Not sold on Choate

[catsrback76]

He turned a 5 win team into a 4 win team. Then a 5 win team. Has nothing to do with Ash, it could be Stu Lumpkin for all I care.

Just pointing out the obvious. The only reason Choates teams have improved every year is because he went backwards in year 1.

For crying out loud, there’s a big difference between a 4 win season and going back to championships. Although, it looks like Troy Taylor is headed that direction.

So what's your point?? Do you think Choate needs to go? Do you wanna hire Ash again? Cuz I'm pretty sure he's available...

No desire to hire Ash again. (I wouldn’t have fired him 4 years ago, but in retrospect it was 100% the correct decision. Likewise I think Choate was 100% the correct hire). I’m honestly not sure what to do with Choate at this point. Upheaval isn’t good for any organization. Without knowing more about the inner workings on the team, it’s hard to know where to fix the problem.

But the first step in fixing an underperforming organization is acknowledging the problem. But the warning alarms have been ringing loud and clear for at least a year, while BN pretended everything was great.

It’s pretty rare for a head coach to improve after 4 years. The team is stocked with his recruits, his staff, everything. As a rule of thumb, Year 4 is your ceiling.

What a ridiculous statement!

Prove me wrong. Ash, Kramer, Jay Hill, Nick Saban, Urban Meyer, Craig Bohl.

There are probably a few counter examples (the coach at SDSU & JMU, for example), but most coaches who are going to win conference championships are going to do it within the first few years. I'm probably arbitrarily picking 4 because at that point, its almost all guys that the coach recruited.

Like I said, not perfect, but most of the good ones have won their championship by year 4.

Did a quick dive on this. I see a lot of action from years 3 to 5. I see a lot of bad records in Year 1 (the transition year), improvement in Year 2, then conference champion success as soon as Year 3. I disagree about the blanket "coaches rarely improve after 4 years" statement but the clock is ticking and trends are getting stronger.

Don Read

[onceacat]

He turned a 5 win team into a 4 win team. Then a 5 win team. Has nothing to do with Ash, it could be Stu Lumpkin for all I care.

Just pointing out the obvious. The only reason Choates teams have improved every year is because he went backwards in year 1.

For crying out loud, there’s a big difference between a 4 win season and going back to championships. Although, it looks like Troy Taylor is headed that direction.

So what's your point?? Do you think Choate needs to go? Do you wanna hire Ash again? Cuz I'm pretty sure he's available...

No desire to hire Ash again. (I wouldn’t have fired him 4 years ago, but in retrospect it was 100% the correct decision. Likewise I think Choate was 100% the correct hire). I’m honestly not sure what to do with Choate at this point. Upheaval isn’t good for any organization. Without knowing more about the inner workings on the team, it’s hard to know where to fix the problem.

But the first step in fixing an underperforming organization is acknowledging the problem. But the warning alarms have been ringing loud and clear for at least a year, while BN pretended everything was great.

It’s pretty rare for a head coach to improve after 4 years. The team is stocked with his recruits, his staff, everything. As a rule of thumb, Year 4 is your ceiling.

What a ridiculous statement!

Prove me wrong. Ash, Kramer, Jay Hill, Nick Saban, Urban Meyer, Craig Bohl.

There are probably a few counter examples (the coach at SDSU & JMU, for example), but most coaches who are going to win conference championships are going to do it within the first few years. I'm probably arbitrarily picking 4 because at that point, its almost all guys that the coach recruited.

Like I said, not perfect, but most of the good ones have won their championship by year 4.

Did a quick dive on this. I see a lot of action from years 3 to 5. I see a lot of bad records in Year 1 (the transition year), improvement in Year 2, then conference champion success as soon as Year 3. I disagree about the blanket "coaches rarely improve after 4 years" statement but the clock is ticking and trends are getting stronger.

Don Read

7-1in conference and made the national semis in year 4. Thank you!

[TomCat88]

He turned a 5 win team into a 4 win team. Then a 5 win team. Has nothing to do with Ash, it could be Stu Lumpkin for all I care.

Just pointing out the obvious. The only reason Choates teams have improved every year is because he went backwards in year 1.

For crying out loud, there’s a big difference between a 4 win season and going back to championships. Although, it looks like Troy Taylor is headed that direction.

So what's your point?? Do you think Choate needs to go? Do you wanna hire Ash again? Cuz I'm pretty sure he's available...

No desire to hire Ash again. (I wouldn’t have fired him 4 years ago, but in retrospect it was 100% the correct decision. Likewise I think Choate was 100% the correct hire). I’m honestly not sure what to do with Choate at this point. Upheaval isn’t good for any organization. Without knowing more about the inner workings on the team, it’s hard to know where to fix the problem.

But the first step in fixing an underperforming organization is acknowledging the problem. But the warning alarms have been ringing loud and clear for at least a year, while BN pretended everything was great.

It’s pretty rare for a head coach to improve after 4 years. The team is stocked with his recruits, his staff, everything. As a rule of thumb, Year 4 is your ceiling.

What a ridiculous statement!

Prove me wrong. Ash, Kramer, Jay Hill, Nick Saban, Urban Meyer, Craig Bohl.

There are probably a few counter examples (the coach at SDSU & JMU, for example), but most coaches who are going to win conference championships are going to do it within the first few years. I'm probably arbitrarily picking 4 because at that point, its almost all guys that the coach recruited.

Like I said, not perfect, but most of the good ones have won their championship by year 4.

Did a quick dive on this. I see a lot of action from years 3 to 5. I see a lot of bad records in Year 1 (the transition year), improvement in Year 2, then conference champion success as soon as Year 3. I disagree about the blanket "coaches rarely improve after 4 years" statement but the clock is ticking and trends are getting stronger.

Don Read

7-1in conference and made the national semis in year 4. Thank you!

Don Read teams went 7-4, 6-5, 7-4 after that. He probably would’ve been fired in this era. He made the playoffs just twice his first seven years. Then Dickenson came along.

[kwcat]

A legitimate question. Is our Dave Dickenson sitting on the bench?

[Catfacts]

Perhaps. Is there a coach on the sidelines with an offensive mind like Don Read had?

[Mtcatfan]

John Knight is the most athletic/Dickensonish player we have on the team. And he's about 3 inches taller.

[tdub]

John Knight is the most athletic/Dickensonish player we have on the team. And he's about 3 inches taller.

Interesting. Beyond high school tape, what have you seen that prompted you to make that claim? I’m not debating at all and am truly curious. I also know that great high school tape isn’t always a good indicator of how performance will be when every player around you was just as much of a standout athlete.

[onceacat]

He turned a 5 win team into a 4 win team. Then a 5 win team. Has nothing to do with Ash, it could be Stu Lumpkin for all I care.

Just pointing out the obvious. The only reason Choates teams have improved every year is because he went backwards in year 1.

For crying out loud, there’s a big difference between a 4 win season and going back to championships. Although, it looks like Troy Taylor is headed that direction.

So what's your point?? Do you think Choate needs to go? Do you wanna hire Ash again? Cuz I'm pretty sure he's available...

No desire to hire Ash again. (I wouldn’t have fired him 4 years ago, but in retrospect it was 100% the correct decision. Likewise I think Choate was 100% the correct hire). I’m honestly not sure what to do with Choate at this point. Upheaval isn’t good for any organization. Without knowing more about the inner workings on the team, it’s hard to know where to fix the problem.

But the first step in fixing an underperforming organization is acknowledging the problem. But the warning alarms have been ringing loud and clear for at least a year, while BN pretended everything was great.

It’s pretty rare for a head coach to improve after 4 years. The team is stocked with his recruits, his staff, everything. As a rule of thumb, Year 4 is your ceiling.

What a ridiculous statement!

Prove me wrong. Ash, Kramer, Jay Hill, Nick Saban, Urban Meyer, Craig Bohl.

There are probably a few counter examples (the coach at SDSU & JMU, for example), but most coaches who are going to win conference championships are going to do it within the first few years. I'm probably arbitrarily picking 4 because at that point, its almost all guys that the coach recruited.

Like I said, not perfect, but most of the good ones have won their championship by year 4.

Did a quick dive on this. I see a lot of action from years 3 to 5. I see a lot of bad records in Year 1 (the transition year), improvement in Year 2, then conference champion success as soon as Year 3. I disagree about the blanket "coaches rarely improve after 4 years" statement but the clock is ticking and trends are getting stronger.

Don Read

7-1in conference and made the national semis in year 4. Thank you!

Don Read teams went 7-4, 6-5, 7-4 after that. He probably would’ve been fired in this era. He made the playoffs just twice his first seven years. Then Dickenson came along.

Those are damn near Rob Ash numbers! (I jest...)

[Mtcatfan]

Dickenson was a three sport athlete in high school and was damn good at all of em - Football, Basketball and Baseball. John Knight is similar in that he played multiple sports - wrestling instead of basketball, though, and was highly decorated in Washington at the 1-A level. All around athletes like this are the best - they know how to get it done in all situations and the multiple sport experience is invaluable. That's why I compare him to Dave D.

[Cataholic]

He turned a 5 win team into a 4 win team. Then a 5 win team. Has nothing to do with Ash, it could be Stu Lumpkin for all I care.

Just pointing out the obvious. The only reason Choates teams have improved every year is because he went backwards in year 1.

For crying out loud, there’s a big difference between a 4 win season and going back to championships. Although, it looks like Troy Taylor is headed that direction.

So what's your point?? Do you think Choate needs to go? Do you wanna hire Ash again? Cuz I'm pretty sure he's available...

No desire to hire Ash again. (I wouldn’t have fired him 4 years ago, but in retrospect it was 100% the correct decision. Likewise I think Choate was 100% the correct hire). I’m honestly not sure what to do with Choate at this point. Upheaval isn’t good for any organization. Without knowing more about the inner workings on the team, it’s hard to know where to fix the problem.

But the first step in fixing an underperforming organization is acknowledging the problem. But the warning alarms have been ringing loud and clear for at least a year, while BN pretended everything was great.

It’s pretty rare for a head coach to improve after 4 years. The team is stocked with his recruits, his staff, everything. As a rule of thumb, Year 4 is your ceiling.

What a ridiculous statement!

Prove me wrong. Ash, Kramer, Jay Hill, Nick Saban, Urban Meyer, Craig Bohl.

There are probably a few counter examples (the coach at SDSU & JMU, for example), but most coaches who are going to win conference championships are going to do it within the first few years. I'm probably arbitrarily picking 4 because at that point, its almost all guys that the coach recruited.

Like I said, not perfect, but most of the good ones have won their championship by year 4.

Did a quick dive on this. I see a lot of action from years 3 to 5. I see a lot of bad records in Year 1 (the transition year), improvement in Year 2, then conference champion success as soon as Year 3. I disagree about the blanket "coaches rarely improve after 4 years" statement but the clock is ticking and trends are getting stronger.

Don Read

7-1in conference and made the national semis in year 4. Thank you!

Don Read teams went 7-4, 6-5, 7-4 after that. He probably would’ve been fired in this era. He made the playoffs just twice his first seven years. Then Dickenson came along.

Those are damn near Rob Ash numbers! (I jest...)

Your dislike for Choate and this staff is glaring. Every time you post it is something negative. I am disappointed with the last two games as well, but quite frankly, I know the staff and kids are working their asses off. Why don’t you lose your password and spare us the ranting until after the season.

[WalkOn79]

He turned a 5 win team into a 4 win team. Then a 5 win team. Has nothing to do with Ash, it could be Stu Lumpkin for all I care.

Just pointing out the obvious. The only reason Choates teams have improved every year is because he went backwards in year 1.

For crying out loud, there’s a big difference between a 4 win season and going back to championships. Although, it looks like Troy Taylor is headed that direction.

So what's your point?? Do you think Choate needs to go? Do you wanna hire Ash again? Cuz I'm pretty sure he's available...

No desire to hire Ash again. (I wouldn’t have fired him 4 years ago, but in retrospect it was 100% the correct decision. Likewise I think Choate was 100% the correct hire). I’m honestly not sure what to do with Choate at this point. Upheaval isn’t good for any organization. Without knowing more about the inner workings on the team, it’s hard to know where to fix the problem.

But the first step in fixing an underperforming organization is acknowledging the problem. But the warning alarms have been ringing loud and clear for at least a year, while BN pretended everything was great.

It’s pretty rare for a head coach to improve after 4 years. The team is stocked with his recruits, his staff, everything. As a rule of thumb, Year 4 is your ceiling.

What a ridiculous statement!

The ridiculous part is the statement that year 4 is a ceiling of some kind. The good to great coaches get rolling in year 3,4 or 5, but they don't peak there.

[tdub]

Dickenson was a three sport athlete in high school and was damn good at all of em - Football, Basketball and Baseball. John Knight is similar in that he played multiple sports - wrestling instead of basketball, though, and was highly decorated in Washington at the 1-A level. All around athletes like this are the best - they know how to get it done in all situations and the multiple sport experience is invaluable. That's why I compare him to Dave D.

Thanks for the explanation. I tend err on the side the wrestlers so I’ll be rooting for him to become the man (I wrestled through college). Due to the nature of the sport, very successful wrestlers tend to be more apt to rise to an occasion (not all - but odds are good). Tucker Yates is a perfect example.

I could absolutely go off on the benefits of multi-sport athletes vs. kids that focus on one. So I dig the way you’re thinking.

[iaafan]

Had it not been for Dave, Don’s career would’ve been very bland. He was 20-19 his first stint at PSU. 9-24 at Oregon. 21-15 at Oregon Tech. 19-33-1 his second trip through PSU. Pre Dave he was 51-29 at UM in seven years and didn’t win any league titles. He was 120-120-1 until Dave arrived. He was 34-7 with him and at least one loss was with Dave out. He coached for 22 seasons and only won three conference championships - his only two at UM were with Dave.

[onceacat]

So what's your point?? Do you think Choate needs to go? Do you wanna hire Ash again? Cuz I'm pretty sure he's available...

No desire to hire Ash again. (I wouldn’t have fired him 4 years ago, but in retrospect it was 100% the correct decision. Likewise I think Choate was 100% the correct hire). I’m honestly not sure what to do with Choate at this point. Upheaval isn’t good for any organization. Without knowing more about the inner workings on the team, it’s hard to know where to fix the problem.

But the first step in fixing an underperforming organization is acknowledging the problem. But the warning alarms have been ringing loud and clear for at least a year, while BN pretended everything was great.

It’s pretty rare for a head coach to improve after 4 years. The team is stocked with his recruits, his staff, everything. As a rule of thumb, Year 4 is your ceiling.

What a ridiculous statement!

Prove me wrong. Ash, Kramer, Jay Hill, Nick Saban, Urban Meyer, Craig Bohl.

There are probably a few counter examples (the coach at SDSU & JMU, for example), but most coaches who are going to win conference championships are going to do it within the first few years. I'm probably arbitrarily picking 4 because at that point, its almost all guys that the coach recruited.

Like I said, not perfect, but most of the good ones have won their championship by year 4.

Did a quick dive on this. I see a lot of action from years 3 to 5. I see a lot of bad records in Year 1 (the transition year), improvement in Year 2, then conference champion success as soon as Year 3. I disagree about the blanket "coaches rarely improve after 4 years" statement but the clock is ticking and trends are getting stronger.

Don Read

7-1in conference and made the national semis in year 4. Thank you!

Don Read teams went 7-4, 6-5, 7-4 after that. He probably would’ve been fired in this era. He made the playoffs just twice his first seven years. Then Dickenson came along.

Those are damn near Rob Ash numbers! (I jest...)

Your dislike for Choate and this staff is glaring. Every time you post it is something negative. I am disappointed with the last two games as well, but quite frankly, I know the staff and kids are working their asses off. Why don’t you lose your password and spare us the ranting until after the season.

I genuinely like and respect Choate, every single member of the staff, and have a ton of respect for these kids who are busting their behinds to try to make this team work.

But my "like" and "dislike" of an individual has zero bearing on analyzing their performance. I've had to fire employees who I genuinely liked and respected. I sure hope none of this is interpreted as like/dislike. Its a matter of "meets expectations/does not meet expectations".

[Cataholic]

No desire to hire Ash again. (I wouldn’t have fired him 4 years ago, but in retrospect it was 100% the correct decision. Likewise I think Choate was 100% the correct hire). I’m honestly not sure what to do with Choate at this point. Upheaval isn’t good for any organization. Without knowing more about the inner workings on the team, it’s hard to know where to fix the problem.

But the first step in fixing an underperforming organization is acknowledging the problem. But the warning alarms have been ringing loud and clear for at least a year, while BN pretended everything was great.

It’s pretty rare for a head coach to improve after 4 years. The team is stocked with his recruits, his staff, everything. As a rule of thumb, Year 4 is your ceiling.

What a ridiculous statement!

Prove me wrong. Ash, Kramer, Jay Hill, Nick Saban, Urban Meyer, Craig Bohl.

There are probably a few counter examples (the coach at SDSU & JMU, for example), but most coaches who are going to win conference championships are going to do it within the first few years. I'm probably arbitrarily picking 4 because at that point, its almost all guys that the coach recruited.

Like I said, not perfect, but most of the good ones have won their championship by year 4.

Did a quick dive on this. I see a lot of action from years 3 to 5. I see a lot of bad records in Year 1 (the transition year), improvement in Year 2, then conference champion success as soon as Year 3. I disagree about the blanket "coaches rarely improve after 4 years" statement but the clock is ticking and trends are getting stronger.

Don Read

7-1in conference and made the national semis in year 4. Thank you!

Don Read teams went 7-4, 6-5, 7-4 after that. He probably would’ve been fired in this era. He made the playoffs just twice his first seven years. Then Dickenson came along.

Those are damn near Rob Ash numbers! (I jest...)

Your dislike for Choate and this staff is glaring. Every time you post it is something negative. I am disappointed with the last two games as well, but quite frankly, I know the staff and kids are working their asses off. Why don’t you lose your password and spare us the ranting until after the season.

I genuinely like and respect Choate, every single member of the staff, and have a ton of respect for these kids who are busting their behinds to try to make this team work.

But my "like" and "dislike" of an individual has zero bearing on analyzing their performance. I've had to fire employees who I genuinely liked and respected. I sure hope none of this is interpreted as like/dislike. Its a matter of "meets expectations/does not meet expectations".

Maybe your expectations are unrealistic. I for one have survived the depths of the Bobcat program and feel pretty damn good about the future. Last week was very frustrating, but we have great facilities, great recruits, fantastic kids graduating and athletes who we can be proud of off the field. And don’t tell me for the umpteenth time that we should be further along on the field. We are one position away from being undefeated in FCS play this year. How good would we have been with Murray eligible? Or maybe Gresch Jenson coming in? Despite all this, we are still winning.

Honestly, you don’t even sound like a fan of the Cats in over half of your posts.

[TomCat88]

Had it not been for Dave, Don’s career would’ve been very bland. He was 20-19 his first stint at PSU. 9-24 at Oregon. 21-15 at Oregon Tech. 19-33-1 his second trip through PSU. Pre Dave he was 51-29 at UM in seven years and didn’t win any league titles. He was 120-120-1 until Dave arrived. He was 34-7 with him and at least one loss was with Dave out. He coached for 22 seasons and only won three conference championships - his only two at UM were with Dave.

Had it been in this day-and-age. Read never would’ve been hired at UM. Can you even imagine UM hiring a coach 22 games below .500? I’m not knocking him, just pointing out how the times have changed. It makes the 80s-90s seem like eons ago.

[iaafan]

Had it not been for Dave, Don’s career would’ve been very bland. He was 20-19 his first stint at PSU. 9-24 at Oregon. 21-15 at Oregon Tech. 19-33-1 his second trip through PSU. Pre Dave he was 51-29 at UM in seven years and didn’t win any league titles. He was 120-120-1 until Dave arrived. He was 34-7 with him and at least one loss was with Dave out. He coached for 22 seasons and only won three conference championships - his only two at UM were with Dave.

Had it been in this day-and-age. Read never would’ve been hired at UM. Can you even imagine UM hiring a coach 22 games below .500? I’m not knocking him, just pointing out how the times have changed. It makes the 80s-90s seem like eons ago.

I wasn’t bagging on Read either. But these people who think there’s some kind of set timeframe for success are nuts and haven’t studied football at all.

Belichick was 41-55 his first six seasons. Only one playoff appearance. So bad at Cleveland he didn’t get a head coaching job again for five years.

[JDoub]

I like Choate, but we have now seen his glaring weaknesses. It looks to me like he can improve on those.
Strengths:
-Culture builder, good recruiter
-Defensive minded HC, D has been pretty good in his time
-2nd half adjustments have been effective

weaknesses:
-not offensive minded beyond "steal their soul" run game, which ironically we have been beat at our game big-time w/ NDSU, Sac State, UND. Choate's teams do not have balance
-proven weakness to recruit/develop QB's; just the opposite of Troy Taylor
-to me, Choate has made several really bad HC calls in games, that have cost the team wins. With a 'steal your soul' game plan, there is just no margin for those errors.

questionable:
-ST minded, ST has been OK, great at times, but has cost us some games under Choate. ie. last Saturday, SDSU's fake FG, maybe others
-game planning. Choate's teams start slow. Hope is not a strategy
-Assistants like Ty G, Bob Cole and Courtney Messingham, don't know what to make of them under Choate. CM just called a great game as K-State upset Oklahoma. He didn't do that when he was here. Begs the question to me if Choate is a micromanager to the point of hurting his coordinators, or if he plays the blame game internally.

He is our coach, and I am for him all the way. Doing SWAT analysis is essential to anyone's job and life improvement, so don't take this post as a slam on Choate, but a quick critique. I want Choate to improve and succeed, and he has created a culture where that CAN happen, he showed integrity IMO after the UND loss, and indicators that he is focused on self improvement. This is a good thing. Now time to man up and get ****** done as HC.

[iaafan]

You can’t blame everything on Choate. Or credit him for everything.

Choate didn’t:
Cause the punt team to muff two snaps, get a punt blocked for a losing TD, shank punt vs Poly.
Make Rovig throw bad interceptions vs NAU, SAC, and Poly.
Allow punt to get downed at the one inch line.
Etc.

[CelticCat]

Why does everyone keep talking about how bad Rovig's interceptions are? Is there such a thing as a good interception? I mean get where it's coming from, but an INTs an INT.

By the way I just crunched some numbers, Rovig has thrown an interception on 2.29% of his throws, which would put him 4th in the conference and above Dalton Sneed. Mason Petrino is last at 3.61%, Davis Alexander 1st at just 1.65%.