Choate 2.0

[onceacat]

Choate was phenomenal when he was here, really helped build the program back up…. But he would be a significant step backwards at this point.

I'm not sure about that. Different situations. Choate came to Bozeman and got a program basically in shambles, and in 4 years rebuilt it into MSU's first semi final team in 36 years. Vigen has taken it 1 step further and got us to Frisco. But Choate had a much, much heavier lift.

I'd hate to lose Vigen but if/when he moves on, I'd certainly put Choate in my list of candidates to interview, if he applied.

That pretty badly oversells it. Cats made the playoffs (and lost embarrassingly) in 2014. In 2015, the Cats were 5-6.

Choate CREATED shambles his first year despite having an absolutely stacked offense and made a mediocre team worse...although he turned around the D in a big hurry.

The revisionist history here cracks me up. Choate is a GREAT Defensive coach. He (along with Gregorak) turned around one of the worst Bobcat Defesnses (2015) ever into a really solid unit.

He did an equally impressive job turning the offense around, only the offense didn't need it. He even said as much in his own press conferences...

Long story short? Id take Choate as a DC in a heartbeat. He brought a physicality and team cohesion that Ash had let go. But until he learns how to coach an offense, no way. He can learn to coach offense on someone else's dime.

It's not over selling it. It's not revisionist.
Maybe the word shambles was too strong but the fact is, the program was in bad shape. I mean, we fired our friggin coach for Pete's sake! We missed the playoffs in DeNarius's senior season, then somehow managed to go 7-4 the next year and squeak into the first round of the playoffs and be 1 and done, then another year of missing the playoffs in 2015.

You saying the offense was stacked, is over selling it. Who was the QB?? Yes Newell, Herbert, and JP Flynn were great but its hard to do much with that when your senior QB transfers to Oregon.

I'm really surprised that so many in our fan base who loved Choate when he was here now think he sucks as a head coach. I guess we just remember that era differently.

Gunnar Brekke, Nick LaSane, Chad Newell & Logan Jones at RB. An unknown Chris Murray backing them up.

NFL talent JP Flynn plus two Brotts, Alex Neale, Taylor Tuisassopo...an all time great O Line.

You don't need a great QB when you have an O-Line & a stable of running backs like that. How about "The most stacked offense MSU has ever seen except at QB."

Again, credit where credit is due: Ash was losing his grip as a coach & the team was stuck in mediocrity. Choate addressed a lot of the things that Ash had let slide. Physicality. Team cohesion. Playing with passion. Understanding modern defense.

Like I said, I'd take him as DC in a heartbeat.

Its just that he understands less about offense than half the posters here on BN.

[GoldstoneCat]

Choate was phenomenal when he was here, really helped build the program back up…. But he would be a significant step backwards at this point.

I'm not sure about that. Different situations. Choate came to Bozeman and got a program basically in shambles, and in 4 years rebuilt it into MSU's first semi final team in 36 years. Vigen has taken it 1 step further and got us to Frisco. But Choate had a much, much heavier lift.

I'd hate to lose Vigen but if/when he moves on, I'd certainly put Choate in my list of candidates to interview, if he applied.

That pretty badly oversells it. Cats made the playoffs (and lost embarrassingly) in 2014. In 2015, the Cats were 5-6.

Choate CREATED shambles his first year despite having an absolutely stacked offense and made a mediocre team worse...although he turned around the D in a big hurry.

The revisionist history here cracks me up. Choate is a GREAT Defensive coach. He (along with Gregorak) turned around one of the worst Bobcat Defesnses (2015) ever into a really solid unit.

He did an equally impressive job turning the offense around, only the offense didn't need it. He even said as much in his own press conferences...

Long story short? Id take Choate as a DC in a heartbeat. He brought a physicality and team cohesion that Ash had let go. But until he learns how to coach an offense, no way. He can learn to coach offense on someone else's dime.

It's not over selling it. It's not revisionist.
Maybe the word shambles was too strong but the fact is, the program was in bad shape. I mean, we fired our friggin coach for Pete's sake! We missed the playoffs in DeNarius's senior season, then somehow managed to go 7-4 the next year and squeak into the first round of the playoffs and be 1 and done, then another year of missing the playoffs in 2015.

You saying the offense was stacked, is over selling it. Who was the QB?? Yes Newell, Herbert, and JP Flynn were great but its hard to do much with that when your senior QB transfers to Oregon.

I'm really surprised that so many in our fan base who loved Choate when he was here now think he sucks as a head coach. I guess we just remember that era differently.

Gunnar Brekke, Nick LaSane, Chad Newell & Logan Jones at RB. An unknown Chris Murray backing them up.

NFL talent JP Flynn plus two Brotts, Alex Neale, Taylor Tuisassopo...an all time great O Line.

You don't need a great QB when you have an O-Line & a stable of running backs like that. How about "The most stacked offense MSU has ever seen except at QB."

Again, credit where credit is due: Ash was losing his grip as a coach & the team was stuck in mediocrity. Choate addressed a lot of the things that Ash had let slide. Physicality. Team cohesion. Playing with passion. Understanding modern defense.

Like I said, I'd take him as DC in a heartbeat.

Its just that he understands less about offense than half the posters here on BN.

You and I pretty much agree on this, I think. Especially in the rebuild of the team culture that had slid. I think he had a good eye for defensive talent (captain obvious lol) but as far as being a schematic genius, I don't know if I would agree. Look at the 2021 defense with a lot of the same faces that Choate brought in. They changed to Freddy Banks' version of the NDSU 4-2-5 and carried us to Frisco. The big difference that has allowed us to get to where we are is having a coach who can articulate a vision and an identity on both sides of the ball, implement the principles of a system that feeds that identity (inside, outside or split zone run game on offense, 4-2-5, sound physical defense) and then empowers a coaching staff to put their stamp on those principles while still staying involved on both sides and acting as the CEO of this entity that is a modern college program.
I'll sum up my opinion with this thought: I think Vigen is a superior coach to Jason Eck. Do any of us think UNM would trade coaches with Nevada today?

[nanacat]

I think it was Tootell who mentioned that Vigen has finally accomplished his goals of the NDSU style of football he's been aiming for, specifically no real "stars" but just a machine. He talked about Vigen taking what was here when he came, allowing them to do their thing, be the stars, which Choate focused on creating more (stars), according to Tootell. But now no one player is having mind boggling numbers but they're playing complimentary football very successfully.

[BelligerentBobcat]

I think it was Tootell who mentioned that Vigen has finally accomplished his goals of the NDSU style of football he's been aiming for, specifically no real "stars" but just a machine. He talked about Vigen taking what was here when he came, allowing them to do their thing, be the stars, which Choate focused on creating more (stars), according to Tootell. But now no one player is having mind boggling numbers but they're playing complimentary football very successfully.

I don’t really think it’s true that there are “no stars”. The overall talent is just so good that offensively and defensively, the “ball” gets spread around. We’ll call it an NDSU thing, but Alabama under Saban was largely the same way. That’s just how it goes when teams are able to stack up that much talent. So to me, it’s not that we don’t have stars, we absolutely do, but there’s much more talent around them now than before.

[nanacat]

I think it was Tootell who mentioned that Vigen has finally accomplished his goals of the NDSU style of football he's been aiming for, specifically no real "stars" but just a machine. He talked about Vigen taking what was here when he came, allowing them to do their thing, be the stars, which Choate focused on creating more (stars), according to Tootell. But now no one player is having mind boggling numbers but they're playing complimentary football very successfully.

I don’t really think it’s true that there are “no stars”. The overall talent is just so good that offensively and defensively, the “ball” gets spread around. We’ll call it an NDSU thing, but Alabama under Saban was largely the same way. That’s just how it goes when teams are able to stack up that much talent. So to me, it’s not that we don’t have stars, we absolutely do, but there’s much more talent around them now than before.

Well that's a valid take too. I think his point was that Vigen had a goal for how his team would function, I'm sure based on his experience at NDSU. Sure can't argue with their success. Colter has mentioned several times that the Cats play 22 on defense, therefore defensive plays aren't made by 2 or 3 guys, but several at any given time. The double repping in practice, obviously winning the in state recruiting battle, developing players, all go into that. Tootell used the term "machine" and I think that's pretty accurate.

[iaafan]

I think it was Tootell who mentioned that Vigen has finally accomplished his goals of the NDSU style of football he's been aiming for, specifically no real "stars" but just a machine. He talked about Vigen taking what was here when he came, allowing them to do their thing, be the stars, which Choate focused on creating more (stars), according to Tootell. But now no one player is having mind boggling numbers but they're playing complimentary football very successfully.

Tootell isn’t especially well-versed in MSU football. I agree with him that we don’t have the Troy Andersen, Ty Okada household names. Andersen, quite frankly, was a near once in a lifetime player. Bill Kollar, Mark Fellows. The list is short.

[BelligerentBobcat]

I think it was Tootell who mentioned that Vigen has finally accomplished his goals of the NDSU style of football he's been aiming for, specifically no real "stars" but just a machine. He talked about Vigen taking what was here when he came, allowing them to do their thing, be the stars, which Choate focused on creating more (stars), according to Tootell. But now no one player is having mind boggling numbers but they're playing complimentary football very successfully.

Tootell isn’t especially well-versed in MSU football. I agree with him that we don’t have the Troy Andersen, Ty Okada household names. Andersen, quite frankly, was a near once in a lifetime player. Bill Kollar, Mark Fellows. The list is short.

Part of that is because the teams best defensive player comes at a position that doesn’t rack up stats. Paul Brott is as amazing at his position as many of those guys were at theirs.

And then, look at our CB’s. The 3 young guys are significantly better than we’ve had in years past, but because we have the depth, they rotate. Cole Taylor is every bit as good as say, Callahan O’Reilly, and will get better, but again, we rotate. Another important note, the defense gets a ton of 3 and outs, so they don’t actually get a ton of opportunities to rack up stats.

[coloradocat]

I think it was Tootell who mentioned that Vigen has finally accomplished his goals of the NDSU style of football he's been aiming for, specifically no real "stars" but just a machine. He talked about Vigen taking what was here when he came, allowing them to do their thing, be the stars, which Choate focused on creating more (stars), according to Tootell. But now no one player is having mind boggling numbers but they're playing complimentary football very successfully.

Tootell isn’t especially well-versed in MSU football. I agree with him that we don’t have the Troy Andersen, Ty Okada household names. Andersen, quite frankly, was a near once in a lifetime player. Bill Kollar, Mark Fellows. The list is short.

Taco is a household name, and not just because it's a quirky name.

The team has the depth at this point that it doesn't have to rely on one or two guys to break the other team but if you asked opponents if the Bobcats have stars they would say Taco on offense and Brott on defense without even thinking about the question. The opposing coaches would also likely consider Lamson a star. If we didn't have Lamson I'm not sure we'd be such a "machine" on offense.

[onceacat]

I think it was Tootell who mentioned that Vigen has finally accomplished his goals of the NDSU style of football he's been aiming for, specifically no real "stars" but just a machine. He talked about Vigen taking what was here when he came, allowing them to do their thing, be the stars, which Choate focused on creating more (stars), according to Tootell. But now no one player is having mind boggling numbers but they're playing complimentary football very successfully.

That doesn't pass the smell test. How many 'stars' have wee seen from NDSU over the last decade? A lot, including probably 5 or 7 first round NFL draft picks.

Edit: 3 1st rounders & 3 second rounders in the last decade. Including a number 2 and number 3 draft pick QB. 4 QBs drafted.

Those are 'stars' by any stretch of the imagination.

[onceacat]

I think it was Tootell who mentioned that Vigen has finally accomplished his goals of the NDSU style of football he's been aiming for, specifically no real "stars" but just a machine. He talked about Vigen taking what was here when he came, allowing them to do their thing, be the stars, which Choate focused on creating more (stars), according to Tootell. But now no one player is having mind boggling numbers but they're playing complimentary football very successfully.

Tootell isn’t especially well-versed in MSU football. I agree with him that we don’t have the Troy Andersen, Ty Okada household names. Andersen, quite frankly, was a near once in a lifetime player. Bill Kollar, Mark Fellows. The list is short.

Part of that is because the teams best defensive player comes at a position that doesn’t rack up stats. Paul Brott is as amazing at his position as many of those guys were at theirs.

And then, look at our CB’s. The 3 young guys are significantly better than we’ve had in years past, but because we have the depth, they rotate. Cole Taylor is every bit as good as say, Callahan O’Reilly, and will get better, but again, we rotate. Another important note, the defense gets a ton of 3 and outs, so they don’t actually get a ton of opportunities to rack up stats.

I pushed back a lot on the 'stats are for losers' page...but generally speaking, individual stats for defensive players are pretty meaningless. A good CB will usually have terrible PBU & INT stats because QBs won't throw his direction. A great interior lineman like Brott won't get good stats because his entire job is to take up double teams & let the edge & LBs rack up tackles & TFLs.

And, yeah, obviously if your D gets off the field a lot & subs in the backups in the 4th quarter, that limits overall numbers.

Its also really easy for a D player to rack up great stats in a single game against an overmatched opponent...who was the Buchanan winner here that got 6 sacks against a D2 team?

[Montanabob]

woah, Reno blows out SJSU. 55-10....

[onceacat]

woah, Reno blows out SJSU. 55-10....

Snaps a 14 game losing streak (vs FBS).

3-19 against the FBS.

[AFCAT]

The Choate Pack wins a game in convincing fashion. Congrats!