Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

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iaafan
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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by iaafan » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:35 pm

catatac wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:31 pm
bobcat99 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:10 pm
A cloth mask is about as effective in preventing diseases as a condom with a hole in it at preventing pregnancy.

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577

This study shows that cloth masks allow 97% of particles to pass through. To quote, "Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in increased risk of infection." Maybe do a little research before you say nobody knows how effect they are. Not hard to find.

Another fun quote! "However, as a precautionary measure, cloth masks should not be recommended for HCWs, particularly in high-risk situations, and guidelines need to be updated."

Maybe someday they'll have better masks, but for right now, a cloth mask is nothing more than a feel good measure that does little to nothing for individuals. It could even put them at further risk.
Thanks for the sanity 99. So 1AA - are you still of the mind set we should pass a law that people have to wear masks in public? Also, are you still planning on wearing a mask in public from here on out?
Yes, very much so, don't you? I would think everyone would be in favor of this. It isn't a political objective. I see as something similar to the seatbelt law, which I suppose some people don't support that, but a large majority does, I think. Yes, I absolutely plan on always wearing a mask in public when the situation calls for it. I wouldn't drive down a highway at 55+ mph without my seatbelt on, so why wouldn't I wear a facemask into a hospital or anywhere that I feel there may be someone around that is susceptible or during flu season or if I'm not feeling well. Mostly I will use my sick leave and stay home (quarantine myself) when I'm sick and when I go back to work I will wear a mask in order to prevent getting my co-workers sick.

There'll be times when I forget my mask or misplace, just like there are times when I begin driving without my seatbelt on due to forgetting or arrive at my destination without having worn it. That happens.

A mask may not save as many lives as a seatbelt, but I bet it saves a lot of people losing days of their lives from being sick, which is a worthy cause. A mask will save more sick days than a seatbelt. Driving down insurance costs in the process. I look forward to the day that they're made more comfortable and effective.

Hand sanitizer was already being used at grocery stores and healthcare facilities. Being placed near the entrance and people were willfully and eagerly using it. No one was criticizing you if you didn't and no one was criticizing you if you did. People respected each others wishes. I don't see people criticizing people when they get out of there car without a seatbelt on or with one on either. Even though it's the law.

Facemasks, seatbelts, hand sanitizer...simple things that we can all use to make the world a better place.



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by ilovethecats » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:18 pm

MSU01 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:01 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:30 pm
I am an MSU grad. Consider myself kind of smart I suppose.

I have been personally talked down to in two different public places for being selfish not wearing a mask.

My point isn’t telling people what to do. Though that’s hilarious as we’ve all been told “what to do” for months now.

My point is very simple. We’re told right now that wearing masks saves lives, correct? We’re not wearing them for our own protection, but to keep from infecting others? Is that still correct? We also know that if we never in our lives heard of this corona virus, that there are other viruses amongst us, is that correct? If I’m correct in all this so far, than we know that wearing masks all the time will always protect people and save lives right? Am I incorrect in any of those statements?

So I believe if you are a person like 1aa, who says he’ll always wear a mask now to save lives, I’ll respect that stance. He’s not just valuing current lives who may be susceptible to this virus, but all lives susceptible of ANY virus. I completely respect that.

What I don’t respect, is people who are suddenly so insistent on masks because they think it’s the right thing to do, but aren’t willing to always take that stance. Only right now when it is the “right thing to do”. However, when they feel the threat of the virus is tiny (where I currently am with it) then they are fine removing the masks, despite the fact that doing so will still put lives at risk.

I don’t see how this view is somehow crazy or puts my intelligence or education in jeopardy. It seems like common sense to me. :-k
I think you've proven to be an intelligent person, but your argument in this specific case is over the top and not logically sound. If you've been talked down to in public for not wearing a mask, then I'd say the people who did that were wrong to do so. We've largely been given the option to decide for ourselves whether or not to wear a mask, and we've also been given the option to patronize or not patronize the small number of business that are requiring masks. We should respect the decisions of others even if we've chosen the other option, as long as the person is behaving in a reasonable way (i.e. not coughing intentionally on someone or throwing a temper tantrum in the middle of Costco).

You are arguing against what you think has been an overreaction to the severity of COVID-19 by yourself overreacting just as severely in the other direction by saying that anyone choosing to wear a mask now should wear one permanently. Sure there are other viruses but they're all different, so we don't react to them in exactly the same way. COVID-19 in its current form won't be around forever and one-size-fits-all approaches are generally going to be shortsighted, over simplistic, and unrealistic - it's why many of us wear helmets when motorcycling or skiing or bicycling but not when we're walking or hiking, even though we could fall and hit our heads doing any of these activities, right? It's ok to take a middle ground and listen to the advice of experts who know a hell of a lot more about this topic than anyone on Bobcat Nation, and then also listen to the same experts when they say it's safe to change our behavior and go back to normal again.

Anyway, in going back and reading the last few pages of this thread I think I inadvertently wandered into something that largely involved you and another poster. So I'll just leave my two cents worth here and wander back out again!
I don’t deny it’s over the top. I think masks in general are over the top. But if the save lives now, they’ll always save lives. That fact is undeniable. So I don’t see how one could be so insistent on wearing them now, but don’t care about wearing them later. Lives are lives.

The helmet and seatbelt arguments don’t hold water because no one is being forced to wear those. It kind of proves my point. There’s no question they help save lives. Not just now, but forever. But people still make choices on when to wear them.

It’d be like being forced to wear seatbelts on the interstate because it’s so dangerous, but driving on a regular highway it was deemed not near as dangerous. Despite the fact that the deaths are similar on both interstates and highways.

Unless of course people are just buying onto the fear of this virus being so much more deadly than others, I can’t think of a good reason to be high and mighty wearing them now, but not caring about wearing them later when they’ll still save lives.



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by TomCat88 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:24 pm

ilovethecats wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:30 pm

I have been personally talked down to in two different public places for being selfish not wearing a mask.
Sorry to hear that. It goes both ways. I haven’t experienced it first hand, but I’ve heard stories. I work with a guy who you don’t dare say anything to about it. He’s constantly rolling his eyes and laughing at anyone wearing a mask. I see people staring down someone with a mask on. I don’t get it. People should have better things to do than get worked up about someone wearing a mask or not.

Weird (anecdotal) thing I’ve noticed is that no one in my family has been sick since mid-February. We almost always have someone sick at least once a month. So this whole mask, wash hands, six-feet thing might be working. :-k


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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by ilovethecats » Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:01 am

TomCat88 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:24 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:30 pm

I have been personally talked down to in two different public places for being selfish not wearing a mask.
Sorry to hear that. It goes both ways. I haven’t experienced it first hand, but I’ve heard stories. I work with a guy who you don’t dare say anything to about it. He’s constantly rolling his eyes and laughing at anyone wearing a mask. I see people staring down someone with a mask on. I don’t get it. People should have better things to do than get worked up about someone wearing a mask or not.

Weird (anecdotal) thing I’ve noticed is that no one in my family has been sick since mid-February. We almost always have someone sick at least once a month. So this whole mask, wash hands, six-feet thing might be working. :-k
Without a doubt it goes both ways. I too have seen and heard people belittling and mocking those wearing masks. That’s ridiculous as well in my opinion.

I think people who want to wear them should. I think those that don’t want to shouldn’t. I think businesses have every right to require employees to where them, and require customers to wear them. If the workers or customers hate that, they can find another place to work or shop.

I also have no doubt in my mind that washing hands and keeping distance from others helps avoid sickness. This has always been the case.

On another note, I’m fascinated to see what happens with the cases around the country with all of the gatherings and protests. Most cities have had thousands of people together every day for over a week. Seems like every state, even ours, has had a major protest with large groups.



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by CelticCat » Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:51 am

ilovethecats wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:18 pm
MSU01 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:01 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:30 pm
I am an MSU grad. Consider myself kind of smart I suppose.

I have been personally talked down to in two different public places for being selfish not wearing a mask.

My point isn’t telling people what to do. Though that’s hilarious as we’ve all been told “what to do” for months now.

My point is very simple. We’re told right now that wearing masks saves lives, correct? We’re not wearing them for our own protection, but to keep from infecting others? Is that still correct? We also know that if we never in our lives heard of this corona virus, that there are other viruses amongst us, is that correct? If I’m correct in all this so far, than we know that wearing masks all the time will always protect people and save lives right? Am I incorrect in any of those statements?

So I believe if you are a person like 1aa, who says he’ll always wear a mask now to save lives, I’ll respect that stance. He’s not just valuing current lives who may be susceptible to this virus, but all lives susceptible of ANY virus. I completely respect that.

What I don’t respect, is people who are suddenly so insistent on masks because they think it’s the right thing to do, but aren’t willing to always take that stance. Only right now when it is the “right thing to do”. However, when they feel the threat of the virus is tiny (where I currently am with it) then they are fine removing the masks, despite the fact that doing so will still put lives at risk.

I don’t see how this view is somehow crazy or puts my intelligence or education in jeopardy. It seems like common sense to me. :-k
I think you've proven to be an intelligent person, but your argument in this specific case is over the top and not logically sound. If you've been talked down to in public for not wearing a mask, then I'd say the people who did that were wrong to do so. We've largely been given the option to decide for ourselves whether or not to wear a mask, and we've also been given the option to patronize or not patronize the small number of business that are requiring masks. We should respect the decisions of others even if we've chosen the other option, as long as the person is behaving in a reasonable way (i.e. not coughing intentionally on someone or throwing a temper tantrum in the middle of Costco).

You are arguing against what you think has been an overreaction to the severity of COVID-19 by yourself overreacting just as severely in the other direction by saying that anyone choosing to wear a mask now should wear one permanently. Sure there are other viruses but they're all different, so we don't react to them in exactly the same way. COVID-19 in its current form won't be around forever and one-size-fits-all approaches are generally going to be shortsighted, over simplistic, and unrealistic - it's why many of us wear helmets when motorcycling or skiing or bicycling but not when we're walking or hiking, even though we could fall and hit our heads doing any of these activities, right? It's ok to take a middle ground and listen to the advice of experts who know a hell of a lot more about this topic than anyone on Bobcat Nation, and then also listen to the same experts when they say it's safe to change our behavior and go back to normal again.

Anyway, in going back and reading the last few pages of this thread I think I inadvertently wandered into something that largely involved you and another poster. So I'll just leave my two cents worth here and wander back out again!
I don’t deny it’s over the top. I think masks in general are over the top. But if the save lives now, they’ll always save lives. That fact is undeniable. So I don’t see how one could be so insistent on wearing them now, but don’t care about wearing them later. Lives are lives.

The helmet and seatbelt arguments don’t hold water because no one is being forced to wear those. It kind of proves my point. There’s no question they help save lives. Not just now, but forever. But people still make choices on when to wear them.

It’d be like being forced to wear seatbelts on the interstate because it’s so dangerous, but driving on a regular highway it was deemed not near as dangerous. Despite the fact that the deaths are similar on both interstates and highways.

Unless of course people are just buying onto the fear of this virus being so much more deadly than others, I can’t think of a good reason to be high and mighty wearing them now, but not caring about wearing them later when they’ll still save lives.

I can't think of any reason someone who medically can wear a mask would not do so, other than they simply don't like being told what to do.

Stop masquerading about how they aren't effective or even increase your risk, and just admit you think it's an inconvenience and you don't like being told what to do and we can end this discussion.

And I don't know what world you live in where you aren't "forced to wear a seatbelt", it's a ticket-able offense in all states except New Hampshire.


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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by catatac » Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:48 pm

iaafan wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:35 pm
catatac wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:31 pm
bobcat99 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:10 pm
A cloth mask is about as effective in preventing diseases as a condom with a hole in it at preventing pregnancy.

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577

This study shows that cloth masks allow 97% of particles to pass through. To quote, "Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in increased risk of infection." Maybe do a little research before you say nobody knows how effect they are. Not hard to find.

Another fun quote! "However, as a precautionary measure, cloth masks should not be recommended for HCWs, particularly in high-risk situations, and guidelines need to be updated."

Maybe someday they'll have better masks, but for right now, a cloth mask is nothing more than a feel good measure that does little to nothing for individuals. It could even put them at further risk.
Thanks for the sanity 99. So 1AA - are you still of the mind set we should pass a law that people have to wear masks in public? Also, are you still planning on wearing a mask in public from here on out?
Yes, very much so, don't you? I would think everyone would be in favor of this. It isn't a political objective. I see as something similar to the seatbelt law, which I suppose some people don't support that, but a large majority does, I think. Yes, I absolutely plan on always wearing a mask in public when the situation calls for it. I wouldn't drive down a highway at 55+ mph without my seatbelt on, so why wouldn't I wear a facemask into a hospital or anywhere that I feel there may be someone around that is susceptible or during flu season or if I'm not feeling well. Mostly I will use my sick leave and stay home (quarantine myself) when I'm sick and when I go back to work I will wear a mask in order to prevent getting my co-workers sick.

There'll be times when I forget my mask or misplace, just like there are times when I begin driving without my seatbelt on due to forgetting or arrive at my destination without having worn it. That happens.

A mask may not save as many lives as a seatbelt, but I bet it saves a lot of people losing days of their lives from being sick, which is a worthy cause. A mask will save more sick days than a seatbelt. Driving down insurance costs in the process. I look forward to the day that they're made more comfortable and effective.

Hand sanitizer was already being used at grocery stores and healthcare facilities. Being placed near the entrance and people were willfully and eagerly using it. No one was criticizing you if you didn't and no one was criticizing you if you did. People respected each others wishes. I don't see people criticizing people when they get out of there car without a seatbelt on or with one on either. Even though it's the law.

Facemasks, seatbelts, hand sanitizer...simple things that we can all use to make the world a better place.
No, absolutely I do not agree we should pass a law that requires everyone to wear face masks in public from here on out. I would have that same stance regardless of whether or not I believed wearing masks is effective at preventing the spread of Covid 19, which I do not.


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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by catatac » Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:55 pm

MSU01 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:01 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:30 pm
I am an MSU grad. Consider myself kind of smart I suppose.

I have been personally talked down to in two different public places for being selfish not wearing a mask.

My point isn’t telling people what to do. Though that’s hilarious as we’ve all been told “what to do” for months now.

My point is very simple. We’re told right now that wearing masks saves lives, correct? We’re not wearing them for our own protection, but to keep from infecting others? Is that still correct? We also know that if we never in our lives heard of this corona virus, that there are other viruses amongst us, is that correct? If I’m correct in all this so far, than we know that wearing masks all the time will always protect people and save lives right? Am I incorrect in any of those statements?

So I believe if you are a person like 1aa, who says he’ll always wear a mask now to save lives, I’ll respect that stance. He’s not just valuing current lives who may be susceptible to this virus, but all lives susceptible of ANY virus. I completely respect that.

What I don’t respect, is people who are suddenly so insistent on masks because they think it’s the right thing to do, but aren’t willing to always take that stance. Only right now when it is the “right thing to do”. However, when they feel the threat of the virus is tiny (where I currently am with it) then they are fine removing the masks, despite the fact that doing so will still put lives at risk.

I don’t see how this view is somehow crazy or puts my intelligence or education in jeopardy. It seems like common sense to me. :-k
I think you've proven to be an intelligent person, but your argument in this specific case is over the top and not logically sound. If you've been talked down to in public for not wearing a mask, then I'd say the people who did that were wrong to do so. We've largely been given the option to decide for ourselves whether or not to wear a mask, and we've also been given the option to patronize or not patronize the small number of business that are requiring masks. We should respect the decisions of others even if we've chosen the other option, as long as the person is behaving in a reasonable way (i.e. not coughing intentionally on someone or throwing a temper tantrum in the middle of Costco).

You are arguing against what you think has been an overreaction to the severity of COVID-19 by yourself overreacting just as severely in the other direction by saying that anyone choosing to wear a mask now should wear one permanently. Sure there are other viruses but they're all different, so we don't react to them in exactly the same way. COVID-19 in its current form won't be around forever and one-size-fits-all approaches are generally going to be shortsighted, over simplistic, and unrealistic - it's why many of us wear helmets when motorcycling or skiing or bicycling but not when we're walking or hiking, even though we could fall and hit our heads doing any of these activities, right? It's ok to take a middle ground and listen to the advice of experts who know a hell of a lot more about this topic than anyone on Bobcat Nation, and then also listen to the same experts when they say it's safe to change our behavior and go back to normal again.

Anyway, in going back and reading the last few pages of this thread I think I inadvertently wandered into something that largely involved you and another poster. So I'll just leave my two cents worth here and wander back out again!
But, there a lot of people that believe other viruses like the flu are actually just as, if not deadlier than Covid19. So I assume the CDC would recommend that people wear masks during flu season and if not, why don't they? If masks are effective at saving lives relative to Covid19, then they would have to be effective at saving lives relative to the flu correct? So back to ILTC's question - why aren't all the people that are wearing masks for Covid19 going to continue to wear them for all other viruses from here on out... or at a minimum during the known flu season??


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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by wbtfg » Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:10 pm

catatac wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:55 pm
MSU01 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:01 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:30 pm
I am an MSU grad. Consider myself kind of smart I suppose.

I have been personally talked down to in two different public places for being selfish not wearing a mask.

My point isn’t telling people what to do. Though that’s hilarious as we’ve all been told “what to do” for months now.

My point is very simple. We’re told right now that wearing masks saves lives, correct? We’re not wearing them for our own protection, but to keep from infecting others? Is that still correct? We also know that if we never in our lives heard of this corona virus, that there are other viruses amongst us, is that correct? If I’m correct in all this so far, than we know that wearing masks all the time will always protect people and save lives right? Am I incorrect in any of those statements?

So I believe if you are a person like 1aa, who says he’ll always wear a mask now to save lives, I’ll respect that stance. He’s not just valuing current lives who may be susceptible to this virus, but all lives susceptible of ANY virus. I completely respect that.

What I don’t respect, is people who are suddenly so insistent on masks because they think it’s the right thing to do, but aren’t willing to always take that stance. Only right now when it is the “right thing to do”. However, when they feel the threat of the virus is tiny (where I currently am with it) then they are fine removing the masks, despite the fact that doing so will still put lives at risk.

I don’t see how this view is somehow crazy or puts my intelligence or education in jeopardy. It seems like common sense to me. :-k
I think you've proven to be an intelligent person, but your argument in this specific case is over the top and not logically sound. If you've been talked down to in public for not wearing a mask, then I'd say the people who did that were wrong to do so. We've largely been given the option to decide for ourselves whether or not to wear a mask, and we've also been given the option to patronize or not patronize the small number of business that are requiring masks. We should respect the decisions of others even if we've chosen the other option, as long as the person is behaving in a reasonable way (i.e. not coughing intentionally on someone or throwing a temper tantrum in the middle of Costco).

You are arguing against what you think has been an overreaction to the severity of COVID-19 by yourself overreacting just as severely in the other direction by saying that anyone choosing to wear a mask now should wear one permanently. Sure there are other viruses but they're all different, so we don't react to them in exactly the same way. COVID-19 in its current form won't be around forever and one-size-fits-all approaches are generally going to be shortsighted, over simplistic, and unrealistic - it's why many of us wear helmets when motorcycling or skiing or bicycling but not when we're walking or hiking, even though we could fall and hit our heads doing any of these activities, right? It's ok to take a middle ground and listen to the advice of experts who know a hell of a lot more about this topic than anyone on Bobcat Nation, and then also listen to the same experts when they say it's safe to change our behavior and go back to normal again.

Anyway, in going back and reading the last few pages of this thread I think I inadvertently wandered into something that largely involved you and another poster. So I'll just leave my two cents worth here and wander back out again!
But, there a lot of people that believe other viruses like the flu are actually just as, if not deadlier than Covid19. So I assume the CDC would recommend that people wear masks during flu season and if not, why don't they? If masks are effective at saving lives relative to Covid19, then they would have to be effective at saving lives relative to the flu correct? So back to ILTC's question - why aren't all the people that are wearing masks for Covid19 going to continue to wear them for all other viruses from here on out... or at a minimum during the known flu season??
Because the CDC isn't "a lot of people"...the CDC is made up of doctors, epidemiologists, scientists and public health experts.



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by 91catAlum » Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:22 pm

There are pros and cons to a mask, its not just about "inconvenience".

https://www.sciencetimes.com/articles/2 ... iduals.htm

Harmful Effects of Wearing a Face Mask

Aside from the lack of scientific evidence pointing to requiring the use of a face mask for preventive measures, several studies have explored the dangers of wearing a face mask, especially for long periods.

These dangers include increased airway resistance, accumulation of carbon dioxide, hypoxia or inadequate oxygen supply, headaches, and even other life-threatening complications.

In a study conducted by the National Taiwan University Hospital, it has been found that the use of N-95 masks in healthcare workers has caused them to experience hypoxemia, the low level of oxygen in the blood, and hypercapnia, an elevation in the blood's carbon dioxide levels.

Another study reported findings of headache in health professionals using the same protective face mask. Similarly, pregnant women wearing N-95 masks were also found to have breathing difficulties associated with the use of the mask.

Researchers suggest that the benefits of using N95 masks to prevent contraction of infectious diseases should be weighed against possible respiratory consequences linked with extended use of N95 masks.

Newer evidence also reveals that the coronavirus may enter the brain in some cases. By wearing a mask, viruses released upon expiration will not be given a chance to escape and will further congregate in the nasal passages. This allows the virus to enter the olfactory nerves and travel further, eventually reaching the brain.

Dr. Blaylock says that one should not attack or criticize healthy people who do not wear masks, as studies point out that it may be a wise choice after all.


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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by catatac » Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:04 pm

wbtfg wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:10 pm
catatac wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:55 pm
MSU01 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:01 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:30 pm
I am an MSU grad. Consider myself kind of smart I suppose.

I have been personally talked down to in two different public places for being selfish not wearing a mask.

My point isn’t telling people what to do. Though that’s hilarious as we’ve all been told “what to do” for months now.

My point is very simple. We’re told right now that wearing masks saves lives, correct? We’re not wearing them for our own protection, but to keep from infecting others? Is that still correct? We also know that if we never in our lives heard of this corona virus, that there are other viruses amongst us, is that correct? If I’m correct in all this so far, than we know that wearing masks all the time will always protect people and save lives right? Am I incorrect in any of those statements?

So I believe if you are a person like 1aa, who says he’ll always wear a mask now to save lives, I’ll respect that stance. He’s not just valuing current lives who may be susceptible to this virus, but all lives susceptible of ANY virus. I completely respect that.

What I don’t respect, is people who are suddenly so insistent on masks because they think it’s the right thing to do, but aren’t willing to always take that stance. Only right now when it is the “right thing to do”. However, when they feel the threat of the virus is tiny (where I currently am with it) then they are fine removing the masks, despite the fact that doing so will still put lives at risk.

I don’t see how this view is somehow crazy or puts my intelligence or education in jeopardy. It seems like common sense to me. :-k
I think you've proven to be an intelligent person, but your argument in this specific case is over the top and not logically sound. If you've been talked down to in public for not wearing a mask, then I'd say the people who did that were wrong to do so. We've largely been given the option to decide for ourselves whether or not to wear a mask, and we've also been given the option to patronize or not patronize the small number of business that are requiring masks. We should respect the decisions of others even if we've chosen the other option, as long as the person is behaving in a reasonable way (i.e. not coughing intentionally on someone or throwing a temper tantrum in the middle of Costco).

You are arguing against what you think has been an overreaction to the severity of COVID-19 by yourself overreacting just as severely in the other direction by saying that anyone choosing to wear a mask now should wear one permanently. Sure there are other viruses but they're all different, so we don't react to them in exactly the same way. COVID-19 in its current form won't be around forever and one-size-fits-all approaches are generally going to be shortsighted, over simplistic, and unrealistic - it's why many of us wear helmets when motorcycling or skiing or bicycling but not when we're walking or hiking, even though we could fall and hit our heads doing any of these activities, right? It's ok to take a middle ground and listen to the advice of experts who know a hell of a lot more about this topic than anyone on Bobcat Nation, and then also listen to the same experts when they say it's safe to change our behavior and go back to normal again.

Anyway, in going back and reading the last few pages of this thread I think I inadvertently wandered into something that largely involved you and another poster. So I'll just leave my two cents worth here and wander back out again!
But, there a lot of people that believe other viruses like the flu are actually just as, if not deadlier than Covid19. So I assume the CDC would recommend that people wear masks during flu season and if not, why don't they? If masks are effective at saving lives relative to Covid19, then they would have to be effective at saving lives relative to the flu correct? So back to ILTC's question - why aren't all the people that are wearing masks for Covid19 going to continue to wear them for all other viruses from here on out... or at a minimum during the known flu season??
Because the CDC isn't "a lot of people"...the CDC is made up of doctors, epidemiologists, scientists and public health experts.
So the CDC doesn't think wearing masks helps during flu season? I'm not trying to be obstinate here, I honestly don't know. I suppose I should go out to the sight and see if they do or ever have recommended people wear cloth masks during flu season. Maybe the viruses are different enough where masks are more effective for Covid19 versus flu.


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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by MSU01 » Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:18 pm

catatac wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:55 pm
MSU01 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:01 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:30 pm
I am an MSU grad. Consider myself kind of smart I suppose.

I have been personally talked down to in two different public places for being selfish not wearing a mask.

My point isn’t telling people what to do. Though that’s hilarious as we’ve all been told “what to do” for months now.

My point is very simple. We’re told right now that wearing masks saves lives, correct? We’re not wearing them for our own protection, but to keep from infecting others? Is that still correct? We also know that if we never in our lives heard of this corona virus, that there are other viruses amongst us, is that correct? If I’m correct in all this so far, than we know that wearing masks all the time will always protect people and save lives right? Am I incorrect in any of those statements?

So I believe if you are a person like 1aa, who says he’ll always wear a mask now to save lives, I’ll respect that stance. He’s not just valuing current lives who may be susceptible to this virus, but all lives susceptible of ANY virus. I completely respect that.

What I don’t respect, is people who are suddenly so insistent on masks because they think it’s the right thing to do, but aren’t willing to always take that stance. Only right now when it is the “right thing to do”. However, when they feel the threat of the virus is tiny (where I currently am with it) then they are fine removing the masks, despite the fact that doing so will still put lives at risk.

I don’t see how this view is somehow crazy or puts my intelligence or education in jeopardy. It seems like common sense to me. :-k
I think you've proven to be an intelligent person, but your argument in this specific case is over the top and not logically sound. If you've been talked down to in public for not wearing a mask, then I'd say the people who did that were wrong to do so. We've largely been given the option to decide for ourselves whether or not to wear a mask, and we've also been given the option to patronize or not patronize the small number of business that are requiring masks. We should respect the decisions of others even if we've chosen the other option, as long as the person is behaving in a reasonable way (i.e. not coughing intentionally on someone or throwing a temper tantrum in the middle of Costco).

You are arguing against what you think has been an overreaction to the severity of COVID-19 by yourself overreacting just as severely in the other direction by saying that anyone choosing to wear a mask now should wear one permanently. Sure there are other viruses but they're all different, so we don't react to them in exactly the same way. COVID-19 in its current form won't be around forever and one-size-fits-all approaches are generally going to be shortsighted, over simplistic, and unrealistic - it's why many of us wear helmets when motorcycling or skiing or bicycling but not when we're walking or hiking, even though we could fall and hit our heads doing any of these activities, right? It's ok to take a middle ground and listen to the advice of experts who know a hell of a lot more about this topic than anyone on Bobcat Nation, and then also listen to the same experts when they say it's safe to change our behavior and go back to normal again.

Anyway, in going back and reading the last few pages of this thread I think I inadvertently wandered into something that largely involved you and another poster. So I'll just leave my two cents worth here and wander back out again!
But, there a lot of people that believe other viruses like the flu are actually just as, if not deadlier than Covid19. So I assume the CDC would recommend that people wear masks during flu season and if not, why don't they? If masks are effective at saving lives relative to Covid19, then they would have to be effective at saving lives relative to the flu correct? So back to ILTC's question - why aren't all the people that are wearing masks for Covid19 going to continue to wear them for all other viruses from here on out... or at a minimum during the known flu season??
Ask the CDC that question, not me. I'm wearing a mask because they've recommended I do so at the current time. They've never recommended wearing one for normal flu season - if that changes and they do recommend it, I'll probably continue to wear one. I don't give a ****** what "a lot of people" think because way too many people on both sides of the issue are searching out information or expressing opinions/hopes/hunches that fit their preconceived ideas, while dismissing or ignoring anything that doesn't fit their preconceptions. I do give a ****** what the CDC thinks and will follow their advice if it involves a very minor inconvenience such as wearing a mask in certain public areas.


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wbtfg
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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by wbtfg » Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:20 pm

catatac wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:04 pm
wbtfg wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:10 pm
catatac wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:55 pm
MSU01 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:01 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:30 pm
I am an MSU grad. Consider myself kind of smart I suppose.

I have been personally talked down to in two different public places for being selfish not wearing a mask.

My point isn’t telling people what to do. Though that’s hilarious as we’ve all been told “what to do” for months now.

My point is very simple. We’re told right now that wearing masks saves lives, correct? We’re not wearing them for our own protection, but to keep from infecting others? Is that still correct? We also know that if we never in our lives heard of this corona virus, that there are other viruses amongst us, is that correct? If I’m correct in all this so far, than we know that wearing masks all the time will always protect people and save lives right? Am I incorrect in any of those statements?

So I believe if you are a person like 1aa, who says he’ll always wear a mask now to save lives, I’ll respect that stance. He’s not just valuing current lives who may be susceptible to this virus, but all lives susceptible of ANY virus. I completely respect that.

What I don’t respect, is people who are suddenly so insistent on masks because they think it’s the right thing to do, but aren’t willing to always take that stance. Only right now when it is the “right thing to do”. However, when they feel the threat of the virus is tiny (where I currently am with it) then they are fine removing the masks, despite the fact that doing so will still put lives at risk.

I don’t see how this view is somehow crazy or puts my intelligence or education in jeopardy. It seems like common sense to me. :-k
I think you've proven to be an intelligent person, but your argument in this specific case is over the top and not logically sound. If you've been talked down to in public for not wearing a mask, then I'd say the people who did that were wrong to do so. We've largely been given the option to decide for ourselves whether or not to wear a mask, and we've also been given the option to patronize or not patronize the small number of business that are requiring masks. We should respect the decisions of others even if we've chosen the other option, as long as the person is behaving in a reasonable way (i.e. not coughing intentionally on someone or throwing a temper tantrum in the middle of Costco).

You are arguing against what you think has been an overreaction to the severity of COVID-19 by yourself overreacting just as severely in the other direction by saying that anyone choosing to wear a mask now should wear one permanently. Sure there are other viruses but they're all different, so we don't react to them in exactly the same way. COVID-19 in its current form won't be around forever and one-size-fits-all approaches are generally going to be shortsighted, over simplistic, and unrealistic - it's why many of us wear helmets when motorcycling or skiing or bicycling but not when we're walking or hiking, even though we could fall and hit our heads doing any of these activities, right? It's ok to take a middle ground and listen to the advice of experts who know a hell of a lot more about this topic than anyone on Bobcat Nation, and then also listen to the same experts when they say it's safe to change our behavior and go back to normal again.

Anyway, in going back and reading the last few pages of this thread I think I inadvertently wandered into something that largely involved you and another poster. So I'll just leave my two cents worth here and wander back out again!
But, there a lot of people that believe other viruses like the flu are actually just as, if not deadlier than Covid19. So I assume the CDC would recommend that people wear masks during flu season and if not, why don't they? If masks are effective at saving lives relative to Covid19, then they would have to be effective at saving lives relative to the flu correct? So back to ILTC's question - why aren't all the people that are wearing masks for Covid19 going to continue to wear them for all other viruses from here on out... or at a minimum during the known flu season??
Because the CDC isn't "a lot of people"...the CDC is made up of doctors, epidemiologists, scientists and public health experts.
So the CDC doesn't think wearing masks helps during flu season? I'm not trying to be obstinate here, I honestly don't know. I suppose I should go out to the sight and see if they do or ever have recommended people wear cloth masks during flu season. Maybe the viruses are different enough where masks are more effective for Covid19 versus flu.
I'm sure they probably do think it would help during the flu.



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by ilovethecats » Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:00 pm

CelticCat wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:51 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:18 pm
MSU01 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:01 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:30 pm
I am an MSU grad. Consider myself kind of smart I suppose.

I have been personally talked down to in two different public places for being selfish not wearing a mask.

My point isn’t telling people what to do. Though that’s hilarious as we’ve all been told “what to do” for months now.

My point is very simple. We’re told right now that wearing masks saves lives, correct? We’re not wearing them for our own protection, but to keep from infecting others? Is that still correct? We also know that if we never in our lives heard of this corona virus, that there are other viruses amongst us, is that correct? If I’m correct in all this so far, than we know that wearing masks all the time will always protect people and save lives right? Am I incorrect in any of those statements?

So I believe if you are a person like 1aa, who says he’ll always wear a mask now to save lives, I’ll respect that stance. He’s not just valuing current lives who may be susceptible to this virus, but all lives susceptible of ANY virus. I completely respect that.

What I don’t respect, is people who are suddenly so insistent on masks because they think it’s the right thing to do, but aren’t willing to always take that stance. Only right now when it is the “right thing to do”. However, when they feel the threat of the virus is tiny (where I currently am with it) then they are fine removing the masks, despite the fact that doing so will still put lives at risk.

I don’t see how this view is somehow crazy or puts my intelligence or education in jeopardy. It seems like common sense to me. :-k
I think you've proven to be an intelligent person, but your argument in this specific case is over the top and not logically sound. If you've been talked down to in public for not wearing a mask, then I'd say the people who did that were wrong to do so. We've largely been given the option to decide for ourselves whether or not to wear a mask, and we've also been given the option to patronize or not patronize the small number of business that are requiring masks. We should respect the decisions of others even if we've chosen the other option, as long as the person is behaving in a reasonable way (i.e. not coughing intentionally on someone or throwing a temper tantrum in the middle of Costco).

You are arguing against what you think has been an overreaction to the severity of COVID-19 by yourself overreacting just as severely in the other direction by saying that anyone choosing to wear a mask now should wear one permanently. Sure there are other viruses but they're all different, so we don't react to them in exactly the same way. COVID-19 in its current form won't be around forever and one-size-fits-all approaches are generally going to be shortsighted, over simplistic, and unrealistic - it's why many of us wear helmets when motorcycling or skiing or bicycling but not when we're walking or hiking, even though we could fall and hit our heads doing any of these activities, right? It's ok to take a middle ground and listen to the advice of experts who know a hell of a lot more about this topic than anyone on Bobcat Nation, and then also listen to the same experts when they say it's safe to change our behavior and go back to normal again.

Anyway, in going back and reading the last few pages of this thread I think I inadvertently wandered into something that largely involved you and another poster. So I'll just leave my two cents worth here and wander back out again!
I don’t deny it’s over the top. I think masks in general are over the top. But if the save lives now, they’ll always save lives. That fact is undeniable. So I don’t see how one could be so insistent on wearing them now, but don’t care about wearing them later. Lives are lives.

The helmet and seatbelt arguments don’t hold water because no one is being forced to wear those. It kind of proves my point. There’s no question they help save lives. Not just now, but forever. But people still make choices on when to wear them.

It’d be like being forced to wear seatbelts on the interstate because it’s so dangerous, but driving on a regular highway it was deemed not near as dangerous. Despite the fact that the deaths are similar on both interstates and highways.

Unless of course people are just buying onto the fear of this virus being so much more deadly than others, I can’t think of a good reason to be high and mighty wearing them now, but not caring about wearing them later when they’ll still save lives.

I can't think of any reason someone who medically can wear a mask would not do so, other than they simply don't like being told what to do.

Stop masquerading about how they aren't effective or even increase your risk, and just admit you think it's an inconvenience and you don't like being told what to do and we can end this discussion.

And I don't know what world you live in where you aren't "forced to wear a seatbelt", it's a ticket-able offense in all states except New Hampshire.
Did you mean to quote me? Because I have not one time ever suggested masks may not be effective or even increase my risk.

I am on record saying I think it’s a bad precedent to be told what to do to these extents. I think there needs to be way more proof of indisputable danger to lives before I think it’s appropriate to force people to stop working and going to school. I have never denied this. You may not agree, but it’s not a crazy idea.

I have other things to comment on because I assume you didn’t mean to quote me. If you did you’re really suggesting I feel ways I don’t feel..... :-k



91catAlum
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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by 91catAlum » Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:46 pm

The WHO changes its mind on the science.
Imagine shutting down the entire economy based on incorrect information, assuming this doesn't change...

"Asymptomatic transmission is very rare"

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asympto ... -says.html


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ilovethecats
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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by ilovethecats » Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:57 pm

91catAlum wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:46 pm
The WHO changes its mind on the science.
Imagine shutting down the entire economy based on incorrect information, assuming this doesn't change...

"Asymptomatic transmission is very rare"

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asympto ... -says.html
Wow. This would be a travesty if true. Though I’m guessing this is based on bad science and biased media like everything else that doesn’t paint this virus as the scariest thing ever. :wink:



91catAlum
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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by 91catAlum » Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:55 pm

ilovethecats wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:57 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:46 pm
The WHO changes its mind on the science.
Imagine shutting down the entire economy based on incorrect information, assuming this doesn't change...

"Asymptomatic transmission is very rare"

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asympto ... -says.html
Wow. This would be a travesty if true. Though I’m guessing this is based on bad science and biased media like everything else that doesn’t paint this virus as the scariest thing ever. :wink:
Haha ya. Too bad the summer is already canceled. No fairs, rodeos, concerts. But perhaps it's a step towards having a football season in the fall.


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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by ilovethecats » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:31 am

91catAlum wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:55 pm
ilovethecats wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:57 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:46 pm
The WHO changes its mind on the science.
Imagine shutting down the entire economy based on incorrect information, assuming this doesn't change...

"Asymptomatic transmission is very rare"

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asympto ... -says.html
Wow. This would be a travesty if true. Though I’m guessing this is based on bad science and biased media like everything else that doesn’t paint this virus as the scariest thing ever. :wink:
Haha ya. Too bad the summer is already canceled. No fairs, rodeos, concerts. But perhaps it's a step towards having a football season in the fall.
It will be. There will be football with fans. The more we learn about this thing, the more we see the overreaction.

I know it’s taboo to even mention the “regular flu” in this conversation. It’s selling this virus short from the severe danger it imposes. However, in light of the information you posted, it’s almost as if you feel ill, you should wash your hands and avoid people and you’re very unlikely to transmit the corona. I feel like that is very similar to what you should do with any other virus....

But that doesn’t drive the fear like the idea that perfectly healthy feeling people can have the virus and unknowingly pass it around to everyone you encounter. :lol:



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by iaafan » Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:50 am

91catAlum wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:46 pm
The WHO changes its mind on the science.
Imagine shutting down the entire economy based on incorrect information, assuming this doesn't change...

"Asymptomatic transmission is very rare"

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asympto ... -says.html
The entire economy was never shut down. The information was the best information available, not incorrect information. But I'm sure you'll post this exact thing in the future and iltc will chime in with you. \:D/



iaafan
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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by iaafan » Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:56 am

ilovethecats wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:57 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:46 pm
The WHO changes its mind on the science.
Imagine shutting down the entire economy based on incorrect information, assuming this doesn't change...

"Asymptomatic transmission is very rare"

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asympto ... -says.html
Wow. This would be a travesty if true. Though I’m guessing this is based on bad science and biased media like everything else that doesn’t paint this virus as the scariest thing ever. :wink:
I'm not sure why you think this virus is the scariest thing ever. I haven't seen that reaction from very many people. I don't consider wearing a mask to imply that someone is scared, nor do I see staying home if you're susceptible to mean you're unreasonably scared.

Something is deemed bad science when it's peer reviewed and isn't corroborated. Scientists go with whatever is the best science, but in many cases (when the best science isn't very strong) leave their opinions vague. "It may cause..." "It can be the reason why..." \:D/



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by ilovethecats » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:07 pm

iaafan wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:56 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:57 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:46 pm
The WHO changes its mind on the science.
Imagine shutting down the entire economy based on incorrect information, assuming this doesn't change...

"Asymptomatic transmission is very rare"

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asympto ... -says.html
Wow. This would be a travesty if true. Though I’m guessing this is based on bad science and biased media like everything else that doesn’t paint this virus as the scariest thing ever. :wink:
I'm not sure why you think this virus is the scariest thing ever. I haven't seen that reaction from very many people. I don't consider wearing a mask to imply that someone is scared, nor do I see staying home if you're susceptible to mean you're unreasonably scared.

Something is deemed bad science when it's peer reviewed and isn't corroborated. Scientists go with whatever is the best science, but in many cases (when the best science isn't very strong) leave their opinions vague. "It may cause..." "It can be the reason why..." \:D/
You don’t see businesses being forced to close, children being forced out of schools, predictions of millions of deaths, predictions of no sports or entertainment for a year or longer, businesses requiring masks, or anything the media has done a sign of fear? Seems to me it has been painted as a pretty scary virus. Based on these actions, I’d have to deem it the scariest virus of my lifetime. If it’s not, I don’t see how all these precautions we necessary.

Sorry it bothers you that I “chime in”. Lol. Might be worth noting you’ve “chimed in” too quite a bit.....you just have a different opinion than me. \:D/



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