How do Cats stack up against Griz

[BelligerentBobcat]

Points allowed by quarter in conference games:

Cats
Q1 - 2.8
Q2 - 2.6
Q3 - 0.0
Q4 - 4.8

That is absolutely ridiculous. Essentially 5 points per game allowed by the starters, and most of that scoring has been done by Idaho State.

[technoCat]

RB: Griz

Both teams have good backfields, but Gilman is the best RB in the conference; his production behind a poor OL is pretty incredible.

MSU is better at RB. Gillman is good and you can argue he’s better than Davis or Jones but MSU’s situation at RB is better.

I disagree. It's nothing that anyone can prove, but I think that if you put the UM backs in MSU's system and behind their OL, the rushing production would be even greater for MSU.

I see how you’re presenting it, but UM isn’t as productive at RB, nor the run game. It’s not an edge to have players that are better if they’re not more productive. I think that needs to be acknowledged.

Aren't they?

UM's top 2 rushers-- Gilman and Wortham-- have rushed 192 times for 1202 yards, 6.3 YPC.

MSU's top 2 rushers-- Davis and Jones-- have rushed 187 times for 1146 yards, 6.1 YPC.

MSU's total rushing stats are better, but that's largely impacted by the fact that they get rushing production out of the QB position where UM does not, and they're overall a superior team that wins by larger margins, meaning that they're salting games away running Coon or White.

Now I am not at all trying to tear down Davis and Jones. They're great backs and it's a great backfield. But I think we all agree that the MSU OL is quite a bit better than the UM OL. And I believe that OL play is actually the most important factor to a successful rushing attack. RB play is obviously important, but it's secondary to the quality of the blocking. For example-- the Bison have had a dominant rushing attack for upwards of a decade, and while they have put a few RB's into the NFL, it's their offensive linemen that get drafted highly and end up as starters.

So I look at the rushing production at UM-- especially from Gilman-- and see production that, among the top players, is on par with MSU and yet is being created behind a lesser line.

I actually think it's a feather in MSU's cap that it's such a close call. They lost their best back to UNM, while the Griz didn't lose anyone. You'd think it would be a very easy call in light of that, but MSU's depth has meant that it's still fairly comparable.

So I'm confused why you restrict to 2 but then include a wr. Why not include qbs if we are just talking run game or just rbs if that's what we're talking about? Overall in conference, we are 500 yards ahead in production. I just think if, God forbid, either team loses their top back, we still know where to get production where as UM is in a bit of panic mode.

[iaafan]

UM running backs:
Gillman/Wortham 192-1202-6.3
Rocker 35-205-5.8
Fonoti 28-106-3.8
Total: 255-1514-5.9

MSU
Davis/Jones 187-1146-6.1
Colson 27-230-8.5
White 25-110-4.4
Total: 239-1486-6.2

Could include Dowler or remove Wortham but didn’t and MSU is still doing better at the RB position.

[MrGoodKat]

Points allowed by quarter in conference games:

Cats
Q1 - 2.8
Q2 - 2.6
Q3 - 0.0
Q4 - 4.8

griz
Q1 - 4.0
Q2 - 10.0
Q3 - 5.8
Q4 - 6.0

Really good observation. 47% of points allowed by the Cats come in garbage time. That number is only 23% for the Griz, which is even a little bit misleading because they haven't as consistently put teams away by Q4.

[MrGoodKat]

UM running backs:
Gillman/Wortham 192-1202-6.3
Rocker 35-205-5.8
Fonoti 28-106-3.8
Total: 255-1514-5.9

MSU
Davis/Jones 187-1146-6.1
Colson 27-230-8.5
White 25-110-4.4
Total: 239-1486-6.2

Could include Dowler or remove Wortham but didn’t and MSU is still doing better at the RB position.

Statistically. If you're just going to use the stats, then there doesn't even need to be a discussion. But there are obviously other factors involved.

Statistically, Ah Yat has been much more productive in the passing game than Lamson. But if you dig into the numbers, Lamson has been a better player in nearly every facet of the position short of total yardage.

[coloradocat]

Points allowed by quarter in conference games:

Cats
Q1 - 2.8
Q2 - 2.6
Q3 - 0.0
Q4 - 4.8

griz
Q1 - 4.0
Q2 - 10.0
Q3 - 5.8
Q4 - 6.0

Really good observation. 47% of points allowed by the Cats come in garbage time. That number is only 23% for the Griz, which is even a little bit misleading because they haven't as consistently put teams away by Q4.

And the 4Q is not only our worst quarter but it would also be the second best quarter for the griz. I would say that the griz 23% isn't misleading at all. It's indicative of the fact that as good as their offense is, their defense is keeping opponents in the games at least some of the time.

[MrGoodKat]

RB: Griz

Both teams have good backfields, but Gilman is the best RB in the conference; his production behind a poor OL is pretty incredible.

MSU is better at RB. Gillman is good and you can argue he’s better than Davis or Jones but MSU’s situation at RB is better.

I disagree. It's nothing that anyone can prove, but I think that if you put the UM backs in MSU's system and behind their OL, the rushing production would be even greater for MSU.

I see how you’re presenting it, but UM isn’t as productive at RB, nor the run game. It’s not an edge to have players that are better if they’re not more productive. I think that needs to be acknowledged.

Aren't they?

UM's top 2 rushers-- Gilman and Wortham-- have rushed 192 times for 1202 yards, 6.3 YPC.

MSU's top 2 rushers-- Davis and Jones-- have rushed 187 times for 1146 yards, 6.1 YPC.

MSU's total rushing stats are better, but that's largely impacted by the fact that they get rushing production out of the QB position where UM does not, and they're overall a superior team that wins by larger margins, meaning that they're salting games away running Coon or White.

Now I am not at all trying to tear down Davis and Jones. They're great backs and it's a great backfield. But I think we all agree that the MSU OL is quite a bit better than the UM OL. And I believe that OL play is actually the most important factor to a successful rushing attack. RB play is obviously important, but it's secondary to the quality of the blocking. For example-- the Bison have had a dominant rushing attack for upwards of a decade, and while they have put a few RB's into the NFL, it's their offensive linemen that get drafted highly and end up as starters.

So I look at the rushing production at UM-- especially from Gilman-- and see production that, among the top players, is on par with MSU and yet is being created behind a lesser line.

I actually think it's a feather in MSU's cap that it's such a close call. They lost their best back to UNM, while the Griz didn't lose anyone. You'd think it would be a very easy call in light of that, but MSU's depth has meant that it's still fairly comparable.

So I'm confused why you restrict to 2 but then include a wr. Why not include qbs if we are just talking run game or just rbs if that's what we're talking about? Overall in conference, we are 500 yards ahead in production. I just think if, God forbid, either team loses their top back, we still know where to get production where as UM is in a bit of panic mode.

I'm including a WR because he often plays RB and he gets the second most carries on the team. No doubt, the Cats have been much more productive in the QB running game, which is one reason why I think MSU has the edge at that position over the Griz. But you wouldn't say that Lamson plays running back. He rushes the ball effectively from the QB position. Wortham, on the other hand, doesn't only rush the ball as a WR (e.g. a sweep)-- he actually plays RB pretty often.

I actually think that the two teams are similarly positioned to lose their top back. Rocker is a good player, as is Coon.

[MrGoodKat]

Points allowed by quarter in conference games:

Cats
Q1 - 2.8
Q2 - 2.6
Q3 - 0.0
Q4 - 4.8

griz
Q1 - 4.0
Q2 - 10.0
Q3 - 5.8
Q4 - 6.0

Really good observation. 47% of points allowed by the Cats come in garbage time. That number is only 23% for the Griz, which is even a little bit misleading because they haven't as consistently put teams away by Q4.

And the 4Q is not only our worst quarter but it would also be the second best quarter for the griz. I would say that the griz 23% isn't misleading at all. It's indicative of the fact that as good as their offense is, their defense is keeping opponents in the games at least some of the time.

Here's what I mean when I say it's misleading:

The Cats allowing nearly half of their total points in the 4th Quarter is clearly a by-product of putting games away early and playing subs. The narrowest lead that MSU has held in a Q4 of any conference game is 10 points (CP), the point obviously being that MSU's defense is even better than their remarkably low statistical output. If they left starters in for then entirety of games, they might be allowing something like 5-7 PPG in BSC play.

The Griz, on the other hand, have held a lead of less than 10 points into Q4 in three of their conference games. Twice, it's been a one-score contest in Q4. The point being that UM's games have been competitive to the very end more often than not. Therefore, the points that they allow in Q4 are not as often the result of garbage time and subs, but rather are the result of their starting defense just getting beat.

[technoCat]

RB: Griz

Both teams have good backfields, but Gilman is the best RB in the conference; his production behind a poor OL is pretty incredible.

MSU is better at RB. Gillman is good and you can argue he’s better than Davis or Jones but MSU’s situation at RB is better.

I disagree. It's nothing that anyone can prove, but I think that if you put the UM backs in MSU's system and behind their OL, the rushing production would be even greater for MSU.

I see how you’re presenting it, but UM isn’t as productive at RB, nor the run game. It’s not an edge to have players that are better if they’re not more productive. I think that needs to be acknowledged.

Aren't they?

UM's top 2 rushers-- Gilman and Wortham-- have rushed 192 times for 1202 yards, 6.3 YPC.

MSU's top 2 rushers-- Davis and Jones-- have rushed 187 times for 1146 yards, 6.1 YPC.

MSU's total rushing stats are better, but that's largely impacted by the fact that they get rushing production out of the QB position where UM does not, and they're overall a superior team that wins by larger margins, meaning that they're salting games away running Coon or White.

Now I am not at all trying to tear down Davis and Jones. They're great backs and it's a great backfield. But I think we all agree that the MSU OL is quite a bit better than the UM OL. And I believe that OL play is actually the most important factor to a successful rushing attack. RB play is obviously important, but it's secondary to the quality of the blocking. For example-- the Bison have had a dominant rushing attack for upwards of a decade, and while they have put a few RB's into the NFL, it's their offensive linemen that get drafted highly and end up as starters.

So I look at the rushing production at UM-- especially from Gilman-- and see production that, among the top players, is on par with MSU and yet is being created behind a lesser line.

I actually think it's a feather in MSU's cap that it's such a close call. They lost their best back to UNM, while the Griz didn't lose anyone. You'd think it would be a very easy call in light of that, but MSU's depth has meant that it's still fairly comparable.

So I'm confused why you restrict to 2 but then include a wr. Why not include qbs if we are just talking run game or just rbs if that's what we're talking about? Overall in conference, we are 500 yards ahead in production. I just think if, God forbid, either team loses their top back, we still know where to get production where as UM is in a bit of panic mode.

I'm including a WR because he often plays RB and he gets the second most carries on the team. No doubt, the Cats have been much more productive in the QB running game, which is one reason why I think MSU has the edge at that position over the Griz. But you wouldn't say that Lamson plays running back. He rushes the ball effectively from the QB position. Wortham, on the other hand, doesn't only rush the ball as a WR (e.g. a sweep)-- he actually plays RB pretty often.

I actually think that the two teams are similarly positioned to lose their top back. Rocker is a good player, as is Coon.

Our second back is Davis. Wortham is not carrying the running game for the Griz. And he has 27 more yards than Coon on 11 more carries. Rocker is a decent rb but only averages 4.5 a carry which is almost half of Coon's.

Plus if, again heaven forbid, Wortham was to get hurt, it would be a much bigger impact on the Griz than any one of our guys. Im just saying our overall run game is in a much better place that for UM.

[MrGoodKat]

RB: Griz

Both teams have good backfields, but Gilman is the best RB in the conference; his production behind a poor OL is pretty incredible.

MSU is better at RB. Gillman is good and you can argue he’s better than Davis or Jones but MSU’s situation at RB is better.

I disagree. It's nothing that anyone can prove, but I think that if you put the UM backs in MSU's system and behind their OL, the rushing production would be even greater for MSU.

I see how you’re presenting it, but UM isn’t as productive at RB, nor the run game. It’s not an edge to have players that are better if they’re not more productive. I think that needs to be acknowledged.

Aren't they?

UM's top 2 rushers-- Gilman and Wortham-- have rushed 192 times for 1202 yards, 6.3 YPC.

MSU's top 2 rushers-- Davis and Jones-- have rushed 187 times for 1146 yards, 6.1 YPC.

MSU's total rushing stats are better, but that's largely impacted by the fact that they get rushing production out of the QB position where UM does not, and they're overall a superior team that wins by larger margins, meaning that they're salting games away running Coon or White.

Now I am not at all trying to tear down Davis and Jones. They're great backs and it's a great backfield. But I think we all agree that the MSU OL is quite a bit better than the UM OL. And I believe that OL play is actually the most important factor to a successful rushing attack. RB play is obviously important, but it's secondary to the quality of the blocking. For example-- the Bison have had a dominant rushing attack for upwards of a decade, and while they have put a few RB's into the NFL, it's their offensive linemen that get drafted highly and end up as starters.

So I look at the rushing production at UM-- especially from Gilman-- and see production that, among the top players, is on par with MSU and yet is being created behind a lesser line.

I actually think it's a feather in MSU's cap that it's such a close call. They lost their best back to UNM, while the Griz didn't lose anyone. You'd think it would be a very easy call in light of that, but MSU's depth has meant that it's still fairly comparable.

So I'm confused why you restrict to 2 but then include a wr. Why not include qbs if we are just talking run game or just rbs if that's what we're talking about? Overall in conference, we are 500 yards ahead in production. I just think if, God forbid, either team loses their top back, we still know where to get production where as UM is in a bit of panic mode.

I'm including a WR because he often plays RB and he gets the second most carries on the team. No doubt, the Cats have been much more productive in the QB running game, which is one reason why I think MSU has the edge at that position over the Griz. But you wouldn't say that Lamson plays running back. He rushes the ball effectively from the QB position. Wortham, on the other hand, doesn't only rush the ball as a WR (e.g. a sweep)-- he actually plays RB pretty often.

I actually think that the two teams are similarly positioned to lose their top back. Rocker is a good player, as is Coon.

Our second back is Davis. Wortham is not carrying the running game for the Griz. And he has 27 more yards than Coon on 11 more carries. Rocker is a decent rb but only averages 4.5 a carry which is almost half of Coon's.

Plus if, again heaven forbid, Wortham was to get hurt, it would be a much bigger impact on the Griz than any one of our guys. Im just saying our overall run game is in a much better place that for UM.

Rocker is actually at 5.9 YPC. What I'm saying is that if they lost Gilman and they rolled with Rocker, Wortham, and Fonoti, I think that in terms of talent that's basically comparable to what the Cats would be working with if they lost Davis and were rolling with Jones, Coon, and White. But the fact is that neither team has lost their starting RB, which is excellent, and I believe Gilman is the best back in the BSC, so I give the edge at the position to UM. If Gilman was a Cat, he would be leading the nation in rushing.

Now where we agree is on how screwed UM would be if Wortham got injured. From what I've seen of the Griz this year, he is the straw that stirs the drink for them. I have not seen a single offensive player this season at the FCS level who is better than he is.

[technoCat]

RB: Griz

Both teams have good backfields, but Gilman is the best RB in the conference; his production behind a poor OL is pretty incredible.

MSU is better at RB. Gillman is good and you can argue he’s better than Davis or Jones but MSU’s situation at RB is better.

I disagree. It's nothing that anyone can prove, but I think that if you put the UM backs in MSU's system and behind their OL, the rushing production would be even greater for MSU.

I see how you’re presenting it, but UM isn’t as productive at RB, nor the run game. It’s not an edge to have players that are better if they’re not more productive. I think that needs to be acknowledged.

Aren't they?

UM's top 2 rushers-- Gilman and Wortham-- have rushed 192 times for 1202 yards, 6.3 YPC.

MSU's top 2 rushers-- Davis and Jones-- have rushed 187 times for 1146 yards, 6.1 YPC.

MSU's total rushing stats are better, but that's largely impacted by the fact that they get rushing production out of the QB position where UM does not, and they're overall a superior team that wins by larger margins, meaning that they're salting games away running Coon or White.

Now I am not at all trying to tear down Davis and Jones. They're great backs and it's a great backfield. But I think we all agree that the MSU OL is quite a bit better than the UM OL. And I believe that OL play is actually the most important factor to a successful rushing attack. RB play is obviously important, but it's secondary to the quality of the blocking. For example-- the Bison have had a dominant rushing attack for upwards of a decade, and while they have put a few RB's into the NFL, it's their offensive linemen that get drafted highly and end up as starters.

So I look at the rushing production at UM-- especially from Gilman-- and see production that, among the top players, is on par with MSU and yet is being created behind a lesser line.

I actually think it's a feather in MSU's cap that it's such a close call. They lost their best back to UNM, while the Griz didn't lose anyone. You'd think it would be a very easy call in light of that, but MSU's depth has meant that it's still fairly comparable.

So I'm confused why you restrict to 2 but then include a wr. Why not include qbs if we are just talking run game or just rbs if that's what we're talking about? Overall in conference, we are 500 yards ahead in production. I just think if, God forbid, either team loses their top back, we still know where to get production where as UM is in a bit of panic mode.

I'm including a WR because he often plays RB and he gets the second most carries on the team. No doubt, the Cats have been much more productive in the QB running game, which is one reason why I think MSU has the edge at that position over the Griz. But you wouldn't say that Lamson plays running back. He rushes the ball effectively from the QB position. Wortham, on the other hand, doesn't only rush the ball as a WR (e.g. a sweep)-- he actually plays RB pretty often.

I actually think that the two teams are similarly positioned to lose their top back. Rocker is a good player, as is Coon.

Our second back is Davis. Wortham is not carrying the running game for the Griz. And he has 27 more yards than Coon on 11 more carries. Rocker is a decent rb but only averages 4.5 a carry which is almost half of Coon's.

Plus if, again heaven forbid, Wortham was to get hurt, it would be a much bigger impact on the Griz than any one of our guys. Im just saying our overall run game is in a much better place that for UM.

Rocker is actually at 5.9 YPC. What I'm saying is that if they lost Gilman and they rolled with Rocker, Wortham, and Fonoti, I think that in terms of talent that's basically comparable to what the Cats would be working with if they lost Davis and were rolling with Jones, Coon, and White. But the fact is that neither team has lost their starting RB, which is excellent, and I believe Gilman is the best back in the BSC, so I give the edge at the position to UM. If Gilman was a Cat, he would be leading the nation in rushing.

Now where we agree is on how screwed UM would be if Wortham got injured. From what I've seen of the Griz this year, he is the straw that stirs the drink for them. I have not seen a single offensive player this season at the FCS level who is better than he is.

I was looking at conference only stats.

[MrGoodKat]

I was looking at conference only stats.

Oh got it.

[PapaG]

One more interesting comparison.

The Cats and Griz have both played 5 BSC games, they have both played 2 games at home and 3 on the road, and their collective opponents' records are an identical 18-27.

In those conference games, the Cats are +177 points in scoring differential, good for 35.4 PPG. Their smallest margin was the 17 point victory over CP.

In their conference games, the Griz are +79 points in scoring differential, good for 15.8 PPG. Their smallest margin was their 4 point victory over ISU.

Here's an offense/defense breakdown in BSC play.

The Griz have scored 198 points in five conference games, good for 39.6 PPG.

They have allowed 129 points in those same games, or 25.8 PPG.

The Cats have scored 228 points in five conference games, good for 45.6 PPG.

They have allowed 51 points in those same games, or 10.2 PPG.

Here's why this is interesting to me:

A lot of the discourse around the Cat/Griz comparison so far this season has focused on SOS. Griz fans have obviously (and fairly) highlighted that UM is undefeated and the Cats have two losses. Cat fans have responded that they've played a tougher schedule. The response to that (again, I think fairly) is that the stronger SOS is basically based on the Oregon game, which is basically irrelevant.

So my suggestion is throw the OOC play out altogether and just focus on what's truly comparable: conference play. The SOS in-conference between the Cats and the Griz is literally identical. And what it reveals is that MSU is a substantially better performing team. That's even true in regards to offense, where the narrative in the media right now definitely favors the Griz. The Cats are almost a touchdown better and then obviously on the defensive side, they're 2.5 times better in terms of points allowed.

I think this is getting lost in a lot of the coverage of the team teams.

The Oregon game isn’t “irrelevant” when Gris fans are using W/L record as a point of comparison.

UM hasn’t played anyone like Oregon, or even SDSU when they were healthy, and that’s really what matters in the SOS argument if W/L record matters.

The “best” team UM played is probably UND, and they just got beaten by a 4-loss team.

[cats2506]

MoneyMike is more of a Taco type player.

Gillman/Rocker vs Davis/Jones

?????? vs Coon/White

[cats2506]

I wonder what Sammy thinks

[MrGoodKat]

The Oregon game isn’t “irrelevant” when Gris fans are using W/L record as a point of comparison.

UM hasn’t played anyone like Oregon, or even SDSU when they were healthy, and that’s really what matters in the SOS argument if W/L record matters.

The “best” team UM played is probably UND, and they just got beaten by a 4-loss team.

Sure, it's relevant in the sense that it accounts for one of the losses and therefore the Cats only have one loss that really deserves to be considered.

However, it's irrelevant in the sense that it won't be counted against MSU in ranking or seeding and therefore it doesn't make sense to cite it for the sake of SOS resume building.

I'll put it this way:

MSU's resume is not and should not be harmed by the fact that they have a road loss to a highly ranked FBS team.

Also, MSU's resume is not and should not be enhanced by the fact that they went to Eugene and got their doors blown off.

So throw out that loss for the Cats and throw out the Central Washington game for the Griz. Where does that leave them? With essentially comparable schedules:

-Both teams have played 5 conference games, 2 at home and 3 on the road; the collective records of the two opponent sets are identical at 18-27.

-Both teams have played good MVFC team at home that has recently fallen on hard times.

-Both teams have played two weak FCS teams OOC-- Mercyhurst and USD for the Cats; ISU and SH for the Griz.

So the SOS in my mind is basically identical. The difference is that the Griz won their game against UND narrowly and the Cats lost their game against SDSU narrowly. So I have no problem with the Griz being ranked ahead of MSU.

However, I also have no doubt that the Cats are the better team given how much better they've performed in conference play.

[OldGriz]

The Oregon game isn’t “irrelevant” when Gris fans are using W/L record as a point of comparison.

UM hasn’t played anyone like Oregon, or even SDSU when they were healthy, and that’s really what matters in the SOS argument if W/L record matters.

The “best” team UM played is probably UND, and they just got beaten by a 4-loss team.

Sure, it's relevant in the sense that it accounts for one of the losses and therefore the Cats only have one loss that really deserves to be considered.

However, it's irrelevant in the sense that it won't be counted against MSU in ranking or seeding and therefore it doesn't make sense to cite it for the sake of SOS resume building.

I'll put it this way:

MSU's resume is not and should not be harmed by the fact that they have a road loss to a highly ranked FBS team.

Also, MSU's resume is not and should not be enhanced by the fact that they went to Eugene and got their doors blown off.

So throw out that loss for the Cats and throw out the Central Washington game for the Griz. Where does that leave them? With essentially comparable schedules:

-Both teams have played 5 conference games, 2 at home and 3 on the road; the collective records of the two opponent sets are identical at 18-27.

-Both teams have played good MVFC team at home that has recently fallen on hard times.

-Both teams have played two weak FCS teams OOC-- Mercyhurst and USD for the Cats; ISU and SH for the Griz.

So the SOS in my mind is basically identical. The difference is that the Griz won their game against UND narrowly and the Cats lost their game against SDSU narrowly. So I have no problem with the Griz being ranked ahead of MSU.

However, I also have no doubt that the Cats are the better team given how much better they've performed in conference play.

It’s going to be a fun rivalry game. It’s interesting that you have no doubt, yet the FCS coaches and the FCS writers who cover the game professionally see the Griz as the better team.

[BelligerentBobcat]

The Oregon game isn’t “irrelevant” when Gris fans are using W/L record as a point of comparison.

UM hasn’t played anyone like Oregon, or even SDSU when they were healthy, and that’s really what matters in the SOS argument if W/L record matters.

The “best” team UM played is probably UND, and they just got beaten by a 4-loss team.

Sure, it's relevant in the sense that it accounts for one of the losses and therefore the Cats only have one loss that really deserves to be considered.

However, it's irrelevant in the sense that it won't be counted against MSU in ranking or seeding and therefore it doesn't make sense to cite it for the sake of SOS resume building.

I'll put it this way:

MSU's resume is not and should not be harmed by the fact that they have a road loss to a highly ranked FBS team.

Also, MSU's resume is not and should not be enhanced by the fact that they went to Eugene and got their doors blown off.

So throw out that loss for the Cats and throw out the Central Washington game for the Griz. Where does that leave them? With essentially comparable schedules:

-Both teams have played 5 conference games, 2 at home and 3 on the road; the collective records of the two opponent sets are identical at 18-27.

-Both teams have played good MVFC team at home that has recently fallen on hard times.

-Both teams have played two weak FCS teams OOC-- Mercyhurst and USD for the Cats; ISU and SH for the Griz.

So the SOS in my mind is basically identical. The difference is that the Griz won their game against UND narrowly and the Cats lost their game against SDSU narrowly. So I have no problem with the Griz being ranked ahead of MSU.

However, I also have no doubt that the Cats are the better team given how much better they've performed in conference play.

It’s going to be a fun rivalry game. It’s interesting that you have no doubt, yet the FCS coaches and the FCS writers who cover the game professionally see the Griz as the better team.

What does Sammy Akem think? Or does he not count?

[wbtfg]

The Oregon game isn’t “irrelevant” when Gris fans are using W/L record as a point of comparison.

UM hasn’t played anyone like Oregon, or even SDSU when they were healthy, and that’s really what matters in the SOS argument if W/L record matters.

The “best” team UM played is probably UND, and they just got beaten by a 4-loss team.

Sure, it's relevant in the sense that it accounts for one of the losses and therefore the Cats only have one loss that really deserves to be considered.

However, it's irrelevant in the sense that it won't be counted against MSU in ranking or seeding and therefore it doesn't make sense to cite it for the sake of SOS resume building.

I'll put it this way:

MSU's resume is not and should not be harmed by the fact that they have a road loss to a highly ranked FBS team.

Also, MSU's resume is not and should not be enhanced by the fact that they went to Eugene and got their doors blown off.

So throw out that loss for the Cats and throw out the Central Washington game for the Griz. Where does that leave them? With essentially comparable schedules:

-Both teams have played 5 conference games, 2 at home and 3 on the road; the collective records of the two opponent sets are identical at 18-27.

-Both teams have played good MVFC team at home that has recently fallen on hard times.

-Both teams have played two weak FCS teams OOC-- Mercyhurst and USD for the Cats; ISU and SH for the Griz.

So the SOS in my mind is basically identical. The difference is that the Griz won their game against UND narrowly and the Cats lost their game against SDSU narrowly. So I have no problem with the Griz being ranked ahead of MSU.

However, I also have no doubt that the Cats are the better team given how much better they've performed in conference play.

It’s going to be a fun rivalry game. It’s interesting that you have no doubt, yet the FCS coaches and the FCS writers who cover the game professionally see the Griz as the better team.

What does Sammy Akem think? Or does he not count?

Clearly Sammy Akem is a GINO.....

[MrGoodKat]

It’s going to be a fun rivalry game. It’s interesting that you have no doubt, yet the FCS coaches and the FCS writers who cover the game professionally see the Griz as the better team.

Agree; it will be fun! I think the Griz deserve to be favored in the game given that they are genuinely a good team and they're at home (home field has been a massive factor for five straight Brawls now). It would be great to see a competitive game again.

I have no doubt of which team is currently better because of how dramatically superior the Cats have been in conference play, as I've supported in several posts in this thread. I think manyactually agree with me, while still ranking the Griz ahead of the Cats in the polls (e.g. Sammy Akem has consistently said he thinks MSU is the 2nd best team in the FCS). This is because there's a difference between what I think is true based on the eye test and the stats and what the actual results of games have been. The bottom line is that Montana won Vs. UND and the Cats lost Vs. SDSU. Thus, if I was someone who creates FCS rankings or playoff seedings, I would also have the Griz ahead of the Cats today despite the fact that I believe the Cats are actually the better football team.

The good news is that the Cats can demonstrate on the field if I'm correct. If they manage to win in Missoula and break this streak of blow-outs in the Brawl, it will firmly indicate that they really have been the better team all along despite being ranked behind the Griz due to resume.