Sagarin Rankings

Discuss anything and everything relating to Bobcat Football here.

Moderators: rtb, kmax, SonomaCat

TomCat88
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 13564
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:16 am
Location: An endless run of moguls

Re: Sagarin Rankings

Post by TomCat88 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:45 am

John K wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:53 am
I can't imagine that they'd award 4 of the 8 seeds to BSC teams, even if they're legitimately deserving of that many (and I think they may be). I could see them getting 3 seeds though, with UM the odd man out. I think Sac and WSU are deserving of being seeded ahead of us, since they tied for the title, and Sac beat us easily. If they give the BSC a 3rd seed, we'd have to get the nod over UM, after the beatdown we gave them yesterday. I believe the BSC got 3 seeds last year...right?
What six teams besides Weber and SAC do you have getting seeded ahead of MSU?


MSU - 14 team National Champions (most recent 2011); 52 individual National Champions (most recent 2017).
toM StUber

User avatar
catgrad05
1st Team All-BobcatNation
Posts: 1772
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:51 am
Location: North Central Montna

Re: Sagarin Rankings

Post by catgrad05 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:56 am

The team I can’t figure out is Weber. Sac should be the highest rank out of BSC only one FCS loss. But that loss was to Weber who also has one FCS loss but wins the Auto Bid. The Big Sky is a mess for seeding and I don’t know if that’s helps or hurts the conference. If UND gets in that’s basically 5 teams that played a BSC conference schedule.



onceacat
1st Team All-BobcatNation
Posts: 1702
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:35 pm

Re: Sagarin Rankings

Post by onceacat » Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:59 am

TomCat88 wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:45 am
John K wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:53 am
I can't imagine that they'd award 4 of the 8 seeds to BSC teams, even if they're legitimately deserving of that many (and I think they may be). I could see them getting 3 seeds though, with UM the odd man out. I think Sac and WSU are deserving of being seeded ahead of us, since they tied for the title, and Sac beat us easily. If they give the BSC a 3rd seed, we'd have to get the nod over UM, after the beatdown we gave them yesterday. I believe the BSC got 3 seeds last year...right?
What six teams besides Weber and SAC do you have getting seeded ahead of MSU?
A week ago, I didn't think the committee would go to 4 BSC teams...with the ISU & SDSU losses, its pretty possible.

So, to answer your question: NDSU & JMU obviously get the nod over MSU. Plus WSU & SSU...then, if I had my way, I'd slide anybody...maybe UNI or 'Nova, or even Wofford over MSU in order to make the QF matchup MSU vs Weber, instead of MSU vs Sac.

Last week, I would have thought a 34 point loss knocked the Griz out of the seeds...but do you give the nod to SDSU or ISU after losing to non-playoff teams...its hard to see that. Griz probably deserve the #8.



John K
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 8141
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:04 am
Location: Great Falls MT

Re: Sagarin Rankings

Post by John K » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:33 am

A few years ago, people were saying that the BSC was in decline...maybe only the 5th best FCS conference. Now it appears that it's stronger than it's ever been, and quite possibly the best conference in the nation, even better than the mighty MVFC. Of course the CAA and Southern have been weakened by the defections of several powerhouses programs to the FBS.



Catsrgrood
BobcatNation Team Captain
Posts: 649
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:49 pm
Location: Billings

Re: Sagarin Rankings

Post by Catsrgrood » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:02 pm

Might as well update again, added in Albany

Cats up 3 spots in the overall to 97th and 7th in the FCS.

Texas Tech- 50th overall, 49th in FBS (NDSU is 38th overall)
SEMO- 158th overall and 35th in FCS
WIU- 211th overall and 83rd in FCS
Norfolk State- 221st overall and 92nd in FCS
Albany- 139th overall and 21st in FCS

Big Sky (opponents in bold):

UM- 92nd overall, 4th in FCS
Weber-94th overall, 5th in FCS
Sac St- 96th overall, 6th in FCS
MSU- 97th overall, 7th in FCS
EWU- 123rd overall, 10th in FCS
UC Davis- 134th overall, 18th in FCS
North Dakota- 153rd overall, 32nd in FCS
Idaho- 155th overall, 34th in FCS
Portland State- 168th overall, 44th in FCS
Cal Poly- 174th overall, 49th in FCS
NAU- 177th overall, 52nd in FCS
Idaho State- 188th overall, 61st in FCS
Southern Utah- 189th overall, 62nd in FCS
Northern Colorado- 203rd overall, 75th in FCS

http://sagarin.com/sports/cfsend.htm

Albany comes in between UC Davis and UND, making them the 4th toughest FCS opponent the Cats have faced up to this point.



Catsrgrood
BobcatNation Team Captain
Posts: 649
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:49 pm
Location: Billings

Re: Sagarin Rankings

Post by Catsrgrood » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:30 am

Cats up 7 spots in the overall to 90th and 4th in the FCS.

Texas Tech- 50th overall, 49th in FBS (NDSU is 37th overall)
SEMO- 158th overall and 35th in FCS
WIU- 210th overall and 82nd in FCS
Norfolk State- 221st overall and 92nd in FCS
Albany- 142nd overall and 24th in FCS
Austin Peay- 123rd overall and 10th in FCS

Big Sky (opponents in bold):

UM- 86th overall, 3rd in FCS
MSU- 90th overall, 4th in FCS
Weber- 93rd overall, 5th in FCS
Sac St- 110th overall, 8th in FCS
EWU- 124th overall, 11th in FCS
UC Davis- 134th overall, 18th in FCS
North Dakota- 154th overall, 33rd in FCS
Idaho- 156th overall, 34th in FCS
Portland State- 169th overall, 45th in FCS
Cal Poly- 174th overall, 49th in FCS
NAU- 177th overall, 52nd in FCS
Southern Utah- 187th overall, 60th in FCS
Idaho State- 189th overall, 62nd in FCS
Northern Colorado- 203rd overall, 75th in FCS

http://sagarin.com/sports/cfsend.htm

Going off of these rankings, Austin Peay will be the 3rd toughest FCS opponents that Cats have faced this year.



User avatar
luckyirishguy25
BobcatNation Hall of Famer
Posts: 3663
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:59 pm
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Sagarin Rankings

Post by luckyirishguy25 » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:53 am

Catsrgrood wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:30 am
Cats up 7 spots in the overall to 90th and 4th in the FCS.

Texas Tech- 50th overall, 49th in FBS (NDSU is 37th overall)
SEMO- 158th overall and 35th in FCS
WIU- 210th overall and 82nd in FCS
Norfolk State- 221st overall and 92nd in FCS
Albany- 142nd overall and 24th in FCS
Austin Peay- 123rd overall and 10th in FCS

Big Sky (opponents in bold):

UM- 86th overall, 3rd in FCS
MSU- 90th overall, 4th in FCS
Weber- 93rd overall, 5th in FCS
Sac St- 110th overall, 8th in FCS
EWU- 124th overall, 11th in FCS
UC Davis- 134th overall, 18th in FCS
North Dakota- 154th overall, 33rd in FCS
Idaho- 156th overall, 34th in FCS
Portland State- 169th overall, 45th in FCS
Cal Poly- 174th overall, 49th in FCS
NAU- 177th overall, 52nd in FCS
Southern Utah- 187th overall, 60th in FCS
Idaho State- 189th overall, 62nd in FCS
Northern Colorado- 203rd overall, 75th in FCS

http://sagarin.com/sports/cfsend.htm

Going off of these rankings, Austin Peay will be the 3rd toughest FCS opponents that Cats have faced this year.
I don't put much stock into ratings that have a team we absolutely own ahead of us.



Catsrgrood
BobcatNation Team Captain
Posts: 649
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:49 pm
Location: Billings

Re: Sagarin Rankings

Post by Catsrgrood » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:58 am

luckyirishguy25 wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:53 am
Catsrgrood wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:30 am
Cats up 7 spots in the overall to 90th and 4th in the FCS.

Texas Tech- 50th overall, 49th in FBS (NDSU is 37th overall)
SEMO- 158th overall and 35th in FCS
WIU- 210th overall and 82nd in FCS
Norfolk State- 221st overall and 92nd in FCS
Albany- 142nd overall and 24th in FCS
Austin Peay- 123rd overall and 10th in FCS

Big Sky (opponents in bold):

UM- 86th overall, 3rd in FCS
MSU- 90th overall, 4th in FCS
Weber- 93rd overall, 5th in FCS
Sac St- 110th overall, 8th in FCS
EWU- 124th overall, 11th in FCS
UC Davis- 134th overall, 18th in FCS
North Dakota- 154th overall, 33rd in FCS
Idaho- 156th overall, 34th in FCS
Portland State- 169th overall, 45th in FCS
Cal Poly- 174th overall, 49th in FCS
NAU- 177th overall, 52nd in FCS
Southern Utah- 187th overall, 60th in FCS
Idaho State- 189th overall, 62nd in FCS
Northern Colorado- 203rd overall, 75th in FCS

http://sagarin.com/sports/cfsend.htm

Going off of these rankings, Austin Peay will be the 3rd toughest FCS opponents that Cats have faced this year.
I don't put much stock into ratings that have a team we absolutely own ahead of us.
Again, it’s a computer algorithm that takes into account full body of work and strength of schedule. Both Cats and griz are ahead of Sac St now since they lost yesterday even though they both got worked by them a few weeks ago.

It’s not meant to be the end all of rankings, but it’s interesting to track throughout the season. It’s widely regarded as the go to for computer rankings, but still isn’t perfect.



User avatar
RickRund
BobcatNation Hall of Famer
Posts: 3979
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:08 pm
Location: Post Falls ID

Re: Sagarin Rankings

Post by RickRund » Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:47 pm

SELa was at 141 and UAlbany was at 142...



Catsrgrood
BobcatNation Team Captain
Posts: 649
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:49 pm
Location: Billings

Re: Sagarin Rankings

Post by Catsrgrood » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:35 am

Not a lot of movement anywhere as expected since there were only a handful of games, but I’ve tracked every week, so I’m not going to stop now. I’ll update until the end to see where they all end up.

At this point in the season, one game isn’t going to create a big swing one way or another, but I was still surprised to see um above both Weber and the Cats

Cats up 1 spot in the overall to 89th but dropped a spot to 5th in the FCS.

Texas Tech- 51st overall, 49th in FBS (NDSU and JMU both in top 50)
SEMO- 158th overall and 35th in FCS
WIU- 210th overall and 82nd in FCS
Norfolk State- 221st overall and 92nd in FCS
Albany- 142nd overall and 24th in FCS
Austin Peay- 126th overall and 13th in FCS
NDSU- 41st overall and #1 in FCS

Big Sky (opponents in bold):

UM- 87th overall, 3rd in FCS
Weber- 88th overall, 4th in FCS
MSU- 89th overall, 5th in FCS
Sac St- 110th overall, 8th in FCS
EWU- 123rd overall, 10th in FCS
UC Davis- 134th overall, 18th in FCS
North Dakota- 154th overall, 33rd in FCS
Idaho- 155th overall, 34th in FCS
Portland State- 169th overall, 45th in FCS
Cal Poly- 173rd overall, 49th in FCS
NAU- 177th overall, 52nd in FCS
Southern Utah- 187th overall, 60th in FCS
Idaho State- 188th overall, 61st in FCS
Northern Colorado- 203rd overall, 75th in FCS

http://sagarin.com/sports/cfsend.htm



ilovethecats
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 4154
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:12 pm

Re: Sagarin Rankings

Post by ilovethecats » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:43 am

These are a joke.

Don’t get me wrong, appreciate you posting! But this specific ranking has been ridiculous all year.



TomCat88
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 13564
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:16 am
Location: An endless run of moguls

Re: Sagarin Rankings

Post by TomCat88 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:04 am

ilovethecats wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:43 am
These are a joke.

Don’t get me wrong, appreciate you posting! But this specific ranking has been ridiculous all year.
All year. Consistently ridiculous. I don’t know much about algorithms, but if there’s good and bad ones, then this is a bad one.


MSU - 14 team National Champions (most recent 2011); 52 individual National Champions (most recent 2017).
toM StUber

User avatar
Cledus
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 4378
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:18 pm
Location: Billings Heights

Re: Sagarin Rankings

Post by Cledus » Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:03 am

TomCat88 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:04 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:43 am
These are a joke.

Don’t get me wrong, appreciate you posting! But this specific ranking has been ridiculous all year.
All year. Consistently ridiculous. I don’t know much about algorithms, but if there’s good and bad ones, then this is a bad one.
I’ve been saying that for years. The only reason people hang on to Sagarin is because of the name recognition for being first.



91catAlum
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 6798
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:41 pm
Location: Clancy, MT

Re: Sagarin Rankings

Post by 91catAlum » Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:24 am

Cledus wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:03 am
TomCat88 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:04 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:43 am
These are a joke.

Don’t get me wrong, appreciate you posting! But this specific ranking has been ridiculous all year.
All year. Consistently ridiculous. I don’t know much about algorithms, but if there’s good and bad ones, then this is a bad one.
I’ve been saying that for years. The only reason people hang on to Sagarin is because of the name recognition for being first.
It's not just fans who use it, it's one of the tie breakers for conference champion.


Image
24-17
31-23
29-25
48-14

85CatGrad
BobcatNation Letterman
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:27 pm
Location: Montana

Re: Sagarin Rankings

Post by 85CatGrad » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:36 pm

91catAlum wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:24 am
Cledus wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:03 am
TomCat88 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:04 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:43 am
These are a joke.

Don’t get me wrong, appreciate you posting! But this specific ranking has been ridiculous all year.
All year. Consistently ridiculous. I don’t know much about algorithms, but if there’s good and bad ones, then this is a bad one.
I’ve been saying that for years. The only reason people hang on to Sagarin is because of the name recognition for being first.
It's not just fans who use it, it's one of the tie breakers for conference champion.
Well then they need to fix the damn algorithm. When a team beats the b-jesus out of another team and is still ranked below you got a math problem. Sounds to me like the Saragrin folks got a math degree from dUMb. :lol:



91catAlum
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 6798
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:41 pm
Location: Clancy, MT

Re: Sagarin Rankings

Post by 91catAlum » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:39 pm

85CatGrad wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:36 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:24 am
Cledus wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:03 am
TomCat88 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:04 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:43 am
These are a joke.

Don’t get me wrong, appreciate you posting! But this specific ranking has been ridiculous all year.
All year. Consistently ridiculous. I don’t know much about algorithms, but if there’s good and bad ones, then this is a bad one.
I’ve been saying that for years. The only reason people hang on to Sagarin is because of the name recognition for being first.
It's not just fans who use it, it's one of the tie breakers for conference champion.
Well then they need to fix the damn algorithm. When a team beats the b-jesus out of another team and is still ranked below you got a math problem. Sounds to me like the Saragrin folks got a math degree from dUMb. :lol:
I agree it has problems, just saying that it's not some worthless metric nobody uses. It does get used, and for important things.


Image
24-17
31-23
29-25
48-14

kwcat
1st Team All-BobcatNation
Posts: 1557
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:34 am

Re: Sagarin Rankings

Post by kwcat » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:43 pm

TomCat88 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:04 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:43 am
These are a joke.

Don’t get me wrong, appreciate you posting! But this specific ranking has been ridiculous all year.
All year. Consistently ridiculous. I don’t know much about algorithms, but if there’s good and bad ones, then this is a bad one.
Like the one where he invented the internet! :lol:



MSU01
BobcatNation Hall of Famer
Posts: 3972
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:21 pm

Re: Sagarin Rankings

Post by MSU01 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:56 pm

Interesting discussion. Personally I think the Sagarin ratings look pretty darn accurate when we take into account the results from the entire season and don't get hung up in the rabbit hole of trying to rank based on results of individual games. MSU beat UM, who beat Weber, who beat Sac State, who beat MSU...so how do you rank those four based just on that infinite loop of head-to-head results? I'll take a computer ranking any day, even a flawed one, over the Coaches poll voted on by coaches who can't possibly have the time to pay close enough attention to the entire FCS to vote accurately.

UM, Weber, and MSU being ranked as the 3rd, 4th, and 5th best teams in the FCS is pretty much what their playoff seeding was. UM is ranked highest presumably because they had a better FBS opponent (Oregon instead of Texas Tech) and played all four possible Big Sky opponents who finished either 7-1 or 6-2, while MSU didn't play EWU or Weber. So be it - they had a great season and easily could've been playing next weekend too if things had gone their way. Fortunately the real champion will be decided on the field and not on the internet, and it'll be exciting to see if MSU can go out there and change the polls in their favor!


Go Bobcats! 24-17 31-23 29-25 48-14

TomCat88
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 13564
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:16 am
Location: An endless run of moguls

Re: Sagarin Rankings

Post by TomCat88 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:12 pm

91catAlum wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:39 pm
85CatGrad wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:36 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:24 am
Cledus wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:03 am
TomCat88 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:04 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:43 am
These are a joke.

Don’t get me wrong, appreciate you posting! But this specific ranking has been ridiculous all year.
All year. Consistently ridiculous. I don’t know much about algorithms, but if there’s good and bad ones, then this is a bad one.
I’ve been saying that for years. The only reason people hang on to Sagarin is because of the name recognition for being first.
It's not just fans who use it, it's one of the tie breakers for conference champion.
Well then they need to fix the damn algorithm. When a team beats the b-jesus out of another team and is still ranked below you got a math problem. Sounds to me like the Saragrin folks got a math degree from dUMb. :lol:
I agree it has problems, just saying that it's not some worthless metric nobody uses. It does get used, and for important things.
Which makes it a worthless metric somebody uses. It therefore gets misused for important things...and, after all it should, that's the American way!


MSU - 14 team National Champions (most recent 2011); 52 individual National Champions (most recent 2017).
toM StUber

TomCat88
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 13564
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:16 am
Location: An endless run of moguls

Re: Sagarin Rankings

Post by TomCat88 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:16 pm

MSU01 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:56 pm
Interesting discussion. Personally I think the Sagarin ratings look pretty darn accurate when we take into account the results from the entire season and don't get hung up in the rabbit hole of trying to rank based on results of individual games. MSU beat UM, who beat Weber, who beat Sac State, who beat MSU...so how do you rank those four based just on that infinite loop of head-to-head results? I'll take a computer ranking any day, even a flawed one, over the Coaches poll voted on by coaches who can't possibly have the time to pay close enough attention to the entire FCS to vote accurately.

UM, Weber, and MSU being ranked as the 3rd, 4th, and 5th best teams in the FCS is pretty much what their playoff seeding was. UM is ranked highest presumably because they had a better FBS opponent (Oregon instead of Texas Tech) and played all four possible Big Sky opponents who finished either 7-1 or 6-2, while MSU didn't play EWU or Weber. So be it - they had a great season and easily could've been playing next weekend too if things had gone their way. Fortunately the real champion will be decided on the field and not on the internet, and it'll be exciting to see if MSU can go out there and change the polls in their favor!
For FCS (and FBS for that matter) teams they may as well stop rating them after the playoffs start. They're rendered meaningless after the tournament selection is completed. The FCS selection committee only uses them to break a tie/argument, so I doubt they get used very often anyway. As far as computer rankings go, the season is over, so turn them off.


MSU - 14 team National Champions (most recent 2011); 52 individual National Champions (most recent 2017).
toM StUber

Post Reply