The NC Officiating in 4 Images

[ZebraCat]

The spot being bad isn't the biggest problem on this play, if it's the one I'm thinking of. ISU's first drive of the third quarter. No. 4 WR Lord, didn't have the ball secured when he landed out of bounds. I believe it should have been an incomplete pass.

Great job on the photos.

I thought the same thing about that catch watching the replay of the game. Looked like the hit and the ground both caused a small bobble. There should have been about 5 reviews in this game, 4 of them should have been for thr spot of the ball. If the NFL can replay assist to move a ball 1/4 of a yard, we should be able to review a spot for a 1/2 yard to a yard, and catch no catch on a bobble.

The BSC reviewed a play on a catch in the NAU game for a long time and ruled it incomplete. It was pass to Long and he lost it out of bounds clearly. They took all day to review that, but they don't even review this one.

The reviews at the FCS level are ridiculously inconsistent.

[coloradocat]

It's the NC. Why not get a Big 10 or SEC crew?

That's what I was thinking. There are only two other crews in the entire country working this week. Get somebody good.

Good way to lose officials, which no sport at any level can a afford.

I guess but are the FBS officials not under the jurisdiction of the NCAA? Earlier this season there was discussion about the impact of the old PAC teams moving to the BIG 10 depleting the ref pool because the BSC shares with the western FBS conferences. That makes it seem like they are all kind of jumbled together to some degree.

The NCAA should ensure their championships are conducted at a championship level. I assume we already didn't get the best FCS crew in the country since they weren't BSC or MVFC due to the teams playing.

For football, each conference, both FBS and FCS, has a director of officials, and/or an assigner. The director may do both, especially at the FCS level. Each FCS conference is "partnered" with at least one FBS conference for development and advancement of officials. In the past, the BSC worked with the MWC and PAC. Officials that the MWC and PAC identified as future officials would start in the BSC and work as alternates for crews in the MWC after two of three years. The same was true of MWC officials working in the PAC. That will probably be full go again next season. The PAC will get the best of those officials that the Big 10 doesn't use very often, the next best will be MWC officials, and the rest will remain in the BSC. Yes, the officials all fall under NCAA jurisdiction, but they are all lead and directed by their own leaders. The FBS leaders would be sending a strong and poor message to their FCS counterparts if they jumped in and took the championship game.

The championship game also rotates through each conference that accepts a bid to the playoffs. There are some stipulations, which is why you will never see a Pioneer crew on a title game. It was the Southland's year, and apparently they suck as a conference.

Thanks for the info. I think I just got the origin of your username.

[RefWatch]

Yelling hut or clapping is also 100% a disconcerting act, especially near the LOS. The above claim that it's not by butt man is false.

100%. Disconcerting Signals was (correctly) called during a game this post-season for a defender clapping. I think it was the Yale game.

[ZebraCat]

It's the NC. Why not get a Big 10 or SEC crew?

That's what I was thinking. There are only two other crews in the entire country working this week. Get somebody good.

Good way to lose officials, which no sport at any level can a afford.

I guess but are the FBS officials not under the jurisdiction of the NCAA? Earlier this season there was discussion about the impact of the old PAC teams moving to the BIG 10 depleting the ref pool because the BSC shares with the western FBS conferences. That makes it seem like they are all kind of jumbled together to some degree.

The NCAA should ensure their championships are conducted at a championship level. I assume we already didn't get the best FCS crew in the country since they weren't BSC or MVFC due to the teams playing.

For football, each conference, both FBS and FCS, has a director of officials, and/or an assigner. The director may do both, especially at the FCS level. Each FCS conference is "partnered" with at least one FBS conference for development and advancement of officials. In the past, the BSC worked with the MWC and PAC. Officials that the MWC and PAC identified as future officials would start in the BSC and work as alternates for crews in the MWC after two of three years. The same was true of MWC officials working in the PAC. That will probably be full go again next season. The PAC will get the best of those officials that the Big 10 doesn't use very often, the next best will be MWC officials, and the rest will remain in the BSC. Yes, the officials all fall under NCAA jurisdiction, but they are all lead and directed by their own leaders. The FBS leaders would be sending a strong and poor message to their FCS counterparts if they jumped in and took the championship game.

The championship game also rotates through each conference that accepts a bid to the playoffs. There are some stipulations, which is why you will never see a Pioneer crew on a title game. It was the Southland's year, and apparently they suck as a conference.

Thanks for the info. I think I just got the origin of your username.

[Bobcat4Ever]

Unless a coach or player says otherwise, nobody will convince me they weren't simulating our snap count. We probably score on one more drive in the second half at least without all the false starts and the game never gets close. That clown crew being unwilling to call it on them would not shock me in the least.

Remember the Yale game? They were doing illegal things to get us to jump. They were warned or penalized at least once but were very successful with it. It was discussed on this board. Illinois St. obviously picked up right where Yale left off. The game film is out there for everyone to study. If they overlooked that ability to exploit our line, then they weren’t doing their job. They seemed to have it down pat. It concerns me that our coaching staff was not able to figure it out or coach our guys around it. They’ve played in noise a whole lot — that’s not it. Something was going on.

[technoCat]

Unless a coach or player says otherwise, nobody will convince me they weren't simulating our snap count. We probably score on one more drive in the second half at least without all the false starts and the game never gets close. That clown crew being unwilling to call it on them would not shock me in the least.

Remember the Yale game? They were doing illegal things to get us to jump. They were warned or penalized at least once but were very successful with it. It was discussed on this board. Illinois St. obviously picked up right where Yale left off. The game film is out there for everyone to study. If they overlooked that ability to exploit our line, then they weren’t doing their job. They seemed to have it down pat. It concerns me that our coaching staff was not able to figure it out or coach our guys around it. They’ve played in noise a whole lot — that’s not it. Something was going on.

It was SFA. 12 penalties for 100 yards.

[Prodigal Cat]

The championship game also rotates through each conference that accepts a bid to the playoffs. There are some stipulations, which is why you will never see a Pioneer crew on a title game. It was the Southland's year, and apparently they suck as a conference.

And because its been MVFC vs BSC or at least has mostly been for the better part of a decade those 2 conference officials are forced out. And as much as we gripe about BSC officials they do get big time (for FCS) game experience during the season. Some of the other officials aren't used to the crowds, speed, physicality.

[ZebraCat]

The championship game also rotates through each conference that accepts a bid to the playoffs. There are some stipulations, which is why you will never see a Pioneer crew on a title game. It was the Southland's year, and apparently they suck as a conference.

And because its been MVFC vs BSC or at least has mostly been for the better part of a decade those 2 conference officials are forced out. And as much as we gripe about BSC officials they do get big time (for FCS) game experience during the season. Some of the other officials aren't used to the crowds, speed, physicality.

100% The MVFC hasn't had a title game since at least 2010. They'll be up whenever their isn't a MVFC team in the game.

[GoldstoneCat]

Unless a coach or player says otherwise, nobody will convince me they weren't simulating our snap count. We probably score on one more drive in the second half at least without all the false starts and the game never gets close. That clown crew being unwilling to call it on them would not shock me in the least.

Remember the Yale game? They were doing illegal things to get us to jump. They were warned or penalized at least once but were very successful with it. It was discussed on this board. Illinois St. obviously picked up right where Yale left off. The game film is out there for everyone to study. If they overlooked that ability to exploit our line, then they weren’t doing their job. They seemed to have it down pat. It concerns me that our coaching staff was not able to figure it out or coach our guys around it. They’ve played in noise a whole lot — that’s not it. Something was going on.

It was not noise I agree. And I don't think you can assume the coaches didn't coach them on it or try to adjust. They can't make them stay set. Eventually guys just have to figure it out. I think the in game adjustment as someone said earlier was to go quicker.

[Cataholic]

It's the NC. Why not get a Big 10 or SEC crew?

That's what I was thinking. There are only two other crews in the entire country working this week. Get somebody good.

Good way to lose officials, which no sport at any level can a afford.

I guess but are the FBS officials not under the jurisdiction of the NCAA? Earlier this season there was discussion about the impact of the old PAC teams moving to the BIG 10 depleting the ref pool because the BSC shares with the western FBS conferences. That makes it seem like they are all kind of jumbled together to some degree.

The NCAA should ensure their championships are conducted at a championship level. I assume we already didn't get the best FCS crew in the country since they weren't BSC or MVFC due to the teams playing.

For football, each conference, both FBS and FCS, has a director of officials, and/or an assigner. The director may do both, especially at the FCS level. Each FCS conference is "partnered" with at least one FBS conference for development and advancement of officials. In the past, the BSC worked with the MWC and PAC. Officials that the MWC and PAC identified as future officials would start in the BSC and work as alternates for crews in the MWC after two of three years. The same was true of MWC officials working in the PAC. That will probably be full go again next season. The PAC will get the best of those officials that the Big 10 doesn't use very often, the next best will be MWC officials, and the rest will remain in the BSC. Yes, the officials all fall under NCAA jurisdiction, but they are all lead and directed by their own leaders. The FBS leaders would be sending a strong and poor message to their FCS counterparts if they jumped in and took the championship game.

The championship game also rotates through each conference that accepts a bid to the playoffs. There are some stipulations, which is why you will never see a Pioneer crew on a title game. It was the Southland's year, and apparently they suck as a conference.

Your explanation further validates the use of FBS officials for the FCS championship. If FCS officials are basically being trained in the FCS and then promoted to FBS, there is zero reasoning to use a lower quality referee for a championship game. And I highly doubt crews will quit between they don’t a chance to do a title game when they are hoping for a promotion. Damn, I cannot imagine a Big Sky crew doing a title game. Woof!!

[liqud360]

Unless a coach or player says otherwise, nobody will convince me they weren't simulating our snap count. We probably score on one more drive in the second half at least without all the false starts and the game never gets close. That clown crew being unwilling to call it on them would not shock me in the least.

Remember the Yale game? They were doing illegal things to get us to jump. They were warned or penalized at least once but were very successful with it. It was discussed on this board. Illinois St. obviously picked up right where Yale left off. The game film is out there for everyone to study. If they overlooked that ability to exploit our line, then they weren’t doing their job. They seemed to have it down pat. It concerns me that our coaching staff was not able to figure it out or coach our guys around it. They’ve played in noise a whole lot — that’s not it. Something was going on.

It was SFA. 12 penalties for 100 yards.

Why weren't our guys complaining to the refs or coaching staff about this? I didnt notice much objection to the penalties by our guys when they were flagged...but I could only see what the ESPN cameras allowed me to see. I did catch the Redbirds coach really yucking it up with one officials on the sideline and even shook his hand. Realistically for a good explanation of a call I am guessing?

[Cataholic]

Can someone please help me understand if the ISU receivers should have been called for “pick” plays? Isn’t it illegal for a WR to block a cornerback with the intent of getting another WR open prior to a pass? ISU did this all game long.

[asstastic]

Unless a coach or player says otherwise, nobody will convince me they weren't simulating our snap count. We probably score on one more drive in the second half at least without all the false starts and the game never gets close. That clown crew being unwilling to call it on them would not shock me in the least.

Watching last night, the majority of the false starts resulted in reaction to well-timed DL shifts.

If that's all ISU was doing, it's totally within the rules and it's on MSU to clean that up.

If they were shifting and also simulating the count audibly, that's a penalty and a strategy that deserves zero respect.

But the reality is that it's a penalty that isn't called very often, so it's still incumbent on the MSU offensive line to be able to hold their water.

100% what I told my buddy...they were doing the quick DL shift..

It’s not going to be a DT clapping or yelling hut. It is defined as “exaggerated, excessive, or unnecessary movement simulating action at the snap” that happens simultaneous to a shift.

Excessive hand movement
Head Bob
Lunging forward
Safety clapping


The key is it’s choreographed simultaneously with a line shift.

I looked at the false starts again, and there's only a single one that would meet this definition (only going by video, can't really separate out audio). The punt in the 4th quarter with 3 minutes left is the one. The LJ calls false start on a gunner, #3. The ISU player lined up across from him had simulated the snap by lunging like he's going to block and then falling back. This 100% falls under that rule, and a HUGE miss from the LJ. ISU #1 also gets in #3's face after the call, right next to the LJ. No reason for it other than to trash talk, but is completely ignored by the LJ.

Not surprising, because the LJ was the worst oifficial on the field Monday night.

Yelling hut or clapping is also 100% a disconcerting act, especially near the LOS. The above claim that it's not by butt man is false.

Haha, I like that. I meant it’s not always as obvious a hand clap, at the line of scrimmage, or someone yelling hut. A lot of times, from what I reviewed, it’s hard to catch.

[ZebraCat]

Unless a coach or player says otherwise, nobody will convince me they weren't simulating our snap count. We probably score on one more drive in the second half at least without all the false starts and the game never gets close. That clown crew being unwilling to call it on them would not shock me in the least.

Watching last night, the majority of the false starts resulted in reaction to well-timed DL shifts.

If that's all ISU was doing, it's totally within the rules and it's on MSU to clean that up.

If they were shifting and also simulating the count audibly, that's a penalty and a strategy that deserves zero respect.

But the reality is that it's a penalty that isn't called very often, so it's still incumbent on the MSU offensive line to be able to hold their water.

100% what I told my buddy...they were doing the quick DL shift..

It’s not going to be a DT clapping or yelling hut. It is defined as “exaggerated, excessive, or unnecessary movement simulating action at the snap” that happens simultaneous to a shift.

Excessive hand movement
Head Bob
Lunging forward
Safety clapping


The key is it’s choreographed simultaneously with a line shift.

I looked at the false starts again, and there's only a single one that would meet this definition (only going by video, can't really separate out audio). The punt in the 4th quarter with 3 minutes left is the one. The LJ calls false start on a gunner, #3. The ISU player lined up across from him had simulated the snap by lunging like he's going to block and then falling back. This 100% falls under that rule, and a HUGE miss from the LJ. ISU #1 also gets in #3's face after the call, right next to the LJ. No reason for it other than to trash talk, but is completely ignored by the LJ.

Not surprising, because the LJ was the worst oifficial on the field Monday night.

Yelling hut or clapping is also 100% a disconcerting act, especially near the LOS. The above claim that it's not by butt man is false.

Haha, I like that. I meant it’s not always as obvious a hand clap, at the line of scrimmage, or someone yelling hut. A lot of times, from what I reviewed, it’s hard to catch.

Gotcha. Yes, those are hard to catch. The biggest issue for me, is that they didn't even have a discussion about it, not once.

[RyeCat]

During both the Yale game and particularly the SFA game, you can see our players pointing and complaining to the refs about the attempts by the defense to mimic the snap cadence. I thought I saw the offense object at least once in a similar fashion but it wasn’t as noticeable. As the game ref said, JT likely was having a bad night.

[ZebraCat]

It's the NC. Why not get a Big 10 or SEC crew?

That's what I was thinking. There are only two other crews in the entire country working this week. Get somebody good.

Good way to lose officials, which no sport at any level can a afford.

I guess but are the FBS officials not under the jurisdiction of the NCAA? Earlier this season there was discussion about the impact of the old PAC teams moving to the BIG 10 depleting the ref pool because the BSC shares with the western FBS conferences. That makes it seem like they are all kind of jumbled together to some degree.

The NCAA should ensure their championships are conducted at a championship level. I assume we already didn't get the best FCS crew in the country since they weren't BSC or MVFC due to the teams playing.

For football, each conference, both FBS and FCS, has a director of officials, and/or an assigner. The director may do both, especially at the FCS level. Each FCS conference is "partnered" with at least one FBS conference for development and advancement of officials. In the past, the BSC worked with the MWC and PAC. Officials that the MWC and PAC identified as future officials would start in the BSC and work as alternates for crews in the MWC after two of three years. The same was true of MWC officials working in the PAC. That will probably be full go again next season. The PAC will get the best of those officials that the Big 10 doesn't use very often, the next best will be MWC officials, and the rest will remain in the BSC. Yes, the officials all fall under NCAA jurisdiction, but they are all lead and directed by their own leaders. The FBS leaders would be sending a strong and poor message to their FCS counterparts if they jumped in and took the championship game.

The championship game also rotates through each conference that accepts a bid to the playoffs. There are some stipulations, which is why you will never see a Pioneer crew on a title game. It was the Southland's year, and apparently they suck as a conference.

Your explanation further validates the use of FBS officials for the FCS championship. If FCS officials are basically being trained in the FCS and then promoted to FBS, there is zero reasoning to use a lower quality referee for a championship game. And I highly doubt crews will quit between they don’t a chance to do a title game when they are hoping for a promotion. Damn, I cannot imagine a Big Sky crew doing a title game. Woof!!

Yes and no. Not everybody in the FCS is in the FCS because they aren't good enough to be FBS. If they got into officiating in their late 20s or early 30s and started in HS, then got into FCS, their chances are really slim of getting to the FBS, especially P4. There are a fair number of older officials in the BSC that had kids activities take priority over their officiating careers, and when those kids left home, their officiating journey could only go so far because of their age. Up until 5 or 6 years ago, the BSC, and officiating in general was a lot of who you know and how you look. Athetlic, well built officials was all anybody above FCS wanted. Even at the FCS level that was pretty important. I know a number of guys that work the Frontier Conference that would be some of the best in the BSC, but their kids and jobs take precedence over their officiating aspirations. It's a lot easier to devote a Saturday to officiating than Friday-Sunday.

I would put Kelly Holman's crew (Cat/Griz 1.0) on a national championship game over any crew we saw in the playoffs. There are absolutely some really bad BSC crews, but the two or three best are better than most of what I've seen in the rest of the country.

[Cataholic]

It's the NC. Why not get a Big 10 or SEC crew?

That's what I was thinking. There are only two other crews in the entire country working this week. Get somebody good.

Good way to lose officials, which no sport at any level can a afford.

I guess but are the FBS officials not under the jurisdiction of the NCAA? Earlier this season there was discussion about the impact of the old PAC teams moving to the BIG 10 depleting the ref pool because the BSC shares with the western FBS conferences. That makes it seem like they are all kind of jumbled together to some degree.

The NCAA should ensure their championships are conducted at a championship level. I assume we already didn't get the best FCS crew in the country since they weren't BSC or MVFC due to the teams playing.

For football, each conference, both FBS and FCS, has a director of officials, and/or an assigner. The director may do both, especially at the FCS level. Each FCS conference is "partnered" with at least one FBS conference for development and advancement of officials. In the past, the BSC worked with the MWC and PAC. Officials that the MWC and PAC identified as future officials would start in the BSC and work as alternates for crews in the MWC after two of three years. The same was true of MWC officials working in the PAC. That will probably be full go again next season. The PAC will get the best of those officials that the Big 10 doesn't use very often, the next best will be MWC officials, and the rest will remain in the BSC. Yes, the officials all fall under NCAA jurisdiction, but they are all lead and directed by their own leaders. The FBS leaders would be sending a strong and poor message to their FCS counterparts if they jumped in and took the championship game.

The championship game also rotates through each conference that accepts a bid to the playoffs. There are some stipulations, which is why you will never see a Pioneer crew on a title game. It was the Southland's year, and apparently they suck as a conference.

Your explanation further validates the use of FBS officials for the FCS championship. If FCS officials are basically being trained in the FCS and then promoted to FBS, there is zero reasoning to use a lower quality referee for a championship game. And I highly doubt crews will quit between they don’t a chance to do a title game when they are hoping for a promotion. Damn, I cannot imagine a Big Sky crew doing a title game. Woof!!

Yes and no. Not everybody in the FCS is in the FCS because they aren't good enough to be FBS. If they got into officiating in their late 20s or early 30s and started in HS, then got into FCS, their chances are really slim of getting to the FBS, especially P4. There are a fair number of older officials in the BSC that had kids activities take priority over their officiating careers, and when those kids left home, their officiating journey could only go so far because of their age. Up until 5 or 6 years ago, the BSC, and officiating in general was a lot of who you know and how you look. Athetlic, well built officials was all anybody above FCS wanted. Even at the FCS level that was pretty important. I know a number of guys that work the Frontier Conference that would be some of the best in the BSC, but their kids and jobs take precedence over their officiating aspirations. It's a lot easier to devote a Saturday to officiating than Friday-Sunday.

I would put Kelly Holman's crew (Cat/Griz 1.0) on a national championship game over any crew we saw in the playoffs. There are absolutely some really bad BSC crews, but the two or three best are better than most of what I've seen in the rest of the country.

Valid points. But go with the proven well trained and well paid FBS guys. Giving each conference a chance on a rotation is for JV. If the NCAA wants the FCS to be a marketable commodity, go with the proven and well trained crew.

[Steve Steverson]

There must have been a point of emphasis in the last few years to minimize measurements. It seldom ever happens these days. Likely part of the desire to shorten games for TV. If it’s close they will give it to the offense. It’s happened all year and we have been on both sides of it a bunch.

[Bobcat4Ever]

There must have been a point of emphasis in the last few years to minimize measurements. It seldom ever happens these days. Likely part of the desire to shorten games for TV. If it’s close they will give it to the offense. It’s happened all year and we have been on both sides of it a bunch.

Interesting. And you’re right, measurements have almost followed the dodo. But how about some better technology? If laser lines can build buildings, I’ll bet they can spot a football. Laser technology is now well-known and inexpensive. Build a system into the “sticks”, maybe lengthen them a little. I can see where this could solve the “mirroring” issue. Then mark a ball placement on that line.

C’mon MSU — as a graduate of MSU’s Civil Engineering program, this would make a great student challenge. Incorporate it into one of the national design contests and I’ll bet they’d come up with a usable solution. There’s a big market out there.

[tetoncat]

Well, I thought their QB picked up the first down late in the 4th that forced the field goal try. So, maybe it all worked out???

He was definitely short on replay. But wasn't that the RB?