O-Line

[gtapp]

I know we don’t have replacements for Wehr and Moore but the talent still looks very good from my perspective. Why has their performance dropped off this year. Is it the shuffling around (which happened last year also) or a larger drop off in talent? How is our depth?

[GoldstoneCat]

I know we don’t have replacements for Wehr and Moore but the talent still looks very good from my perspective. Why has their performance dropped off this year. Is it the shuffling around (which happened last year also) or a larger drop off in talent? How is our depth?

In my uneducated opinion (this is a message board after all) we're replacing actual proven all-Americans with young guys who haven't played that much. Vim will be able to speak to it better than I but Zimmer is pretty raw and underwhelming with his run blocking. We need mastel back, as he is a better, more accomplished player than Carr at this point. But I think when you have to replace that caliber of talent with young guys who haven't played much, or much together, it's going to look like this for awhile. I expect the line will be much better on November 1 than September 1.

[BornBobcat2000]

How much of a factor is the turnover in OL coaches? In past years it has seemed to be a seamless transition, but I wonder if it will take some time for the coaching to settle in also

[technoCat]

The oline made lots of mistakes early last year during their shakeup as well. They rest of the offense was able to overcome that. Much harder opponents this year. I agree, I think we will be much more solid come November. The talent is there.

[mslacatfan]

-OL shuffle, players playing out of position
-new offense to learn
-some young guys finding their way (Zimmer, Carr)
-losing some all time great talents with Wehr and Moore.
-no more Tommy mellott (he made everyone else look better (OL included)

I think they are plenty talented and will continue to progress throughout the season. Getting Mastel back will definitely help as well.

[nanacat]

The oline made lots of mistakes early last year during their shakeup as well. They rest of the offense was able to overcome that. Much harder opponents this year. I agree, I think we will be much more solid come November. The talent is there.

I've been wondering about this being a large factor. Young guys, position shake up, against really tough opponents the first 2 games. Losing Tommy is also a factor. He was such a leader, along with others like Grebe, Ortt, etc. Not to say there aren't leaders now, but sometimes it takes time to gel. Last year's team only dealt with a few newbies in comparison. I agree the talent is there, it's just going to take some time.

[abozemanbobcat]

The Oline is dealing with a lot of change this year and its still early. Losing vets in the room such as Perkins, Sain, and Wehr can affect a lot. Also losing Coach Johnson is a lot as well. From what I know a lot of the guys really liked Johnson and loved playing for him, so we're just seeing them live adjusting to Smith's style. It'll be good for them to get Mastel back because he brings experience to an already In carr and zimmer. We'll be good as long as this OC knows to RUN THE DAMN BALL!

[NewBobCatGuy]

The Oline is dealing with a lot of change this year and its still early. Losing vets in the room such as Perkins, Sain, and Wehr can affect a lot. Also losing Coach Johnson is a lot as well. From what I know a lot of the guys really liked Johnson and loved playing for him, so we're just seeing them live adjusting to Smith's style. It'll be good for them to get Mastel back because he brings experience to an already In carr and zimmer. We'll be good as long as this OC knows to RUN THE DAMN BALL!

Of course, you will need the 5 best OL athletes to execute that mission. Dont think that nut has been cracked? Definitely there are a few 2 deep guys that may be a solution for a solid run offense. Shifting positions among existing OL 1's has not solved that problem IMO over this 3 game stretch.

[TomCat88]

Aside from one drive the #1 offense has moved the ball really well on its last 9 possessions. Of those five were TDs, one was a FG, one was an INT, one was a punt and one Victory Formation. The INT was a good drive that appears to have ended on a bad no call.

It's kind of hard for me to find fault in the OL when it doesn't have a runner like Mellott. And when you take the QBs out of the mix three RBs (Davis, Coon and White) are getting 6.5ish, and one (Jones) is getting 3.1. That's just a statistical explanation and should in no way be taken as a slight on Jones as there could be numerous reasons why he is at 3.1. Could be that Mellott was a key for his type of game? Could just be bad timing?

I do know this: if he or any other RB is going to get 10 carries a game and only get 3 yards a pop, MSU's chances of winning a BSC or national title will diminish greatly.

[BelligerentBobcat]

Aside from one drive the #1 offense has moved the ball really well on its last 9 possessions. Of those five were TDs, one was a FG, one was an INT, one was a punt and one Victory Formation. The INT was a good drive that appears to have ended on a bad no call.

It's kind of hard for me to find fault in the OL when it doesn't have a runner like Mellott. And when you take the QBs out of the mix three RBs (Davis, Coon and White) are getting 6.5ish, and one (Jones) is getting 3.1. That's just a statistical explanation and should in no way be taken as a slight on Jones as there could be numerous reasons why he is at 3.1. Could be that Mellott was a key for his type of game? Could just be bad timing?

I do know this: if he or any other RB is going to get 10 carries a game and only get 3 yards a pop, MSU's chances of winning a BSC or national title will diminish greatly.

It really isn’t all that different than what Jones did last year, he just hasn’t popped a big run yet. He was a lot of short gains with a few big ones mixed in there.

[FA_Q_M]

I think the biggest reason our oline has "struggled" thus far is pretty simple: No Tommy.

Tommy kept defenses on their heals which allowed our oline to dig in and impose their will. This year, those huge plays haven't presented themselves yet.

Make no mistake; this is still a GREAT oline. Think they just need more games/reps to gel. Wouldn't shock me if that "statement" game come more sooner than later.

[TomCat88]

Aside from one drive the #1 offense has moved the ball really well on its last 9 possessions. Of those five were TDs, one was a FG, one was an INT, one was a punt and one Victory Formation. The INT was a good drive that appears to have ended on a bad no call.

It's kind of hard for me to find fault in the OL when it doesn't have a runner like Mellott. And when you take the QBs out of the mix three RBs (Davis, Coon and White) are getting 6.5ish, and one (Jones) is getting 3.1. That's just a statistical explanation and should in no way be taken as a slight on Jones as there could be numerous reasons why he is at 3.1. Could be that Mellott was a key for his type of game? Could just be bad timing?

I do know this: if he or any other RB is going to get 10 carries a game and only get 3 yards a pop, MSU's chances of winning a BSC or national title will diminish greatly.

It really isn’t all that different than what Jones did last year, he just hasn’t popped a big run yet. He was a lot of short gains with a few big ones mixed in there.

This is true and stats are funny that way and he did have a few games where he only had around 3.5 ypc. He did have a 24 or 25 yarder vs San Diego. He's had 43(?) carries this year and just that one big one. I'm not sure what his ratio of 20+ carries was last season. He had two 90+ runs last year and you can't count on too many of those. That was 1.0 of his 6.4 per carry last year. If he breaks off an 80-yarder on his next carry, it'll move him to 5.1 ypc. The timing of his big runs last year was very good. UNM, UM, UTM, Idaho playoff game.

To prove your point:
Team - Avg. (long run)
UNM - 9.8; (93)
UT - 5.1
Maine - 15.8 (40)
MH - 3.8 (noteworthy)
ISU - 5.1
UNC - 3.5
Idaho - 3.5
PSU - DNP
EW - 6.1 (20)
SAC - 31.8 (78)
UCD - 3.1
UM - 7.9 (88)
UTM - 6.4 (30)
Idaho - 4.1 (35)
USD - 3.7
NDSU - 3.5

[Mtcatfan]

I think the biggest reason our oline has "struggled" thus far is pretty simple: No Tommy.

Tommy kept defenses on their heals which allowed our oline to dig in and impose their will. This year, those huge plays haven't presented themselves yet.

Make no mistake; this is still a GREAT oline. Think they just need more games/reps to gel. Wouldn't shock me if that "statement" game come more sooner than later.

Saturday!!

[tetoncat]

Aside from one drive the #1 offense has moved the ball really well on its last 9 possessions. Of those five were TDs, one was a FG, one was an INT, one was a punt and one Victory Formation. The INT was a good drive that appears to have ended on a bad no call.

It's kind of hard for me to find fault in the OL when it doesn't have a runner like Mellott. And when you take the QBs out of the mix three RBs (Davis, Coon and White) are getting 6.5ish, and one (Jones) is getting 3.1. That's just a statistical explanation and should in no way be taken as a slight on Jones as there could be numerous reasons why he is at 3.1. Could be that Mellott was a key for his type of game? Could just be bad timing?

I do know this: if he or any other RB is going to get 10 carries a game and only get 3 yards a pop, MSU's chances of winning a BSC or national title will diminish greatly.

It really isn’t all that different than what Jones did last year, he just hasn’t popped a big run yet. He was a lot of short gains with a few big ones mixed in there.

This is true and stats are funny that way and he did have a few games where he only had around 3.5 ypc. He did have a 24 or 25 yarder vs San Diego. He's had 43(?) carries this year and just that one big one. I'm not sure what his ratio of 20+ carries was last season. He had two 90+ runs last year and you can't count on too many of those. That was 1.0 of his 6.4 per carry last year. If he breaks off an 80-yarder on his next carry, it'll move him to 5.1 ypc. The timing of his big runs last year was very good. UNM, UM, UTM, Idaho playoff game.

To prove your point:
Team - Avg. (long run)
UNM - 9.8; (93)
UT - 5.1
Maine - 15.8 (40)
MH - 3.8 (noteworthy)
ISU - 5.1
UNC - 3.5
Idaho - 3.5
PSU - DNP
EW - 6.1 (20)
SAC - 31.8 (78)
UCD - 3.1
UM - 7.9 (88)
UTM - 6.4 (30)
Idaho - 4.1 (35)
USD - 3.7
NDSU - 3.5

Jones was not featured back most games in 2024. Many big runs were against worn down DL

[TomCat88]

Aside from one drive the #1 offense has moved the ball really well on its last 9 possessions. Of those five were TDs, one was a FG, one was an INT, one was a punt and one Victory Formation. The INT was a good drive that appears to have ended on a bad no call.

It's kind of hard for me to find fault in the OL when it doesn't have a runner like Mellott. And when you take the QBs out of the mix three RBs (Davis, Coon and White) are getting 6.5ish, and one (Jones) is getting 3.1. That's just a statistical explanation and should in no way be taken as a slight on Jones as there could be numerous reasons why he is at 3.1. Could be that Mellott was a key for his type of game? Could just be bad timing?

I do know this: if he or any other RB is going to get 10 carries a game and only get 3 yards a pop, MSU's chances of winning a BSC or national title will diminish greatly.

It really isn’t all that different than what Jones did last year, he just hasn’t popped a big run yet. He was a lot of short gains with a few big ones mixed in there.

This is true and stats are funny that way and he did have a few games where he only had around 3.5 ypc. He did have a 24 or 25 yarder vs San Diego. He's had 43(?) carries this year and just that one big one. I'm not sure what his ratio of 20+ carries was last season. He had two 90+ runs last year and you can't count on too many of those. That was 1.0 of his 6.4 per carry last year. If he breaks off an 80-yarder on his next carry, it'll move him to 5.1 ypc. The timing of his big runs last year was very good. UNM, UM, UTM, Idaho playoff game.

To prove your point:
Team - Avg. (long run)
UNM - 9.8; (93)
UT - 5.1
Maine - 15.8 (40)
MH - 3.8 (noteworthy)
ISU - 5.1
UNC - 3.5
Idaho - 3.5
PSU - DNP
EW - 6.1 (20)
SAC - 31.8 (78)
UCD - 3.1
UM - 7.9 (88)
UTM - 6.4 (30)
Idaho - 4.1 (35)
USD - 3.7
NDSU - 3.5

Jones was not featured back most games in 2024. Many big runs were against worn down DL

True. This was an interesting discussion.

[Helcat72]

Last year linebackers had to worry about Tommy pulling the ball and running. This year they can stay put in their gaps. Result: not as many holes up the middle. Jones has done some damage outside though.

[VimSince03]

Last year linebackers had to worry about Tommy pulling the ball and running. This year they can stay put in their gaps. Result: not as many holes up the middle. Jones has done some damage outside though.

Simple assessment is we were noticeably better running the ball on Saturday. Wasn't even close in my opinion after watching the tape. Burke made a noticeable difference and getting us different looks from different backs also made an impact. We used three Oline arrangements on Saturday:

1st was Zimmer, Mastel, Reed, Fleischmann, Jefferson
2nd was Zimmer, Mastel, Reed, Carr, Fleischmann
3rd was Jefferson, Mastel, Reed, Carr, Flesichmann

We only got two possessions of each and Vigen was visibly upset by that in the post-game presser as they really wanted extended tape on these groups. I think our strongest RUNNING unit is the third group. I think our best PASSING unit is the 1st. I don't like the 2nd because, in my opinion, Jefferson is too talented in both run and pass that he needs to be on the field. Let's just put it this way, I saw Carr/Fleischmann drive block together on the right side for the first time and it looked wonderful to these eyes. I just think we need Titan to be at right tackle and Carr is our best run blocker left at guard in that scenario so then your deciding between the value of Zimmer or Jefferson at LT. Zimmer is getting better every game and is so impressive as a pass-blocker but Jefferson is better at both overall at this point in the season. My vote is we move forward with #3 and we take a deeper run-first identity and let Lamson cook in the play-action game as he's comfortable on the intermediate game. He took two deep shots in the deep game on Saturday and he frankly should of just ate those instead of throwing 50/50 balls to our two shortest receivers despite their playmaking ability. Its a process with Lamson and he needs to continue to improve in his decision making. My feeling is Sterbick is trying to make it relatively easy in his passing game. That has kind of always been his MO as a playcaller but his QB is trying to do too much right now when he doesn't have to.

[Slackjaw]

Last year linebackers had to worry about Tommy pulling the ball and running. This year they can stay put in their gaps. Result: not as many holes up the middle. Jones has done some damage outside though.

Simple assessment is we were noticeably better running the ball on Saturday. Wasn't even close in my opinion after watching the tape. Burke made a noticeable difference and getting us different looks from different backs also made an impact. We used three Oline arrangements on Saturday:

1st was Zimmer, Mastel, Reed, Fleischmann, Jefferson
2nd was Zimmer, Mastel, Reed, Carr, Fleischmann
3rd was Jefferson, Mastel, Reed, Carr, Flesichmann

We only got two possessions of each and Vigen was visibly upset by that in the post-game presser as they really wanted extended tape on these groups. I think our strongest RUNNING unit is the third group. I think our best PASSING unit is the 1st. I don't like the 2nd because, in my opinion, Jefferson is too talented in both run and pass that he needs to be on the field. Let's just put it this way, I saw Carr/Fleischmann drive block together on the right side for the first time and it looked wonderful to these eyes. I just think we need Titan to be at right tackle and Carr is our best run blocker left at guard in that scenario so then your deciding between the value of Zimmer or Jefferson at LT. Zimmer is getting better every game and is so impressive as a pass-blocker but Jefferson is better at both overall at this point in the season. My vote is we move forward with #3 and we take a deeper run-first identity and let Lamson cook in the play-action game as he's comfortable on the intermediate game. He took two deep shots in the deep game on Saturday and he frankly should of just ate those instead of throwing 50/50 balls to our two shortest receivers despite their playmaking ability. Its a process with Lamson and he needs to continue to improve in his decision making. My feeling is Sterbick is trying to make it relatively easy in his passing game. That has kind of always been his MO as a playcaller but his QB is trying to do too much right now when he doesn't have to.

I agree with you on using the 3rd unit listed above, as it sets us up for the run game the best. My only concern is that while Carr seems to have good push when engaged, his foot speed gets him beat against quicker interior linemen. That said, I'm always going to be a run-first guy, and I believe Zimmer is just too light in the lower half right now. He's going to be a really good one, but he just needs more time.

On to Lamson — put simply, no defense is afraid of him at the moment, not in the run game or the pass game.

In the run game: There's nothing stopping LBs from flowing, and there's very little to no backside hesitation. This is creating problems for our RBs. Defenses are okay with him pulling it and getting his five yards and the occasional 20.

In the pass game: Sterbick is feeling boxed in because Lamson won't stretch the field unless he calls plays like the one where the interception occurred (Yankee concept). Lamson seems to play extremely conservatively — he'll throw the under mesh/shallow routes all day, or take off running, but he won't push the ball downfield. This forces the coordinator to call two-receiver/max-protect concepts in an attempt to stretch the defense. Unfortunately, the play was covered well and the ball shouldn't have been thrown (easy read).

Part of me wonders how much of this passing game is coordinator vs. player. We just don't have the seam game that we had last year. Admittedly, I still need to go to a game in person to see if those routes are being called and just not executed.

With a QB who's not the same threat we're used to in the run game, and a passing game focused only on the short/intermediate, the run game will continue to struggle. The field is just too condensed. It needs to be stretched one way or the other — horizontally or vertically.

Things I would like to see:
1) Chance Wilson (easiest to implement, probably the hardest for the coaching staff to pull the trigger on)

2) More wide-split zone to take care of the backside and hope ILBs flow too hard (we do some IZ split, but I’m not sure I’ve seen WZ split)

3) More play-action off of #2 — the potential of this also helps hold backside flow

4) Use more jet motions/jet sweeps to cause hesitation (think Rovig days with Miller as coordinator)

[VimSince03]

Last year linebackers had to worry about Tommy pulling the ball and running. This year they can stay put in their gaps. Result: not as many holes up the middle. Jones has done some damage outside though.

Simple assessment is we were noticeably better running the ball on Saturday. Wasn't even close in my opinion after watching the tape. Burke made a noticeable difference and getting us different looks from different backs also made an impact. We used three Oline arrangements on Saturday:

1st was Zimmer, Mastel, Reed, Fleischmann, Jefferson
2nd was Zimmer, Mastel, Reed, Carr, Fleischmann
3rd was Jefferson, Mastel, Reed, Carr, Flesichmann

We only got two possessions of each and Vigen was visibly upset by that in the post-game presser as they really wanted extended tape on these groups. I think our strongest RUNNING unit is the third group. I think our best PASSING unit is the 1st. I don't like the 2nd because, in my opinion, Jefferson is too talented in both run and pass that he needs to be on the field. Let's just put it this way, I saw Carr/Fleischmann drive block together on the right side for the first time and it looked wonderful to these eyes. I just think we need Titan to be at right tackle and Carr is our best run blocker left at guard in that scenario so then your deciding between the value of Zimmer or Jefferson at LT. Zimmer is getting better every game and is so impressive as a pass-blocker but Jefferson is better at both overall at this point in the season. My vote is we move forward with #3 and we take a deeper run-first identity and let Lamson cook in the play-action game as he's comfortable on the intermediate game. He took two deep shots in the deep game on Saturday and he frankly should of just ate those instead of throwing 50/50 balls to our two shortest receivers despite their playmaking ability. Its a process with Lamson and he needs to continue to improve in his decision making. My feeling is Sterbick is trying to make it relatively easy in his passing game. That has kind of always been his MO as a playcaller but his QB is trying to do too much right now when he doesn't have to.

I agree with you on using the 3rd unit listed above, as it sets us up for the run game the best. My only concern is that while Carr seems to have good push when engaged, his foot speed gets him beat against quicker interior linemen. That said, I'm always going to be a run-first guy, and I believe Zimmer is just too light in the lower half right now. He's going to be a really good one, but he just needs more time.

On to Lamson — put simply, no defense is afraid of him at the moment, not in the run game or the pass game.

In the run game: There's nothing stopping LBs from flowing, and there's very little to no backside hesitation. This is creating problems for our RBs. Defenses are okay with him pulling it and getting his five yards and the occasional 20.

In the pass game: Sterbick is feeling boxed in because Lamson won't stretch the field unless he calls plays like the one where the interception occurred (Yankee concept). Lamson seems to play extremely conservatively — he'll throw the under mesh/shallow routes all day, or take off running, but he won't push the ball downfield. This forces the coordinator to call two-receiver/max-protect concepts in an attempt to stretch the defense. Unfortunately, the play was covered well and the ball shouldn't have been thrown (easy read).

Part of me wonders how much of this passing game is coordinator vs. player. We just don't have the seam game that we had last year. Admittedly, I still need to go to a game in person to see if those routes are being called and just not executed.

With a QB who's not the same threat we're used to in the run game, and a passing game focused only on the short/intermediate, the run game will continue to struggle. The field is just too condensed. It needs to be stretched one way or the other — horizontally or vertically.

Things I would like to see:
1) Chance Wilson (easiest to implement, probably the hardest for the coaching staff to pull the trigger on)

2) More wide-split zone to take care of the backside and hope ILBs flow too hard (we do some IZ split, but I’m not sure I’ve seen WZ split)

3) More play-action off of #2 — the potential of this also helps hold backside flow

4) Use more jet motions/jet sweeps to cause hesitation (think Rovig days with Miller as coordinator)

When we got good chunks and looks against South Dakota State, it was literally what you described here only it was more IZ. When we went WZ, too many unblocked players but our run game blocking was such a mess in that one between OL and TEs, wouldn't mind going back to it more. But yes absolutely need to pound the zone concepts and then pop PA off of it. For one it plays into the strengths of our athletic TEs and our receivers. Just feels like we are running too many concepts right now and, like I said after SDSU, just need to build off of what we are good at. I saw some of that in the first half against Mercyhurst but then the weirdness of the 2nd half happened after that pick.

I disagree on Chance...for now. They want to be balanced and throw the ball efficiently but if the season gets pushed to the brink...Vigen has shown he isn't afraid to pull the trigger on a refresh as we saw in 2021.

I do agree with you on Jet Sweeps but we already use motion to lighten the box and defenses just aren't biting.

Simply put, the goods are there we just need to go prove it. Sterbick and Lamson will need to figure it out sooner than later or else its time to throw a stick of dynamite on it.

[94VegasCat]

Watching Vigens presser today there seems to be some consternation about which line up is the one he feels most comfortable with. ewu is going to come to town and whip our assets if they don’t stockpile turds in a rapid hurry.

Lots of head scratching as a fan.