The Gap is Getting Wider

[coloradocat]

Was UM historically the "prestigious" school because it had a law school and journalism, the two majors most likely to talk about themselves, or was there something more to it?

[rfischer94]

Serious changes? They went 11-1 and are seeded third in the tournament. Sure, we've won 7 of 9 but it hardly feels like the SS Missoula is sinking fast, as much as I wish it were.

I agree with you. The idea that MSU is leaving UM in the dust is wishful thinking. I WISH it was true, although Ty Gregorak said the UM streak was actually very bad for the "rivalry." While I don't pull for UM I don't hink they are going away.

We were the better team this year but we only won by three points. It was a dang close nerve wracking ballgame. I was hoping for a decisive win, but it turned out to be a nailbiter.

Their men's basketball team has pretty much owned us. Our women's team has done great, but we barely beat them by one point last year in the Big Sky finals.

I was on hand at the Brick the night we had 5000 fans on hand dressed in gold and UM kicked our volleyball team out of the Brick.

I do think both the MSU institution and the athletics dept. has the better momentum, no question about it. But I don't see how you can say there is a big gap at this point anyway.

Curious on your comment on gris MBB “owning us”. Since the Covid year it’s Cats with 4 wins and 3 championships…while gris have 5 wins and 1 championship. True last year we lost twice to them by 7 points one game and 4 points in other. We can disagree on what “owning us” means but I call it pretty even and competitive.

And the WBB beat them 3 times last year!!! By 1 point at their house and 1 point at the tourney. And even losing two starters in Bozeman we gave them a BB clinic…last shot would have broken the century barrier if it went in. To me that’s kinda like tearing their hearts out! I just wished we could have played them again!!! (Bobcats up 7 wins to 2 during that time frame)

Yep Volleyball lost in our house 1-3. Might recall Bobcats won in their house 3-2 in front of their 3000 fans.

I’m too lazy to go back to tabulate track over last few years.

Not to mention that the lady gris haven't won in Bozeman in a decade.

[MrGoodKat]

MSU is definitely on top right now, but this is probably the best that the "other team" has ever been. What's fun right now is that both programs are good.

I do think that Schmidt hits the nail on the head though-- the Cats are keeping their edge by winning in-state recruiting and keeping their lines strong. The Griz don't get the same caliber of talent from Montana right now, don't develop them (or anyone) as well, and they have been weaker on the OL and DL for a long time now.

You heard Vigen allude to the importance of this philosophy in his signing day presser. He said this class represents their desire to building from the inside-out in two ways: with Montana kids (10 of the 20 signees are from MT) and by prioritizing the LOS (8 of the 20 are OL or DL).

This is why I've continually said that whoever they hire to replace Vigen, it needs to be someone who can continue to dominate in-state recruiting.

[GoldstoneCat]

Serious changes? They went 11-1 and are seeded third in the tournament. Sure, we've won 7 of 9 but it hardly feels like the SS Missoula is sinking fast, as much as I wish it were.

I agree with you. The idea that MSU is leaving UM in the dust is wishful thinking. I WISH it was true, although Ty Gregorak said the UM streak was actually very bad for the "rivalry." While I don't pull for UM I don't hink they are going away.

We were the better team this year but we only won by three points. It was a dang close nerve wracking ballgame. I was hoping for a decisive win, but it turned out to be a nailbiter.

Their men's basketball team has pretty much owned us. Our women's team has done great, but we barely beat them by one point last year in the Big Sky finals.

I was on hand at the Brick the night we had 5000 fans on hand dressed in gold and UM kicked our volleyball team out of the Brick.

I do think both the MSU institution and the athletics dept. has the better momentum, no question about it. But I don't see how you can say there is a big gap at this point anyway.

Huh? I don't think we watched the same game. The Cats went up by 3 on Dowlers INT return, then extend the lead to 10 for most of the 4th. Gris never had possession in a position to score a go ahead in the 4th. (Could have tied it with the FG)

It certainly wasn't a blowout, but it wasn't like the Pandas ever had a chance to go ahead in the 4th. Cats easily could have put another TD on the board in the 4th quarter, but chose not to.

I like to think that it's because Vigen knows that as long as the final score looks closer than it is, UM will keep Booby around until the end of time. Which is great for the Cats. Booby is just good enough to make the playoffs year in and year out, but isnt likely to be in contention for deep playoff runs. Hes like the Rob Ash of Missoula.

The longer Vigen keeps him in Missoula by toying with the gris fans, the better off we are.

? They had the ball down 24-21 and drove into the red zone, or close, got knocked back a couple yards and we blocked the kick. They were definitely in position to take the lead in the 4th.
That said, I do agree with your point in general, I think they played their best game and we played... fine. And still beat them over there.

They were in a position to TIE, not win. And Cats utterly dominated for the last 8 min or is of the 4th.

In all reality it was a 2 score game (in other words, not particularly close) but Vigen chose to kneel down.

First and ten on our 20 down 3, in my view, is in position to take the lead. They didn't, but they were there.

[Travelingcat]

Was UM historically the "prestigious" school because it had a law school and journalism, the two majors most likely to talk about themselves, or was there something more to it?

I think UM was really the flagship school in the State. In almost every state, the "University of" is older and more prestigious than the "State University", which is a land grant college, usually with an ag focus. Liberal arts are at the core, historically, of every university (Still true at all of the ivies where you cannot get a professional degree of any kind as an undergrad) and UM was the liberal arts school. Obviously, with the rise of the importance of engineering, and the fact that "State U"s tend to have bigger engineer departments than flagships, there's been a rebalancing of prestige happening in a lot of states, not just Montana. But the biggest strength of a serious research university is its grad school and UM's is still larger than ours, even as our undergrad dwarfs them.

Long-term, I'd absolutely bet on MSU to become clearly the premier academic nstitution in this state. I think we are clearly in the lead today and our advantage is likely to multiply, especially financially, as some of our more financially successful grads enter their prime giving years.

[RUACAT]

Personally it saddens me a little, I think the rivalry is more than just a big deal to Montana (the state) fans, I think it is hugely beneficial to have another team to push each other. I see signs that I interpret as a move towards FBS from MSU, I am unsure that UM is able to do that right now, if it happens I am sure that they will do everything they can to move together.

I agree with the initial part. However, if Cats go on a 30-0 run against the gris, I would be fine with it. We have the "hugely beneficial" other team to push us, they go by the Bizon and even the JackRabbits.

If the Cats streak ever gets to 15, UM will find a way to cancel the following Brawl because the streak is the only thing they've got to hang their hat on right now.

[seataccat]

But the biggest strength of a serious research university is its grad school and UM's is still larger than ours, even as our undergrad dwarfs them.

Not sure where you're getting your information but MSU is larger and higher ranked research university which is largely what graduate programs are measured by?

[onceacat]

Serious changes? They went 11-1 and are seeded third in the tournament. Sure, we've won 7 of 9 but it hardly feels like the SS Missoula is sinking fast, as much as I wish it were.

I agree with you. The idea that MSU is leaving UM in the dust is wishful thinking. I WISH it was true, although Ty Gregorak said the UM streak was actually very bad for the "rivalry." While I don't pull for UM I don't hink they are going away.

We were the better team this year but we only won by three points. It was a dang close nerve wracking ballgame. I was hoping for a decisive win, but it turned out to be a nailbiter.

Their men's basketball team has pretty much owned us. Our women's team has done great, but we barely beat them by one point last year in the Big Sky finals.

I was on hand at the Brick the night we had 5000 fans on hand dressed in gold and UM kicked our volleyball team out of the Brick.

I do think both the MSU institution and the athletics dept. has the better momentum, no question about it. But I don't see how you can say there is a big gap at this point anyway.

Huh? I don't think we watched the same game. The Cats went up by 3 on Dowlers INT return, then extend the lead to 10 for most of the 4th. Gris never had possession in a position to score a go ahead in the 4th. (Could have tied it with the FG)

It certainly wasn't a blowout, but it wasn't like the Pandas ever had a chance to go ahead in the 4th. Cats easily could have put another TD on the board in the 4th quarter, but chose not to.

I like to think that it's because Vigen knows that as long as the final score looks closer than it is, UM will keep Booby around until the end of time. Which is great for the Cats. Booby is just good enough to make the playoffs year in and year out, but isnt likely to be in contention for deep playoff runs. Hes like the Rob Ash of Missoula.

The longer Vigen keeps him in Missoula by toying with the gris fans, the better off we are.

? They had the ball down 24-21 and drove into the red zone, or close, got knocked back a couple yards and we blocked the kick. They were definitely in position to take the lead in the 4th.
That said, I do agree with your point in general, I think they played their best game and we played... fine. And still beat them over there.

That’s a TIE. Not a lead. Not in a position to go ahead. In position to TIE.

It’s a lot like the Lions Cowboys game last night. Cowboys kept pushing to try to make in close. And it certainly wasn’t a blowout.

But when your MO is to ‘drag them into deep water’ and you play with a lead for the entire last 10 minutes, it’s not a nail biter.

I think we are all nervous for that entire stretch because KAY/Gilman//Wortham are explosive and can score in a hurry.

But that was a pretty resounding beatdown from the Dowler pick to the final cannon. It clearly wasn’t t as close as the score made it appear.

[MSU01]

But the biggest strength of a serious research university is its grad school and UM's is still larger than ours, even as our undergrad dwarfs them.

Not sure where you're getting your information but MSU is larger and higher ranked research university which is largely what graduate programs are measured by?

UM has the larger graduate school in terms of enrollment numbers, but as you correctly point out there are other ways to measure the overall quality of a graduate school and its programs.

[onceacat]

Serious changes? They went 11-1 and are seeded third in the tournament. Sure, we've won 7 of 9 but it hardly feels like the SS Missoula is sinking fast, as much as I wish it were.

I agree with you. The idea that MSU is leaving UM in the dust is wishful thinking. I WISH it was true, although Ty Gregorak said the UM streak was actually very bad for the "rivalry." While I don't pull for UM I don't hink they are going away.

We were the better team this year but we only won by three points. It was a dang close nerve wracking ballgame. I was hoping for a decisive win, but it turned out to be a nailbiter.

Their men's basketball team has pretty much owned us. Our women's team has done great, but we barely beat them by one point last year in the Big Sky finals.

I was on hand at the Brick the night we had 5000 fans on hand dressed in gold and UM kicked our volleyball team out of the Brick.

I do think both the MSU institution and the athletics dept. has the better momentum, no question about it. But I don't see how you can say there is a big gap at this point anyway.

Huh? I don't think we watched the same game. The Cats went up by 3 on Dowlers INT return, then extend the lead to 10 for most of the 4th. Gris never had possession in a position to score a go ahead in the 4th. (Could have tied it with the FG)

It certainly wasn't a blowout, but it wasn't like the Pandas ever had a chance to go ahead in the 4th. Cats easily could have put another TD on the board in the 4th quarter, but chose not to.

I like to think that it's because Vigen knows that as long as the final score looks closer than it is, UM will keep Booby around until the end of time. Which is great for the Cats. Booby is just good enough to make the playoffs year in and year out, but isnt likely to be in contention for deep playoff runs. Hes like the Rob Ash of Missoula.

The longer Vigen keeps him in Missoula by toying with the gris fans, the better off we are.

? They had the ball down 24-21 and drove into the red zone, or close, got knocked back a couple yards and we blocked the kick. They were definitely in position to take the lead in the 4th.
That said, I do agree with your point in general, I think they played their best game and we played... fine. And still beat them over there.

They were in a position to TIE, not win. And Cats utterly dominated for the last 8 min or is of the 4th.

In all reality it was a 2 score game (in other words, not particularly close) but Vigen chose to kneel down.

First and ten on our 20 down 3, in my view, is in position to take the lead. They didn't, but they were there.

ONE play inside the 20 at 14:58 left in the 4th down 3. And they never got that close again.

According to ESPN gamecast, Cats had a 75% win probability at that snap. And that’s the closest they got in the 4th quarter, a 1 in 4 chance.

Not a blowout, but not a nail biter unless you a a Cat fan still trying to shake all the freak losses over the past few generations.

Like I’ve said before, if we replay this in Bozeman, the Cats are probably 10 point favorites.

[TomCat88]

It's not just football.

#BOTW Results
2024-25 Montana State 13, Montana 4
2023-24 Montana State 10, Montana 7
2022-23: Montana State 13, Montana 3
2021-22: Montana State 11, Montana 6
2020-21: Montana State 8, Montana 3
2019-20: Montana State 9, Montana 4
2018-19: Montana State 11, Montana 6
2017-18: Montana State 12, Montana 5
2016-17: Montana State 10, Montana 7
2015-16: Montana 12, Montana State 5
2014-15: Montana 9, Montana State 8
2013-14: Montana 14, Montana State 3

So basically our dominance has been when Leon has been AD.

I dont think we can overstate how important it was to move on from Peter Fields…..and Leon was the perfect hire.

MSU hasn't done too badly with their second choice AD and sixth choice football coach! Robin Selvig's retirement which allowed Coach Binford and the WBB program to tip the balance of the rivalry in their favor also has helped a lot.

I'm not saying that Selvig retiring didn't help MSU but it's worth noting that he wasn't winning as much over the last part of his career. Binford is a very good coach in her own right. UM was 7-1 over MSU the first four years of Binford vs Selvig, then 10-6 over the last seven. I believe MSU is 16-3 since he left. MSU is around 23-20 vs UM since Binford arrived.

His last seven years UM went 140-82 (63%); they were 725-204 prior to that (78%). In BSC/MTN play 85-39 (69%); they were 370-70 (84%) prior to that. They went to 19 NCAA/AIAW tourneys (64%) and won the BSC/MTN 21 (70%) times over the first 30 years. 2 BSC titles (28%) and 3 NCAAs (42%) over the final seven years.

[OutlanderCatAlum]

Was UM historically the "prestigious" school because it had a law school and journalism, the two majors most likely to talk about themselves, or was there something more to it?

I think UM was really the flagship school in the State. In almost every state, the "University of" is older and more prestigious than the "State University", which is a land grant college, usually with an ag focus. Liberal arts are at the core, historically, of every university (Still true at all of the ivies where you cannot get a professional degree of any kind as an undergrad) and UM was the liberal arts school. Obviously, with the rise of the importance of engineering, and the fact that "State U"s tend to have bigger engineer departments than flagships, there's been a rebalancing of prestige happening in a lot of states, not just Montana. But the biggest strength of a serious research university is its grad school and UM's is still larger than ours, even as our undergrad dwarfs them.

Long-term, I'd absolutely bet on MSU to become clearly the premier academic nstitution in this state. I think we are clearly in the lead today and our advantage is likely to multiply, especially financially, as some of our more financially successful grads enter their prime giving years.

It's interesting that a check of each university's archives shows that the 1893 legislature authorized them about three days apart in February of that year, with UM apparently that margin older. MSU actually began instruction in April, while in appears that UM started classes nearly two years later.

Also interesting is that UM was officially named "Montana State University" from 1913 until 1965, at which time Montana State College (Bozeman) was given that name.

U of M Name Timeline"

Name Timeline:
1893 – June 30, 1913 – The University of Montana, Missoula
July 1, 1913 – June 30, 1965 – Montana State University
July 1, 1965 – The University of Montana, Missoula Montana"

[From the National Register of Historic Places Registration Form – The University of Montana Historic District (Boundary Increase)]

Just food for thought.

[RockyBearCat]

So, any wins prior to 1965 are Bobcats???

[Travelingcat]

Was UM historically the "prestigious" school because it had a law school and journalism, the two majors most likely to talk about themselves, or was there something more to it?

I think UM was really the flagship school in the State. In almost every state, the "University of" is older and more prestigious than the "State University", which is a land grant college, usually with an ag focus. Liberal arts are at the core, historically, of every university (Still true at all of the ivies where you cannot get a professional degree of any kind as an undergrad) and UM was the liberal arts school. Obviously, with the rise of the importance of engineering, and the fact that "State U"s tend to have bigger engineer departments than flagships, there's been a rebalancing of prestige happening in a lot of states, not just Montana. But the biggest strength of a serious research university is its grad school and UM's is still larger than ours, even as our undergrad dwarfs them.

Long-term, I'd absolutely bet on MSU to become clearly the premier academic nstitution in this state. I think we are clearly in the lead today and our advantage is likely to multiply, especially financially, as some of our more financially successful grads enter their prime giving years.

It's interesting that a check of each university's archives shows that the 1893 legislature authorized them about three days apart in February of that year, with UM apparently that margin older. MSU actually began instruction in April, while in appears that UM started classes nearly two years later.

Also interesting is that UM was officially named "Montana State University" from 1913 until 1965, at which time Montana State College (Bozeman) was given that name.

U of M Name Timeline"

Name Timeline:
1893 – June 30, 1913 – The University of Montana, Missoula
July 1, 1913 – June 30, 1965 – Montana State University
July 1, 1965 – The University of Montana, Missoula Montana"

[From the National Register of Historic Places Registration Form – The University of Montana Historic District (Boundary Increase)]

Just food for thought.

Yes, this is very unusual, reflecting the fact that we are such a young state. Where I grew up in the Southeast U.S. the "University of" was founding in 1789 and the "X State University" wasn't founded until 1887. That's probably on the higher end of spreads but far more typical than ours.

Also the OP who mentioned our research $ are higher is absolutely correct, reflecting the fact that we are more science and engineering focused and more $ flow there. But UM's overall grad school is still larger. Overall, probably a wash at the grad level, as opposed to the undergrad level where we have a huge lead

[cats2506]

Personally it saddens me a little, I think the rivalry is more than just a big deal to Montana (the state) fans, I think it is hugely beneficial to have another team to push each other. I see signs that I interpret as a move towards FBS from MSU, I am unsure that UM is able to do that right now, if it happens I am sure that they will do everything they can to move together.

I agree with the initial part. However, if Cats go on a 30-0 run against the gris, I would be fine with it. We have the "hugely beneficial" other team to push us, they go by the Bizon and even the JackRabbits.

Not so fast my friend

[RockyBearCat]

Personally it saddens me a little, I think the rivalry is more than just a big deal to Montana (the state) fans, I think it is hugely beneficial to have another team to push each other. I see signs that I interpret as a move towards FBS from MSU, I am unsure that UM is able to do that right now, if it happens I am sure that they will do everything they can to move together.

I agree with the initial part. However, if Cats go on a 30-0 run against the gris, I would be fine with it. We have the "hugely beneficial" other team to push us, they go by the Bizon and even the JackRabbits.

Not so fast my friend

Touche

[catatac]

Serious changes? They went 11-1 and are seeded third in the tournament. Sure, we've won 7 of 9 but it hardly feels like the SS Missoula is sinking fast, as much as I wish it were.

They beat up on bad teams, struggled with average teams, and barely beat or lost to the good teams they faced. I don't think they're a sinking ship, I just don't think they're on the same level as the Cats, in all those areas I mentioned above. I would be absolutely shocked if they made it to Nashville. If the Cats make it, I won't be shocked at all.

I think Saturday proved there is a significant gap between MSU and UM, due to all the things I mentioned in the OP. Vigen understands what it takes to be a championship FCS program today, Hauck either doesn't, or doesn't have the means to get there.

[MTnative]

It's not just football.

#BOTW Results
2024-25 Montana State 13, Montana 4
2023-24 Montana State 10, Montana 7
2022-23: Montana State 13, Montana 3
2021-22: Montana State 11, Montana 6
2020-21: Montana State 8, Montana 3
2019-20: Montana State 9, Montana 4
2018-19: Montana State 11, Montana 6
2017-18: Montana State 12, Montana 5
2016-17: Montana State 10, Montana 7
2015-16: Montana 12, Montana State 5
2014-15: Montana 9, Montana State 8
2013-14: Montana 14, Montana State 3

Our track and field, and cross country teams have really leveled up also.
I don’t think this gets near enough attention as it should…
I like this streak .
Also, Peter Fields was terrible. Good riddance.

Cross country has produced some pretty high caliber athletes and competitors in the last few years. That program has reached new heights, really cool to see “peripheral” sports doing so well here.

Fields was a cancer. And so was his wife. The “do you know who I am” line was dropped on a family member when Mrs Fields was at a function. Full of themselves, and really for no reason at all given the low level achievements he oversaw.

[imacat]

It's not just football.

#BOTW Results
2024-25 Montana State 13, Montana 4
2023-24 Montana State 10, Montana 7
2022-23: Montana State 13, Montana 3
2021-22: Montana State 11, Montana 6
2020-21: Montana State 8, Montana 3
2019-20: Montana State 9, Montana 4
2018-19: Montana State 11, Montana 6
2017-18: Montana State 12, Montana 5
2016-17: Montana State 10, Montana 7
2015-16: Montana 12, Montana State 5
2014-15: Montana 9, Montana State 8
2013-14: Montana 14, Montana State 3

Our track and field, and cross country teams have really leveled up also.
I don’t think this gets near enough attention as it should…
I like this streak .
Also, Peter Fields was terrible. Good riddance.

Cross country has produced some pretty high caliber athletes and competitors in the last few years. That program has reached new heights, really cool to see “peripheral” sports doing so well here.

Fields was a cancer. And so was his wife. The “do you know who I am” line was dropped on a family member when Mrs Fields was at a function. Full of themselves, and really for no reason at all given the low level achievements he oversaw.

I am not a Fields fan, but he did what he was hired to do. That was to get the athletic department on a strong financial footing. When Peter took over, the department was bleeding red. He turned that around.
There is no doubt Leon is a significant upgrade.

[MrGoodKat]

I will say for UM, in regard to football, this is the best that the 2nd team has been during a period of dominance for the other. In the past, one team has been great and the other has been mediocre to bad. The Griz are very good while still being clearly a tier below the Cats.