas suffering and dies. Was it worth it?
E. Your kid gets sick but its nothing and they're healthy and strong, a week later they can't get out of bed or breathe properly. You take them to the hospital but they're are no beds in the ICU so they have to be admitted to a secondary facility were they die. The rest of your family contracts covid and 1 more family member dies. Was it worth it?



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The Butcher
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Re: High school fall sports a go in Montana

Post by The Butcher » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:43 pm

wapiti wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:48 am
The Butcher wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:44 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
I would have love to have been a fly on the wall in the MHSA meetings on reopening fall sports. I'm sure there was some lively debate! As a young(ish) and healthy educator I am happy to see they made this decision. These kids put in a ton of time training and lifting in the offseason. Not being able to play would be terrible for them. However, (also) as an educator I am scared about what this could do to our schools. I am deeply concerned about the physical and mental health of my students. I keep thinking to myself, "God, if one of my students dies from this crap because they were allowed to play a game..." Then I get thinking about the mental health of my students and staff if a teacher or student dies. I could go on with the what-ifs but I do know it would shake me to my core if I lost a student from something so preventable. Is the risk (potential death) worth the reward (memories, fun, and emotionally health)? I really don't know the answer to that because we don't have a lot of data on teenagers and the virus. When it's all said and done it could be that this virus wasn't particularly bad for adolescents. OR it could be that they are just as susceptible to infection and death as adults. Either way there are risks. Tough decisions. Glad I am not making them.
Do you think about if a parent or grandparent of said athlete dies from this? Imagine the emotional trauma knowing you contracted the virus from a high school competition and someone you loved died from catching it from you. That would be significantly more emotionally damaging in my opinion.
How do you even get out of bed? Getting up and living life is risky. You had better stay in bed or you may die.
Really? I get out of bed and take safety percussion to protect myself, my family, my neighbors, and everyone else that I come into contact with. I am not so selfish as to put my wants ahead of everyone else’s health and safety. I am sure many of those that think life needs to go back to “normal” do not take the same percussion as I do, and some could give a f*** about taking any percussion at all. I hope you get out of bed and take a moment to reflect on what is important to your community and not just you.



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Re: High school fall sports a go in Montana

Post by PapaG » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:47 pm

The Butcher wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:44 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
I would have love to have been a fly on the wall in the MHSA meetings on reopening fall sports. I'm sure there was some lively debate! As a young(ish) and healthy educator I am happy to see they made this decision. These kids put in a ton of time training and lifting in the offseason. Not being able to play would be terrible for them. However, (also) as an educator I am scared about what this could do to our schools. I am deeply concerned about the physical and mental health of my students. I keep thinking to myself, "God, if one of my students dies from this crap because they were allowed to play a game..." Then I get thinking about the mental health of my students and staff if a teacher or student dies. I could go on with the what-ifs but I do know it would shake me to my core if I lost a student from something so preventable. Is the risk (potential death) worth the reward (memories, fun, and emotionally health)? I really don't know the answer to that because we don't have a lot of data on teenagers and the virus. When it's all said and done it could be that this virus wasn't particularly bad for adolescents. OR it could be that they are just as susceptible to infection and death as adults. Either way there are risks. Tough decisions. Glad I am not making them.
Do you think about if a parent or grandparent of said athlete dies from this? Imagine the emotional trauma knowing you contracted the virus from a high school competition and someone you loved died from catching it from you. That would be significantly more emotionally damaging in my opinion.
Nobody is forcing you to leave your home. Stay inside, be afraid if you must, and let the millions still out of work, behind on bills, and damaging their credit due to forced shutdowns take their chances be it going to work or attending a football game. How it went from 2 weeks to flatten the curve to now 19 weeks in and nobody should get sick so keep it shut down shows how easily manipulated so many people are by what government and media tell them.


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Re: High school fall sports a go in Montana

Post by BleedingBLue » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:53 pm

luckyirishguy25 wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:36 pm
Here's a hypothetical question.

Your kid plays high school sports, they contract Covid from a packed HS gym because everyone was dying for something to do.
A. Your kid spends 0 days in the hospital minimal symptoms, but their best friend dies from Covid. Was it worth it?
B. Your kid spends a week in the hospital with a quick recovery, months/year later lung damage from covid is discovered and they can no longer play sports. Was it worth it?
C. Your kid spends a month in the hospital with damaged lungs that require them to be on oxygen for the rest of their life. Was it worth it?
D. Your kid spends 2 months in the hospital in and out of comas suffering and dies. Was it worth it?
E. Your kid gets sick but its nothing and they're healthy and strong, a week later they can't get out of bed or breathe properly. You take them to the hospital but they're are no beds in the ICU so they have to be admitted to a secondary facility were they die. The rest of your family contracts covid and 1 more family member dies. Was it worth it?
All very good questions and questions many are probably asking themselves. All of these things can always be turned around though. For example was it worth it not to put our kids on the field when your kid leaves a suicide note saying they didn't feel they had anything to live for without football? Was it worth it holding them off the field when, because of his suicide, your marriage suffered due to the grief and you got divorced?

Just to be clear I'm not saying it's right or wrong we're moving forward with HS sports. I'm just playing devil's advocate because the impact of the deaths on people, whether covid related or another reason related to the pandemic, aren't any different. The death of a loved one, friend, colleague or what have you, is difficult to accept no matter how it happens.



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Re: High school fall sports a go in Montana

Post by coloradocat » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:53 pm

The Butcher wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:43 pm
wapiti wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:48 am
The Butcher wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:44 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
Clinton T wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm
I would have love to have been a fly on the wall in the MHSA meetings on reopening fall sports. I'm sure there was some lively debate! As a young(ish) and healthy educator I am happy to see they made this decision. These kids put in a ton of time training and lifting in the offseason. Not being able to play would be terrible for them. However, (also) as an educator I am scared about what this could do to our schools. I am deeply concerned about the physical and mental health of my students. I keep thinking to myself, "God, if one of my students dies from this crap because they were allowed to play a game..." Then I get thinking about the mental health of my students and staff if a teacher or student dies. I could go on with the what-ifs but I do know it would shake me to my core if I lost a student from something so preventable. Is the risk (potential death) worth the reward (memories, fun, and emotionally health)? I really don't know the answer to that because we don't have a lot of data on teenagers and the virus. When it's all said and done it could be that this virus wasn't particularly bad for adolescents. OR it could be that they are just as susceptible to infection and death as adults. Either way there are risks. Tough decisions. Glad I am not making them.
Do you think about if a parent or grandparent of said athlete dies from this? Imagine the emotional trauma knowing you contracted the virus from a high school competition and someone you loved died from catching it from you. That would be significantly more emotionally damaging in my opinion.
How do you even get out of bed? Getting up and living life is risky. You had better stay in bed or you may die.
Really? I get out of bed and take safety percussion to protect myself, my family, my neighbors, and everyone else that I come into contact with. I am not so selfish as to put my wants ahead of everyone else’s health and safety. I am sure many of those that think life needs to go back to “normal” do not take the same percussion as I do, and some could give a f*** about taking any percussion at all. I hope you get out of bed and take a moment to reflect on what is important to your community and not just you.
What are we talking here? Snare drums? Cymbals? A tambourine? Seems like you could be taking a risk that you and your family develop hearing loss if you're banging on a drum first thing in the morning. #Don'ttreadonmybongos



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The Butcher
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Re: High school fall sports a go in Montana

Post by The Butcher » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:59 pm

coloradocat wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:53 pm
What are we talking here? Snare drums? Cymbals? A tambourine? Seems like you could be taking a risk that you and your family develop hearing loss if you're banging on a drum first thing in the morning. #Don'ttreadonmybongos
PapaG wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:47 pm
Nobody is forcing you to leave your home. Stay inside, be afraid if you must, and let the millions still out of work, behind on bills, and damaging their credit due to forced shutdowns take their chances be it going to work or attending a football game. How it went from 2 weeks to flatten the curve to now 19 weeks in and nobody should get sick so keep it shut down shows how easily manipulated so many people are by what government and media tell them.

Examples of people who do not care about safety percussions and only care about themselves. This is why we cannot get back to normal, selfishness and/or ignorance.



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