Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

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wapiti
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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by wapiti » Sat May 02, 2020 9:09 am

catsrback76 wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 4:28 am
iaafan wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:37 pm
catatac wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:38 pm
Right ILTC. I'm still confused about we as a society aren't glued to the flu deaths that start rolling in every year and why we don't implement social distancing or perhaps business shut downs when those numbers start to spike? I've heard it's because we already know about the flu and there's a vaccine. True, but I always counter... who cares if we know about it? It still kills tens of thousands of people very year.
It isn't why we don't shut down for the flu, but why we do shut down for the corona. We shut down for corona, because we don't have a remedy for when you get it or a vaccine for before you do get it. Once we have that and assuming the numbers become similar to the flu, then we won't shut down for corona either. ​
Long story short, the CV 19 death toll has essentially in 1 month reached the annual death toll for the normal flu...WITH social distancing and a lockdown. To argue that they are the same is craziness!
There have been more deaths in Montana from the Flu this year then from Covid-19.



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catsrback76
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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by catsrback76 » Sat May 02, 2020 11:45 am

wapiti wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 9:09 am
catsrback76 wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 4:28 am
iaafan wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:37 pm
catatac wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:38 pm
Right ILTC. I'm still confused about we as a society aren't glued to the flu deaths that start rolling in every year and why we don't implement social distancing or perhaps business shut downs when those numbers start to spike? I've heard it's because we already know about the flu and there's a vaccine. True, but I always counter... who cares if we know about it? It still kills tens of thousands of people very year.
It isn't why we don't shut down for the flu, but why we do shut down for the corona. We shut down for corona, because we don't have a remedy for when you get it or a vaccine for before you do get it. Once we have that and assuming the numbers become similar to the flu, then we won't shut down for corona either. ​
Long story short, the CV 19 death toll has essentially in 1 month reached the annual death toll for the normal flu...WITH social distancing and a lockdown. To argue that they are the same is craziness!
There have been more deaths in Montana from the Flu this year then from Covid-19.
http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publicati ... fGGzLqz1uA

And we're basically only 2 months in on Covid!



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by BleedingBLue » Sat May 02, 2020 12:04 pm

Maybe we should stay shut down until their is a vaccine and let the treasury mint hundreds of 1 trillion dollar platinum coins backed by no real currency so everyone can get paid not to work until it's safe to live again.



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by LCH » Sat May 02, 2020 3:12 pm

No one is arguing we should stay shut down until a vaccine is ready. Some states, like ours, can cautiously reopen with sensible guidelines regarding social distancing because our new infection rate is low enough that contact tracing can work. Look no further than what is happening at meat packing plants to see what happens in a crowded environment without social distancing controls, like inner cities. You can argue that this is like the flu until you are blue in the face but that doesn't make it a fact. Without the steps that have been taken our healthcare system would collapse and trust me, all the hillbillies protesting in Michigan with their confederate flags and AR's would be the first in line at the hospital when they can't breath.

Regarding the trillions of dollars being printed with nothing backing them, what's new? This administration and congress have been running the largest non wartime deficits in history.



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by ilovethecats » Sat May 02, 2020 3:20 pm

LCH wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 3:12 pm
Look no further than what is happening at meat packing plants to see what happens in a crowded environment without social distancing controls, like inner cities.
Curious as to your thoughts then why major companies such as Walmart, Amazon, and Costco that employ millions of people and serve tens of millions every day one; decide its appropriate to be open if it’s so risky and two, must be hiding positive cases, hospitalizations and deaths.

If it’s so dangerous and deadly for the general public it simply must be far more dangerous for those in such dire situations?



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by LCH » Sat May 02, 2020 3:34 pm

Well, the workers at Amazon, Target, Fed Ex, Instacart, Wholefoods, etc. are striking today to demand safer working conditions. I'm a capitalist but I'm not naive enough to believe any big company will take workers well being over profits. I think most of these large retail outlets do take steps to promote some social distancing by limiting the numbers of customers in the store and are practicing enhanced sanitation protocols.



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by ilovethecats » Sat May 02, 2020 4:12 pm

LCH wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 3:34 pm
Well, the workers at Amazon, Target, Fed Ex, Instacart, Wholefoods, etc. are striking today to demand safer working conditions. I'm a capitalist but I'm not naive enough to believe any big company will take workers well being over profits. I think most of these large retail outlets do take steps to promote some social distancing by limiting the numbers of customers in the store and are practicing enhanced sanitation protocols.
I agree with all that. But If it is so obvious this thing is so deadly I just feel like places like these should be closed. I have been to both Costco and Walmart a bunch this last month and regardless of what they’re doing the places are always packed. Seems very dangerous to me if it is as deadly as some fear it is.

And it seems to me we should be hearing about way more of these people infected, hospitalized and even dying. I don’t hear of it at all to be honest so they’re either hiding it or it’s not happening.

The whole “essential business” thing seems a bit disingenuous to me anyway but it does seem to bring up a fishy point about the virus in general. Parks and playground equipment and mom and pop shops are danger zones but not Costco or Walmart? I’d love to hear the logic behind that and I’d expect far more outrage from those that believe this thing is so dangerous.



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by Bobcat4Ever » Sat May 02, 2020 4:38 pm

ilovethecats wrote:I have been to both Costco and Walmart a bunch this last month and regardless of what they’re doing the places are always packed.
This must be perhaps very different state by state? Stores like these here have one entrance open, one-way aisles, marked minimum distancing in the checkout lines, and one exit. They let one customer in only when another comes out, limiting the count to 25% of capacity. The employees are masked, customers are supposed to be so they don’t sneeze all over the radishes, checkout personnel are behind plexiglas and have masks and face shields. The stores are highly encouraging the use of touch-less curbside pickup. We just picked up groceries at Walmart, water softener pellets at ACE, and different groceries at Smith’s and never were close to another human. We tried to use sense when unloading. It was actually all very efficient and convenient.

The Gallup NM story is a cautionary tale of treating this thing with disdain.



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by LCH » Sat May 02, 2020 4:54 pm

Again, I'll just use the meatpacking case as an argument against wholesale shoulder to shoulder people. Certainly this is proof enough that the disease is highly virulent and dangerous. These plants are shut down because enough of their workforce became ill that they could not function. Trump can write executive orders that these people must work in conditions that are dangerous but I don't think he can force people to do it. Other examples are cruise lines and aircraft carriers. If you can't distance yourself from others, you have a high percentage chance of becoming ill.



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by TomCat88 » Sat May 02, 2020 5:00 pm

Bobcat4Ever wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 4:38 pm
ilovethecats wrote:I have been to both Costco and Walmart a bunch this last month and regardless of what they’re doing the places are always packed.
This must be perhaps very different state by state? Stores like these here have one entrance open, one-way aisles, marked minimum distancing in the checkout lines, and one exit. They let one customer in only when another comes out, limiting the count to 25% of capacity. The employees are masked, customers are supposed to be so they don’t sneeze all over the radishes, checkout personnel are behind plexiglas and have masks and face shields. The stores are highly encouraging the use of touch-less curbside pickup. We just picked up groceries at Walmart, water softener pellets at ACE, and different groceries at Smith’s and never were close to another human. We tried to use sense when unloading. It was actually all very efficient and convenient.

The Gallup NM story is a cautionary tale of treating this thing with disdain.
Montana (Helena), is much more liberal. Probably only half the shoppers wearing masks. We haven’t had a case in Helena in 10-15 days I don’t think. All the bars and restaurants are doing good, but their servers are not. One owner told me he’s doing about the same, but that’s because his overhead is down. A few places are re-modeling and making improvements.

Great idea though on the one way traffic in aisles. Should be a permanent thing. Lots of innovation coming from this. Be interesting to see if flu numbers go down in the future.


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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by KittieKop » Sat May 02, 2020 9:06 pm

TomCat88 wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 5:00 pm
Bobcat4Ever wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 4:38 pm
ilovethecats wrote:I have been to both Costco and Walmart a bunch this last month and regardless of what they’re doing the places are always packed.
This must be perhaps very different state by state? Stores like these here have one entrance open, one-way aisles, marked minimum distancing in the checkout lines, and one exit. They let one customer in only when another comes out, limiting the count to 25% of capacity. The employees are masked, customers are supposed to be so they don’t sneeze all over the radishes, checkout personnel are behind plexiglas and have masks and face shields. The stores are highly encouraging the use of touch-less curbside pickup. We just picked up groceries at Walmart, water softener pellets at ACE, and different groceries at Smith’s and never were close to another human. We tried to use sense when unloading. It was actually all very efficient and convenient.

The Gallup NM story is a cautionary tale of treating this thing with disdain.
Montana (Helena), is much more liberal. Probably only half the shoppers wearing masks. We haven’t had a case in Helena in 10-15 days I don’t think. All the bars and restaurants are doing good, but their servers are not. One owner told me he’s doing about the same, but that’s because his overhead is down. A few places are re-modeling and making improvements.

Great idea though on the one way traffic in aisles. Should be a permanent thing. Lots of innovation coming from this. Be interesting to see if flu numbers go down in the future.
It's been almost a month since a new case in Helena. Was April 8th or 9th. That time period includes the deadly Capitol rally two weeks ago.

Only two Montana cases in the last several days, at least one of them hasnt had any contact in the state. From here, but fell ill in another state and is recouping there as well. The Montana curve is as flat as the Great Plains.


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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by Montanabob » Sat May 02, 2020 10:07 pm

KittieKop wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 9:06 pm
TomCat88 wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 5:00 pm
Bobcat4Ever wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 4:38 pm
ilovethecats wrote:I have been to both Costco and Walmart a bunch this last month and regardless of what they’re doing the places are always packed.
This must be perhaps very different state by state? Stores like these here have one entrance open, one-way aisles, marked minimum distancing in the checkout lines, and one exit. They let one customer in only when another comes out, limiting the count to 25% of capacity. The employees are masked, customers are supposed to be so they don’t sneeze all over the radishes, checkout personnel are behind plexiglas and have masks and face shields. The stores are highly encouraging the use of touch-less curbside pickup. We just picked up groceries at Walmart, water softener pellets at ACE, and different groceries at Smith’s and never were close to another human. We tried to use sense when unloading. It was actually all very efficient and convenient.

The Gallup NM story is a cautionary tale of treating this thing with disdain.
Montana (Helena), is much more liberal. Probably only half the shoppers wearing masks. We haven’t had a case in Helena in 10-15 days I don’t think. All the bars and restaurants are doing good, but their servers are not. One owner told me he’s doing about the same, but that’s because his overhead is down. A few places are re-modeling and making improvements.

Great idea though on the one way traffic in aisles. Should be a permanent thing. Lots of innovation coming from this. Be interesting to see if flu numbers go down in the future.
It's been almost a month since a new case in Helena. Was April 8th or 9th. That time period includes the deadly Capitol rally two weeks ago.

Only two Montana cases in the last several days, at least one of them hasnt had any contact in the state. From here, but fell ill in another state and is recouping there as well. The Montana curve is as flat as the Great Plains.
Problem with this whole thread is that studies have already shown that 40-60% of people are asymptomatic. Others are never tested. I believe I had it in February in Albuquerque, my daughter in Los Angeles thinks she had it in January. Doctors refuse to test either of us. So stop flattening the curve and produce real results and stop calling all deaths by Corona 19. Car deaths are being called Covid 19 deaths.


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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by TomCat88 » Sun May 03, 2020 7:36 am

Here’s the best argument I’ve seen that minimizes Covid-19 deaths:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/richkarlga ... 19-deaths/

Just saying there’s been 65,000 deaths is misleading since most of those people didn’t have long to live. If the median age is 80, I’d say that’s equivalent to maybe 5,000 deaths or less.


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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by catsrback76 » Sun May 03, 2020 9:01 am

TomCat88 wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 7:36 am
Here’s the best argument I’ve seen that minimizes Covid-19 deaths:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/richkarlga ... 19-deaths/

Just saying there’s been 65,000 deaths is misleading since most of those people didn’t have long to live. If the median age is 80, I’d say that’s equivalent to maybe 5,000 deaths or less.
And the side benefit is that once those "old farts" tip over from CV19 their seats are available for the Young Whales who've always wanted seats in Bobcat stadium, so they could stand and rattle their shiny new cowbells! :coffee: 8) So, there's that!



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by PapaG » Sun May 03, 2020 4:56 pm

Well, I’m heading to Montana Thursday after tying up a few things here since things are open there. The Coronacowards can stay home. I hope it was all worth it for 16 deaths of old people in the entire state, but I’m coming to see friends and family and spend my money there for two weeks while my Oregon governor tells me I can’t work my job unless I sweep floors or clean toilets at a courthouse or stock shelves at WalMart overnight.


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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by wbtfg » Sun May 03, 2020 5:27 pm

PapaG wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 4:56 pm
Well, I’m heading to Montana Thursday after tying up a few things here since things are open there. The Coronacowards can stay home. I hope it was all worth it for 16 deaths of old people in the entire state, but I’m coming to see friends and family and spend my money there for two weeks while my Oregon governor tells me I can’t work my job unless I sweep floors or clean toilets at a courthouse or stock shelves at WalMart overnight.
Thanks for the notification.



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by bobcat99 » Sun May 03, 2020 5:33 pm

wbtfg wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 5:27 pm
PapaG wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 4:56 pm
Well, I’m heading to Montana Thursday after tying up a few things here since things are open there. The Coronacowards can stay home. I hope it was all worth it for 16 deaths of old people in the entire state, but I’m coming to see friends and family and spend my money there for two weeks while my Oregon governor tells me I can’t work my job unless I sweep floors or clean toilets at a courthouse or stock shelves at WalMart overnight.
Thanks for the notification.
Be thankful! Now we have notice that another asshole has come home to roost.



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by Cat_gld » Sun May 03, 2020 6:56 pm

PapaG wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 4:56 pm
Well, I’m heading to Montana Thursday after tying up a few things here since things are open there. The Coronacowards can stay home. I hope it was all worth it for 16 deaths of old people in the entire state, but I’m coming to see friends and family and spend my money there for two weeks while my Oregon governor tells me I can’t work my job unless I sweep floors or clean toilets at a courthouse or stock shelves at WalMart overnight.
From what I can gather from most of your posts, cleaning toilets and sweeping floors may be a couple of steps up for you.



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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by TomCat88 » Sun May 03, 2020 8:42 pm

TomCat88 wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 5:00 pm
Bobcat4Ever wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 4:38 pm
ilovethecats wrote:I have been to both Costco and Walmart a bunch this last month and regardless of what they’re doing the places are always packed.
This must be perhaps very different state by state? Stores like these here have one entrance open, one-way aisles, marked minimum distancing in the checkout lines, and one exit. They let one customer in only when another comes out, limiting the count to 25% of capacity. The employees are masked, customers are supposed to be so they don’t sneeze all over the radishes, checkout personnel are behind plexiglas and have masks and face shields. The stores are highly encouraging the use of touch-less curbside pickup. We just picked up groceries at Walmart, water softener pellets at ACE, and different groceries at Smith’s and never were close to another human. We tried to use sense when unloading. It was actually all very efficient and convenient.

The Gallup NM story is a cautionary tale of treating this thing with disdain.
Montana (Helena), is much more liberal. Probably only half the shoppers wearing masks. We haven’t had a case in Helena in 10-15 days I don’t think. All the bars and restaurants are doing good, but their servers are not. One owner told me he’s doing about the same, but that’s because his overhead is down. A few places are re-modeling and making improvements.

Great idea though on the one way traffic in aisles. Should be a permanent thing. Lots of innovation coming from this. Be interesting to see if flu numbers go down in the future.
I misspoke. The aisles are one-way here.


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Re: Alright, let's discuss the elephant in the room.

Post by ilovethecats » Mon May 04, 2020 9:26 am

wbtfg wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 5:27 pm
PapaG wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 4:56 pm
Well, I’m heading to Montana Thursday after tying up a few things here since things are open there. The Coronacowards can stay home. I hope it was all worth it for 16 deaths of old people in the entire state, but I’m coming to see friends and family and spend my money there for two weeks while my Oregon governor tells me I can’t work my job unless I sweep floors or clean toilets at a courthouse or stock shelves at WalMart overnight.
Thanks for the notification.
I actually enjoyed both of these posts! Pretty funny.



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