Next Year

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utucats
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Re: Next Year

Post by utucats » Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:25 pm

KittieKop wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:30 am
utucats wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 3:59 pm
KittieKop wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:53 pm
onceacat wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:35 am
utucats wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:34 am
onceacat wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:04 pm
BelgradeBobcat wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:47 pm
Weber, EWU, and montana all on the road next season. Gonna be tough to repeat what we did in 2019.
https://msubobcats.com/sports/football/schedule/2020
If Choate has (re)built what most posters think he has (I.e. a Top 4 program has hat is ready o take the next step to challenge NDSU and JMU) that shouldn’t be much of a problem.

If he hasn’t rebuilt hat, then yes, those road games are going to be really tough.

It should be a good measuring stick.
I don’t know about rebuilt? Unless you are taking from the 80s. We were swimming in waters that this program hasn’t been in for decades.
The Cats lost a total of 8 conference games over 5 seasons earlier this decade. If we keep the conference losses to between 1 and 2, I’d say we are back to swimming in the waters we are accustomed to.
Shhhhh. We don't talk about those dark days of the early 2010's. Such a waste, those three straight conference championships.
Nah, we can talk about those 3 straight shared conference championships. Can we also acknowledge the ass kicking we took against most every good program we faced? How about that #1 ranking that turned into getting dominated at home by the griz, did that happen? How about having McGhee and never getting to the semis?

Choate has done in 4 years what no staff since the 80s has accomplished. I know that admitting being wrong isn’t fun but when reality is staring you straight in the face.

Actually, maybe I’m wrong. I’m just a random Cats fan posting on social media. I wonder what the experts think? Simple test to prove me wrong. List a former Cats Head Coach and his current coaching title to see what those in the know think of our former coaches. Surely a back to back to back conference championship level coach is running a program somewhere.
You're way to easy to trigger there sport

Why is it the only way you're capable of celebrating the success that Choate and his staff are having - particularly this year- is by tearing down and denigrating past staffs and coaches? All. The. Time.

We are where we are today because of the steps taken FROM the early 1990's (sorry if you can't remember that far back). In part, each staff has had success because of things the prior left behind. Hysell, Kramer, Ash, Choate. Kramer doesn't have success if Cliff doesn't start turning the ship. Ash doesn't have success without the recruiting and QBC started under Kramer. Choate wouldn't be here or have the success without the stadium improvements, attendance explosion and turn around of the program in the community under Ash. And Choate is forging his own path here and will affect the next coach, whoever that is.

Your hatred is an ugly look. As is your almost creepy man-crush on Choate. You're unnaturally defensive about him, it's a little weird actually.

Tell me, if Choate "gets his ass kicked" the next, say, three years in the playoffs, or misses the playoffs for two years, is that when you turn on him, or what's your trigger for running him down? You obviously have a line in the sand. What if we go to the quarters or semis the next two seasons and, for the fourth straight year, get our asses handed to us by NDSU, you going to be on here complaining about not being able to "take the next step" and campaigning to throw Choate out of town? What's your standard for success, since most of the 2010's was an abject failure in your eyes?
Your post is an amazing way to start the offseason. I love how the tone changes when we all have to face the disappointment of months without Cat football. We could possibly carry these debates throughout the next few months and pass the time if you don’t become a scared KittieKop and run off or put me on ignore as you have in the past.

I’d counter your point on my man crush on Choate(I’ll admit it is creepy but not as bad as the one I have on TA) that you’ve had a certainly delusional man crush on Ash. You fail to acknowledge that he couldn’t win big games, never took us as far a Choate just did in year 4, and oversaw the complete destruction of what was a dominant defense(EWU=7 tds in first 7 possessions).

As far as what it will take for me to turn on Choate, I’d say same as what it took for me to turn on Ash. I supported Ash when our teams were improving and we were seeing progress within the program. When we started to slip I was patient and acknowledged that sometimes you have difficult years and expected him to right the ship. He did not. I have a friend that was against Ash much sooner than I was and I remember arguing with him in support of Ash. Eventually though, you have to acknowledge what is staring you straight in the face.

The only real difference between us KK is that I’ve proven that I’m able to admit when I’m wrong and you cling to your flawed logic no matter what the evidence suggests. When and if the day comes that the program is regressing and players are posting on Bobcat Nation that we will never win it all with our coach. When one of the greatest QBs in the history of the program turns on our staff(remember that time I suggested you ask McGhee his opinion on the Choate vs Ash debate, you obviously haven’t done that). When those things happen I’ll be disappointed that Choate has lost the locker room and I’ll begin lobbying for his dismissal.

I doubt this will work but in an attempt to have a meaningful debate on the issue, it would be nice to hear some counterpoint to the ones I’ve made. How about you explain Ash’s record against the Top 25? Or why his players were willing to throw him under the bus after the season? Explain his falling out with McGhee? Or his loyalty to Marshall and his awful defensive gameplans? Or better yet, stick with your time tested method of attacking me for essentially saying TOLD YOU SO. I really don’t mind reading those replies cause they make me laugh.

I replied to onceacat’s post only because I take exception with anyone suggesting that Choate has returned us to a level that anyone in the 90s(I remember them well), 2000s or twenty tens already had us at. EVERY single coach you mentioned, other than Choate, have one thing in common....they never ended the year in the top 4. I’d think it’s fair to acknowledge this staff’s accomplishing something like that.


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Re: Next Year

Post by Darth Yoda » Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:47 pm

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onceacat
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Re: Next Year

Post by onceacat » Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:07 am

utucats wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:25 pm
KittieKop wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:30 am
utucats wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 3:59 pm
KittieKop wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:53 pm
onceacat wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:35 am
utucats wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:34 am
onceacat wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:04 pm
BelgradeBobcat wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:47 pm
Weber, EWU, and montana all on the road next season. Gonna be tough to repeat what we did in 2019.
https://msubobcats.com/sports/football/schedule/2020
If Choate has (re)built what most posters think he has (I.e. a Top 4 program has hat is ready o take the next step to challenge NDSU and JMU) that shouldn’t be much of a problem.

If he hasn’t rebuilt hat, then yes, those road games are going to be really tough.

It should be a good measuring stick.
I don’t know about rebuilt? Unless you are taking from the 80s. We were swimming in waters that this program hasn’t been in for decades.
The Cats lost a total of 8 conference games over 5 seasons earlier this decade. If we keep the conference losses to between 1 and 2, I’d say we are back to swimming in the waters we are accustomed to.
Shhhhh. We don't talk about those dark days of the early 2010's. Such a waste, those three straight conference championships.
Nah, we can talk about those 3 straight shared conference championships. Can we also acknowledge the ass kicking we took against most every good program we faced? How about that #1 ranking that turned into getting dominated at home by the griz, did that happen? How about having McGhee and never getting to the semis?

Choate has done in 4 years what no staff since the 80s has accomplished. I know that admitting being wrong isn’t fun but when reality is staring you straight in the face.

Actually, maybe I’m wrong. I’m just a random Cats fan posting on social media. I wonder what the experts think? Simple test to prove me wrong. List a former Cats Head Coach and his current coaching title to see what those in the know think of our former coaches. Surely a back to back to back conference championship level coach is running a program somewhere.
You're way to easy to trigger there sport

Why is it the only way you're capable of celebrating the success that Choate and his staff are having - particularly this year- is by tearing down and denigrating past staffs and coaches? All. The. Time.

We are where we are today because of the steps taken FROM the early 1990's (sorry if you can't remember that far back). In part, each staff has had success because of things the prior left behind. Hysell, Kramer, Ash, Choate. Kramer doesn't have success if Cliff doesn't start turning the ship. Ash doesn't have success without the recruiting and QBC started under Kramer. Choate wouldn't be here or have the success without the stadium improvements, attendance explosion and turn around of the program in the community under Ash. And Choate is forging his own path here and will affect the next coach, whoever that is.

Your hatred is an ugly look. As is your almost creepy man-crush on Choate. You're unnaturally defensive about him, it's a little weird actually.

Tell me, if Choate "gets his ass kicked" the next, say, three years in the playoffs, or misses the playoffs for two years, is that when you turn on him, or what's your trigger for running him down? You obviously have a line in the sand. What if we go to the quarters or semis the next two seasons and, for the fourth straight year, get our asses handed to us by NDSU, you going to be on here complaining about not being able to "take the next step" and campaigning to throw Choate out of town? What's your standard for success, since most of the 2010's was an abject failure in your eyes?
Your post is an amazing way to start the offseason. I love how the tone changes when we all have to face the disappointment of months without Cat football. We could possibly carry these debates throughout the next few months and pass the time if you don’t become a scared KittieKop and run off or put me on ignore as you have in the past.

I’d counter your point on my man crush on Choate(I’ll admit it is creepy but not as bad as the one I have on TA) that you’ve had a certainly delusional man crush on Ash. You fail to acknowledge that he couldn’t win big games, never took us as far a Choate just did in year 4, and oversaw the complete destruction of what was a dominant defense(EWU=7 tds in first 7 possessions).

As far as what it will take for me to turn on Choate, I’d say same as what it took for me to turn on Ash. I supported Ash when our teams were improving and we were seeing progress within the program. When we started to slip I was patient and acknowledged that sometimes you have difficult years and expected him to right the ship. He did not. I have a friend that was against Ash much sooner than I was and I remember arguing with him in support of Ash. Eventually though, you have to acknowledge what is staring you straight in the face.

The only real difference between us KK is that I’ve proven that I’m able to admit when I’m wrong and you cling to your flawed logic no matter what the evidence suggests. When and if the day comes that the program is regressing and players are posting on Bobcat Nation that we will never win it all with our coach. When one of the greatest QBs in the history of the program turns on our staff(remember that time I suggested you ask McGhee his opinion on the Choate vs Ash debate, you obviously haven’t done that). When those things happen I’ll be disappointed that Choate has lost the locker room and I’ll begin lobbying for his dismissal.

I doubt this will work but in an attempt to have a meaningful debate on the issue, it would be nice to hear some counterpoint to the ones I’ve made. How about you explain Ash’s record against the Top 25? Or why his players were willing to throw him under the bus after the season? Explain his falling out with McGhee? Or his loyalty to Marshall and his awful defensive gameplans? Or better yet, stick with your time tested method of attacking me for essentially saying TOLD YOU SO. I really don’t mind reading those replies cause they make me laugh.

I replied to onceacat’s post only because I take exception with anyone suggesting that Choate has returned us to a level that anyone in the 90s(I remember them well), 2000s or twenty tens already had us at. EVERY single coach you mentioned, other than Choate, have one thing in common....they never ended the year in the top 4. I’d think it’s fair to acknowledge this staff’s accomplishing something like that.
In 2010 (the previous coach's 4th season) the Cats tied for a conference championship and had big road wins at #9 EWU (30-17) and a close win at #11 UM (21-16) They finished the year with 1 FCS loss (at NAU, and it was a doozy...something like 30 points). Cats finished the season at #4 in the polls and had a late season meltdown when #25 NDSU came to town.

Compare that to Choate's 4th season: 4th in the conference with 2 FCS losses, both to unranked teams (although Sac clearly should have been ranked). Four home wins against ranked teams (#12 SEMO, # 25 Albany, and #18 APSU...and of course, the all time smackdown of the #3 Griz) before getting crushed on the road against #1 NDSU.

I'd say those two are pretty comparable...the 2009 team has the tough wins on the road and the conf championship, and the 2019 team has the big Griz win and the playoff wins. Nod goes to the 2019 team, but its really close.

I compared year 3 as well. the 2008 team went 7-5 with 2 FBS losses, and probably would have made the playoffs if the field was 24 like it is now. The 2018 team was 0-1 against ranked teams, but finished 3rd in the BSC

The 2018 team went 7-4 in the regular season and lucked into the playoffs when several higher ranked teams lost the final weekend. That team went 2-4 against the top 25. Losses to #3 SDSU, # 7 Weber, and #5 EWU (also a loss to unranked Idaho State). Had a win against #25 UM, and that win bumped UIW up to #24. Got totally destroyed by #1 NDSU.

Again, I'd give the nod to the 2018 based on the murderers row schedule it faced. But those are two pretty close seasons.

By my count, in seasons 3 & 4, Ash was 2-2 against the top 25. Choate was 6-5 (with 3 of those wins coming against #24 and #25 teams). Again, nod to Choate, but not by a big margin

My point isn't to belabor the Choate vs Ash argument you seem so intent on making (I think it was a really good move to fire Ash-he had clearly lost the vim to be a great coach). If Choate is an A+ coach, then Ash was an A. (In all reality, Ash was probably a B+ coach, which would make Choate an A-)

The point is simply that Choate is bringing back the 'golden days' of the early 2010s...when we were a 50-50 team against the Top 25...when we competed for Top 4 seeds in the playoffs...when we competed for conference championships. Plus, Choate's 4-0 record against the Griz is something special.

But don't pretend we've never been here before. No, Ash never got us to a Top 4 finish at years end...the best he did was #5. Not exactly "uncharted waters".



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Re: Next Year

Post by 77matcat » Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:50 pm

Would it be fair to say Ash started with a much better Kramer team and really didn’t need to rebuild???



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Re: Next Year

Post by KittieKop » Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:27 pm

77matcat wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:50 pm
Would it be fair to say Ash started with a much better Kramer team and really didn’t need to rebuild???
Whatever argument you want to have on that point, he also started out under a public relations cloud, APR problems and NCAA sanctions.


"It was like a coordinated effort by the Missoulian and the police to bring UM Football program down..." eGriz 11/30/12

Now where did I leave my tinfoil hat?

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Re: Next Year

Post by VimSince03 » Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:31 pm

KittieKop wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:27 pm
77matcat wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:50 pm
Would it be fair to say Ash started with a much better Kramer team and really didn’t need to rebuild???
Whatever argument you want to have on that point, he also started out under a public relations cloud, APR problems and NCAA sanctions.
He basically had to rebuild the out-of-state recruiting connections MSU had.


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Re: Next Year

Post by TomCat88 » Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:14 pm

onceacat wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:07 am
utucats wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:25 pm
KittieKop wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:30 am
utucats wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 3:59 pm
KittieKop wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:53 pm
onceacat wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:35 am
utucats wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:34 am
onceacat wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:04 pm
BelgradeBobcat wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:47 pm
Weber, EWU, and montana all on the road next season. Gonna be tough to repeat what we did in 2019.
https://msubobcats.com/sports/football/schedule/2020
If Choate has (re)built what most posters think he has (I.e. a Top 4 program has hat is ready o take the next step to challenge NDSU and JMU) that shouldn’t be much of a problem.

If he hasn’t rebuilt hat, then yes, those road games are going to be really tough.

It should be a good measuring stick.
I don’t know about rebuilt? Unless you are taking from the 80s. We were swimming in waters that this program hasn’t been in for decades.
The Cats lost a total of 8 conference games over 5 seasons earlier this decade. If we keep the conference losses to between 1 and 2, I’d say we are back to swimming in the waters we are accustomed to.
Shhhhh. We don't talk about those dark days of the early 2010's. Such a waste, those three straight conference championships.
Nah, we can talk about those 3 straight shared conference championships. Can we also acknowledge the ass kicking we took against most every good program we faced? How about that #1 ranking that turned into getting dominated at home by the griz, did that happen? How about having McGhee and never getting to the semis?

Choate has done in 4 years what no staff since the 80s has accomplished. I know that admitting being wrong isn’t fun but when reality is staring you straight in the face.

Actually, maybe I’m wrong. I’m just a random Cats fan posting on social media. I wonder what the experts think? Simple test to prove me wrong. List a former Cats Head Coach and his current coaching title to see what those in the know think of our former coaches. Surely a back to back to back conference championship level coach is running a program somewhere.
You're way to easy to trigger there sport

Why is it the only way you're capable of celebrating the success that Choate and his staff are having - particularly this year- is by tearing down and denigrating past staffs and coaches? All. The. Time.

We are where we are today because of the steps taken FROM the early 1990's (sorry if you can't remember that far back). In part, each staff has had success because of things the prior left behind. Hysell, Kramer, Ash, Choate. Kramer doesn't have success if Cliff doesn't start turning the ship. Ash doesn't have success without the recruiting and QBC started under Kramer. Choate wouldn't be here or have the success without the stadium improvements, attendance explosion and turn around of the program in the community under Ash. And Choate is forging his own path here and will affect the next coach, whoever that is.

Your hatred is an ugly look. As is your almost creepy man-crush on Choate. You're unnaturally defensive about him, it's a little weird actually.

Tell me, if Choate "gets his ass kicked" the next, say, three years in the playoffs, or misses the playoffs for two years, is that when you turn on him, or what's your trigger for running him down? You obviously have a line in the sand. What if we go to the quarters or semis the next two seasons and, for the fourth straight year, get our asses handed to us by NDSU, you going to be on here complaining about not being able to "take the next step" and campaigning to throw Choate out of town? What's your standard for success, since most of the 2010's was an abject failure in your eyes?
Your post is an amazing way to start the offseason. I love how the tone changes when we all have to face the disappointment of months without Cat football. We could possibly carry these debates throughout the next few months and pass the time if you don’t become a scared KittieKop and run off or put me on ignore as you have in the past.

I’d counter your point on my man crush on Choate(I’ll admit it is creepy but not as bad as the one I have on TA) that you’ve had a certainly delusional man crush on Ash. You fail to acknowledge that he couldn’t win big games, never took us as far a Choate just did in year 4, and oversaw the complete destruction of what was a dominant defense(EWU=7 tds in first 7 possessions).

As far as what it will take for me to turn on Choate, I’d say same as what it took for me to turn on Ash. I supported Ash when our teams were improving and we were seeing progress within the program. When we started to slip I was patient and acknowledged that sometimes you have difficult years and expected him to right the ship. He did not. I have a friend that was against Ash much sooner than I was and I remember arguing with him in support of Ash. Eventually though, you have to acknowledge what is staring you straight in the face.

The only real difference between us KK is that I’ve proven that I’m able to admit when I’m wrong and you cling to your flawed logic no matter what the evidence suggests. When and if the day comes that the program is regressing and players are posting on Bobcat Nation that we will never win it all with our coach. When one of the greatest QBs in the history of the program turns on our staff(remember that time I suggested you ask McGhee his opinion on the Choate vs Ash debate, you obviously haven’t done that). When those things happen I’ll be disappointed that Choate has lost the locker room and I’ll begin lobbying for his dismissal.

I doubt this will work but in an attempt to have a meaningful debate on the issue, it would be nice to hear some counterpoint to the ones I’ve made. How about you explain Ash’s record against the Top 25? Or why his players were willing to throw him under the bus after the season? Explain his falling out with McGhee? Or his loyalty to Marshall and his awful defensive gameplans? Or better yet, stick with your time tested method of attacking me for essentially saying TOLD YOU SO. I really don’t mind reading those replies cause they make me laugh.

I replied to onceacat’s post only because I take exception with anyone suggesting that Choate has returned us to a level that anyone in the 90s(I remember them well), 2000s or twenty tens already had us at. EVERY single coach you mentioned, other than Choate, have one thing in common....they never ended the year in the top 4. I’d think it’s fair to acknowledge this staff’s accomplishing something like that.
In 2010 (the previous coach's 4th season) the Cats tied for a conference championship and had big road wins at #9 EWU (30-17) and a close win at #11 UM (21-16) They finished the year with 1 FCS loss (at NAU, and it was a doozy...something like 30 points). Cats finished the season at #4 in the polls and had a late season meltdown when #25 NDSU came to town.

Compare that to Choate's 4th season: 4th in the conference with 2 FCS losses, both to unranked teams (although Sac clearly should have been ranked). Four home wins against ranked teams (#12 SEMO, # 25 Albany, and #18 APSU...and of course, the all time smackdown of the #3 Griz) before getting crushed on the road against #1 NDSU.

I'd say those two are pretty comparable...the 2009 team has the tough wins on the road and the conf championship, and the 2019 team has the big Griz win and the playoff wins. Nod goes to the 2019 team, but its really close.

I compared year 3 as well. the 2008 team went 7-5 with 2 FBS losses, and probably would have made the playoffs if the field was 24 like it is now. The 2018 team was 0-1 against ranked teams, but finished 3rd in the BSC

The 2018 team went 7-4 in the regular season and lucked into the playoffs when several higher ranked teams lost the final weekend. That team went 2-4 against the top 25. Losses to #3 SDSU, # 7 Weber, and #5 EWU (also a loss to unranked Idaho State). Had a win against #25 UM, and that win bumped UIW up to #24. Got totally destroyed by #1 NDSU.

Again, I'd give the nod to the 2018 based on the murderers row schedule it faced. But those are two pretty close seasons.

By my count, in seasons 3 & 4, Ash was 2-2 against the top 25. Choate was 6-5 (with 3 of those wins coming against #24 and #25 teams). Again, nod to Choate, but not by a big margin

My point isn't to belabor the Choate vs Ash argument you seem so intent on making (I think it was a really good move to fire Ash-he had clearly lost the vim to be a great coach). If Choate is an A+ coach, then Ash was an A. (In all reality, Ash was probably a B+ coach, which would make Choate an A-)

The point is simply that Choate is bringing back the 'golden days' of the early 2010s...when we were a 50-50 team against the Top 25...when we competed for Top 4 seeds in the playoffs...when we competed for conference championships. Plus, Choate's 4-0 record against the Griz is something special.

But don't pretend we've never been here before. No, Ash never got us to a Top 4 finish at years end...the best he did was #5. Not exactly "uncharted waters".
This post is riddled with incorrect information.
1) MSU beat EW at home, not road in 2010.
2) late ‘game’ meltdown vs NDSU, not season.
3) 3rd in conference, not fourth this year.
4) 2018 team was 1-4 vs ranked teams, not 0-1 or 2-4.
5) the 2008 team probably wouldn’t have made playoffs if it was a 24 team field since it only had six D1 wins.


MSU - 14 team National Champions (most recent 2011); 52 individual National Champions (most recent 2017).
toM StUber

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Re: Next Year

Post by bobcat99 » Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:04 pm

Ash's first few years were tremendous. He absolutely rebuilt a lot of things, improved the academic standings, vastly improved recruiting. He definitely set the stage for getting MSU to where they are now.

Unfortunately, his last few years had some big problems. The team lost their intensity, conditioning and toughness throughout the program were lacking. Off field issues, huge divide within the team itself, big divide between the coaches themselves. As quickly as Ash built up the program, it was declining. By the time Choate got here, there was a definite lack of talent and major attitude issues within the team.

Ash, overall, was not as bad as the end of his tenure indicated, but was not as good as 2010,2011 would indicate either. Unfortunately for him, he will (and probably should) be defined as how he left the program, and believe me, it was not left in a good place. I'm really not sure what caused it, either, but he was not a well liked man within the building by the end of it.



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Re: Next Year

Post by 77matcat » Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:19 pm

So you’d say the talent Ash started with was better than the talent Choate started with.



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Re: Next Year

Post by grizzh8r » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:59 am

77matcat wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:19 pm
So you’d say the talent Ash started with was better than the talent Choate started with.
I'd say yes, especially comparing the defense and the QB room (two veterans in Rolovitch and Carpenter). That 2007 team went toe to toe with A&M to start the season and was 5-2 at the end of October (the defense averaging under 10 ppg given up in their 5 wins) before dropping 3 of their last 4 in a typical late season swoon.


Eric Curry STILL makes me sad.
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Re: Next Year

Post by CelticCat » Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:19 pm

bobcat99 wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:04 pm
Ash's first few years were tremendous. He absolutely rebuilt a lot of things, improved the academic standings, vastly improved recruiting. He definitely set the stage for getting MSU to where they are now.

Unfortunately, his last few years had some big problems. The team lost their intensity, conditioning and toughness throughout the program were lacking. Off field issues, huge divide within the team itself, big divide between the coaches themselves. As quickly as Ash built up the program, it was declining. By the time Choate got here, there was a definite lack of talent and major attitude issues within the team.

Ash, overall, was not as bad as the end of his tenure indicated, but was not as good as 2010,2011 would indicate either. Unfortunately for him, he will (and probably should) be defined as how he left the program, and believe me, it was not left in a good place. I'm really not sure what caused it, either, but he was not a well liked man within the building by the end of it.
I don't that's fair to only remember Ash for his final 2 seasons, especially for things like you say that aren't even public knowledge. When viewed through the bird's eye view of history, Ash had many, many more successes than failures and I for one won't be remembering him for the way it ended.


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Re: Next Year

Post by vike_king » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:36 pm

CelticCat wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:19 pm
bobcat99 wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:04 pm
Ash's first few years were tremendous. He absolutely rebuilt a lot of things, improved the academic standings, vastly improved recruiting. He definitely set the stage for getting MSU to where they are now.

Unfortunately, his last few years had some big problems. The team lost their intensity, conditioning and toughness throughout the program were lacking. Off field issues, huge divide within the team itself, big divide between the coaches themselves. As quickly as Ash built up the program, it was declining. By the time Choate got here, there was a definite lack of talent and major attitude issues within the team.

Ash, overall, was not as bad as the end of his tenure indicated, but was not as good as 2010,2011 would indicate either. Unfortunately for him, he will (and probably should) be defined as how he left the program, and believe me, it was not left in a good place. I'm really not sure what caused it, either, but he was not a well liked man within the building by the end of it.
I don't that's fair to only remember Ash for his final 2 seasons, especially for things like you say that aren't even public knowledge. When viewed through the bird's eye view of history, Ash had many, many more successes than failures and I for one won't be remembering him for the way it ended.
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AlphaCat1
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Re: Next Year

Post by AlphaCat1 » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:12 pm

Definitely need to upgrade team speed we were slow at a lot of positions this year. The exception being Troy of course.



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Re: Next Year

Post by catscat » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:16 pm

I don't think Coach Choate is as successful without Kramer. I don't think Coach Choate is as successful without Ash. Ever since he whose name shall not be mentioned, it's been a (re)building process. Each coach has been able to do better because of those before him. Therefore, I don't think it's easy to compare coaches. Too many variables. Would Choate be able to recruit as well without having Ash before him, etc? To me, it all boils down to the players. If you have the players (and can coach some), you are successful. To illustrate that point I don't think you have to go any further than Marshall. In 2010, 2011, 2012, MSU (with Marshall as DC) has a good to great defense. Marshall is still there in 2013, 2014, 2015, but the defense is questionable/marginable and everyone wants him fired. Did Marshall all of a sudden get stupid? The difference was the players. That is one thing you might put on Ash, because I think he allowed the recruiting emphasis to overweight to the offense. Give Coach Choate just half the LSU offense and half the LSU defense, and Choate looks like a genius and wipes out NDSU. Then of course there's the weird stuff that happened while Ash was here. A starting O lineman decides to graduate in 3 years. A recruit dies before he even makes it to fall camp. And with Coach Choate - he keeps Prukop or Bruggman is three quarters of what he was expected to be and Choate's first year looks a whole lot better.



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Re: Next Year

Post by TomCat88 » Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:54 pm

I agree that each coach was a bit of a building block for the next coach, but Choate just seems to be on a different level. That doesn't mean anyone before him was bad. I think Hysell, Kramer and Ash were all at about the same good level.


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Re: Next Year

Post by wbtfg » Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:24 am

TomCat88 wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:54 pm
I agree that each coach was a bit of a building block for the next coach, but Choate just seems to be on a different level. That doesn't mean anyone before him was bad. I think Hysell, Kramer and Ash were all at about the same good level.
I agree that Choate is on another level, but I also think that the University and the Athletic Department are on another level from when Ash/Kramer were here. Right now is really an exciting time campus wide for MSU.



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Re: Next Year

Post by catgrad05 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:58 pm

wbtfg wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:24 am
TomCat88 wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:54 pm
I agree that each coach was a bit of a building block for the next coach, but Choate just seems to be on a different level. That doesn't mean anyone before him was bad. I think Hysell, Kramer and Ash were all at about the same good level.
I agree that Choate is on another level, but I also think that the University and the Athletic Department are on another level from when Ash/Kramer were here. Right now is really an exciting time campus wide for MSU.

I’m going to take that one step further and say that the entire conference is more competitive from the Kramer years. Not taking anything away from what previous coaches have done but top to bottom and the unbalanced schedule makes it even more difficult to win a conference championship today than 15 years ago. Plus look at how well the conference is doing on a national level.

What Choate is doing In today’s FCS landscape is very impressive



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Re: Next Year

Post by Hawks86 » Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:30 pm



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Re: Next Year

Post by NorthernPlains » Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:40 pm

wbtfg wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:24 am
TomCat88 wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:54 pm
I agree that each coach was a bit of a building block for the next coach, but Choate just seems to be on a different level. That doesn't mean anyone before him was bad. I think Hysell, Kramer and Ash were all at about the same good level.
I agree that Choate is on another level, but I also think that the University and the Athletic Department are on another level from when Ash/Kramer were here. Right now is really an exciting time campus wide for MSU.

Just took the time to read this thread. Wow, it is quite the read. As to the more recent comments... It is a building process and really has been a progression from one coach to the next. To some degree each benefits from the one before. Though in the big scheme of things Choate easily had the best advantage of the coaches mentioned.

Never was a fan of Ash's style but Ash did "return" MSU to relevance. Kramer made progress but never really had the team fully there. Ash took it to the next level. This allowed Choate to step into a playoff caliber team (albeit one that had completely lost its defense... and seemingly its soul). Jeff had the structural advantages as wbtfg points out and also inherited gifted athletes from Ron. Choate deserves praise for his success. He made the most of it. He had a hell of a year and reached the semi-finals. That is something nobody had done in a generation. Personally I want to see if his success can be maintained or if this was a flash in the pan. At this point I'm not sure which it is.



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Re: Next Year

Post by Hawks86 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:09 am



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