The Bobcat Nation

I'm trying to stay positive about this team because there's a lot of fight in them. They never quit and that's something to be proud of.

Winning isn't easy, and knowing how to win and what it takes to win are essential.

Messingham is a loser. He's been an anchor or albatross around the neck of his last few stops. The guy doesn't know how to put a string of plays together to get the defense looking the wrong way. It's like there's a coin flip and he picks the plays based on the outcome of heads or tails. There is no logical progression. There's no misdirection. There's just line em up and go for it, which is fine if the OL is 325 lbs across the board, but we're not. It's also fine if all the skill players run a 4.5 40, but we don't. This team needs the deception and creativity and I don't think Messingham has the know how or ability to think that way. He needs to go and someone else needs to call the plays.

The offense is not organized and without that organization, the OL can't develop timing and often gets confused, which is what I attribute to the penalties and lack of execution. There's no clear vision.

I like Choate and the energy he brings. I like what's happened on the defensive side of the ball. I can understand to a point where he's coming from in managing the QB situation, but from day 1, the hiring of Messingham has not looked like a solid decision.

Cut your losses now Choate! Let one of the other coaches call the plays and get someone here in the offseason who demonstrably has an offensive mind and knows how to find and exploit holes in a defense as well as create those holes by play calling.

LongTimeCatFan wrote:I'm trying to stay positive about this team because there's a lot of fight in them. They never quit and that's something to be proud of.

Winning isn't easy, and knowing how to win and what it takes to win are essential.

Messingham is a loser. He's been an anchor or albatross around the neck of his last few stops. The guy doesn't know how to put a string of plays together to get the defense looking the wrong way. It's like there's a coin flip and he picks the plays based on the outcome of heads or tails. There is no logical progression. There's no misdirection. There's just line em up and go for it, which is fine if the OL is 325 lbs across the board, but we're not. It's also fine if all the skill players run a 4.5 40, but we don't. This team needs the deception and creativity and I don't think Messingham has the know how or ability to think that way. He needs to go and someone else needs to call the plays.

The offense is not organized and without that organization, the OL can't develop timing and often gets confused, which is what I attribute to the penalties and lack of execution. There's no clear vision.

I like Choate and the energy he brings. I like what's happened on the defensive side of the ball. I can understand to a point where he's coming from in managing the QB situation, but from day 1, the hiring of Messingham has not looked like a solid decision.

Cut your losses now Choate! Let one of the other coaches call the plays and get someone here in the offseason who demonstrably has an offensive mind and knows how to find and exploit holes in a defense as well as create those holes by play calling.

You're right about a lot of stuff here. Actually, it's hard to argue with any point you made.

I've been saying this on several boards, but let's not resort to calling our own coaches "losers". Not a good look. We're better than that.

However, I agree a change is in order as soon as the season ends.

Great post.


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I'm ready for him to go now, Brian Armstrong couldn't do any worse and he has called plays before. I don't know who you move to QB coach but surely you can at least find someone that knows a bad qb when he sees one.

At the very least Choate needs to make changes and take ownership of the offensive failure.

You know you people have the choice to go cheer for UM right? What does Messingham have to do with receivers dropping balls and o-line missing blocks? Other than running up the middle on first down everytime, I feel like when Murray is in we do a pretty good job, considering he wasn't brought in to run a Murray style offense. Wins will come and all you people will sit here and say how great everything is.

Theway I see it, Messingham is running the offense Choate wants to run. An offense that is simple and stresses in your face, downhill running, control the ball, physical offense, with run setting up the pass.He wants to build a NDSU type of culture in his team. That said, we don't yet have the type of players to do that, but it doesn't mean he has to change to a smoke and mirrors type of offense. If he started relying on trickery, there would be confusion in the minds of the players, especially when he said when he came here that they were going to be tough and physical. I think he feels that the "culture" is more important than changing his philosophy to win with the players he has now for short term success.

GoCats18 wrote:You know you people have the choice to go cheer for UM right? What does Messingham have to do with receivers dropping balls and o-line missing blocks? Other than running up the middle on first down everytime, I feel like when Murray is in we do a pretty good job, considering he wasn't brought in to run a Murray style offense. Wins will come and all you people will sit here and say how great everything is.

You know you can choose to not open the thread if you just going to make useless statements. People have their rights to their opinion even if they don't align with yours surprisingly. The fact of the matter is we have not been good on offense. We either look amazing or go 3 and out and there have been far too many of the latter. How about we put numbers up on a team that isnt horrible and you might have a leg to stand on.

Helcat72 wrote:Theway I see it, Messingham is running the offense Choate wants to run. An offense that is simple and stresses in your face, downhill running, control the ball, physical offense, with run setting up the pass.He wants to build a NDSU type of culture in his team. That said, we don't yet have the type of players to do that, but it doesn't mean he has to change to a smoke and mirrors type of offense. If he started relying on trickery, there would be confusion in the minds of the players, especially when he said when he came here that they were going to be tough and physical. I think he feels that the "culture" is more important than changing his philosophy to win with the players he has now for short term success.

Inside zone out of the gun is NOT downhill running.

This isn't so much an "offense" per se, as it is just a collection of plays that don't build upon one another and lack vision and coordination.

You can have deception with the offense Choate does want to run (counter, reverse, play action).

LongTimeCatFan wrote:I'm trying to stay positive about this team because there's a lot of fight in them. They never quit and that's something to be proud of.

Winning isn't easy, and knowing how to win and what it takes to win are essential.

Messingham is a loser. He's been an anchor or albatross around the neck of his last few stops. The guy doesn't know how to put a string of plays together to get the defense looking the wrong way. It's like there's a coin flip and he picks the plays based on the outcome of heads or tails. There is no logical progression. There's no misdirection. There's just line em up and go for it, which is fine if the OL is 325 lbs across the board, but we're not. It's also fine if all the skill players run a 4.5 40, but we don't. This team needs the deception and creativity and I don't think Messingham has the know how or ability to think that way. He needs to go and someone else needs to call the plays.

The offense is not organized and without that organization, the OL can't develop timing and often gets confused, which is what I attribute to the penalties and lack of execution. There's no clear vision.

I like Choate and the energy he brings. I like what's happened on the defensive side of the ball. I can understand to a point where he's coming from in managing the QB situation, but from day 1, the hiring of Messingham has not looked like a solid decision.

Cut your losses now Choate! Let one of the other coaches call the plays and get someone here in the offseason who demonstrably has an offensive mind and knows how to find and exploit holes in a defense as well as create those holes by play calling.

Agree. Messingham is just awful. 6 games is more than enough to see that... Pretty frustrating.

LongTimeCatFan wrote:

Helcat72 wrote:Theway I see it, Messingham is running the offense Choate wants to run. An offense that is simple and stresses in your face, downhill running, control the ball, physical offense, with run setting up the pass.He wants to build a NDSU type of culture in his team. That said, we don't yet have the type of players to do that, but it doesn't mean he has to change to a smoke and mirrors type of offense. If he started relying on trickery, there would be confusion in the minds of the players, especially when he said when he came here that they were going to be tough and physical. I think he feels that the "culture" is more important than changing his philosophy to win with the players he has now for short term success.

Inside zone out of the gun is NOT downhill running.

This isn't so much an "offense" per se, as it is just a collection of plays that don't build upon one another and lack vision and coordination.

You can have deception with the offense Choate does want to run (counter, reverse, play action).

This x 1000 Look at Washington and Utah as 2 examples. Lots of the same formations and smashmouth football, but they run a lot of misdirection and play action.

You have to give all your coaches 2-3 years before you can even have an opinion.

Lets not be like how it usually is over here. For once have some common sense and dont think you can fix the dumpster fire you have had the last 7 years in 5 games. Change takes time.

AlphaGriz1 wrote:You have to give all your coaches 2-3 years before you can even have an opinion.

Lets not be like how it usually is over here. For once have some common sense and dont think you can fix the dumpster fire you have had the last 7 years in 5 games. Change takes time.

Yes, change takes time, and most everyone is patient for the rebuilding process. Thanks for Gregorak by the way.

However, after 5 games you can tell if a component is getting it done or not. Someone is not pulling their weight for this team.

Last year, it was Marshall. Ash wouldn't cut him loose, so he got cut. I hope Choate won't make the same mistake with Messingham.

The offense consists of Newell running up the middle and Murray running or throwing deep on broken plays i.e. making something out of nothing. This is a big reason why the Cats are 2-4. The two drives with Murray that lead to touchdowns were the best drives of the season. If they can figure out that Murray should never leave the field and continue to run the football with a two back look, the Cats should be ok moving forward. If you put Murray in obvious passing downs he will struggle, especially against a good defense. Not sure what to make of the "fire Messingham" comments I will give him a stay of execution for now. The Cats haven't even played an entire game with Murray yet. He is the best running quarterback in the Big Sky and he doesn't throw a bad looking ball either. This kid will make Messhing ham look good.

LongTimeCatFan wrote:

AlphaGriz1 wrote:You have to give all your coaches 2-3 years before you can even have an opinion.

Lets not be like how it usually is over here. For once have some common sense and dont think you can fix the dumpster fire you have had the last 7 years in 5 games. Change takes time.

Yes, change takes time, and most everyone is patient for the rebuilding process. Thanks for Gregorak by the way.

However, after 5 games you can tell if a component is getting it done or not. Someone is not pulling their weight for this team.

Last year, it was Marshall. Ash wouldn't cut him loose, so he got cut. I hope Choate won't make the same mistake with Messingham.

REALLY GLAD you are enjoying Gregorak, he has done so much for your defense..............................................and I am sure he will continue to do so.

AlphaGriz1 wrote:

LongTimeCatFan wrote:

AlphaGriz1 wrote:You have to give all your coaches 2-3 years before you can even have an opinion.

Lets not be like how it usually is over here. For once have some common sense and dont think you can fix the dumpster fire you have had the last 7 years in 5 games. Change takes time.

Yes, change takes time, and most everyone is patient for the rebuilding process. Thanks for Gregorak by the way.

However, after 5 games you can tell if a component is getting it done or not. Someone is not pulling their weight for this team.

Last year, it was Marshall. Ash wouldn't cut him loose, so he got cut. I hope Choate won't make the same mistake with Messingham.

REALLY GLAD you are enjoying Gregorak, he has done so much for your defense..............................................and I am sure he will continue to do so.

This is me laughing!

Still can't stop the triple option of Cal Poly though. Can ya?

Just an observation and not wanting to stir up crap.....

Everyone seems to quickly bash Messingham for the issues and struggles of your offense. My question is, does anyone know what role Choate plays in the offense? Does he have a say in its design, the play calling, the game planning, etc? As a head coach I'm pretty positive he must have his hands in these things, but I must admit I don't know for certain.

If so, no one seems to pin any blame on him. Maybe there's no reason to, but maybe there is. He brought Messingham on board. That was his decision. He continues to start Bruggman when it is no longer effective or smart to do so. He's done a few things with clock management that are real head scratchers. I'd also say he's done some things personnel wise that make one wonder. Is he untouchable because he's the head coach? Does Messimgham become the fall guy a bit?

I'd also pin a lot on the players and some bad decisions or execution issues. Every time they get some momentum, one seems to move the O backwards with an off sides or holding. Is Mess to blame here? Is that one more on the oline coaches?

Again I don't know all the inside info here to say who is to blame. I'm wondering if many in here do either? Please share if so.

LongTimeCatFan wrote:

AlphaGriz1 wrote:

LongTimeCatFan wrote:

AlphaGriz1 wrote:You have to give all your coaches 2-3 years before you can even have an opinion.

Lets not be like how it usually is over here. For once have some common sense and dont think you can fix the dumpster fire you have had the last 7 years in 5 games. Change takes time.

Yes, change takes time, and most everyone is patient for the rebuilding process. Thanks for Gregorak by the way.

However, after 5 games you can tell if a component is getting it done or not. Someone is not pulling their weight for this team.

Last year, it was Marshall. Ash wouldn't cut him loose, so he got cut. I hope Choate won't make the same mistake with Messingham.

REALLY GLAD you are enjoying Gregorak, he has done so much for your defense..............................................and I am sure he will continue to do so.

This is me laughing!

Still can't stop the triple option of Cal Poly though. Can ya?

We did just as good without him.....................so........................................................

AlphaGriz1 wrote:

LongTimeCatFan wrote:

AlphaGriz1 wrote:

LongTimeCatFan wrote:

AlphaGriz1 wrote:You have to give all your coaches 2-3 years before you can even have an opinion.

Lets not be like how it usually is over here. For once have some common sense and dont think you can fix the dumpster fire you have had the last 7 years in 5 games. Change takes time.

Yes, change takes time, and most everyone is patient for the rebuilding process. Thanks for Gregorak by the way.

However, after 5 games you can tell if a component is getting it done or not. Someone is not pulling their weight for this team.

Last year, it was Marshall. Ash wouldn't cut him loose, so he got cut. I hope Choate won't make the same mistake with Messingham.

REALLY GLAD you are enjoying Gregorak, he has done so much for your defense..............................................and I am sure he will continue to do so.

This is me laughing!

Still can't stop the triple option of Cal Poly though. Can ya?

We did just as good without him.....................so........................................................

So.....

Lack of execution? Speed? What?

Grizaddict wrote:Just an observation and not wanting to stir up crap.....

Everyone seems to quickly bash Messingham for the issues and struggles of your offense. My question is, does anyone know what role Choate plays in the offense? Does he have a say in its design, the play calling, the game planning, etc? As a head coach I'm pretty positive he must have his hands in these things, but I must admit I don't know for certain.

If so, no one seems to pin any blame on him. Maybe there's no reason to, but maybe there is. He brought Messingham on board. That was his decision. He continues to start Bruggman when it is no longer effective or smart to do so. He's done a few things with clock management that are real head scratchers. I'd also say he's done some things personnel wise that make one wonder. Is he untouchable because he's the head coach? Does Messimgham become the fall guy a bit?

I'd also pin a lot on the players and some bad decisions or execution issues. Every time they get some momentum, one seems to move the O backwards with an off sides or holding. Is Mess to blame here? Is that one more on the oline coaches?

Again I don't know all the inside info here to say who is to blame. I'm wondering if many in here do either? Please share if so.

Honestly Griz I think that's a great question and you shouldn't feel bad for asking it. It's been said on other boards that Messingham likely wasn't Jeff's first choice as OC, and I think that's probably correct. JC is a defensive coach, so he is going to lean harder on his OC than offensive minded coaches likely would. However, I attend every game, and I will say Choate is in EVERY offensive huddle. He's in the ear of an O-Lineman, Bruggman, Murray, Newell, or somebody else after each offensive series. He's certainly engaged.

I just don't think we have an offense. I'm not sure why. Our receivers can't catch. Our Tight End's are playing awful. I have NO IDEA what is going on with Gunner Brekke, but he is having an off year. And Chad is perpetually injured. This makes no mention of the fact we don't have a quarterback. I'm really sorry gang, but are we really ready to anoint Murray? He's not there yet (yes yes yes, with more years, more reps, more practice, more experience, 17 years old, etc. etc.), but he isn't ready today...hopefully we haven't shut down the QB recruiting pipeline.

The fact is, this staff came in hellbent on correcting what was apparently a talented defense. Mission accomplished. I think it's clear they have their project for next season; correcting the offense.

Great post.

CatsNoMatterWhat wrote:

Grizaddict wrote:Just an observation and not wanting to stir up crap.....

Everyone seems to quickly bash Messingham for the issues and struggles of your offense. My question is, does anyone know what role Choate plays in the offense? Does he have a say in its design, the play calling, the game planning, etc? As a head coach I'm pretty positive he must have his hands in these things, but I must admit I don't know for certain.

If so, no one seems to pin any blame on him. Maybe there's no reason to, but maybe there is. He brought Messingham on board. That was his decision. He continues to start Bruggman when it is no longer effective or smart to do so. He's done a few things with clock management that are real head scratchers. I'd also say he's done some things personnel wise that make one wonder. Is he untouchable because he's the head coach? Does Messimgham become the fall guy a bit?

I'd also pin a lot on the players and some bad decisions or execution issues. Every time they get some momentum, one seems to move the O backwards with an off sides or holding. Is Mess to blame here? Is that one more on the oline coaches?

Again I don't know all the inside info here to say who is to blame. I'm wondering if many in here do either? Please share if so.

Honestly Griz I think that's a great question and you shouldn't feel bad for asking it. It's been said on other boards that Messingham likely wasn't Jeff's first choice as OC, and I think that's probably correct. JC is a defensive coach, so he is going to lean harder on his OC than offensive minded coaches likely would. However, I attend every game, and I will say Choate is in EVERY offensive huddle. He's in the ear of an O-Lineman, Bruggman, Murray, Newell, or somebody else after each offensive series. He's certainly engaged.

I just don't think we have an offense. I'm not sure why. Our receivers can't catch. Our Tight End's are playing awful. I have NO IDEA what is going on with Gunner Brekke, but he is having an off year. And Chad is perpetually injured. This makes no mention of the fact we don't have a quarterback. I'm really sorry gang, but are we really ready to anoint Murray? He's not there yet (yes yes yes, with more years, more reps, more practice, more experience, 17 years old, etc. etc.), but he isn't ready today...hopefully we haven't shut down the QB recruiting pipeline.

The fact is, this staff came in hellbent on correcting what was apparently a talented defense. Mission accomplished. I think it's clear they have their project for next season; correcting the offense.

Great post.

Tremendous feedback and thanks for the level headed reply. I think that's a lot of my opinion as well. Something just seems "Off" with the offense and I believe it goes well beyond one guy (Messimgham). i understand people need to place blame somewhere, it what we naturally do, but I believe that blame needs to be on many root causes not just an OC. Thanks again.

AlphaGriz1 wrote:

LongTimeCatFan wrote:

AlphaGriz1 wrote:

LongTimeCatFan wrote:

AlphaGriz1 wrote:You have to give all your coaches 2-3 years before you can even have an opinion.

Lets not be like how it usually is over here. For once have some common sense and dont think you can fix the dumpster fire you have had the last 7 years in 5 games. Change takes time.

Yes, change takes time, and most everyone is patient for the rebuilding process. Thanks for Gregorak by the way.

However, after 5 games you can tell if a component is getting it done or not. Someone is not pulling their weight for this team.

Last year, it was Marshall. Ash wouldn't cut him loose, so he got cut. I hope Choate won't make the same mistake with Messingham.

REALLY GLAD you are enjoying Gregorak, he has done so much for your defense..............................................and I am sure he will continue to do so.

This is me laughing!

Still can't stop the triple option of Cal Poly though. Can ya?

We did just as good without him.....................so........................................................

Incorrect

under TG: Cal Poly 2015 -- 386 yds total; 330 yds rushing, 56 yds passing, 20 points
under Semen: Cal Poly 2016 -- 441 yds total; 274 rushing, 157 passing, 42 points

if by "just as good" you mean losing, then OK

so the semorian defense, with a glowing article written about how innovative and smart he/it is prior to the game, gave up more than twice the points as the apparently 'dumb' TG griz defense was.

"The man behind the defense’s success changed Montana’s traditional style into something new -- the Semorian defense."

“He coaches outside the box a little bit,” Stitt said. “He’s going to do what works rather than, ‘Oh, this is the way you’re supposed to do it.’” (to me, clearly a jab at TG from Stitt)

http://www.montanakaimin.com/sports/mon ... f3d2a.html