Kramer sheds a little light on upcoming recruiting

HelenaCat95 · Post by **HelenaCat95** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:35 am

http://www.dailyinterlake.com/articles/ ... orts01.txt

Cat Pride · Post by **Cat Pride** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:43 am

Damn the transfers! 5 years in Bozeman coach, where is the foundation of a program built through high school kids?

If you look back at who are the proven leaders and players at MSU, you will see that they are kids who came into the program as high school kids, learned the system, grew up in the system and the school, and are head and shoulders better than anyone else on the team. I dont care if the kid is from Montana, Florida or Mars, but get high school kids into MSU not transfers!!!!!!

Helcat72 · Post by **Helcat72** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:00 pm

When you have to win now, and have holes, what else can you do?

Post by **SonomaCat** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:02 pm

Yeah, transfers are bad. Ricky Gatewood, Junior Adams, Joey Thomas, Craig Ochs, Eddie Sullivan... mistakes all.

If we need more immediate help in areas where attrition has depleted the team, then we have to do what we have to do. It's pretty easy to say that we need to recruit high schoolers (which we do), but when things don't work out perfectly with each recruit, you sometimes need to change the plan and go get somebody with more experience to fill a need. It sounds like we have some needs right now.

WYCAT · Post by **WYCAT** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:08 pm

Helcat72 wrote:When you have to win now, and have holes, what else can you do?

I agree HC. We have some big holes and they need immediate fixing. I agree you would rather have the five years in the program type of players (such as Kane Ioane) in the long haul but there is nothing wrong with taking the right transfers either. With our offense in great shape and the defensive secondary looking much stronger with Smith and Hunter back next season, fixing the D-Line and LB corp by whatever means makes you a leigimate contender right away next season. If we go only with the high school theme, next season could be a wash again no matter how good the offense plays. I am especially fond of the transfers with 3 years of eligibility remaining, i.e. Joey Thomas, Doroski, Matakis, etc.

I remember a thread from a few months ago where we discussed how we are always filling holes on the offense with transfers and the defense seemed to be built with high school recruits and that is why the defense was stronger and the offense continually struggled. My how quickly things change huh?

wbtfg · Post by **wbtfg** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:24 pm

I think Kramer and staff have done a great job of mixing in transfers and transfers. I think Kramer has done a great job thus far of building a solid program, and I for one and not going to question his recruiting skills because we getting good players who are becoming great because of our fabulous coaching staff.

Cat Pride · Post by **Cat Pride** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:26 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:Yeah, transfers are bad. Ricky Gatewood, Junior Adams, Joey Thomas, Craig Ochs, Eddie Sullivan... mistakes all.

Dont make me list the many many many more transfers who didnt pan out. I'd wager that for every Ricky Gatewood, there are at least 2 JCs who didnt work or even make it through the season.

As for kids like Jr. Adams, Joey Thomas, Craig Ochs....those guys are D-I players not JCs. There is a huge difference in my mind, but still doesnt instantly make them a success. Look at Rodamer at UM - couldnt even make it through the season, or Martin Henderson at MSU - couldnt even make it through the seaosn, Aaron Hill couldnt make grades, etc etc...

Do we need to fill holes, yes, my complaint is why are there so many holes needing to be fixed? Why havent we developed depth yet in this program? If we need to fill a hole with an occasional JC or DI kid, fine, but we should also be supplementing those guys with HS kids to be redshirted while the transfer plugs a need hole. Or better yet, be more adept at developing redshirts and sophomores so they can step in themselves the following year so there is no need to find a JC.

BelgradeBobcat · Post by **BelgradeBobcat** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:31 pm

Question: Who do we have coming up through the ranks, or coming off a redshirt, who could contribute next season-especially at linebacker and d-line?

Aaron Papich
Ryan Cogley
Epi King
Travis Nellermore (was listed as o-line though)

I think there's a major sense of urgency on Kramer's part. We have to win next season. We don't have the time to rebuild.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:38 pm

Cat Pride wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:Yeah, transfers are bad. Ricky Gatewood, Junior Adams, Joey Thomas, Craig Ochs, Eddie Sullivan... mistakes all.
Dont make me list the many many many more transfers who didnt pan out. I'd wager that for every Ricky Gatewood, there are at least 2 JCs who didnt work or even make it through the season.

As for kids like Jr. Adams, Joey Thomas, Craig Ochs....those guys are D-I players not JCs. There is a huge difference in my mind, but still doesnt instantly make them a success. Look at Rodamer at UM - couldnt even make it through the season, or Martin Henderson at MSU - couldnt even make it through the seaosn, Aaron Hill couldnt make grades, etc etc...

Do we need to fill holes, yes, my complaint is why are there so many holes needing to be fixed? Why havent we developed depth yet in this program? If we need to fill a hole with an occasional JC or DI kid, fine, but we should also be supplementing those guys with HS kids to be redshirted while the transfer plugs a need hole. Or better yet, be more adept at developing redshirts and sophomores so they can step in themselves the following year so there is no need to find a JC.

We probably haven't developed the depth because high school kids, on average, don't work out at any better rate than JC's -- maybe even less so. Recruiting is an inexact science. I'm sure every coach in the country would love to scientifically recruit players that will step right into the spot needed when a player graduates after being in the program for a couple years, but it just doesn't work out that way. Kids quit, kids don't even show up, kids turn out to not have what it takes to excel at the college level... anything can happen. Being a 1-AA program, we have even less ability to stockpile tons of depth to guard against that sort of attrition, so JC's (and in more recent times, I-A dropdowns) are essential for every team in the country. Everybody finds themselves having immediate needs, and we have to expect that we won't be the sole exception.

That being said, I will be really curious to see how many guys coming off their redshirt season are able to come in and produce right away. We don't want to have to rely upon those guys, though. If they step up and earn the spots, beating out the JC guys, that's great. But as we saw at corner this year, you can never have too much depth, so if we can build some depth by bringing in some proven JC or I-A guys, I'm all for it.

wbtfg · Post by **wbtfg** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:42 pm

After reading through some of the posts, didn't kramer say something about how he'd never recruit a transfer again? Something about how they rarely ever pan out and how they're a cancer to the program?

It seems to like this happend sometime after the whole Aaron Hill debacle, so he may have only been talking about I-A drop downs. Anyone else remember Krames saying anything like that in the past?

PDXKat · Post by **PDXKat** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:53 pm

I'll bet we don't get more than 4-5 transfers and the rest high schoolers. For the high school kids we'll look in state first, if we don't get who we want we'll get them from wherever we can. We must feel pretty good about offense, only using four scholarships there and several of them will be lineman and hopefully a good youg qb as well. It seems that we should get a qb at least every 2 years. I know the last time we had a big gap between qb's we got sort of lucky. On defense, it seems we have no choice but to find a few transfers, either drop downs or jc guys. I'm certain the the ship will be "righted" on defense when the season starts.

CelticCat · Post by **CelticCat** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:15 pm

I don't care where we get the players, (though I love having Montana kids) but we need to win next season. We must make the playoffs. I feel if Kramer misses the playoffs again next year, he may be a victim of his own success. I don't know about you guys, but making the playoffs the last 2 years in a row before this season, to finishing 4th in the BSC is a huge dissapointment to me. Kramer built this program up and gave us great expectations, but if he can't deliver next season, then I wouldn't be surprised to hear his job is on line.

As far as recruits go, we need tough, physical defensive players. For the most part this year, our D was above average. We only allowed about 20 points a game up until that Sac St debacle. But I think the D just wore down as the season went on, due to some lack of depth. We either need to have a lot of solid depth, of find some players who can play 100% all season. If we can hold opponents to a 20 PPG average for the season, I see no reason why we can't make the playoffs with ease. I just hope someone steps up and is a consistent runner on offensive.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:20 pm

Just a small correction -- we finished third in the conference, tied with PSU at 4-3. It's all pretty much irrelevent after first, though.

HelenaCat95 · Post by **HelenaCat95** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:26 pm

I agree 100% with Celtic Cat.
I think Kramer knows that next year is the year that expectations must become reality. And I think he figures that making the playoffs, while good, may not be good enough. We need to WIN and go further than the first round.
If we do not make the playoffs, or if we do but still lose the first game, will Kramer keep his job? I don't think anyone can figure that one out yet. It depends on a lot of factors. But I think Kramer is smart enough to know that if we do go deep into the playoffs, with a couple of home games, then he is assurred of keeping on as MSU coach, and probably has a chance at moving up to a 1-A whose program may need a turnaround.
Looking at who returns on both sides of the ball (especially offense) we have the chance of doing very, very well - we just have some holes to fill. After next year, we could be in a rebuilding year.
Next year is the year

wbtfg · Post by **wbtfg** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:30 pm

So does anyone know if Figs is coming back next year or not? Everything that I have heard says that he IS coming back, but that newspaper article says that we are losing him. Hopefully this doesn't turn into another situation like we had with Mataio.

HelenaCat95 · Post by **HelenaCat95** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:33 pm

I'd swear that I heard Kramer say on the Coaches show about 3 weeks ago that Figs was coming back. I think petitioned for, and received a medical redshirt for last year when he broke his leg.
I think the newspaper did not ask Kramer the question, just simply went through the roster to see who were seniors this year.

canyoncat · Post by **canyoncat** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:58 pm

The main problem I have with the lack of depth on the D-line is the constant moving of promising D-linemen to the O-Line. Just in the last two years Kramer has moved Birkeland, Nellermoe and now Saucedo. I realize that our defense is built on speed, but I think we need some more beef to plug the middle. Birkeland, Nellermoe and Saucedo would have made a pretty good rotatioin at DT along with Rogers and Papich next year. With DeCock, Watson, Smith, Beniger, Brewton, Brockway and Fjare backing up the starters, I hope Saucedo and Nellermoe are moved back to Defense. But what do I know, I am only an arm chair coach

GO CATS!!

wbtfg · Post by **wbtfg** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:04 pm

I have complete that Coach Kwiatkowski knows exactly what he's doing. This year was the first year in the last 3 or 4 where we haven't had the best D in the BSC, and I think that if we were healthy that we would have had the top D once again.

CARDIAC_CATS · Post by **CARDIAC_CATS** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:12 pm

canyoncat wrote:The main problem I have with the lack of depth on the D-line is the constant moving of promising D-linemen to the O-Line. Just in the last two years Kramer has moved Birkeland, Nellermoe and now Saucedo. I realize that our defense is built on speed, but I think we need some more beef to plug the middle. Birkeland, Nellermoe and Saucedo would have made a pretty good rotatioin at DT along with Rogers and Papich next year. With DeCock, Watson, Smith, Beniger, Brewton, Brockway and Fjare backing up the starters, I hope Saucedo and Nellermoe are moved back to Defense. But what do I know, I am only an arm chair coach

GO CATS!!

First, FIGS is coming back next year. He got his medical hardship to go through.

Kramer WILL try and get every good Montana kid he can. However, if it comes down to a 'good' Montana kid or an excellent transfer ... he's going to take the transfer I'm betting until he can get a new defensive base established. To me, this season on defense is the exact reverse of our team last year. Last year we needed secondary and this year we need DL. So it will be a combo of guys already in our system and transfers. Rogers was a heck of a pickup last year and hopefully O'tool/Matakis/Lowe as well can work hard in the offseason and get bigger/quicker.

I think Birkland and Saucedo need to be transferred back to DL this next year??? They are bigger/physical guys we can sure use in there. I heard Birland was a heck of a DT in high school (never did see him play). Saucedo just his size alone can plug a gap/demand maybe a double team. So depending on what we get for recruits/transfers this year, I would like to move one of those guys back considering how deep we are at OL. What about that Laurel OL kid too? That guy looks like he is a LOAD! Small compact and powerful.

We might as well face it, most of the stud kids in high school in Montana are going to the UMMMMM. We need to keep recruiting the ones that slip through their hands as well as the ones that have families that are Bobcats. Get the best we can get (like we have been doing), but not be satisified just to go after Montana kids just because they are Montana kids. There are some darn good JC schools in California etc. where we can draw excellent talent from. Gatewood/Guinn worked out well I thought for 1 year in the program. Hopefully Eddie Smith/Lindsey and Co. will be gems as well. We definately need some new BEEF up front on our DL though.

BozoneCat · Post by **BozoneCat** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:26 pm

We only burned 1 redshirt this year - I think that says a lot about the depth we are finally starting to build in our program.

I don't mind getting transfers at all, but I would like to see them minimized to 3-5 if at all possible. Which is exactly where we are right now, I think. If this defense can get turned back around, we will be a powerhouse next year. If not, we might have to settle for 6 or 7 wins again.